luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

You seem to not understand core issue. It's not just about raw numbers that heavy attack setups can pull on dummy, it's about how those numbers are pulled which becomes really important in real fight scenarios. You say You can pull 90k on dummy which is almost 90% of what is considered high end DPS on fully optimised destro/destro setups.

Lets compare rotations needed to achieve those numbers on those two types of setups.

On one side You have fully optimised setup that needs to keep every uptime tight, perfectly and quickly rotate abilities and light attack inbetween them which at the end results with drawbacks like big consumption of magicka to the point sustaining on dummy is impossible without regen food and in real fights without group support even regen food wont be enough. Furthermore if You will use that food in real fights You will lower Your health pool which will lower Your survivability. At the end You are heavily reliant on others to pull top numbers on that setup. You've mentioned vamplar which adds even more drawbacks into the rotation because he needs to deal with consistant loss of health and lack of healing from others because of shimerring frenzy while playing in meele so one mistake can cost him life. That setup plays high risk high reward game, it's kinda logical he deserves more DPS.

On the other hand You have heavy attack setup that have none of the drawbacks mentioned above. Sustain on that setup is many times better sometimes to the point You wont even care about it. That combined with the fact You can choose double stat food also increases Your survivability in real fights. Rotation is slower and easier to keep up. In real fights that is huge adventage because You have less things to care about. All of that while keeping 85-90% of other fully optimised destro/destro setups.

You claim You could go and solo vSCP trifecta on any other setup. I really encourage You to do so, especially on mentioned by You vamplar. Then You will see how adventageous heavy attack setups are atm. Making no sacrifice in survivability and sustain plus having way easier rotation micromanagment while keeping 85-90% of top DPS possible with all mentioned sacrifices is busted and it's one of the reasons why You were able to complete vSCP trifecta failry easy compared to what would be needed to repeat that on regular setups. The best prove that it's busted is that heavy attack setups started to be real issue in PvP where survivability and sustain are even more important then in PvE. If You can keep those two at decent level while having simple source of high damage that is a recipe for a busted setup in both PvE and PvP.

sure, what would you like me to do it on + i didn't claim any other setup, there are only a few setups that can do this, but they are not limited to HA builds. by the way, you make some valid points but remember, in a lot of situations this build performs badly. It's very reliant on keeping a boss in dots, for sunspire and stuff this is fine but fights like AS this build is [snip], VCR too, awful and more. if the enemy is moving and you can't control where exactly its going, it will suffer immensely. 30% of the HA dmg is coming from standing in crushing wall, and HA/LA dmg is about 40% of the build.

People only use toggle in situations where they can get away with using it safely btw. they are not risking much. Yolna for example doesn't do dmg to any of the players other than flare so its completely fine to toggle away there. vCR+3 is another story, noone toggles there because you'll just die. you're making it seem like these builds don't have any context to them when they clearly do. There are no drawbacks to toggling in like 60% of situations. For getting double-triple my dps in scenarios don't you think thats a little crazy?

90k dps is in a perfect optimal situation. I have never hit even 80k dps in an actual situation with my build. It works well on the dummy, not in situations. you're fine if you hit about 60-75k with this setup in a decently optimized raid. I don't get how you can complain about this build existing. The fact that normal builds rely much less on their aoes to be on a static target makes them far superior.

1 more thing: this rotation isn't easy. it's a dynamic rotation on the dummy and in the fights in vSCP. It wasn't easy to do it. it took me hundreds of attempts, you're severely oversimplifying and making it look like all I'm doing is ''hurr durr hold left click heavy attarkc'' when in reality, all i'm doing is setting myself up to heavy attack 1-2 times per 13 seconds, due to the large amount of dots and aoes you need to upkeep, and this window of 2 heavy attacks can only be achieved if you have very good weaving, since you just barely have wall uptime at the last heavy attack even if you weave perfectly.

Here is a parse example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y54G4mcGr38

[edited for profanity bypass]

luchtt wrote: »

''I am pretty sure in perfect scenario in a good team HA setup could reach 100k+ same as some other setup can reach way higher numbers then on dummy. Real fight scenarios are obviously situational and based on many factors. Almost every PvE build relies heavily on enemy to stand in AoE, it's not like HA setup is forced to recast AoE DoTs when targets moves and regular setup isn't. Both will notice significant DPS drop if they don't.

Regular rotation is still harder. APM needs to be way higher plus there are additional micromanagment issues like keeping magicka low for bahsei. You may call it dynamic because You don't repeat skills at static order but it's nowhere near as dynamic as some other rotations can get. You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

ok i just copied this part cause the quote button option looked a bit weird when i cut out most of it haha.

