AoE Caps Discussion

ToRelax

If you want to make fights more tactical, reward the use of abilties that require more skill to use effectively - such as cone AoE vs PBAoE, as you mentioned.
In no way though does another change justify holding back an AoE cap on damage abilites - that is quite obviously the first thing one would change for more tactical gameplay, as you put it.

Bah, signature confirmed once again.

Efficient

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

Can we get a mod in here to tell Wrobel to stay on topic and talk about AOE caps?

lol. Best response vote in.

Jhunn

The more times I read his post, the more I can't believe he's being serious. This is beyond ridiculous.

Gyudan

Wrobel wrote: »

PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

Either that or a full bladder.

Ishammael

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

Thanks! We are passionate. You and your team at ZoS has crafted a really unique combat system which combines traditional MMO features with action game features. We like it, very much!

Wrobel wrote: »

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability.

This is the first time that I have ever read a developer state anything about the overarching vision for ESO PvP. I agree with this sentiment very much and would really like to hear a detailed very of where y'all want to take Cyrodiil and PvP in the future.

Wrobel wrote: »

Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Agree with this assessment and near-term strategy.

Wrobel wrote: »

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

Please recognize that siege weaponry is a very controversial topic and take care how you implement these changes. My personal stance is that using siege weapons is boring gameplay -- I want to control my character and use his 12 skills to fight people, not sit on siege.

Wrobel wrote: »

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game.

Great! Note that these skills have been overpowered for many months. In the future please consider making more frequent but smaller tweaks to balance in order to prevent toxic meta developments. This goes for all skills.

Wrobel wrote: »

Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing.

Excellent.

Wrobel wrote: »

In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Now this is something we have been waiting for for a long time. Very excited to hear this.

Wrobel wrote: »

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

This is the most important statement of your post -- please stick to this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

In order:
1. Cone abilities: agree completely with your assessment. Low hanging fruit are Jabs (both morphs) and Fiery Breath (both morphs).
2. This is my number two complaint about pvp right now (behind lag). Needs to be addressed. Ambush and Crit Rush are biggest offenders because they are so common.
3. This is a bug that needs to be fixed.
4. I thought this was fixed many patches ago?
5. If you change the skill to have an AoE cap I don't see this as a huge issue.
6. I don't think this is a huge deal.

Some other considerations:

1. Can you please provide some of your thoughts on AoE caps based on the discussions in this thread? Why are groups of greater than six players given artificial advantages?
2. Siege changes, AoE caps, and skill balance should be considered holistically, not on a 1v1 basis.
3. There are enormous imbalances in the CP system that are well documented. Are these being addressed in the next balance patch?
4. Cyrodiil is starving for new objectives: new towns, outposts, flags, etc. Any word on these efforts?
5. The Imperial City is not really part of the AvA battle. Any plans to add captureable districts that contribute to the score? What about removal of instant spawn? Will I ever be able to cross the bridges in Cyrodiil which lead to IC?

MrGrimey

@wrobel 's AOE caps

tinythinker

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

Merlight

Wrobel wrote: »

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective

Great, would love to see more fire-breathing DKs. No sarcasm, I really like watching them do it.

Wrobel wrote: »

• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Careful with this. Blackwater Blade doesn't need another nail-bomb in the coffin (by which I mean easy access to detonation).

Jhunn

tinythinker wrote: »

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It took him 12 days to reply. And he didn't mention AOE caps once. ONCE. ONCE. ONCE.

Why defend them when they're being incompetent.

Efficient

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

think bigger. please stay on topic.

Nafirian

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

Takllin

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

His explanation for the AoE caps confirms that he doesn't know the current state of Cyrodil. He thinks removing them will make people ball up and spam AoEs, yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. So yes, he doesn't get it.

