What Should Cyrodiil Look Like After Vengeance? (Poll + Open Discussion)

LadyGP

Howdy everyone,

We’ve all got thoughts about the Vengeance test—whether you love it, hate it, or landed somewhere in between. It shakes things up by cutting down on abilities complexity to improve performance. For some, it works great in large-scale fights. For others, it feels like build diversity is steamrolled and the meta is way too one-dimensional (most numbers = win).

This thread isn’t about how Vengeance went—that feedback belongs in the The Official Vengeance Test Campaign Feedback Thread (Test 2). Instead, this is about what comes next. What should Cyrodiil look like going forward?

Why This Conversation Matters

ZOS has clearly shown they’re exploring ways to improve performance, and Vengeance is giving us a taste of what that could look like. But there’s no one-size-fits-all solution for a mode as complex and diverse as Cyrodiil. That’s why it’s so important we have a space to share constructive feedback and alternatives—not just to say what didn’t work, but what could work better.

This thread is about looking ahead—building on what we are learning from Vengeance and helping ZOS shape a better version of Cyrodiil. Whether you’re a solo ganker, ball group runner, small-scale brawler, or somewhere in between, your input matters. Let’s make this a productive, respectful space for sharing different viewpoints.


Let’s start simple.

Question: How do you feel about Vengeance’s performance and skill/build changes? Options:

1: Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).
2: Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).
3: Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.
4: Performance wasn’t better, but I like the simplified skills/builds.
5: No strong feelings either way.

Your Ideal Cyrodiil (Post-Vengeance)

If ZOS keeps pushing for performance gains, where do we draw the line? What’s your ideal balance between combat fluidity and build freedom? Should certain morphs or weapon lines come back? Should there be better systems for rewarding small group or solo play? How do we keep the sandbox feel alive without wrecking the server?

If you liked the simplicity of Vengeance—tell us why. If you hated it—tell us what you’d change instead. Toss in ideas, trade-offs, or small tweaks. Let’s focus on solutions that make Cyrodiil better for all kinds of players.

Stay Constructive

This only works if we keep it respectful. No flame wars, no dunking on people who like different playstyles. Critique is fine—but pair it with ideas. ZOS reads these threads, and if we want to make an impact, we need to give them clear, thoughtful feedback they can actually use.


What do you want Cyrodiil to look like after Vengeance?

CameraBeardThePirate

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

2 words: AoE caps.

We've been here before: they were bad back then, and they're bad now. It removes 90% of the skill in the game; if the game decides whom you get to damage at random during your ult combos, it doesn't matter how much skill went into that combo, positioning, timing, etc.

Putting in effort to line up the perfect ult dump just to realize you're doing nothing but pulling a lever on a slot machine when you do feels awful.

I'd wager the vast majority of players outspoken against Vengeance would be totally fine with it if damage skills weren't capped to 3 targets. It makes Cyrodiil a boring slog.

LadyGP

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

2 words: AoE caps.

We've been here before: they were bad back then, and they're bad now. It removes 90% of the skill in the game; if the game decides whom you get to damage at random during your ult combos, it doesn't matter how much skill went into that combo, positioning, timing, etc.

I'd wager the vast majority of players outspoken against Vengeance would be totally fine with it if damage skills weren't capped to 3 targets. It makes Cyrodiil a boring slog.

I agree with you. I'd want to know the "logic" behind how the game determines who in the dmg point takes the dmg (is it lowest health, closest to me, etc).

I do think the AoE caps are needed though... I think they were an attempt to reduce burst of calculations but a byproduct of that change was to also reduce ball groups dps.

I like the concept they are going with but I think they would be better off looking at the heal stacking and shield stacking.

As someone who enjoys running with a ball group I can tell you we are very much OP and there are times where it can feel boring. The most intense moments in a ball group for me are when I see our health bars moving like crazy while we are trying to push and.. it's just a lot of paying attention to where your position is, dmg is, healing is, etc, but this only happens towards the tail end of the fights when 50 people show up.

I wish there was a cap on how many heals/shields we could stack so we could get this same level of excitement with less players. The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

I'd love to see a post vengeance version of cyro where the skills have been reworked to reduce the math behind them (but not stripped to where they are now so it's most number wins), hot/shield stacking caps (so ball groups can be taken down easier), a cc immunity added to people who get pulled by rush of agony (because it performs terrible under heavy lag), and then see how performance is.

IMO there is a way we can reduce the math behind the skills while still giving people proc sets, the sets they love in general, the skills they love, and keep performance relatively good. Maybe we don't have a 700+ person cap (no idea what cap is) but we have 500+.

YandereGirlfriend

LadyGP wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

2 words: AoE caps.

