Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

amiiegee · July 1

Abelon wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

stress test going well

Well, on PCNA, we had a queue of over 125 yesterday. Maybe you just got on at bad time. But PCNA has lots of people.
I'm sorry you are not happy with this campaign, but it will be over soon and hopefully it will help in the long run.

Its PS EU.

ForumBully wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

stress test going well

Well, on PCNA, we had a queue of over 125 yesterday. Maybe you just got on at bad time. But PCNA has lots of people.
I'm sorry you are not happy with this campaign, but it will be over soon and hopefully it will help in the long run.

They just want to complain. I played for 4 hours last night and saw the same people talking about how they quit, or we're going to IC, or we're gonna log off the entire time. Yet, they stayed to complain in zone.

Cool story. Im glad in the end the nonsense you wrote doesnt matter because ZOS will see the data & they will see how empty it was, when they tried to pull everyone in this bad playmode.

1 bar each was it at max the whole evening.
Im not making all these effort just to complain but i also dont buy all nonsense giving on a plate.

I'm sure you're right. Nothing left to do but fill out your complaint on the official feedback thread and wait to be proven right.

Or i go and make it public where its seen and not ignored in silence.

I think that thread is the one the devs will actually look at though. It's organized and clean. This thread is just people talking at and over each other, no structure, constant repetition, lacking actual constructive feedback. I don't think this is the more visible one, not to the right people anyways. Unless you mean the community, in which case sure. But it's not like we decide anything.

Thats a valid point i would agree on.

LadyGP · July 1

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

I do think the questions in this survey are very... interestingly chosen from a data analytics standpoint. IMO there are too many "I want to select this but I also want to select this and this".

The bottom of this survey though is extremly concerning. Skill/build diversity is one of the most important things in an MMO and keeps players coming back. They should be concerned about these numbers.

Just because you're having fun or enjoy the lag free experience (who doesn't have the last 7 years) doesn't mean you're heading in the right direction for a long term PvP experience.

You know what also performs good - a dead server.

Abelon · July 1

LadyGP wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

I do think the questions in this survey are very... interestingly chosen from a data analytics standpoint. IMO there are too many "I want to select this but I also want to select this and this".

The bottom of this survey though is extremly concerning. Skill/build diversity is one of the most important things in an MMO and keeps players coming back. They should be concerned about these numbers.

You're not wrong that those are important in an MMO, but you are ignoring the meaning of these aspects in a pvp and balancing context. Specifically that they have become concerns and issues rather than positives. If "endless build possibilities and choice" together with "customizable player options" lead to a complete lack of balancing and an extremely rigid meta, then they are no longer something that keeps players coming back, they're something that pushes them away. If every new armor set release causes dread and apprehension instead of excitement... Etc.

You're right though that the questions are not very well chosen. And this is a good example. People will put those aspects at the bottom, because they are currently (in their eyes) leading to problems. Instead of thinking of those aspects in a purely positive context that admittedly currently does not exist (for some people, in pvp).

MJallday · July 1

IMO but the only people who hate this
Campaign are those who play BGs and ROA and bombs

Glad they’ve finally been found out

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

MJallday wrote: »

IMO but the only people who hate this
Campaign are those who play BGs and ROA and bombs

Glad they’ve finally been found out

I’m strictly a solo player and i hate this

OccultOverload · July 1

I very much dislike and hate everything about vengeance.

demonology89 · July 1

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

Yeah, all I'm going to say is thank you ZOS for at least trying somewhere to fix Cyrodiil.

Now I'm confused. What changes has ZOS made to cyrodiil PvP in the last few years again? I can remember only the addition of some exceedingly poorly designed sets that give free pulls. They haven't even tried limiting heal and shield stacking yet.

Except they did limit heals years ago and the data they collected from it was not promising. Maybe not excessive vigor ticks in certain groups but heals were limited. And there is an entire campaign where proc sets are disabled. But guess what? That campaign is usually dead because PVP players have hemorrhaged over the years due to bad performance and feeling ignored by devs. And now when the devs are finally trying something different to stress test the servers, there's multiple threads like these where PVP players are essentially throwing tantrums over a week of testing.

JustLovely · July 1

MJallday wrote: »

IMO but the only people who hate this
Campaign are those who play BGs and ROA and bombs

Glad they’ve finally been found out

I'm mostly a solo player too, and I also despise vengeance mode....as does everyone I play with in game.

JustLovely · July 1

fufu_from_ps4 wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Why would i encourage anyone to have a terrible and boring experience?
I meaned it when i wrote i have the worst pvp experience in years.

you'll be ridiculed for stating the obvious. the amount of gaslighting that goes on around here is directly in proportion to the amount of overzealous forum policing... which is why they never get honest feedback. and the little bit that slips thru just gets ignored as condescending.

