Unweaver/Infiltrator/Noble duelist changes. (please revert or change somehow)

luchtt

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Solo build on a 6 mil dummy, two mines.

UU/UI/Pale Order/Maelstrom Lightning/Slimecraw:



Julianos/Mother's Sorrow/Pale Order/Maelstrom Lightning/Slimecraw:



I'm getting about as much DPS on a generic beginners setup not focused on heavy attacks.

Meanwhile,

Aether/Tzogvin/Pale Order/Maelstrom Lightning/Slimecraw:



Relequen/Storm Cursed/Pale Order/Maelstrom Lightning/Slimecraw:



I found numerous combinations in the 49-51k range and one 55k+. I support the scaling change but the sets are way undertuned when I can just run Julianos/MS or probably almost anything else for the same DPS as UU/UI. And I'm still 10k short of my highest setup and 5k short of basically anything else.

I agree with this general sentiment, 1 small problem to me is that you are using the xynode ''heavy attack build'' type rotation which, honestly in my opinion is barely deserving of being called a heavy attack build. As you show in logs, most of the dps comes from the daedric tombs. Either way, even on a DK, your point would still stand very solid, Heavy attack builds can be pretty much anything. The highest parsing HA build i've seen litteraly uses pillar of nirn and relequen, and it parses a decent margin higher than my UU/UI combo at its highest potential. All I see with these nerfs for pve specifically is these sets being forgotten about and just removed from the game essentially.

I think as this thread has shown, HA builds are annoying in pvp. Even seem fairly OP in the hands of good players, for me personally I can't make a concrete opinion of pvp HA builds since its a grey area for me. I think anything can be good in the hands of good players, but I can totally see the reason why people are rejoicing at this nerf in a pvp perspective. For pve, the arguments are pretty... awful to be honest. These sets are barely worth using 99% of situations. The only sensible argument against: ''Change it to a pve only set like bahsei etc'' is that it offers really high base damage for lower dps (with these sets, its pretty hard to hit below 20k dps for example compared to a normal build due to its inherent flat stat bonus to damage) But this argument falls pretty flat in its face as soon as you think about why you're argueing for these builds to be nerfed, which is from what I can see generally ''too easy to deal high dps with'' which is just flat out wrong. You can reach 110k dps without even light attack weaving on a dummy. You can't even reach above 96k dps with a majority heavy attack rotation, and you'll be hard pressed to actually use a 96k build in content due to its weirdness. A more general approach would be my build, which caps out at about 88k dps in the best possible situation. Most situations this build can't push out more than 70k dps, unless you're in a good parse scenario, and even if that is the case litteraly any build focusing on a normal rotation would do much better.

My conclusion would be it's optimal to keep these sets the way they are but make them pve exclusive somehow, due to their inherent power level at lower dps levels which pvp is a perfect example of an environment were flat stat bonuses are good due to the lack of scaling (no 130k dps builds in pvp I think haha)

I really think this comment by you makes it abundantly clear that these sets are just not as powerful as people make them out to be in pve.

ssewallb14_ESO

luchtt wrote: »

I agree with this general sentiment, 1 small problem to me is that you are using the xynode ''heavy attack build'' type rotation which, honestly in my opinion is barely deserving of being called a heavy attack build.

I'd respectfully disagree. While there is considerably less damage from the heavy attacks themselves, a spammable as expensive as tomb is only viable in a sustained rotation because of heavy attacks. We're taking advantage of the sustain from heavy attacks, rather than the damage multipliers like a DK might. Otherwise there's minimal advantage to a heavy attack build on a sorc.

That being said maybe you have a point about how the gear scales, but I wouldn't know because I don't play heavy attack DK. I'd be interested in seeing if your results are similar.

Ascarl

While I am okay with the devs nerfing individual sets, this nerfs destroys the only playstyle that was not centered around LA weaving.

techprince

Arcanasx wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

This is battlegrounds on live. Well deserved nerfs.

Looking at all the damage ticks tells me you are not wearing much crit resistance or have very little resistances overall.

