Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

wenchmore420b14_ESO · July 1

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Where was this asked ? To get to these results? Who was the audience ?

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

Exactly this. The people who are not even playing pvp regulary are forming the future direction, while it feels like regular pvp´ers are not even asked.

Do a poll on the start feed of everyone logging in, this is the only way to get a relyable fair poll.

Not if you ask in some niche in a forum wich probably only 1% of the playerbase is using. In my 35 man guild im literally the only one in forum.

This survey was (and will be again) e-mailed to every one who participated (and gets e-mails from Bethesda).
(Check spam folders).
As far as PvE tourist, I am a member of a PvP guild and used to PvP regularly. But the state of Cyrodiil the last many years drove me away, so I am not a PvP tourist.
But look at it this way. Even if a percentage ARE PvE'rs who liked the event and if they can fix Cyrodiil, that might get the population back up, right? Take a look at the Feedback threads and see how many are regular PvP'rs responding.
One of the things I missed was having those huge 3 alliance battles for a keep. When was the last time you saw hundreds and hundreds of people in Cyrodiil?
I'm gonna cross my fingers that Wheeler and his team make good use of tis data and fix a lot of what's wrong with PvP, which he discussed in the Twitch stream if any one actually listened to what he had to say about this event.
I want to see more like "The Battle of Chalamo". Huzzah!

Auberon1983 · July 1

PS5/NA

I play a healbot in GH (Daggerfall Covenant). At first I was very “iffy” about Vengeance, but no, after spending some time in there on different characters, exploring the system, etc I can honestly say I love it. Do I want it to replace GH? No, never. I love my GH. Would I like to see a separate Vengeance mode (or close to) also included in campaigns? Yes, yes I would.

This mode has its pros and cons. I’m personally having fun, but I can definitely see why some people hate it with a purple passion. For example I miss my SPC + Ozezan combo in there, but I don’t miss seeing the same old names on the same old builds. This has attracted a lot of dedicated PvE players, and that’s a good thing; Cyrodiil needs some fresh blood.

amiiegee · July 1

lpoki wrote: »

I only saw countless pvdoor🥱

This is what is the blast for these people here.
PvDoor or zerging and let the pure numbers win.

And btw NO, the game was not like this at release.

licenturion · July 1

amiiegee wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

Vengeance is not at all popular with the vast majority of PvP mains. It's just not. It's popular with PvE mains and ZOS.

licenturion wrote: »

I hate PvP normally but wanted to try it and I must say I loved it now that they levelled the playing field

I had some great 1vs1 and me vs 2 fights and I either got away alive or killed them with good positioning and timing of my skills. Fights feel a lot more fair and readable like this now that stuff is actually balanced. Even cheap ganking tricks can be countered now.

I even played with a large group for 2 hours and had loads of fun. If this becomes an extra mode in the future, I will probably play some PvP as well. Time will tell.

There were some moments of lag during big fights.

point proven lol

Which means 98 percent of the player base. Seems they did a good job then. No idea why it is so bad for some that PvE players take part in PvP and actually have fun.

That said, Vengeance is basically manifests PvP as some non MMR variant of skill based matchmaking of other games by putting everyone on the same playing field. Only teamplay, positioning and skill rotation decide the outcome of a fight. Not sets, potions or other stun lock combinations where a lot of people don't even get a chance to react. But just like in other games some people don't like that they aren't get to farm more casual players with the press of 2 buttons.

I hope in the future they just add this mode to Cyrodil so people can choose the mode they prefer. It would be good for everyone and wouldn't harm the regular PvP people in their usual mode. They can just keep doing that they were already doing and have fun too. WIn-win.

Mayrael · July 1

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

Mayrael · July 1

Oh and about that survey—I might be in the minority, but what hooked me on ESO over a decade ago was the build diversity. I love that I can craft a unique character, not just another cookie-cutter class with the same meta gear. That’s the real RPG magic of ESO, and no other game does it quite like this. It’s what keeps me coming back—figuring out new ways to play and seeing the creative builds others come up with. If you strip that away, ESO risks becoming just another generic MMO among countless others. Sure, performance matters, but if you take away our freedom to build characters, why stick with ESO when there are plenty of other games without those issues? If build diversity isn’t a big deal, why not remove it from PvE too and turn ESO into a standard, same-old MMO?

licenturion · July 1

Mayrael wrote: »

If build diversity isn’t a big deal, why not remove it from PvE too and turn ESO into a standard, same-old MMO?

