Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

Arrow312

Jaavaa wrote: »

I only want subclassing and my normal skills. I don’t need sets cause i never use procs before.

And guys, i read so many ppls here talking about skill, i know a few of you, you zerging every evening and chasing 1-2 players with 10-20.

What i read so far people love vengence because they can zerg all day without the risk of getting killed. I mean the TTK is far to high. I fought a first Vengence a bunch of others with a few and we only got pulled with the DK chains into them. This was the same people who said RoA kills pvp. A lot of people who defending Vengence are the same people who get killed in normal Cyro. And they dont get killed by procs they got killed because their build unblanced and now they get a template where they have have everything they wont get when they put a build togehter.

And skill based doenst mean chasing 1-2 players with 10-20 or X vs 1.

Ingenon

I have been spending some time in PS/NA Vengeance campaign every day. Playing for all three factions on different days while leveling multiple alts in alliance skill lines. Faction balance keeps changing, each faction has held half or more of the map at different times. Fights have ranged from large (12+ versus 12+) to 1 versus 1. Skills are firing, and I am not getting disconnected.

Overall, Vengeance has been fun. I am not getting one shotted by enemies I never see, and I am able to kill any individual enemy, usually with some help, like 3 versus 1 is working even against an enemy player that is jumping around a tree or tower. But I have won a few 1 versus 1. And I feel like I am contributing with siege, and I fix broken walls/doors. Normally I play PvE solo/duo or normal/veteran trials/dungeons with guilds.

Dock01

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Four_Fingers

70K health, 30K mag/stam and still have 5K Weapon/Spell damage.
Better than most builds, all in a zerg.
No wonder they love it.

Jaavaa

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

Qagh

It's the worst PvP ever. PvP for PvE Player!

Major_Soulless

Four_Fingers wrote: »

70K health, 30K mag/stam and still have 5K Weapon/Spell damage.
Better than most builds, all in a zerg.
No wonder they love it.

70 k health is irrelevant as you die from one fall in normal cyro you don't

Major_Soulless

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

He thinks people are cheating I imagine

Alchimiste1

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

A prime example of the toxic casual right here

Anomander72

This.

Anomander72 wrote: »

"Is there any PvE group that would take a level 15 character for endgame Trial or Hard Mode runs? Why impose rules and restrictions on PvP players that don’t apply to PvE? Why undermine the time and effort PvP players invest in crafting their gear, builds, and character progression"
This.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Well, I have been playing Vengeance longer and longer each day. Have been seeing lots of former Emperors (and Empresses) running around. Have seen lots of former PvP guild mates also.
But yes, there are LOTS of people who don't or haven't played PvP in a long time. Me included.
But from what I have read, all the "real" PvP'rs are mad about it and resort to name calling and insulting the new/returning players. That's sad. Maybe they are happy with a 30 ppl cap, or empty campaigns.
Me, this is the most fun I've had since 2014 - 2015 PvP. I did the Golden Rewards on first night. I got a 100+ kills. I can't do that in current PvP.
One of the reasons I quit PvP, besides the normal Cyrodiil bugs and problems, was constantly dealing with the "meta" builds and such. (Go ahead and say it now- "Get Good). I play to have fun and yes, I try to put together good builds with good DPS, but I don't spend all my time on being a "Meta God". So being on a even keel with everyone has been refreshing. I have even almost gained 2 ranks!
To all you "Hard Core Meta" PvP'rs,, I'm sorry you hate it. I disagree with the ridicule you give those who like it. I'm glad to see Cyrodiil so full. Last night we did a epic 3-way for a keep for over a hour! And the open field battles are intense!