The other changes he listed are good, but those changes are not AoE caps, which is the sole purpose of this thread last time I checked. If were gonna list off bugs to fix, why not go with these:

- Emp Siege Buff is Broken
- Bow Attacks go through Wings
- Unbreakable CCs(Fear, Reverberating Bash, etc.)
- Radiant Destruction is Dodgeable
- Jabs doesn't get 140% damage bonus against Shields

Etc.

Efficient

Takllin wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Thanks for the update on these.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive.

Also good to hear.

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

His explanation for the AoE caps confirms that he doesn't know the current state of Cyrodil. He thinks removing them will make people ball up and spam AoEs, yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. So yes, he doesn't get it.

The other changes he listed are good, but those changes are not AoE caps, which is the sole purpose of this thread last time I checked. If were gonna list off bugs to fix, why not go with these:

- Emp Siege Buff is Broken
- Bow Attacks go through Wings
- Unbreakable CCs(Fear, Reverberating Bash, etc.)
- Radiant Destruction is Dodgeable
- Jabs doesn't get 140% damage bonus against Shields

Etc.

There is no explanation for AoE caps at all actually. He has not talked about the TOPIC at all. We instead, are talking about ability changes to help solve problems. That's not what this thread is about. Everyone please stay on topic. MODS?!

tinythinker

Jhunn wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It took him 12 days to reply. And he didn't mention AOE caps once. ONCE. ONCE. ONCE.

Why defend them when they're being incompetent.

Defending? I'm just reading what was written. Taking in and reflecting on feedback beyond "REMOVE CAPS NAOW!!!11!!!" seems sensible to me. The "Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" comment nicely captures the parts of this thread that are counterproductive. If you've made your case for your point of view, great. It's been noted. If you think that the arguments against your point of view need to be addressed, great, plenty of room. Being rude accomplishes nothing constructive. Same goes for this:

Efficient wrote: »

think bigger. please stay on topic.

How people are not embarrassed behaving this way on a forum about a video game is beyond me. But, I'll leave you to it. I made my feedback early on, and I am happy to see more feedback from ZOS based on comments like mine, regardless of whether or not they agree with or implement everything I think should be changed.

Efficient

tinythinker wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

And for those saying Wrobel isn't commenting on or "getting" the feedback on AoE caps, did you *not* see the two comments he called out? Both of which talked about AoE caps but also why just voting for "removing" or "keeping" them isn't enough. It seems like people are upset because Wrobel hasn't announced yet which way he and his team are going, i.e., they haven't committed to the change those hurling insults want to happen. But ZOS isn't going to make a huge change overnight, so relax. Take a deep breath. Have a cookie

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It took him 12 days to reply. And he didn't mention AOE caps once. ONCE. ONCE. ONCE.

Why defend them when they're being incompetent.

Defending? I'm just reading what was written. Taking in and reflecting on feedback beyond "REMOVE CAPS NAOW!!!11!!!" seems sensible to me. The "Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" comment nicely captures the parts of this thread that are counterproductive. If you've made your case for your point of view, great. It's been noted. If you think that the arguments against your point of view need to be addressed, great, plenty of room. Being rude accomplishes nothing constructive. Same goes for this:

Efficient wrote: »

think bigger. please stay on topic.

How people are not embarrassed behaving this way on a forum about a video game is beyond me. But, I'll leave you to it. I made my feedback early on, and I am happy to see more feedback from ZOS based on comments like mine, regardless of whether or not they agree with or implement everything I think should be changed.

Its sarcasm, so apologies if you were offended, not my intention at all. Seriously though, he's not talking about AOE caps. He is talking about other solutions to fix in game issues. He is avoiding conversation around AOE caps directly. Its an important distinction.

Jhunn

Counterproductive to the discussion? Which discussion? Wrobel's not having an AOE caps discussion, he's dodging it. As I wrote on first page, nothing else than what @FENGRUSH wrote needs to be written. I'm not even sure Wrobel has read it

MrGrimey

@wrobel

Magicka det is essential for some builds, Single target damage is fine, it's the multiplier and AOE range that needed increasing. The single target damage is fine, especially considering that you either need to be close range with a 8 second det time or have a 1.8 second cast time.