Build diversity has also brought problems to PvE. It is the sole reason why there are so many posts about overland difficulty etc.
The more stuff you introduce the more potential issues you create.

Mayrael · July 1

licenturion wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If build diversity isn’t a big deal, why not remove it from PvE too and turn ESO into a standard, same-old MMO?

Build diversity has also brought problems to PvE. It is the sole reason why there are so many posts about overland difficulty etc.
The more stuff you introduce the more potential issues you create.

No way, I was around when vet zones were a thing, and nobody complained about overland being "too easy." My first time in a vet zone, I got absolutely wrecked, but it pushed me to tweak my build until I could take on entire enemy zergs. Back then, PvE was so epic that I didn’t even need PvP to have a blast. I ran the main story and every zone quest on six different characters and loved every second. That was the golden age of ESO’s PvE. Now? It feels like a mobile game—tap, tap, win, here’s your reward, champ! The vengeance campaign in PvP is more of the same: no reason to earn anything, no need to think about your build, no reason to PLAY the game. It’s just a pat on the back for players who log in, grab their daily reward, play for ten minutes, and go to another game.

licenturion · July 1

Mayrael wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

If build diversity isn’t a big deal, why not remove it from PvE too and turn ESO into a standard, same-old MMO?

Build diversity has also brought problems to PvE. It is the sole reason why there are so many posts about overland difficulty etc.
The more stuff you introduce the more potential issues you create.

No way, I was around when vet zones were a thing, and nobody complained about overland being "too easy." My first time in a vet zone, I got absolutely wrecked, but it pushed me to tweak my build until I could take on entire enemy zergs. Back then, PvE was so epic that I didn’t even need PvP to have a blast. I ran the main story and every zone quest on six different characters and loved every second. That was the golden age of ESO’s PvE. Now? It feels like a mobile game—tap, tap, win, here’s your reward, champ! The vengeance campaign in PvP is more of the same: no reason to earn anything, no need to think about your build, no reason to PLAY the game. It’s just a pat on the back for players who log in, grab their daily reward, play for ten minutes, and go to another game.

Wasn't that kind of gameplay, like a skeever oneshotting you from, what nearly killed ESO?

I get where you are coming from, but in this day and age this kind of gameplay is niche and won't attract a broad audience to keep a live service of this magnitude online. It also has the nasty side effect that after a while everyone is in the same 3 endgame zone and the rest of the game is 'dead content'.

Mayrael · July 1

The expectations killed the early game. Everyone thought that they are getting Skyrim online. Also the buy-to-play model was a big barrier. This conversation’s starting to veer off-topic, though.

Let’s say Vengeance becomes the main PvP campaign. It’s new and exciting, but how long will that last? How soon before players get bored? What’s next? Will ZOS keep adding new features to Vengeance? How often would they need to do that to keep players engaged? And won’t that mess with performance?

Here’s how I’d want Vengeance to work:

No premade templates—players use what they’ve earned in-game.
All PvE skills (morphs, scribing, subclassing, etc.) carry over, but simplified for performance.
No skill cooldowns.
All PvE gear options available, but streamlined like skills.
Champion Points work as they do now (some might need tweaking, but most are just stat boosts anyway).
All consumables (potions, food) function like they do in PvE.

I’m fine with simplifying skills, gear, and passives for better performance, but stripping away the MMORPG elements and turning Cyrodiil into an FPS-style lobby where you just pick a skin? That’s a hard no for me.

Stamicka · July 1

Mayrael wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

I don’t really understand takes like these. For one, it’s just not true that having bigger numbers wins every time. Zerging is definitely more effective in Vengeance than in live Cyrodiil, but this is mostly due to how limited AOEs are in Vengeance. There’s also the fact that there’s no anti zerg mechanics like vicious death either. Even still though, I’ve seen smaller groups beat bigger ones in Vengeance. It’s not perfect, but if they tweak the healing to burst ratio, get rid of the AOE Target limits, and add an anti stack mechanic (maybe through proxy det), these issues could be solved.