If you dislike the Vengeance Campaign so much, take your complaints to the link below where they will be heard by the Devs. And as far as ridiculing the so called "Toxic Casuals", remember, you were new once. How about trying to help and teach them, "i.e. Dont hit the doors, hit the steps or walls!. I myself would LOVE to see the population back to what it once was. Let's try and support Brian Wheeler and his team to try and fix Cyrodiil, not seem like a temporary campaign is the end of Tamriel. Huzzah!
Just my 2 Septims from a veteran casual.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679827/the-official-vengeance-test-campaign-feedback-thread-test-2#latest

Udrath

PVP felt great in summerset and elsweyr. What changed? Answer: Too much to change back

gc0018

It is worst for majority, but it is the best for nightblade. Quick level a nightblade and try it out. No matter solo or group battle, you are only one can brust-kill and never get killed.

Alchimiste1

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Well, I have been playing Vengeance longer and longer each day. Have been seeing lots of former Emperors (and Empresses) running around. Have seen lots of former PvP guild mates also.
But yes, there are LOTS of people who don't or haven't played PvP in a long time. Me included.
But from what I have read, all the "real" PvP'rs are mad about it and resort to name calling and insulting the new/returning players. That's sad. Maybe they are happy with a 30 ppl cap, or empty campaigns.
Me, this is the most fun I've had since 2014 - 2015 PvP. I did the Golden Rewards on first night. I got a 100+ kills. I can't do that in current PvP.
One of the reasons I quit PvP, besides the normal Cyrodiil bugs and problems, was constantly dealing with the "meta" builds and such. (Go ahead and say it now- "Get Good). I play to have fun and yes, I try to put together good builds with good DPS, but I don't spend all my time on being a "Meta God". So being on a even keel with everyone has been refreshing. I have even almost gained 2 ranks!
To all you "Hard Core Meta" PvP'rs,, I'm sorry you hate it. I disagree with the ridicule you give those who like it. I'm glad to see Cyrodiil so full. Last night we did a epic 3-way for a keep for over a hour! And the open field battles are intense!

If you dislike the Vengeance Campaign so much, take your complaints to the link below where they will be heard by the Devs. And as far as ridiculing the so called "Toxic Casuals", remember, you were new once. How about trying to help and teach them, "i.e. Dont hit the doors, hit the steps or walls!. I myself would LOVE to see the population back to what it once was. Let's try and support Brian Wheeler and his team to try and fix Cyrodiil, not seem like a temporary campaign is the end of Tamriel. Huzzah!
Just my 2 Septims from a veteran casual.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679827/the-official-vengeance-test-campaign-feedback-thread-test-2#latest

Yeah , see the toxic casual isnt a new player that just wants to have fun zerging during mym. That’s just a normal new player.

But then you have people who THINK they understand eso pvp making claims about how vengeance is the most skill based pvp there is. When the reality is the combat is so watered down and the tools so little it doesn’t give room for people with strong mechanics and game sense to truly outplay. The problem isn’t even the gear. If you put everyone in bone pirate and hulking with live rules there are plenty of players who will still successfully be 1vXing or fighting outnumbered. It’s just that the balancing in vengeance is too poor. The combos too limiting, the ultimates not strong enough to make it feel like burst. The hots not being properly balanced. Then you have skills like chain which are pretty much a death sentence if you are pulled into a Zerg because vengeance doesn’t provide the tools to counter it.


I think vengeance is better suited for a weekend 2-3 day event. The population on pc/na has already gone down.

L_Nici

To be fair, the player numbers say everything. Saturday EVening, Primetime PC EU not even poplocked. The number of players diminished. The first 3 days were poplock and 100+ queues even outside of primetime

Four_Fingers

Major_Soulless wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

70K health, 30K mag/stam and still have 5K Weapon/Spell damage.
Better than most builds, all in a zerg.
No wonder they love it.

70 k health is irrelevant as you die from one fall in normal cyro you don't

I can't tell you how many times I've died to OP fall damage following our fearless crown off a cliff in GH, it even kills my mount.

ForumBully

I'm just loving all the admissions from players that they used to be able to kill other players, and now in Vengeance those players have a chance.
They don't think that it's an admission, but it is. When the floor is the ceiling, and you lost, you lost to a better player.