Cha Ching!

Alchimiste1 · July 1

Terrible campaign

lpoki · July 2

Minnesinger wrote: »

This is funny that once every now and then Cyroddil has something going but different than normal and complaints start. Not only the population has increased but the performance is top notch. The typical issues that normally plague pvp are, you got it, low population and performance. The issue is somewhat ironically the pvpers themselves. This guys only bombs and do not know what to do otherwise. This guy only plays in a ball group and now they are defunct. So lets just enjoy while the test is on. After that we will return to the dead map.

Since the server doesn't need to process data right now, its performance is obviously robust enough.But this won't fundamentally solve the problem and will strip away many of this game's distinctive features

Artem_gig · July 2

God, you're so wrong... In the current mode, the one who plays better wins. Everyone has equal conditions. In a 1v1 fight, you'll have equal conditions, and the one who fights better will win. How can you think that the one who fights better could have won in the past? What nonsense are you talking about? In the past, the one with the best build won, even if they didn't fight well. Your build, not your skill, determined 80% of your victory. In the current company, it really depends on how well you use your abilities and skills.

Artem_gig · July 2

Desiato wrote: »

If small scale is your thing, there is Battlegrounds. If you must have CP Cyrodiil, perhaps they will consider keeping at least one server open on each platform and let players choose what they prefer.

I think if they keep the standard mode. That is, there will be less online than there was before. After all, revenge provides all players with more honest conditions, which will not alienate those who were not happy when their attack inflicted 00000000 on the enemy.1% damage, and the enemy's attack dealt you 99999999999% damage.

Joy_Division · July 2

reazea wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

thats just wrong and the person who you was responding too, is right

Again - WRONG! What you fail to understand is that people were having FUN for the first time in ages! The huge numbers of players, along with restrictions in skills, made fights "equal", albeit numbers-based. ZOS just needs to tweak the skills allowed in order to make your own skilfulness matter. I believe that ZOS will figure this out.

Also, AGAIN, we've already had this discussion the previous time we had Vengeance mode active. Most people were in agreement in that they hadn't had that much fun in ages. It just needs skill tweaks, that's all. It's the amount of players that brought the fun because it felt like an ACTUAL WAR like it used to be at the start.

Youre entitled to have your opinion but dont try to sell them as facts 😂 A lot of people hating vengeance, i hope zos tracks the zone chat and realises lmao

No one ever wants to read zone chat...ever

You do know Rich is DC right, Brian is EP right... they do read zone chat. I can promise you they have QA people in live veng right now too doing their own testing. You think they don't have logs of zone chat and run it through AI? Sentiment scanning of text files is one of the OG AI models that has been around for ages. This is stupid easy to implement with very little cost to overhead.

How do you know Rich is DC and Brian is EP? ...just curious. I sincerely don't believe anyone at ZOS PvP's since about 2018. For certain nobody with the official ZOS rep icon has been seen in Cyrodiil since then. So how do you know what you just claimed is factual?

Can confirm Rich is DC and Brian is EP (he even mentioned it on stream), at least their mains were. Just because people PvP, doesn't mean their ideas for game balance are good. In fact, I hear a lot of terrible ideas from professed PvP experts on these forums.

So what are their toon names? When I see them then I'll believe they actually PvP, but not until then.

You can choose to believe what you want. I was at Zenimax's studio and literally saw both of their login screens and played them in numerous Battleground matches. I dont remember their names (even if I did I would not say as that is a violation of terms of service), but I can say that one of Rich's toon was a Tribune back in February 2019.

blktauna · July 2

CatoUnchained wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

Vengeance is not at all popular with the vast majority of PvP mains. It's just not. It's popular with PvE mains and ZOS.

speak for yourself

I love the no busted builds and cracked skills. It's huge non stop fights all over. Fantastic.

lpoki · July 2

They could have easily surveyed those who have spent the most time in Cyrodiil, but they didn't. I can't tell if it's due to incompetence or if it was deliberate.

React · July 2

So for those saying that vengeance is good because it has "better performance"... here is what it looked like between 9PM and 10PM EST tonight on PC/NA. Fully unplayable with 2-5 second delays on abilities/damage numbers, abilities doing the entire animation then not firing at all, etc. I'm all the way at faregyl in these clips with no major fights anywhere nearby, and with the only fight on the map happening all the way up at arrius. This is worse than I've seen the performance in a long time, apart from a few specific points in peak prime time GH.