We've been here before: they were bad back then, and they're bad now. It removes 90% of the skill in the game; if the game decides whom you get to damage at random during your ult combos, it doesn't matter how much skill went into that combo, positioning, timing, etc.

I'd wager the vast majority of players outspoken against Vengeance would be totally fine with it if damage skills weren't capped to 3 targets. It makes Cyrodiil a boring slog.

I agree with you. I'd want to know the "logic" behind how the game determines who in the dmg point takes the dmg (is it lowest health, closest to me, etc).

I do think the AoE caps are needed though... I think they were an attempt to reduce burst of calculations but a byproduct of that change was to also reduce ball groups dps.

I like the concept they are going with but I think they would be better off looking at the heal stacking and shield stacking.

As someone who enjoys running with a ball group I can tell you we are very much OP and there are times where it can feel boring. The most intense moments in a ball group for me are when I see our health bars moving like crazy while we are trying to push and.. it's just a lot of paying attention to where your position is, dmg is, healing is, etc, but this only happens towards the tail end of the fights when 50 people show up.

I wish there was a cap on how many heals/shields we could stack so we could get this same level of excitement with less players. The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

I'd love to see a post vengeance version of cyro where the skills have been reworked to reduce the math behind them (but not stripped to where they are now so it's most number wins), hot/shield stacking caps (so ball groups can be taken down easier), a cc immunity added to people who get pulled by rush of agony (because it performs terrible under heavy lag), and then see how performance is.

IMO there is a way we can reduce the math behind the skills while still giving people proc sets, the sets they love in general, the skills they love, and keep performance relatively good. Maybe we don't have a 700+ person cap (no idea what cap is) but we have 500+.

Offensive AOE caps have no place in the game. Full stop. It was a failed mechanic back in 2017 when they binned it and it is a failed mechanic in 2025. It is like the devs forgot the lessons from the previous team. Something something history repeating something something. Such changes flagrantly penalize skill and heavily nerf small-scale and solo outnumbered play.

Further, offense is good. Killing players is good. Killing players quickly removes them and their continued calculations from the fight. It is not good for performance if 300 players persist in a fight because the only way to kill any noticeable number of them is via siege (which is already severely retrogade gameplay as siege is like the least skillful mechanic in Cyrodiil).

MorallyBipolar

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

ZOS should just limit heals and shields to one instance of each on any given player at one time and add "monsters only" condition to pull sets.

That's it. Vengeance in any iteration will be no skill cookie cutter trash. Nobody will stick around for something so limiting for any amount of time and mandated vengeance mode will drive away close to all the current PvP community.

licenturion

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I just want an extra playlist "Vengeance' and keep the rest as it is. That way everybody can be happy. The vengeance pool of skills and sets could rotate on a monthly basic to keep things fresh while keeping the equal playing field.

I don't enjoy and play the regular PvP because it is full of oppressive and unfun mechanics and very hard to read if you don't know every class, every skill and every set.

melvin10

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

Just make it a different campaign. Once it gets stale it'll end up like No CP.

Desiato

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

I voted what most closely represents my view.

IMO, and I'm just guessing, is that the limited build options is just for testing. Though they are making an effort, I would guess only a small team is working on this so it's going to take time.

The biggest problem remains cultural. People are used to playing in Cyrodiil a certain way. I played this afternoon and my faction was being double teamed. Because it was challenging, players became demotivated and just stood around in keeps or the gate.

On the other hand the two factions pushing us had zero reason to, except for the fact it was the path of least resistance. This is how players are used to playing after being trained for years to earn AP by zerging down undefeated keeps for O ticks. Even though ticks aren't as relevant right now, this is how players are used to playing.

This isn't at all like 2014 when the pop caps were high. We had a *REAL* PVP audience in ESO back then. We had organized groups and pugs who played for map control. We inherited a culture from DOAC. There were fights across the map. Not only did we have an abundance of organized groups, there were always pugs running.

What Vengeance needs more than anything is a real PVP audience. Real PVP players will play a good pvp game for good fights alone without any gift boxes or costumes or golden pursuits. That's not to say PVP shouldn't have those things, but many of the players currently in Vengeance probably don't play dedicated PVP games and are primarily motivated by rewards.

The average ESO player, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards. This is by design. After ESO's bad launch, ZOS had a public presentation about how they were going to turn it around. I remember very clearly the slide describing the "endless reward cycle" they planned to implement. This is the culture it has resulted in.

ZOS, please open the next test to the general public through invite codes offered in TRUE PVP communities of players who play PVP games for the fun of good competition. The PVP culture in this game is completely broken and Vengeance alone will not fix it.

With that said, it's way better than regular Cyrodiil. I had some 1v1s, lost some won some, but at least they weren't stalemates. Sure I got zerged down, but that was on me for yoloing. Plus I didn't have a single bad experience due to lag. This is a great point to continue this project from.