Oblivion_Protocol

What I find interesting is all the discussion about “skill”. That word keeps getting thrown around repeatedly, with the majority of folks saying that Vengeance promotes more “skilled” gameplay, rather than proc sets.

But what is “skill” in ESO?

I genuinely want to know people’s answer for what actually makes one player better than another. How do we define “skill” in this game, specifically in Cyrodiil PvP?

amiiegee

L_Nici wrote: »

To be fair, the player numbers say everything. Saturday EVening, Primetime PC EU not even poplocked. The number of players diminished. The first 3 days were poplock and 100+ queues even outside of primetime

Of cause the numbers go down. Vengeance is stale, boring and bad pvp overall.

On PS EU the bars went from 2 2 2 on the first day to 0 0 0 at prime time, on a saturday.
Nobody wants to play this nonsense.

Desiato

I'm not stressing about the lack of options mainly because it is one step in a series of tests.

I don't like the high ttk, but I hope it's just a consequence of the limited options and part of the testing process.

But it's way better than dealing with troll tanks and stalemates against near peers. At least whenever I got into a 1v1, someone died.... eventually. Unlike normal cyro.

Further, let's not forget this game doesn't have a real pvp audience anymore. Regular cyro is full of pve players of all types who are just there to grind alliance war skill lines for trials or transmutes on as many characters they can. They don't have good builds, they don't care, and they barely try. Killing them doesn't mean anything. Even though I was a pvp main for years, when I go there now it's just for banner/horn/caltrops for a pve character. I'm just holding w and listening to music the whole time because I couldn't care less anymore.

The same is true of the test. Many players are in the habit of zerging keep to keep just for oticks. I don't know how ZOS can build a good pvp culture without making the game more accessible to fans of pvp who don't currently play eso. Because why would a pvp gamer play eso in the first place? Most of the doac players from 11 years ago are long gone.

But imagine a regular cyro server 100% full of knowledgeable players in strong builds. Would anyone ever die? Outside of all of the performance issues, the gameplay is flat out broken.

I hope as Vengeance is iterated, the ttk comes way down. Nerfing PVP mechanics for players who don't even really like good pvp doesn't make sense. In the first few years of cyro, the ttk was low and that made the game thrilling. That is an essential component of all good pvp.

Jaavaa

@Dock01

Post2: Answer please. Zergling 😉

LadyGP

Notice how low the pop is right now. And the few that are on just have to zerg.

Really hope ZoS pays attention and realizes that "fun" doesnt just mean big fights or good performance. Because right now people are tired of veng.

Your can ask did you have fun 5 different ways on your survey to get the results you want - but this isn't it. The performance and in game setiment from people who actually play pvp say that. Sure, the casual pve might enjoy it but how many of them are actually going to stick around.

Based on pop atm - not many.

I was so positive the first veng test. This second test... I'm already feeling it and losing any incentive I had to come back to the game after taking a break. If this is what pvp becomes... I'm out.

Desiato

LadyGP wrote: »

Really hope ZoS pays attention and realizes that "fun" doesnt just mean big fights or good performance. Because right now people are tired of veng.

No, of course not. But good performance needs to be the baseline from which everything else is built.

I use Rust as an example because it's a pvp game I play regularly that compares to Cyro in many ways -- open world pvp with up to 1k players.

No one would play Rust if it had the performance of regular Cyrodiil. And probably almost no one would play cyro if not for the rewards. IMO most eso players are trapped in a skinner box without realizing it.

That doesn't mean that gameplay design isn't important.

Also in Rust, the ttk is a couple of seconds if your head is in the clouds and one isn't focused on playing well. That makes it exciting. High ttk pvp games are boring. If I make a mistake in my rotation, I need to pay for it. If I'm travelling between fare and alessia listening to music with my head in the clouds and don't notice the combat queue, I need to die to that gank attempt.