I also don’t get how Vengeance is “silly” compared to live Cyrodiil where one light attack can proc an enchantment, a status effect, and a proc set (which can also proc status effects). There’s so much free and effortless damage in live Cyrodiil. It’s much more “pew pew” as you say.

Live Cyrodiil is also the result of trying to get people on more equal footing, a lot of people just don’t see it that way because they haven’t been around long enough. Procs gave damage to those who couldn’t line up burst combos, ultimate animation canceling was taken away to help out certain types of players, bar swapping, blocking, and rolling function differently than they once did, skills are more simple too (look at Merciless Resolve) and the list goes on and on. This method of getting people on equal footing has done the opposite.

Vengeance takes the approach of true accessibility where as long as someone is level 15, they can hop in on any character and be on equal footing to anyone else on the same class. It doesn’t have to be as bare bones and restrictive as it is, but it’s a much better alternative than live Cyrodiil. The level of power difference in live Cyrodiil due to build choices is so ridiculous. There’s no reason to defend it.

Mayrael · July 1

Stamicka wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

[...]

Vengeance takes the approach of true accessibility where as long as someone is level 15, they can hop in on any character and be on equal footing to anyone else on the same class. It doesn’t have to be as bare bones and restrictive as it is, but it’s a much better alternative than live Cyrodiil. The level of power difference in live Cyrodiil due to build choices is so ridiculous. There’s no reason to defend it.

Is there any PvE group that would take a level 15 character for endgame Trial or Hard Mode runs? Why impose rules and restrictions on PvP players that don’t apply to PvE? Why undermine the time and effort PvP players invest in crafting their gear, builds, and character progression?

Mayrael · July 1

PvP is also endgame - you’re up against the smartest, trickiest, and most adaptable opponent out there: another human. To take them on, you’ve got to be ready. Why don’t people demand Trials be open from level 1, 5, or 10? Because they get it — you need gear, skills, knowledge, and practice to tackle them. But for some reason, new players think they should be able to challenge someone who’s sunk 10,000 hours into the game and somehow erase all the time and effort that person put into their character. Why?

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

Mayrael wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

That’s what they luv so much about it – they can be casuals and not do much, just run around in a swarm and feel like they achieved somthing. I agree, it’s kinda dull and boring, and def takes way less skill in Vengeance playmode.

Your last replies (and the ones before too) really brought it to the point. I honestly wish more ppl in the forum were like you. Some of the replies in this thread are just shockingly rude and disrespectfull, with a real bad attitude.

lpoki · July 1

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Where was this asked ? To get to these results? Who was the audience ?

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Just FYI. Results from surveys of first test. Just for fun.

Most of the respondents, though, were mainly PvE tourists checking it out. Nothing inherently wrong with that but there is a big divide between the PvP main players and those who were just stopping by. I would say that PvE main player votes are meaningful only if they actually intend to stick around if they get a Vengeance-style campaign option. But if they are going to vote and then disappear back to PvE then there is an inherent problem with the numbers.

Exactly this. The people who are not even playing pvp regulary are forming the future direction, while it feels like regular pvp´ers are not even asked.

Do a poll on the start feed of everyone logging in, this is the only way to get a relyable fair poll.

Not if you ask in some niche in a forum wich probably only 1% of the playerbase is using. In my 35 man guild im literally the only one in forum.

This survey was (and will be again) e-mailed to every one who participated (and gets e-mails from Bethesda).
(Check spam folders).
As far as PvE tourist, I am a member of a PvP guild and used to PvP regularly. But the state of Cyrodiil the last many years drove me away, so I am not a PvP tourist.
But look at it this way. Even if a percentage ARE PvE'rs who liked the event and if they can fix Cyrodiil, that might get the population back up, right? Take a look at the Feedback threads and see how many are regular PvP'rs responding.
One of the things I missed was having those huge 3 alliance battles for a keep. When was the last time you saw hundreds and hundreds of people in Cyrodiil?
I'm gonna cross my fingers that Wheeler and his team make good use of tis data and fix a lot of what's wrong with PvP, which he discussed in the Twitch stream if any one actually listened to what he had to say about this event.
I want to see more like "The Battle of Chalamo". Huzzah!