Can you provide your stats with the post so we can gauge better? As its Battlegrounds there is no CP so remove all of that. Thanks

Dont tell us you havent seen 30K heavy one shots. Youtube is full of it.

I've seen 30-40k inferno heavy attack one shots but I haven't seen lightning heavy attacks hit that hard, and those inferno gank builds aren't even using UI/UW/ND; they were using sergeants and elegance, which are both being nerfed as well now. I do agree that these lightning heavy attack builds are currently annoying and overtuned on live atm (especially in outnumbered scenarios), but these sets are getting nerfed way too much, and they aren't going to be worth using for any weapon.

That 16.5k you see on your recap is only going to be around 5.5k next update, and that's pretty sad when you consider that's all you get when you're dedicating 2 5-piece set bonuses and an arena weapon for specifically boosting your light and heavy damage. You're also going to want to set them OB, have empower active, and then go through a 2 second channel while they also have to be in your blockade for max potential. If they're blocking, that damage becomes less than 3k, even less depending on class passives and SnB. There's a reason why you don't really see these builds 1vXing. A 50% damage nerf at most should have been sufficient IMO.

divnyi wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

This is battlegrounds on live. Well deserved nerfs.

Looking at all the damage ticks tells me you are not wearing much crit resistance or have very little resistances overall.

Can you provide your stats with the post so we can gauge better? As its Battlegrounds there is no CP so remove all of that. Thanks

Dont tell us you havent seen 30K heavy one shots. Youtube is full of it.

Heavy oneshots weren't because of lightning heavy, they were because of stacking ultimate heal with simmering frenzy on DK.

Point is, HA's shouldnt be doing this much damage at all, be it on any weapon. HA's should be used for sustain purposes, damage should always be lower. You have LA's for damage purposes.

luchtt

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

I agree with this general sentiment, 1 small problem to me is that you are using the xynode ''heavy attack build'' type rotation which, honestly in my opinion is barely deserving of being called a heavy attack build.

I'd respectfully disagree. While there is considerably less damage from the heavy attacks themselves, a spammable as expensive as tomb is only viable in a sustained rotation because of heavy attacks. We're taking advantage of the sustain from heavy attacks, rather than the damage multipliers like a DK might. Otherwise there's minimal advantage to a heavy attack build on a sorc.

That being said maybe you have a point about how the gear scales, but I wouldn't know because I don't play heavy attack DK. I'd be interested in seeing if your results are similar.

Very good point, although i'd still say it's more of a hybrid. It is true that the heavy attack serves an integral part in the build but it's more for sustain than damage. I think it can still be called a heavy attack build though, but its a less specifically HA one, since its main damage % is not HA. My damage % on my build is about 35-45% all HA, not including light attacks. I don't quite know what you mean by whether it scales but the DPS on single target is generally higher on DK for a pure HA build, using just dots and HA as spammable, but my gameplay involves very tight weaving so it does mean its almost the highest dps possible.

Also, to the guy right above me ''Heavy attacks shouldn't be doing this much damage'' why not? you're sacrificing 3 set bonuses purely to buff your HA and light attack dmg, there really really shouldn't be a reason why you shouldn't get at least this much reward out of basically sacrificing everything for HA dmg. It doesn't even scale high because spell damage absolutely awful for HA and LA dmg, and the only thing that affects it after like 80k+ dps is crit dmg and crit chance modifiers, those are the greatest dmg increases for this build. For pvp, i agree its a bit busted especially considering points ive said before, flat dmg stat = good dmg in low dmg situations like pvp, but in pve they're really just fine balance atm. Just to make sure you understand, you will never get 70k+ dps with a HA build without any LA weaving. That just won't work. Without weaving the highest you could feasibly get I imagine is about 65k ish, which is kinda abysmal (this is assuming perfect rotation with no LA weaves) you'll only get higher numbers with good weaving, like really good weaving, since LA's also account for a very very sizeable portion of your dmg with these sets due to their LA bonus. Sure, my HA and LA are busted beyond belief, but in return for such high dps ticks in pve, ive sacrificed all my spell dmg, crit chance and crit dmg for it. while i'm not heavy attacking phase, (reapplying dot phase during my rotation) ill be glad if i hit like 20k dps lmao.

ssewallb14_ESO

luchtt wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

I agree with this general sentiment, 1 small problem to me is that you are using the xynode ''heavy attack build'' type rotation which, honestly in my opinion is barely deserving of being called a heavy attack build.