The biggest gameplay mistake they made for PVP in ESO was trying to incentivize it's casual PVE audience to play it. PVP isn't for everyone. Like I said in another thread, it's not a skill thing, but an attitude thing. PVP gamers are built differently. Like people who play sports. The avg basketball fan wouldn't actually enjoy playing real basketball because it's rough, dirty and sweaty. You're gonna get shouldered, elbows, hits to the head, etc... And you gotta be able to take L's and still have fun.

So design the next vengeance test for pvp enthusiasts, make a special vengeance client, and issue invite codes to pvp communities that would be interested in open world pvp. ESO *had* legit pvp audience in 2014, but it hasn't for many many many years.

ForumBully

LadyGP wrote: »

Notice how low the pop is right now. And the few that are on just have to zerg.

Really hope ZoS pays attention and realizes that "fun" doesnt just mean big fights or good performance. Because right now people are tired of veng.

Your can ask did you have fun 5 different ways on your survey to get the results you want - but this isn't it. The performance and in game setiment from people who actually play pvp say that. Sure, the casual pve might enjoy it but how many of them are actually going to stick around.

Based on pop atm - not many.

I was so positive the first veng test. This second test... I'm already feeling it and losing any incentive I had to come back to the game after taking a break. If this is what pvp becomes... I'm out.

I'm a vengeance fan, but I wouldn't want to stop at this iteration forever. I hope they can eventually explain what seems to be a variety of conflicting accounts about performance. I hope they recognize that damage is falling behind healing and they address that. I also hope the next step is a bigger one than just a few skill lines, and I hope they introduce some previous mechanics or better yet, new ones.

Iriidius

Arrow312 wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

I only want subclassing and my normal skills. I don’t need sets cause i never use procs before.

And guys, i read so many ppls here talking about skill, i know a few of you, you zerging every evening and chasing 1-2 players with 10-20.

What i read so far people love vengence because they can zerg all day without the risk of getting killed. I mean the TTK is far to high. I fought a first Vengence a bunch of others with a few and we only got pulled with the DK chains into them. This was the same people who said RoA kills pvp. A lot of people who defending Vengence are the same people who get killed in normal Cyro. And they dont get killed by procs they got killed because their build unblanced and now they get a template where they have have everything they wont get when they put a build togehter.

And skill based doenst mean chasing 1-2 players with 10-20 or X vs 1.

Maybe what you read by other Vengeance haters about Vengeance lovers as noVengeance lovers admitted loving to zerg.
DK chains exist and get used by zergs in normal Cyrodiil too so why should Vengeance lovers remove Vengeance rahter than just the chain? As DK Main I never used chain and would not miss it.
While chain is annoying RoA(+chain) is definitely worse and many good players with good builds get killed by it. Except if you consider every nonballgroup build unbalanced. Sure some players also like not having builds togehter, it is not like anyone denied that. Build is not skill. Skill(s) is skill.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

70K health, 30K mag/stam and still have 5K Weapon/Spell damage.
Better than most builds, all in a zerg.
No wonder they love it.

Battlespirit halving dmg and healing practically doubles your hp pool without also doubling your hpscaling skills.
Without battlespirit 70k HP is practically only 35k which is about average in normal PvP. 5k Weapong dmg is probably below average buid and overall stats are too. In build Cyrodiil you can get high extrastats from groupsets and -skills just by beeing in a group, much higher than a 1vXer or in Vengeance.

Iriidius

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

Maybe that almost every fight in Standart Campaign is won by the player with better build before it even starts no matter how effektive the looser actually uses his abilitys except when both players have similar build quality or the fight already got decided by numbers.

Major_Soulless wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

He thinks people are cheating I imagine

Dock01 accused nobody of cheating, only of relying on gear and complaining when they cant.
But if you have no arguments you accuse people of accusing others of cheating as cheating is conspiration theory.
Or do you want to tell me using better gear is cheating?