The popularity of such monotonous gameplay won't last long.

MasterSpatula · July 1

Most fun since 2014.

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

Auberon1983 wrote: »

PS5/NA

(snip )but I don’t miss seeing the same old names on the same old builds. This has attracted a lot of dedicated PvE players, and that’s a good thing; Cyrodiil needs some fresh blood.

IF the fresh blood stays after Vengeance, im all for it - but i doubt it. Same with MYM, they never stay long.

Pixiepumpkin · July 1

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

Not entirely. I was in full support of the original Vengeance and the week it was active I spent most of my time in there, often well above 8 hours.

This second Vengeance is having massive balance issues (partially becasue the nerfs to facilitate subclassing, are following through in this mode nerfing classes that do not need it here) and secondly because performance, which was the main amazing factor of the previous vengeance, is not the same here. I am getting lag, abilities not firing, I cant even get a solid heavy attack off.

So no, some of our critique against Vengeance is not against Vengrance in and of itself, its that in this iteration things are not working as well as the previous iteration.

Arrow312 · July 1

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

That’s what they luv so much about it – they can be casuals and not do much, just run around in a swarm and feel like they achieved somthing. I agree, it’s kinda dull and boring, and def takes way less skill in Vengeance playmode.

Your last replies (and the ones before too) really brought it to the point. I honestly wish more ppl in the forum were like you. Some of the replies in this thread are just shockingly rude and disrespectfull, with a real bad attitude.

That is the point they just want to run around and get the most for doing nothing. Many of pvp'ers spent days or years to get on the level they are. When we come to PvP many players think they must have the same level like the others but this is wrong. I dont go into a hardmode without knowing the mechanic or without the gear for it. Why do many think this must work in cyro?

SeaGtGruff · July 1

React wrote: »

This iteration of vengeance is awful. There is too much healing now, and with an AOE cap of 3 on damage abilities the whole "greater numbers win" thing has really been reinforced. You have like no chance at all to outplay people when they outnumber you if they've got even the most basic skillset.

A lot of people claimed that vengeance allowed for more "skill expression", but that just isn't the case with this iteration. Really unfortunate to see given how fun PVP has been this patch with the huge damage increase from subclassing.

When you say "too much healing now," are you talking about players healing other players, or do you also mean self healing? Because I was struggling to heal myself enough to stay alive while trying to solo-capture resources and being attacked by the NPC guards. I could heal myself, but it didn't take long to run out of reserves, and I was having trouble recovering my reserves with heavy attacks. The tri-restoration potion helped, but each time you use it you have to wait out the cooldown before you can use it again.

Despite my difficulties, I was able to get 6/8 of the Golden Pursuits on PC EU, and 8/8 on PC NA, mainly because I spent more time playing on PC NA. It was equal parts fun and frustrating, because the population of my alliance was dropping by the time I went to Cyrodiil and we ended up being outnumbered by the other two alliances. It will be interesting to see how it goes on PC EU during hours when my alliance has better representation.

Eisengreifer · July 1

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

moderatelyfatman · July 1

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Most fun since 2014.

Nah, the most fun I've had since 2013.

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

Arrow312 wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Yusuf wrote: »

I think vengeance is great.
The playing field is truly leveled and it kinda reminds of the old times at launch, when nobody was level 50 yet and had no clue how to build their character. I think this is what cyrodiil is supposed be: no unkillable small-scale teams dancing around resource towers, no ball groups, just large zergs clashing and sieging.

Yeah "truly leveled" aka simple math always comes out on top: 3 beats 2, 5 beats 4, and so on. It’s super dull. In the end, the bigger group wins every time, leaving no room for varied playstyles—just everyone pew pews. That’s not just boring, it’s kind of silly. Vengeance might work as an intro campaign, but it’s not cut out to be the main one.

That’s what they luv so much about it – they can be casuals and not do much, just run around in a swarm and feel like they achieved somthing. I agree, it’s kinda dull and boring, and def takes way less skill in Vengeance playmode.