I'd respectfully disagree. While there is considerably less damage from the heavy attacks themselves, a spammable as expensive as tomb is only viable in a sustained rotation because of heavy attacks. We're taking advantage of the sustain from heavy attacks, rather than the damage multipliers like a DK might. Otherwise there's minimal advantage to a heavy attack build on a sorc.

That being said maybe you have a point about how the gear scales, but I wouldn't know because I don't play heavy attack DK. I'd be interested in seeing if your results are similar.

Very good point, although i'd still say it's more of a hybrid. It is true that the heavy attack serves an integral part in the build but it's more for sustain than damage. I think it can still be called a heavy attack build though, but its a less specifically HA one, since its main damage % is not HA. My damage % on my build is about 35-45% all HA, not including light attacks. I don't quite know what you mean by whether it scales but the DPS on single target is generally higher on DK for a pure HA build, using just dots and HA as spammable, but my gameplay involves very tight weaving so it does mean its almost the highest dps possible.

Also, to the guy right above me ''Heavy attacks shouldn't be doing this much damage'' why not? you're sacrificing 3 set bonuses purely to buff your HA and light attack dmg, there really really shouldn't be a reason why you shouldn't get at least this much reward out of basically sacrificing everything for HA dmg. It doesn't even scale high because spell damage absolutely awful for HA and LA dmg, and the only thing that affects it after like 80k+ dps is crit dmg and crit chance modifiers, those are the greatest dmg increases for this build. For pvp, i agree its a bit busted especially considering points ive said before, flat dmg stat = good dmg in low dmg situations like pvp, but in pve they're really just fine balance atm. Just to make sure you understand, you will never get 70k+ dps with a HA build without any LA weaving. That just won't work. Without weaving the highest you could feasibly get I imagine is about 65k ish, which is kinda abysmal (this is assuming perfect rotation with no LA weaves) you'll only get higher numbers with good weaving, like really good weaving, since LA's also account for a very very sizeable portion of your dmg with these sets due to their LA bonus. Sure, my HA and LA are busted beyond belief, but in return for such high dps ticks in pve, ive sacrificed all my spell dmg, crit chance and crit dmg for it. while i'm not heavy attacking phase, (reapplying dot phase during my rotation) ill be glad if i hit like 20k dps lmao.

Fair enough, let's just say it's enough of a heavy attack build to feel the nerfs.

I guess I misunderstood your point, I thought you were pointing out that the sets scale differently for a build that utilizes mines and sustain vs one that's pure heavy attack damage, which is correct. I was wondering if you were finding UU/UI to be basically the same DPS as random starter gear on a DK like it is on a Sorc.

Succuby

techprince wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

This is battlegrounds on live. Well deserved nerfs.

Looking at all the damage ticks tells me you are not wearing much crit resistance or have very little resistances overall.

Can you provide your stats with the post so we can gauge better? As its Battlegrounds there is no CP so remove all of that. Thanks

Dont tell us you havent seen 30K heavy one shots. Youtube is full of it.

I've seen 30-40k inferno heavy attack one shots but I haven't seen lightning heavy attacks hit that hard, and those inferno gank builds aren't even using UI/UW/ND; they were using sergeants and elegance, which are both being nerfed as well now. I do agree that these lightning heavy attack builds are currently annoying and overtuned on live atm (especially in outnumbered scenarios), but these sets are getting nerfed way too much, and they aren't going to be worth using for any weapon.