Alcast

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

When you nerf Steeltornado, then Stamina Classes will be nerfed hard in PvE and not be viable anymore because now Stamina usually had less Single Target DPS but could be good because we had a bit more AOE dmg, with that nerf bb more AoE dmg. How do you plan to "bolster" that nerf for PvE?

tinythinker

Jhunn wrote: »

Counterproductive to the discussion? Which discussion? Wrobel's not having an AOE caps discussion, he's dodging it. As I wrote on first page, nothing else than what @FENGRUSH wrote needs to be written. I'm not even sure Wrobel has read it

Ahh, the bane of online communication. No worries. My baptism into message boards was a forum where harcore atheists and extreme religious fanatics battled it out over abortion, evolution, racism, genocide, etc. My cyberskin is usually pretty thick. I am not offended so much as baffled when I see certain comments (and take them at face value), and I broke my own rule about waiting 30 seconds before hitting "post reply" to make sure my own comment wouldn't be misconstrued.

But to follow your advice to stay on topic, I do think what Wrobel wrote is absolutely relevant to the caps discussion. I think they are afraid to screw things up even more, so, they are looking at feedback about what can be done instead of or in addition to removing or altering the AoE caps. I read what he wrote as "This is what we found helpful so far, more to come on the caps themselves." That is, they haven't decided on removing or changing caps, but they want to let us know they are listening, hence the little update today. I could be misreading his intent though, but people have been clamoring for him to post more. If he waits until a decision is made to make another comment people just get more impatient. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.

Jhunn

There's nothing to screw up more. PVP is in the worst state it's ever been in.

Efficient

tinythinker wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Counterproductive to the discussion? Which discussion? Wrobel's not having an AOE caps discussion, he's dodging it. As I wrote on first page, nothing else than what @FENGRUSH wrote needs to be written. I'm not even sure Wrobel has read it

Ahh, the bane of online communication. No worries. My baptism into message boards was a forum where harcore atheists and extreme religious fanatics battled it out over abortion, evolution, racism, genocide, etc. My cyberskin is usually pretty thick. I am not offended so much as baffled when I see certain comments (and take them at face value), and I broke my own rule about waiting 30 seconds before hitting "post reply" to make sure my own comment wouldn't be misconstrued.

But to follow your advice to stay on topic, I do think what Wrobel wrote is absolutely relevant to the caps discussion. I think they are afraid to screw things up even more, so, they are looking at feedback about what can be done instead of or in addition to removing or altering the AoE caps. I read what he wrote as "This is what we found helpful so far, more to come on the caps themselves." That is, they haven't decided on removing or changing caps, but they want to let us know they are listening, hence the little update today. I could be misreading his intent though, but people have been clamoring for him to post more. If he waits until a decision is made to make another comment people just get more impatient. It's kind of a lose-lose situation.

Let me give you my thoughts as to why its the complete opposite.

They never discussed AOE caps. The mechanic itself was added to the game.

Instead of removing a SINGLE change they implemented (which caused the meta, which causes the performance issues) ZOS is now focused on changing many different abilities to solve performance issues.

If I were ZOS, I would be more "afraid" to screw things up by changing MULTIPLE abilities rather then removing the SINGLE mechanic.

What would they be afraid of? ZOS has not TALKED about AOE CAPS and why they were added to the game. So we DONT KNOW. We have shifted directly to changing player abilities and siege.

We are "clamoring" for him to post more, because he does not post anything on the TOPIC of AOE caps.

AfkNinja

Seriously. @FENGRUSH summed up the issue on page one with a very detailed response, yet here we are with AOE caps not being removed again. ZOS prefers to use a band-aid on this wound instead of stitches.