LadyGP

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

Desiato wrote: »

I voted what most closely represents my view.

IMO, and I'm just guessing, is that the limited build options is just for testing. Though they are making an effort, I would guess only a small team is working on this so it's going to take time.

The biggest problem remains cultural. People are used to playing in Cyrodiil a certain way. I played this afternoon and my faction was being double teamed. Because it was challenging, players became demotivated and just stood around in keeps or the gate.

On the other hand the two factions pushing us had zero reason to, except for the fact it was the path of least resistance. This is how players are used to playing after being trained for years to earn AP by zerging down undefeated keeps for O ticks. Even though ticks aren't as relevant right now, this is how players are used to playing.

This isn't at all like 2014 when the pop caps were high. We had a *REAL* PVP audience in ESO back then. We had organized groups and pugs who played for map control. We inherited a culture from DOAC. There were fights across the map. Not only did we have an abundance of organized groups, there were always pugs running.

What Vengeance needs more than anything is a real PVP audience. Real PVP players will play a good pvp game for good fights alone without any gift boxes or costumes or golden pursuits. That's not to say PVP shouldn't have those things, but many of the players currently in Vengeance probably don't play dedicated PVP games and are primarily motivated by rewards.

The average ESO player, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards. This is by design. After ESO's bad launch, ZOS had a public presentation about how they were going to turn it around. I remember very clearly the slide describing the "endless reward cycle" they planned to implement. This is the culture it has resulted in.

ZOS, please open the next test to the general public through invite codes offered in TRUE PVP communities of players who play PVP games for the fun of good competition. The PVP culture in this game is completely broken and Vengeance alone will not fix it.

With that said, it's way better than regular Cyrodiil. I had some 1v1s, lost some won some, but at least they weren't stalemates. Sure I got zerged down, but that was on me for yoloing. Plus I didn't have a single bad experience due to lag. This is a great point to continue this project from.

Really good read and I agree with most of what you said. I don't see them opening it up with codes because there will be a ton of backlash I'm sure but I like where your head is at with that (the end goal).

They have said this test and the reqork of skills was stripped to the smallest amount possible for time sake - I trust them and take their word at that. I do not think what we are playing right now is what the end game will look look. What I think it will be is something between what we currently have on live and what veng is - somewhere in the middle.

I think they will rework all skills/sets/cp/buffs/siege and rework healing/buffs/shielding, etc caps.

I agree with @YandereGirlfriend - there shouldn't be AOE caps. Period.

I'm guessing here... but I think they did that as an attempt to reduce the effect ball groups will have in this test. If I was in their shoes.. they know the answer is cap hots/buffs but they also know that if they were to just flat do that PvE trifecta groups would lose their absolute minds (and I get it). So what is ZoS to do... try AoE caps... which.. to your point... been there done that. This needs to be removed.

Let's not build more technical debt by taking the "easier" path. We know what the solution is... we know that they need to utilize battle spirit to let them balance pve and pvp separate. Less technical debt... more long term solutions. We are too far along in this games life cycle to be taking the easy way out.

Fix ball groups (reduce the hots/shielding), add immunity once you get pulled by rush (no more ping pong), and reduce math behind skills while still keeping them as close to their orgins as possible, and I think you'll have an absolute banger of a PvP experience.

Once you do that and see performance is good - rework the map somehow. Cyro needs to be flipped on its head because to your point... it's been the same thing...same keeps...same everything for so many years. Rework the map and you'll bring in the OG PvP people in this game.

Abelon

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I vote this, but I'm not 100% happy with all of the skills and the exact way they're simplified. I am generally happy with the idea of simplifying them and leveling the playing field. But, they are too samey in places. Sometimes the skills are already too samey across a single skill line. It's a complicated thing to get right, as I imagine the devs wanted to stay close to the original skills. But obviously if you stay close to the originals while removing that "variety" factor, you'll sometimes end up with a skill that goes "heal x amount while shielding y amount" and a skill that goes "shield x amount while healing y amount" and that in one skill line. Not super fun.

And I too am of the opinion that Vengeance should start out as an additional campaign. It will take a while to iron out the kinks. And some people just don't want to play it. That's fine. I don't think they should be forced to.

Sluggy

No strong feelings either way.

My ideal Cyrodiil is exactly what I've said for six or seven years straight now.

Everyone at max level. And either no CP or Max CP. There's zero reason a competitive environment should have disparity like that.