Jaavaa

Iriidius wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

Maybe that almost every fight in Standart Campaign is won by the player with better build before it even starts no matter how effektive the looser actually uses his abilitys except when both players have similar build quality or the fight already got decided by numbers.

Major_Soulless wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

He thinks people are cheating I imagine

Dock01 accused nobody of cheating, only of relying on gear and complaining when they cant.
But if you have no arguments you accuse people of accusing others of cheating as cheating is conspiration theory.
Or do you want to tell me using better gear is cheating?

What is your Problem with; do a better Build too? I bet, you are one of this people who can’t do anything with exactly the same Build as your enemy. So… don’t hate better players and stay in your zerg the next 3 days. Dang… 🤕

Iriidius

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I am enjoying the skill-based PVP with little to no server latency issues on my end. It makes me smile with glee when the players who are mad about Vengeance are the ones who literally have a channel/stream or are a part of the "secret club" PVP "veterans" and cannot monetize/show off their skills in Vengeance. Perhaps maybe because "skill" in ESO before Vengeance was literally don the most overpowered skills/sets and/or run in a ball overhealing each other. Big grin on my face as I 1vX and solo-siege for hours in Vengeance knowing that some people claim that its impossible (even claiming that its laggier than Grey Host EL OH EL ).

You don't have to like it. They made 8v8 BGs for ppl who love procs and ballgrouping. Just advocate for Grey Host to stay and remain in that containment server. Vengeance has already shown with evidence to fix server latency issues at large as well as combat bug. Live Cyrodiil will never be as performant as it was in 2018 Summerset when calculations went Server-side, but Vengeance manages to run smooth (on most people's machines who aren't conveniently protesting it) even on Live's server infrastructure. They don't have to protest obvious progress against lag if Lag Host will stay. It should stay, if sustainable. Don't take Grey Host away like 3-Team BGs got taken away. Even if I disagree with GH Lag Advocates I would never wish upon them the heartbreak that was the removal of 3-Team BGs.

A prime example of the toxic casual right here

Markytous even wants to let Carrybuild PvPers keep Grey Host to play like they want but totally toxic that he wants to play not in their campaign after their ruleset himselg but rather in Vengeance and total casual when he already PvPd in 2018.

Iriidius

amiiegee wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

To be fair, the player numbers say everything. Saturday EVening, Primetime PC EU not even poplocked. The number of players diminished. The first 3 days were poplock and 100+ queues even outside of primetime

Of cause the numbers go down. Vengeance is stale, boring and bad pvp overall.

On PS EU the bars went from 2 2 2 on the first day to 0 0 0 at prime time, on a saturday.
Nobody wants to play this nonsense.

According to your earlier post PS EU never had 2 2 2 bar(equal to 3 3 3 in PC view and 9 9 9 Grey Host bars) so how can it drop from population numbers it never had to zero.
Did you maybe fake population numbers or time using screenshots from offhours in these earlier posts and forget or did you fake population numbers in this post?

Avran_Sylt

Jaavaa wrote: »

Dock01 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

I don't believe those numbers for a second. What I hear and see is the opposite of these numbers. Sometimes surveys can be pretty selectively read or interpreted and this is clearly one of those cases.

here it is, numbers dont lie lol. i do enjoy vengeance its super fun and fair like a true pvp game should be. so everytime i see people trying to inflate the number of people who hated it, id always give it a huge pass. Even back then, in zone chat, everyone was having fun. There are only 1 or two people who complain and try to argue about their gears being useless lol it was nice

Tell me please, what you mean with „fair“? What is not fair in the Standard Campaign?

Certain sets for starters:
Rallying Cry effectively gives you Impregnable's 5pc and Hundings Rage 5pc to all group members diminishing per, only using one 5pc set.

This double-dips on the inherent benefit of having more than one person synchronizing attacks.