Very good points, but in these points specifically you are wrong: Ha setup unfortunately is required to recast aoe dots when the target moves. At least 2, to not lose 50% of dmg. you need to have target standing in wall, otherwise u lose about 30% of HA dmg, so big dps loss. also for unweaver at least you need to have casted a stam ability at least every 10s, which I usually do last when I barswap so I have highest uptime of unweaver, since wall uptime is a little bit lower dmg (1351 vs 1685) so it's okay to prioritize unweaver here. When a target moves out of my aoes basically my only dmg comes from HA and light attacks at that points, so my only buffs in effect possibly are: unweaver, infiltrator (1685 + 1685) and slimecraw + kilt, the only active abilities will be for my build at least: engulfing, burning embers, entropy, FoO, trap (which would be hard to hit depending on situation) and scalding, but scalding would be very hard to hit on a target I can't keep wall up on so ill omit it, but could add a little bit extra dps in i guess., in an optimal scenario. (lets just say this scenario would be the 21mil for ease of testing) in my tests, I am able to hit with the same build I showed in the video about 63k dps without wall and eruption up. The reason for this is because of the fact that HA, LA and everything that my sets bonus drops off by like 30% when missing wall. my test was a bit inconclusive since I was figuring out the rotation without wall, but I hope you get the point I try to make. 70k or around there is probably the highest possible without wall buff up permanently. Essentially what im trying to say is, that 90k is a dummy humping figure. Optimally in a lot of situations i peak at about 80k max.

Now:

''You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

Why is this ridiculous when all my 5 piece and wall are all focused on that exact part? I don't really get this part but ill explain why: If you have 2 5 piece bonuses, and another 2 piece bonus (vma staff) that all do 1 thing: add heavy/light attack flat dmg. wouldn't you expect it to be at least 30% of the damage? It's a bit unconventional, so it may seem very out of the ordinary compared to simple weapon or spell dmg stacking, but when you sacrifice all your pieces to buff a single type of damage, better expect that damage to overperform significantly compared to the rest of my damage. In many situations, my HA/LA combination of dmg on cmx confirms I am doing anywhere from 35-45% of my damage purely off that.

Why is that so bad? I don't really get your point. I am a fairly practiced person on this build so obviously im perfoming with it at near the highest possible level with it, and to me it seems pretty underwhelming in the grand scheme of things. any raid lead would be caught dead letting me into any HM prog. (tried it, hit 14k dps... crazy broken build i guess)

This is the way I see it: This build is very strong for the lower ends of damage, where, due to its inherent minimum dmg it's easy to keep up 30k+ dps in a lot of situations. This little bonus is very useful solo due to me being completely self buffed, so I profit from it immensely. After that, in higher ends of damage, it starts to fall off heavily with each increment of 10k dps above 60k. It becomes increasingly harder to get more dps after a certain point, as most builds should. but this build caps out litteraly at 90k dps. There is no denying it, with toggle you can hit like 92 ish but again, spell damage doesn't do anything for this build unless stacked super high obviously. It's a good entry level option and good players can get a lot of value out of its relatively bad set bonuses. For pvp this first point is bad because it gets easy access to high consistent damage, as i previously said I agree with it. what i can't agree with or even see is how you can think this build is OP or something. It's just not. It's decent, good in some situations. that's it. Yeah, it's an easier build due to its inherent easier weave option. Is that bad considering the dps its hitting? Not really. you can reach higher than 90k doing pretty much anything on a conventional build.

In fact, [snip] you can parse higher with this exact same rotation using relequen and pillar of nirn. Yeah. In fact, if I had more time I'd test every single remotely decent set and I am willing to bet some of them will hit higher than 100k with a HA build rotation. You think 90k is high, it's not. anyone can hit 90k with almost any setup and decent weaving. with a fully golded out build with optimized rotation a more expected result for my weaving would be 115 or more on the dummy for that.

I don't know why you continue to argue this [snip] point, but heavy attack builds will continue to be more or less mediocre/roleplay builds other than in solo scenarios until they nerf every single source of damage.

''you're not giving up anything for better survivability and rescources''' yes i am. I am doing exactly that. I'm giving up damage.

[edited for rude/insulting comment(s)]

Lalothen wrote: »

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

luchtt wrote: »

Lalothen wrote: »

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

I think this change would be really good, perhaps a bit too good for players like me who min max the hell out of these builds, it's a welcome change though. I don't think zos intended to nerf these builds for pve specifcally at least. and in pvp i mean be honest. these builds are, if not kind of annoying.. just weak.