All sets provide a boost to the wearer only. This is a huge part of what makes ballgroups bad. Playing in coordination is fine and I've see a lot of it this event to know it can work in any situation. Which is great! But when you have sets that boost other party members it snowballs way out of control and trivializes the role of any individual. Essentially, players become buffbots and nothing more. And individual skill can't shine through because they are no longer responsible for providing their own strength and making good use of that. It also diminishes almost every set in the game. Why would I wear Hunding's Rage if I can instead wear a set that gives everyone in the group Hunding's Rage? Would would I wear Fortified Brass if I can instead wear a set that gives Fortified Brass to everyone? Next thing you know, you have a group where each member is effectively wearing eleven or twelve sets! This is what leads to insane stats that are impossible to compete with outside of organized, pre-planned composition groups. This drives away serious and casual players alike because it is simply impossible to compete with.

Non-aimed, non-targeted healing needs to go. Skill should be the key factor of healing, not sustain. Regen and Vigor are the two biggest

I used to say that we should only allow one instance of each HoT. After this second Vengeance mode I'm willing to go further. One instance of any HoT. Period. Strongest one cast on you replaces the last if there was one already ticking.

Ultimately, I take a page from the book of fighting games. Namely, that fights should have a sense of entropy. They should be ever marching toward a conclusion and measures should only slow down that effect, not outright stop or reverse it. Healing is one of the biggest issues in this regard and I would prefer to see it balanced in a way that it recovers after the fact rather than completely mitigating the effects of damage altogether.

Highwayman

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

LadyGP wrote: »

I agree with @YandereGirlfriend - there shouldn't be AOE caps. Period.

I'm guessing here... but I think they did that as an attempt to reduce the effect ball groups will have in this test. If I was in their shoes.. they know the answer is cap hots/buffs but they also know that if they were to just flat do that PvE trifecta groups would lose their absolute minds (and I get it). So what is ZoS to do... try AoE caps... which.. to your point... been there done that. This needs to be removed.

I am just guessing here too, but I think we have ample evidence to say they know what the performance issue is and it's aoe calculations.

Not only are there target caps, but ground aoes have also been changed to apply a dot to characters. These both are solutions to the naive implementation of having to traverse a full list of players for every tick of every aoe and check if they fall in the area (or the inverse of that).

I am also not sure there are really any good solutions to this. What comes to mind is mapping character movement with something like Uber's H3 https://www.uber.com/blog/h3/ and limiting the search space to 3 grids (assuming every aoe fit in the selected grid space). Who knows how that would pan out.

valenwood_vegan

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I voted closest to how I feel, but even as a not-very-hardcore pvp'er, I think the current version of vengeance is too limited. I think with more work it could be a suitable replacement for the under-50 campaign (but open to everyone), as a way to pull in some new people / spark some new interest in pvp more generally.

It shouldn't be forced on everyone, as I totally understand how it's boring for more experienced / regular pvp'ers and I agree that it might become boring over time even for some of us who currently enjoy it. But then ideally some of those people might move on to the regular cyro and grow the community. And I mean I'm not a developer and I don't know what the end goal is or what's possible, but hopefully there is some data they can use and lessons and feedback they can learn from these tests that will help improve regular cyro as well, without taking too much away from it.

licenturion

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

Desiato wrote: »

The average ESO player, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

Let me fix that: The average gamer, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

It isn’t 2014 anymore. Online gaming is mainstream and has become reward driven. That is why live service games come up with new events, battlepasses, maps and modes constantly to keep people their attention.

Most of my mates stop playing Overwatch, Diablo, Rivals etc with me when their battlepass is complete because ‘there isn’t anything to do anymore’. It is just modern gaming and this will never change again.

Same with streams. Most people I know only ‘watch’ Twitch because of the reward drops.

Auberon1983

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I’m definitely enjoying Vengeance, even though I thought I wouldn’t originally. However, like I’ve said on this forum prior, I in no way want it to replace GH. I love GH, yep even the troll builds, the bombers, the tower runners, etc. I play a Healbot 5000 in GH, and dang it, I love my SPC + Ozezan combo

My wish is for Vengeance to stick around as its own separate mode. People have said it could replace the almost completely dead (at least on PS/NA) under 50 campaign, and I agree with that.

Vengeance is great for beginners and very casual players. There’s nothing wrong with any of that. However, if this becomes the norm and “real” PvP gets phased out, that would be the of my PvP adventures.

Joy_Division

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

LadyGP wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

2 words: AoE caps.

We've been here before: they were bad back then, and they're bad now. It removes 90% of the skill in the game; if the game decides whom you get to damage at random during your ult combos, it doesn't matter how much skill went into that combo, positioning, timing, etc.

I'd wager the vast majority of players outspoken against Vengeance would be totally fine with it if damage skills weren't capped to 3 targets. It makes Cyrodiil a boring slog.

I agree with you. I'd want to know the "logic" behind how the game determines who in the dmg point takes the dmg (is it lowest health, closest to me, etc).

I do think the AoE caps are needed though... I think they were an attempt to reduce burst of calculations but a byproduct of that change was to also reduce ball groups dps.