WebBull

Wrobel wrote: »

In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

Sounds like melee ranged builds are going to be screwed.

skillastat

JUST REMOVE AOE CAPS ALREADY

Ezareth

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

@Wrobel

Personally, I think too many players are focusing on AoE Caps as the primary issue at hand. The problem is many fold and AoE Caps are only one contributing factor. Additionally I believe the copycat mentality is extremely strong in PvP and not many people are capable/willing to try new strategies approaches these days so issues become self-prophesying.

I think there needs to be some changes to deincentivize players from balling up beyond combat changes. Adjustments should be made to AP and Experience to become less rewarding for players to play in large groups.

I'm fine with these changes and a "wait and see approach". I think the Siege changes will help restrict some of the zerging yet I worry that by buffing them too much you risk creating keeps which are unassailable due to the way you can put siege down inside defending keeps so without other major changes a large zergball inside of a keep will actually *benefit* from these changes.

Steel Tornado was well past needing adjusting. I don't think it is really a large PvE nerf at all.

I agree with the changes to Magicka Detonation but I do not think it is going to be any sort of silver bullet to the problem.

I'm glad to see that you're looking at the Gap Closer stun issue and hopefully are able to find the right solution.

Thanks for the response. Please try to communicate more often than you have been. A bit of back and forth with the community would be appreciated.

Rana1014

Sigh. It baffles me that you guys keep dancing around the solution; the blobs are a direct consequence of AOE caps, which is a key contributor to the ridiculous lag. The changes to siege are a great step, the other things however, won't do a thing. Please fix the problem head on. @Wrobel

Remdale

I think you should all go back and read the posts Wrobel mentioned. They present some reasons why AoE caps shouldn't be removed or Wrobel's view of why they're in at least.

If you think about it, *[removing] AoE caps would lead to larger fights being over in even quicker and more devastating fashion, and they prefer there to be more to the fights than that. It's clear that he does want to address the lumping, I'm just concerned he isn't giving it enough weight.

I would be fine with a solution that left AoE caps in, as long as there is a solution. People are TIRED and frustrated to their limits with current stacking, as evidenced by this thread.

*edit

pema

whatever you do, start understanding that PVP and PVE are not the same. And many people are affected by al the ***** things you did to please PVP players.
The nerf in stam realy made stam builds and tanks suffer, and I still hate that.

Adjust stuff for cyro(and I guess IC) fine, but stop ruining the game for the rest of us!

DHale

Mr Wrobel thank you for the communication. I won't profess to speak for everyone else. I certainly appreciate it. I do think the changes for mentioned will be good for the game, that said I realize you are in charge of abilities so I say with all due respect just remove aoe caps we don't want them. I have subbed since April 2014. The players base has played lots of mmo that died from ppl leaving, don't give us reasons to go give us reasons to stay give us reasons to play and keep playing. We think it will improve the game we have to try. I try to run groups of 8 to 12 they bring 24. I run in a group of 24 they bring 48. I bring 48 they bring 80. It's not fun at that point. Five players with the same ability or couple of abilities are all on my death recount in almost every fight. It's crit charge into wrecking blow or steel tornados. The lag is bad so I only know they hit cause my screen turned blue... A telltale sign. Players running four and five thousand weapon damage every ability tears through my light armor like tissue paper. I put my fire ring and hit 20 vamps all balled together and do one fifth the damage than the steel tornado even with the 25 percent flame damage and how many did I hit for that damage, not even a quarter of the group. Not a good Zerg buster for sure.

Huckdabuck

Alcast wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs  Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.

When you nerf Steeltornado, then Stamina Classes will be nerfed hard in PvE and not be viable anymore because now Stamina usually had less Single Target DPS but could be good because we had a bit more AOE dmg, with that nerf bb more AoE dmg. How do you plan to "bolster" that nerf for PvE?

Hmmmmmm.....guess I missed the part where they nerfed the Wrecking Blow/Executioner and Poison Injection/Snipe combos in the patch notes? Steel tornado should be identical to Impulse. Small radius and NO execute.....there never should have been anything resembling Spin to Win.