I tried to use my main sets, good pvp traits, consulted some good pvpers and it just doesnt work well. It's annoying at best and with no real burst other than random off balance procs you're unlikely to kill anyone with an actual pvp build. The people complaining about these sets specifically are just salty that they can't dodge roll them.. which is honestly fair. You can't even hit pve mobs that dodgeroll. But other than that, just block. It can't really hit more than 4k per tick on even squishy targets unless they're off balance or if you're in a really good situation. I don't think nerfing these sets in pvp will change much if anything. You can still make a good pvp build with these changes with heavy attack as your main damage form due to storm master still existing.

I think heavy attack builds are just a niche option that could use a buff but is otherwise in a fairly good spot balance wise. High sustain, in exchange for damage is fair tradeoff, it's what any other build does, it's just a game of how much sustain you can comfortably live with while dishing out enough damage. I've seen people say that these builds have too much sustain with no drop in damage which is simply untrue. for a heavy attack build it's in a way the opposite, it's more about how much damage can you dish out with a bad spammable/sets and infinite sustain. That's why some builds hit decently high and the vast majority hit low. The sets are bad. 1 line of crit, 2 lines of max rescources is just.. not that good, especially when you consider I don't ever hit above 4.6k spell damage with my build, my other abilities are barely worth using, so the infinite sustain doesn't matter too much when you can't even do half the damage with all those juicy high cost abilities to spam for ''free''. Not to mention that any interrupt to my HA means I lose all my sustain, if I miss 2 heavy attacks finishes, I'm already extremely low mag due to the high cost of abilities you need to use to even compete with the damage, and in a decent of scenarios you can't consistently finish a HA due to roll dodge, target moving etc. so rescource management at the highest level is still important. 640 mag recovery is litteraly below the amount needed to even sustain Eruption's 340mag/s cost lmfaoo. I'm ranting so ill stop haha.

remosito wrote: »

week one patch rarely has any balance adjustement if memory servers right....but old brain...might misremember...

be that as it may.. might misremember this too.. but zos generally has not given much consideration to player feedback when they decided to nerf sets/skills/playstyles into the ground..

basically not hopeful these sets will survive the patch cycle in any useful to pve shape..

Succuby wrote: »

HA was named weakest in PVE and PVP since 2017 year i come to the game, so good players take them and like its play style, makes its own community.

After 4 years pass - no real upgrade was made for us and i can even show video proofs on youtube ! With new CP even with allchanges my DPSdrops down from what i had before even with all HA new skills updates but ok, drop was about 1 k dps so ok, let it be.

But now when a lot of players who play good enough and like thats sets and game style play HA - you say that it is OP.

But what will really change, if the same players will kill the same in random gear - but even random sets, i just show video before ?

You will be happy, that such players just can not play HA ? It is our sets in both PVEand PVP, and as one of people who upgrade all this game style from near beginning i can say - there are builds much more better than this, that i can not do nothing in HA builds.

If i can kill people in random gear OK - i can copy paste builds that is already better and what will change ?

I see no nerf in such builds in this patch.

HA build hit hard, but it fight with honor - it can not run away.

But i see that you most likely love run 10 by 1 around trees, it is more skilled for this game ?

Or kill 2 on 1 by one shot from stealth ?

Do not see it often here by the way, because majority of players here do not even know that assist exist and can not play that way.

They can randomly use buttons and when see some thing they can understand - "beam is easy to understand" - they say - OP nerf it.

HA played from start that way, we do not hide and we can not run away - sets do not let that, very honorable play !

But it will not be a problem to oneshot likeratsother players for exp players.

But ido not want play that way.

Do you know why such builds do not get nerfs ?

Because players are not skilled enoughto nerf it - they do not understand what kill them and can not do ticket !

But you reallydo not need know much to make a topic:

Heavy attack kills us - nerf it.

But the same will start even if as example player willuse inphrlible aether + relequin, it has nearthesame damage as infiltrator !

Next relequin than ?

And if you nerf one sets, whydo you do not nerf the same others ?

Because we do not use them now - we can !
Why is not maelstorm staff nerfed ???

We use it ! It hits a lot, the same as infiltrator - the full set. In PTS it is 2-3 times better than infiltrator !

May be becouse LA players just "do not like this nerf" because they use thesame staff ?

And where is justice in it ???

If you balance - OK than change all the same sets. But if you just change small amount of it by ones groups choise it is not named balance !

It is named GMs help to people they just like more !

It is not much different then draw accounts, characters or top gear to players - that people do not like in other games.

But here it goes even more you draw balance - just for a group of players.

It is not change that is based on any health logick.