I like the concept they are going with but I think they would be better off looking at the heal stacking and shield stacking.

As someone who enjoys running with a ball group I can tell you we are very much OP and there are times where it can feel boring. The most intense moments in a ball group for me are when I see our health bars moving like crazy while we are trying to push and.. it's just a lot of paying attention to where your position is, dmg is, healing is, etc, but this only happens towards the tail end of the fights when 50 people show up.

I wish there was a cap on how many heals/shields we could stack so we could get this same level of excitement with less players. The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

I'd love to see a post vengeance version of cyro where the skills have been reworked to reduce the math behind them (but not stripped to where they are now so it's most number wins), hot/shield stacking caps (so ball groups can be taken down easier), a cc immunity added to people who get pulled by rush of agony (because it performs terrible under heavy lag), and then see how performance is.

IMO there is a way we can reduce the math behind the skills while still giving people proc sets, the sets they love in general, the skills they love, and keep performance relatively good. Maybe we don't have a 700+ person cap (no idea what cap is) but we have 500+.

AOE damage caps do not improve performance. This is not my opinion. That was a public statement made by the lead combat director of ZOS on Live. They are not needed. Were never needed. Won't ever be needed.

As far what Cyrodiil should look like post-Vengeance, it should like Vengeance: a big map full of actual players fighting the epic sort of battles ZOS had always intended Cyrodill to be.

Avran_Sylt

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

2 words: AoE caps.

We've been here before: they were bad back then, and they're bad now. It removes 90% of the skill in the game; if the game decides whom you get to damage at random during your ult combos, it doesn't matter how much skill went into that combo, positioning, timing, etc.

Putting in effort to line up the perfect ult dump just to realize you're doing nothing but pulling a lever on a slot machine when you do feels awful.

I'd wager the vast majority of players outspoken against Vengeance would be totally fine with it if damage skills weren't capped to 3 targets. It makes Cyrodiil a boring slog.

From a solo perspective I understand that. From a coordinated group perspective, no AoE caps on players skills opens up the possibility for coordinated AoE deletion zones within 1 GCD providing little counterplay. (Lets get a 12-man all running no-AoE capped caltrops in Vengence and all toss them at the mag det marked target on 3. Killing just one person? Sure, but killing N people is not). This is not healthy design.

I much prefer Vengeances distinction between players skills and siege equipment: One can be used instantly anywhere with little warning but limited to a number of targets, and the other is deliberate and telegraphed, but potentially devastating given the number of targets hits and subsequent follow-up from allies or tandem siege.

This also creates dynamic gameplay: Players in the backline setting up siege creating a more hostile environment for the opposing ball, who needs to move, either advancing on the siege/retreating or even setting up their own counter-siege even in the field. Dynamic points of interest instead of running around a chokepoint breaking LoS to stay safe before ult-dumping on the timmies that don't understand what your unkillable ballgroup is planning because they're new to cyrodiil and probably will be further jaded from actually engaging in cyrodiil in the future.

ForumBully

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I'd like to see subclassing and other skill lines added, and changed in the same way as current Vengeance skill lines. Keep hots short and not stackable, keep dots short, keep proc sets out.
I have a feeling this is what they're working towards, I just hope performance stays steady to at least get all skill lines (with modifications) included.
I don't care if sets never come back.

Desiato

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

licenturion wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

The average ESO player, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

Let me fix that: The average gamer, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

It isn’t 2014 anymore. Online gaming is mainstream and has become reward driven. That is why live service games come up with new events, battlepasses, maps and modes constantly to keep people their attention.

Most of my mates stop playing Overwatch, Diablo, Rivals etc with me when their battlepass is complete because ‘there isn’t anything to do anymore’. It is just modern gaming and this will never change again.

Same with streams. Most people I know only ‘watch’ Twitch because of the reward drops.

It's not every game. I play Rust when I don't play ESO, and it's full of gamers. It has a loot aspect to it, but the servers wipe between 7 days and one month, so we lose it all in the end anyway. It exists in the context of gameplay.

What it has in common with Cyrodiil is it's an open world PVP game with RPG aspects like crafting and consumable buffs.

Rust also has a vibrant content creator scene. Many talented gamers have made a good life for themselves creating content for it. Many Rust fans mainly watch the content because the gameplay can be so consuming. Like I can only play Rust for about 8-10 weeks before I have to take some time off!

My point is, it's not necessarily every game. Rust is pretty successful. The only reason I don't main Rust is because I'm too old and my body can't take it! I think there are a lot of Rust players like me who would love a performant, accessible Cyrodiil targeted towards traditional PVP gamers.