That 16.5k you see on your recap is only going to be around 5.5k next update, and that's pretty sad when you consider that's all you get when you're dedicating 2 5-piece set bonuses and an arena weapon for specifically boosting your light and heavy damage. You're also going to want to set them OB, have empower active, and then go through a 2 second channel while they also have to be in your blockade for max potential. If they're blocking, that damage becomes less than 3k, even less depending on class passives and SnB. There's a reason why you don't really see these builds 1vXing. A 50% damage nerf at most should have been sufficient IMO.

divnyi wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

This is battlegrounds on live. Well deserved nerfs.

Looking at all the damage ticks tells me you are not wearing much crit resistance or have very little resistances overall.

Can you provide your stats with the post so we can gauge better? As its Battlegrounds there is no CP so remove all of that. Thanks

Dont tell us you havent seen 30K heavy one shots. Youtube is full of it.

Heavy oneshots weren't because of lightning heavy, they were because of stacking ultimate heal with simmering frenzy on DK.

Point is, HA's shouldnt be doing this much damage at all, be it on any weapon. HA's should be used for sustain purposes, damage should always be lower. You have LA's for damage purposes.

Idea was stuck some effects on HA or 1 skill and use it as spammable. Not for pve not for pvp build will not get much damage with a little changes, only one thing was bad that it was like business card for HA player.

But now must or must not HA do damage , but you will just get this: 140k + ha crits with some combinations of set on fire stuff

Brrrofski

[snip]

It didn't get nerfed because of PvP though.

Those heavy attack builds were not using these sets

This was probably nerfed because people were showing videos of them soloing vet dungeons with heavy attack builds.

[edited to remove quoted post]

Succuby

Brrrofski wrote: »

[snip]

It didn't get nerfed because of PvP though.

Those heavy attack builds were not using these sets

This was probably nerfed because people were showing videos of them soloing vet dungeons with heavy attack builds.

Fire staff that build is buffed ! Because now it can use old sets + this one.

[edited to remove quoted post]

luchtt

Brrrofski wrote: »

[snip]

It didn't get nerfed because of PvP though.

Those heavy attack builds were not using these sets

This was probably nerfed because people were showing videos of them soloing vet dungeons with heavy attack builds.

That doesn't get stopped by these changes + it has been going on for years? My tests have been litteraly soloing vet dlc HM's with new setups compared to my old ones. There is just no way it got nerfed because of that. Although the main problem is is that we're argueing the cause in the first place because the devs give no explanation.

[edited to remove quoted post]

Succuby

The same it can be soloed in other sets, so ...
https://youtu.be/aeDsOVw9wrE
https://youtu.be/uop8VWld4lI
https://youtu.be/jje9cIT6Dh8

Low skill players just get tail about sets to not fill themselves to weak But no need to hide it anymore.

Cancel membership and do not care anymore.

To much balance changes, set reworks, race reworks, skills do not work and etc here for me May be after 1-2 years here will be some balance, but for now ... no hope.

So just play another game for now.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Can the dev plz post a patch note to explain why HA got nerf ?

Katlefiya

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Can the dev plz post a patch note to explain why HA got nerf ?

This might be the explanation you are looking for (from here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7522498/#Comment_7522498)

Sets like this one have all been adjusted off flat damage modifiers on these attacks due to the nature of how these values interact with additional bonuses, causing them to double dip in effects while other modifiers do not. Rather than outright nerfing these values to the point where they would never eclipse other bonuses, we've converted them into a bonus that can still be increased with some effects such as Major Brutality or Sorcery.

Lalothen

Sets like this one have all been adjusted off flat damage modifiers on these attacks due to the nature of how these values interact with additional bonuses, causing them to double dip in effects while other modifiers do not. Rather than outright nerfing these values to the point where they would never eclipse other bonuses, we've converted them into a bonus that can still be increased with some effects such as Major Brutality or Sorcery.

They need to understand that double-dipping into effects is how builds focusing on these 5-piece bonuses currently "compete" with those utilising other dps-oriented 5-piece bonuses - and I use that term loosely because peak DPS using these sets effectively caps out below 100k, which currently is 15-20k behind LA builds on live, and even with no changes to how they are on live, they would likely lag a further 5-10k behind on PTS based on the hybrid LA build numbers we're seeing.