So, are weapon lines where we have to draw the line for the complexity that can be added to vengeance before the performance falls apart?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

Arrow312 · July 2

reazea wrote: »

Arrow312 wrote: »

You have a chance to improve when you want it. Dont run every day in a zerg, ask for help, practice like in PvE.

IMO most of the players dont want it. They love to run with the swarm and feel save until exp. players come and kill them.

More players are always a good thing but i dont think they get better over time in a kampagne like this. This is just a number game and nothing more.

Excellent point!

Vengeance mode is so dumbed down it can't even be considered an intro or training ground for actual live PvP.

I got a question from a guild member who played AD and he asked why i always one shot him. We are both warden. He sent me his build and it was completly crap. Sets, Mundus, CP all was shxt. But tbf he didnt know it better so he asked. This is what I meant with you can improve your skills. I think if anybody got a request for help most of us would help. Most of the time we got PN or whisper with marco user, cheater...if you start a conversation like this dont wonder if you dont get anything.

IMO they should try cap the healing ablities and nerf RoA. This is the most what i heard and read. Sure there are technical problems but i think with this "little" changes they can have a big impact. Players are frustrated if they need sieges and one bar to kill a group of 8 players or got farmed again and again.

Gankform · July 2

looks easier to me to lag the game (pceu primetime) after the sub system with only 5 ppl in grp.

Avran_Sylt · July 2

LadyGP wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

I do think the questions in this survey are very... interestingly chosen from a data analytics standpoint. IMO there are too many "I want to select this but I also want to select this and this".

The bottom of this survey though is extremly concerning. Skill/build diversity is one of the most important things in an MMO and keeps players coming back. They should be concerned about these numbers.

Just because you're having fun or enjoy the lag free experience (who doesn't have the last 7 years) doesn't mean you're heading in the right direction for a long term PvP experience.

You know what also performs good - a dead server.

Skill and build diversity is great in a Solo/PvE setting as a form of plater/character progression. In a PvP setting many people want to "prove their worth" by being better on an even playing field, their opponents and respective skill is the progression. That isn't to say they wouldn't mind character progression, it's a carrot to chase after all.

sarahthes · July 2

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

The sheer arrogance of thinking PvE mains don't also PvP.

ForumBully · July 2

React wrote: »

So for those saying that vengeance is good because it has "better performance"... here is what it looked like between 9PM and 10PM EST tonight on PC/NA. Fully unplayable with 2-5 second delays on abilities/damage numbers, abilities doing the entire animation then not firing at all, etc. I'm all the way at faregyl in these clips with no major fights anywhere nearby, and with the only fight on the map happening all the way up at arrius. This is worse than I've seen the performance in a long time, apart from a few specific points in peak prime time GH.

So, are weapon lines where we have to draw the line for the complexity that can be added to vengeance before the performance falls apart?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

I wonder if there are some server issues that have nothing to do with Vengeance that might be influencing the results this time. I don't doubt what you're reporting but I haven't seen so much as a hiccup on Xbox NA.

RedBranch · July 2

I was having fun until I realized that we don’t have Meatbag Catapults

ForumBully · July 2

RedBranch wrote: »

I was having fun until I realized that we don’t have Meatbag Catapults

Definitely miss the meatballs. The thing about having massive battles, which I love, is that siege needs to feel effective. In this iteration of Vengeance, it doesn't.

ForumBully · July 2

Just copying this in case anyone missed it. Seems there are server issues outside of Vengeance.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to step in and reiterate a few points and provide some clarity.

The point of this test is to work toward a stable Cyrodiil. We have explained this a few times, but this is the test being done in stages. We already had one round of testing with everything stripped back. This is the second test with a few more ability lines added back in.

After chatting with the team, the Vengeance test is not causing instability issues. We are working on stabilizing things, especially for EU Megaservers, but have identified the Vengeance Test is not the cause.

Ideally, we would like to have avoided an event for testing, but we have internal timelines we are factoring in as well. As we've noted before, this is a functional test. We are actively taking learns and seeing what work can be done to make a better Cyrodiil.

Faulgor · July 2

ForumBully wrote: »

RedBranch wrote: »

I was having fun until I realized that we don’t have Meatbag Catapults

Definitely miss the meatballs. The thing about having massive battles, which I love, is that siege needs to feel effective. In this iteration of Vengeance, it doesn't.

This was already my main complaint in the first test. There is no variation to the zerg vs zerg gameplay because there are no tools to effectively if not kill zergs at least create areas of denial and all that.

Zerg vs Zerg is fun for a while because you rarely see so many people on screen, but it gets utterly boring pretty quickly.