By accessible, I don't mean easy gameplay. I mean accessible to pvp gamers who wouldn't enjoy pve eso. It seems strange to consider that, but one aspect that makes Cyrodiil so unpopular is that it's completely different than the rest of ESO. So not only does it needs its own gameplay, it also need its own audience.

It's the opposite of easy that is necessary, The most boring part about Vengeance right now is the high TTK. Early Cyrodiil was thrilling because if one wasn't focused, they'd die a quick death. It was thrilling.

Avran_Sylt

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

Desiato wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

The average ESO player, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

Let me fix that: The average gamer, IMO, is completely addicted to rewards.

It isn’t 2014 anymore. Online gaming is mainstream and has become reward driven. That is why live service games come up with new events, battlepasses, maps and modes constantly to keep people their attention.

Most of my mates stop playing Overwatch, Diablo, Rivals etc with me when their battlepass is complete because ‘there isn’t anything to do anymore’. It is just modern gaming and this will never change again.

Same with streams. Most people I know only ‘watch’ Twitch because of the reward drops.

It's the opposite of easy that is necessary, The most boring part about Vengeance right now is the high TTK. Early Cyrodiil was thrilling because if one wasn't focused, they'd die a quick death. It was thrilling.

I honestly think you might get a kick out of IC then. Running around, killing bosses solo, killing PvE adds and/or capturing zones and killing players that try to take these from you. tighter corridors that you need to be both mindful of ambushes and to utilize them for. I don't know how populated it is in your region, but it's a pretty thrilling experience. Especially because you effectively always have a "bounty" on your head of potential Tel Var.

React

Performance wasn’t better and I hate the limited skills/builds.

What performance boost has there been, exactly? Here is what tonight looked like on PC/NA. Multiple second delays on abilities/damage numbers, abilities playing their whole animations without actually firing, rubberbanding, etc. Entire server was complaining of the same issues. This is worse than I've seen it in GH since the patch released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

colossalvoids

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

One main thing for me here is that it reminds me of the PvP there was, even culture wise. Nowadays it seems like there's a camp of people who's fear of imaginary death is so strong that their only option is to build overly tanky and on the other end of the spectrum people who's only metrics for the win is humiliation of the opponent and making them not return to the game again, which is quite not what healthy PvP should look like imo. On Vengeance it's virtually impossible and it's just a PvP, no bs. Very limited at that but the core is more important for me than a decade worth of mistakes that were absent there.

Personally vastly prefer skill expression to the building expression, especially when building one refers to slapping as much as possible proc sets into each slot. But it's clearly just a testing phase, so have no illusions it would somehow stay the way it is. But I do hope that it leads to some restrictions and potentially change of gameplay excluding some more "toxic" options that make general public not stay with the mode. Oh the jolly times of cooperation when julianos, hunding's, shacklebreaker, spriggan's etc. were the viable options.

Performance wise we're already dipping again from just the restoration skill line added, most probably aoe caps are contributing a lot as they stated way, way back. Not sure why those even needed, makes no sense currently. But the healing cap I do welcome, tighter the better, make us target people we want or not want to heal or disable cross healing all together for all I care.

SolarRune

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I dont get the "i dont like the limited build" where ZoS have confirmed at this point the tests are just about performance, we have been told that future iterations will all be working on adding more and more elements back in. People need to stop treating Vengeance as an Event and treat it like the test it is supposed to be - get in, play and feedback.

The big risk for ZoS here is that many people are enjoying Vengeance as is (as there was with the last iteration of Vengeance), and as things are added back in they may start moving the game away from those that are currently enjoying it.

I have enjoyed this iteration as again I have been in some huge battles with no lag what so ever, I was part of a huge defence of a keep last night that turned into a counter attack on another keep. The way it has been presented to this point the large epic battles has very much the focus of what they want to get back into cyro. The weight of things going with just numbers has reduced in this test compared to last time, and I have been in many more situations where the smaller numbers have won things, and 2vs4 or 4vs8 can win, etc the way comps work is just different, and you need to balance the classes different members have to ensure you have the right tool kit for the situation you are in. WIth the numbers so high there are very few situations where these smaller encounters happen.

Varana

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

I seriously doubt they manage (or plan) to bring all the stuff (sets, skills, etc.) from normal gameplay into where Vengeance is heading. If they did, we'd end up ... in normal Cyrodiil.
The abundance and complexity of effects on Live and the restricted choice and functionality on Vengeance is why Live buckles when three players show up together and Vengeance mostly works with the whole server in one keep (slightly exaggerated).

So while the first iteration was way too restrictive, I don't believe that we'll get to have our cake and eat it too. There's no Vengeance performance without Vengeance restrictions.
And I like that.

LadyGP wrote: »

The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

Vengeance is "balancing PvE and PvP differently".