Your last replies (and the ones before too) really brought it to the point. I honestly wish more ppl in the forum were like you. Some of the replies in this thread are just shockingly rude and disrespectfull, with a real bad attitude.

That is the point they just want to run around and get the most for doing nothing. Many of pvp'ers spent days or years to get on the level they are. When we come to PvP many players think they must have the same level like the others but this is wrong. I dont go into a hardmode without knowing the mechanic or without the gear for it. Why do many think this must work in cyro?

Because of ''Acessibility''. And dont get me wrong, acessibility is not a bad thing. Thats what Oakensoul is for, since the mythic was literally made for disabled people.

But nerfing and ruining the pvp game for the pvp players, just so the people who arent able to block or dont get caught by proc sets, is just wrong
.
Im glad some people who cant archive anything in pvp usually have a good time now. But for the audience of these who were loyal to the game because of pvp, after all what this game was going through in last years, this is a slap in the face.

These who worked on their builds, farming sets, grinding skills, putting hours into min maxing. These are punished what for ??

AND YES im aware its only a test for few days. Bad enough thought.

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

MISTFORMBZZZ · July 1

Sylosi wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

But nerfing and ruining the pvp game for the pvp players, just so the people who arent able to block or dont get caught by proc sets, is just wrong

[snip]

Day one player here who played all ways to play in pvp. Lets agree to disagree, its totally fine for me

[edited to remove quote]

Major_Soulless · July 1

For me vengeance is simply boring. Sieging takes forever if you can't use a ram your characters are too slow you can't even check your mail lol.

I get what they were trying to do but the way its ended up it's turned into a numbers game.

At least with ball groups (which I find irritating as hell) they would go into fights 12*30 etc and actually do well.

If there's no variables in PvP what's the point of PvP?

Eisengreifer · July 1

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

None taken. And I totally get your point of view, I really do.
But maybe more players like me would do more PvP if the felt they had more than a snowball's chance in hell to accomplish something there.
I am perfectly okay with full-on PvPers owning me in a 1v1. That's what is supposed to happen.
I'd just like to see that I am at least a temporary obstacle for them, to have some effect.
These last years, it seemed mostly irrelevant if I was there or not, even with a dedicated PvP build and a little eperience (Alliance rank 23).

Wouldn't that be a good thing, more people in Cyro, who then got better over time?

Abelon · July 1

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Eisengreifer wrote: »

Honestly, as a most time PVEer, I haven't had so much fun in Cyro in years.

Thats what we mean. No offense to you, but pvp´ers are punished so pve ´ers who own 90% of the game anyway are pleased.
Feels wrong.

No. The reality is that 90% of the actual PvP players stopped playing PvP years ago, because of the mess that it is. Because of how little attention ZoS gives it. Because of lag. Because of proc sets. Because of a million other things that have been discussed on the forums a million times over. You can't act like "you" represent all the PvPers. You especially can't act that way when the forums are literally flooded with threads of PvPers being unhappy with PvP and demanding changes. PvP in the current state might be all fine and great for you... It's not all fine and great for all the PvPers. And when things aren't fine, what do you do? That's right, you fix them. Sometimes the fix isn't obvious, so you have to try things out and test them, and collect feedback.

So good on ZoS for finally doing something for PvP. Good on them for taking a risk and trying something new despite meltdowns on the forums. Good on them for actually testing it and letting people submit feedback, during which they and us, will see what the stance on Vengeance really is.

Either way though. You guys need to understand that having Vengeance doesn't necessarily mean you can't have normal modes either. Right now is a test week and an exception. But later we could have both. Ask for both, so that you can have your old fun and that other people can have their new fun. Don't try to bury a mode with potential purely out of spite or some weird "old way is better" or the even worse "pvers are ruining mah game!" It's a huge MMO. There's something for everyone.

Arrow312 · July 1

You have a chance to improve when you want it. Dont run every day in a zerg, ask for help, practice like in PvE.

IMO most of the players dont want it. They love to run with the swarm and feel save until exp. players come and kill them.

More players are always a good thing but i dont think they get better over time in a kampagne like this. This is just a number game and nothing more.

Islyn · July 1

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Most fun since 2014.

So would you be happy if this was just how pvp is from now on?