LadyGP · July 2

Abelon wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

I do think the questions in this survey are very... interestingly chosen from a data analytics standpoint. IMO there are too many "I want to select this but I also want to select this and this".

The bottom of this survey though is extremly concerning. Skill/build diversity is one of the most important things in an MMO and keeps players coming back. They should be concerned about these numbers.

You're not wrong that those are important in an MMO, but you are ignoring the meaning of these aspects in a pvp and balancing context. Specifically that they have become concerns and issues rather than positives. If "endless build possibilities and choice" together with "customizable player options" lead to a complete lack of balancing and an extremely rigid meta, then they are no longer something that keeps players coming back, they're something that pushes them away. If every new armor set release causes dread and apprehension instead of excitement... Etc.

You're right though that the questions are not very well chosen. And this is a good example. People will put those aspects at the bottom, because they are currently (in their eyes) leading to problems. Instead of thinking of those aspects in a purely positive context that admittedly currently does not exist (for some people, in pvp).

I agree with you. I view those as two different things. Adding more build diversity into the gave is 1. The next is balancing. If you do just one without 2... yeah... bad call.

And to your comment about the questions.. that is why I put this thread together.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679932/what-should-cyrodiil-look-like-after-vengeance-poll-open-discussion#latest

I wanted to dive deeper into the "I'm having fun I love veng" vs the "worst pvp ever". I think a lot of good conversation is getting lost in the "I love the even playing field" vs "where is my build" trenches. These are very deep and I think those two points alone will be the main factor in how someone votes in the official ZoS survey.

Hopefully my 4.. or 6.. I forget... poll questions help expand on this and allows the devs to see a bit deeper into what the "true" feelings are.

With that being said tons of thoughts in this thread.. if you all want to be part of a constructive conversation feel free to vote in my poll.

Not trying to hijack this thread.. just trying to put some of the emotion captured in this thread into some positive and constructive feedback.

LadyGP · July 2

React wrote: »

So for those saying that vengeance is good because it has "better performance"... here is what it looked like between 9PM and 10PM EST tonight on PC/NA. Fully unplayable with 2-5 second delays on abilities/damage numbers, abilities doing the entire animation then not firing at all, etc. I'm all the way at faregyl in these clips with no major fights anywhere nearby, and with the only fight on the map happening all the way up at arrius. This is worse than I've seen the performance in a long time, apart from a few specific points in peak prime time GH.

So, are weapon lines where we have to draw the line for the complexity that can be added to vengeance before the performance falls apart?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

In no way trying to dismiss your experience - shoot I spent over a year in the big lag thread dealing with issues.

I will say, what you're showing does not appear to be the case for the majority of players. BUT... there are a small hardcore group who are having the exact experience you are. Hopefully ZoS can drill into that small group and figure out what is common about them because they are very clearly there.

Now Arrius last night with the entire server there - yeah that performance was... not optimal to say the least but for me it was still better than primetime GH. It's odd to me that you're so far away and it's that clunky. I wonder if ZoS is allocated resources somehow based on player density per the different regions of the map. Kind of how AoC does it. Maybe there was some bad logic or something to where 99% of resources were at Arrius?

I have zero idea how their backend network is setup for Cyro... just saying when playing Ashes of creation and certain parts of the map got super dense the non dense areas got really laggy. Your video is exactly how it feels in AoC when that happens.

Anyways... thats just my random conspiracy theory for the day. Either way - hope Zos can figure it out cause we need you!

Joy_Division · July 2

LadyGP wrote: »

The bottom of this survey though is extremly concerning. Skill/build diversity is one of the most important things in an MMO and keeps players coming back. They should be concerned about these numbers.

Just because you're having fun or enjoy the lag free experience (who doesn't have the last 7 years) doesn't mean you're heading in the right direction for a long term PvP experience.

You know what also performs good - a dead server.

The bottom choices are a consequence of what we experience on Live and the devs inability to create a decent balance. When customizable build options mean broken proc sets, do everything builds with no weaknesses, and unkillable ball groups, then I'll take a hard pass.

I've been playing RPGs all my life and I love making interesting builds. But, those builds are only fun to play if they work in the context of the game, rather than breaking it. The gear sets, the subclassing options, the power creep, the poor balancing decisions have all made for a PvP game fun that has headed in the wrong direction for years now.

I'm not sure I agree with the take that because I'm having fun or enjoying the experience doesn't mean the game isn't going the right way. To me, that's a pretty strong indicator that something very right it going on.

fizzybeef · July 2

I will rather nuke ball groups all night with my 3 man organised friend group, then have nothing to do then mindless zerg v zerg and pvDoor. Nothing else is what Vengeance is.