Desiato

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I honestly think you might get a kick out of IC then. Running around, killing bosses solo, killing PvE adds and/or capturing zones and killing players that try to take these from you. tighter corridors that you need to be both mindful of ambushes and to utilize them for. I don't know how populated it is in your region, but it's a pretty thrilling experience. Especially because you effectively always have a "bounty" on your head of potential Tel Var.

I loved IC in 2015 and 2016. In recent years, the only time I took pvp seriously was about a year and a half ago. I played a little in IC and it suffers from all the same gameplay issues as the rest of pvp in addition to performance issues when a zerg shows up.

2.1 (IC) and 2.2 (Orsinium) were peak eso for me. That's the last time I felt they prioritized pvp and core gamers in a significant way. After that the concered effort to make eso end game pve and pvp more accessible to Skyrim players began.

IC was thrilling when it was new, but is pretty boring now.

nbksaske

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

It has been quite refreshing not being pulled by RoA and ult dumped, or hit with free damage sets like Tarnished for example.
Stuck in combat bug hasn't been a thing either, praise talos.

Should Vengeance be the new PvP? No.
Players need freedom of build choice, imagine if we all had to use Julianos and willpower forever, how boring.

I do however believe that only two cyrodiil campaigns should exist one main camp and an under level 50 camp, as having 3+ just splits up the arguably small (depending on platform) player base, so if ZOS can figure out a way to have a huge player cap like we see in Vengeance and build diversity, it would be great!

If some sacrifices have to be made to get there though, I can live with that.

LadyGP

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

React wrote: »

What performance boost has there been, exactly? Here is what tonight looked like on PC/NA. Multiple second delays on abilities/damage numbers, abilities playing their whole animations without actually firing, rubberbanding, etc. Entire server was complaining of the same issues. This is worse than I've seen it in GH since the patch released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1T09FY4YRw

It's interesting while the majority seem to have amazing performance, some don't and it's just as bad as GH or worse.

In the video you are at fare - I was there too and had zero lag - obviously you did. Now the arrius fight later in the night... yeah that got rough but my experience was that it was nothing like GH lag. There also seemed to be the majority of the entire server at arrius so I kind of expect it.

Hopefully they are getting some data to figure out why the edge cases are still having performance issues.

ForumBully

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Wanted to step in and reiterate a few points and provide some clarity.

The point of this test is to work toward a stable Cyrodiil. We have explained this a few times, but this is the test being done in stages. We already had one round of testing with everything stripped back. This is the second test with a few more ability lines added back in.

After chatting with the team, the Vengeance test is not causing instability issues. We are working on stabilizing things, especially for EU Megaservers, but have identified the Vengeance Test is not the cause.

Ideally, we would like to have avoided an event for testing, but we have internal timelines we are factoring in as well. As we've noted before, this is a functional test. We are actively taking learns and seeing what work can be done to make a better Cyrodiil.

LadyGP

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

Varana wrote: »

I seriously doubt they manage (or plan) to bring all the stuff (sets, skills, etc.) from normal gameplay into where Vengeance is heading. If they did, we'd end up ... in normal Cyrodiil.
The abundance and complexity of effects on Live and the restricted choice and functionality on Vengeance is why Live buckles when three players show up together and Vengeance mostly works with the whole server in one keep (slightly exaggerated).

So while the first iteration was way too restrictive, I don't believe that we'll get to have our cake and eat it too. There's no Vengeance performance without Vengeance restrictions.
And I like that.

LadyGP wrote: »

The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

Vengeance is "balancing PvE and PvP differently".

I disagree.

Right now skills don't have morphs, right? So they have to work on all of those still. They can very much so bring back all the usual sets, all the usual skills, CP, etc BUT in a reduced/reworked fashion. At the end of the day it's the "this skill does X, Y, and Z" that is causing the performance issues. They can rework sets/skills/CP so it's now this skill does X... and sometimes Y.

This keeps the performance gains veng has proven while giving diversity to builds. Because right now it's a brutal TTK (time to kill) and Cyro is 100% whoever has the most players in an area wins.

A lot of people are commenting they are having a great time simply because of how big the fights are - which I agree... this (bleep) is epic and I'm having a blast. But, if this is how it was every day from here on out I would very quickly get tired of it. It's pretty much impossible for a small man group to sneack and back cap a keep. The builds are too close, TTK is insane, and players just don't make the impact they used too.

Keep vengence up for a month and I'd put money on it the population charts will show a steady drop. They've got to add some build diversity in there. You "think" you're getting diversity by selecting different skills and what not but really...they all are the same... just with different names to match the classes.

To your last point - no there has been ZERO balancing done to PvP aside from making all the skills pretty much 1:1 copies of each other.

ForumBully

Love both the performance and the simplified skills/builds (like the even field).

LadyGP wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

I seriously doubt they manage (or plan) to bring all the stuff (sets, skills, etc.) from normal gameplay into where Vengeance is heading. If they did, we'd end up ... in normal Cyrodiil.
The abundance and complexity of effects on Live and the restricted choice and functionality on Vengeance is why Live buckles when three players show up together and Vengeance mostly works with the whole server in one keep (slightly exaggerated).

So while the first iteration was way too restrictive, I don't believe that we'll get to have our cake and eat it too. There's no Vengeance performance without Vengeance restrictions.
And I like that.

LadyGP wrote: »

The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

Vengeance is "balancing PvE and PvP differently".

I disagree.

Right now skills don't have morphs, right? So they have to work on all of those still. They can very much so bring back all the usual sets, all the usual skills, CP, etc BUT in a reduced/reworked fashion. At the end of the day it's the "this skill does X, Y, and Z" that is causing the performance issues. They can rework sets/skills/CP so it's now this skill does X... and sometimes Y.

This keeps the performance gains veng has proven while giving diversity to builds. Because right now it's a brutal TTK (time to kill) and Cyro is 100% whoever has the most players in an area wins.

A lot of people are commenting they are having a great time simply because of how big the fights are - which I agree... this (bleep) is epic and I'm having a blast. But, if this is how it was every day from here on out I would very quickly get tired of it. It's pretty much impossible for a small man group to sneack and back cap a keep. The builds are too close, TTK is insane, and players just don't make the impact they used too.

Keep vengence up for a month and I'd put money on it the population charts will show a steady drop. They've got to add some build diversity in there. You "think" you're getting diversity by selecting different skills and what not but really...they all are the same... just with different names to match the classes.

To your last point - no there has been ZERO balancing done to PvP aside from making all the skills pretty much 1:1 copies of each other.

I agree with a lot, but I've seen some outnumbered wins too. Whether you can win against greater numbers in Vengeance seems to be a matter of using siege well (but siege is still too weak IMO) and whether your side has dedicated healers.
Healing seems to vastly outpace damage in this campaign. If it's mob vs mob relying only on self heals, then numbers always wins, but a few extra healers can turn the tide for uneven fights

LadyGP

Love the performance boost (less lag, smooth fights) but hate the limited skills/builds (no customization, samey playstyles).

ForumBully wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

I seriously doubt they manage (or plan) to bring all the stuff (sets, skills, etc.) from normal gameplay into where Vengeance is heading. If they did, we'd end up ... in normal Cyrodiil.
The abundance and complexity of effects on Live and the restricted choice and functionality on Vengeance is why Live buckles when three players show up together and Vengeance mostly works with the whole server in one keep (slightly exaggerated).

So while the first iteration was way too restrictive, I don't believe that we'll get to have our cake and eat it too. There's no Vengeance performance without Vengeance restrictions.
And I like that.

LadyGP wrote: »

The problem is - it would require ZoS to balance pve and pvp differently which I'm not sure their stance on that. Changes to hots/shields would have such a bad impact for the PvE trial community.

Vengeance is "balancing PvE and PvP differently".

I disagree.

Right now skills don't have morphs, right? So they have to work on all of those still. They can very much so bring back all the usual sets, all the usual skills, CP, etc BUT in a reduced/reworked fashion. At the end of the day it's the "this skill does X, Y, and Z" that is causing the performance issues. They can rework sets/skills/CP so it's now this skill does X... and sometimes Y.

This keeps the performance gains veng has proven while giving diversity to builds. Because right now it's a brutal TTK (time to kill) and Cyro is 100% whoever has the most players in an area wins.

A lot of people are commenting they are having a great time simply because of how big the fights are - which I agree... this (bleep) is epic and I'm having a blast. But, if this is how it was every day from here on out I would very quickly get tired of it. It's pretty much impossible for a small man group to sneack and back cap a keep. The builds are too close, TTK is insane, and players just don't make the impact they used too.

Keep vengence up for a month and I'd put money on it the population charts will show a steady drop. They've got to add some build diversity in there. You "think" you're getting diversity by selecting different skills and what not but really...they all are the same... just with different names to match the classes.

To your last point - no there has been ZERO balancing done to PvP aside from making all the skills pretty much 1:1 copies of each other.

I agree with a lot, but I've seen some outnumbered wins too. Whether you can win against greater numbers in Vengeance seems to be a matter of using siege well (but siege is still too weak IMO) and whether your side has dedicated healers.
Healing seems to vastly outpace damage in this campaign. If it's mob vs mob relying only on self heals, then numbers always wins, but a few extra healers can turn the tide for uneven fights

I know what you mean. And to your siege comment... yeah I was getting tired last night and just sat on oils above the gate and never got of but to pop a vigor once and a while. I took treb after treb after treb after treb and was just fine.