If they're set on this course, then the sp/wp bonus needs to be doubled against non-player characters - probably more actually - if they're to retain their current overall medium-high peak performance in PvE. Otherwise we can just consign them to the dustbin for all scenarios tbh.

Succuby

7.3.3 = no answer )

remosito

Succuby wrote: »

7.3.3 = no answer )

par for the course

Iriidius

Have testet heavy attack dk in Cyrodiil. Many Players dont even go into defense/block ifi heavy attack them, they just run threw wall of elements and trade blows and win at the end because a normal mag dk/templar seems to have lower time to kill than a heavy attack dk.

Succuby

They named it skilled play so ... for real skill game - just use other games Skilled game and teso is 2 different thingth

Fennwitty

Apologies for not following the thread throughout PTS.

Are these sets even useful for a "light attack" focused build? Or pure garbage for all purposes?

remosito

Fennwitty wrote: »

Apologies for not following the thread throughout PTS.

Are these sets even useful for a "light attack" focused build? Or pure garbage for all purposes?

as far as I can see they are now utterly useless for all builds. Well.. unless your usecase is hampering yourself by using underperforming sets..

before nerf they were not top but not [snip] either for a few builds..

[snip]
[edited for profanity bypass & minor bashing]

ssewallb14_ESO

Fennwitty wrote: »

Apologies for not following the thread throughout PTS.

Are these sets even useful for a "light attack" focused build? Or pure garbage for all purposes?

They're OP for my inventory clutter build, I'm losing a solid 15+ slots for each set.

Lalothen

I'll be interested to see if anyone carries on using these sets after U33 goes live; I know I certainly won't. I'll probably hold onto them after I declutter my bank & chests - on the remote off-chance of a review at some point - because I'm not about to chuck away all the time and resources spent acquiring, transmuting & golding the items (since I farmed them all the traditional way before stickerbook & reconstruction were a thing).

Ascarl

I can't believe that I farmed Arx adn BC a bazillion times just to decon what I got from there.

Hescrow

Crystal weapon + imbue weapon + undaunted infiltrator + overload ( + molag kena) = OS ( One Shot and not One *** 😅)

Right?

gariondavey

Hescrow wrote: »

Crystal weapon + imbue weapon + undaunted infiltrator + overload ( + molag kena) = OS ( One Shot and not One *** 😅)

Right?

Crystal and imbue no longer stack

Hescrow

gariondavey wrote: »

Hescrow wrote: »

Crystal weapon + imbue weapon + undaunted infiltrator + overload ( + molag kena) = OS ( One Shot and not One *** 😅)

Right?

Crystal and imbue no longer stack

Yes it stacks if crystal casted before imbue.
Not stack if crystal after imbue.

Succuby

I do not play teso anymore so ... :

https://youtu.be/s_wkhK2C-jk

This go life (build is not even optimized)

In pvp with some changes it will just 1-shot, in pve is not really usefull.

With such game changes, such balance, not working skills for years, game degrodation to even more cazual game (CP 2-0, new blue+green= def...tion mana "gibridizations"), not even post a reason why - with no information on some bugs, mistakes !!! even in patch notes - i can say TESO really was the best game 4-/-2 years ago, now it is not.

I can not even give advice to some one to start play in it. Such bad it becomes !

But ... it is always some good in it.

Now i am good looking blond spear master in another game I think she do not look worse than my TESO dunmer

Ok Ok not dark elf from l2 of course, but ... as waifu with some beer - can be exeptable

But just remember what you say - HA is for low skilled players, weak sets for "pve and pvp" bla bla bla.

It was your words, and only after 4+ years you nerf it - because - current players can not overplay it.

Just think how cazual player base of this game become !

Cazuals do not play 1 game long, just remember my words.

And skilled players already go away a long time before that.

https://youtu.be/nD9WM3qqhYA

gariondavey

Hescrow wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Hescrow wrote: »

Crystal weapon + imbue weapon + undaunted infiltrator + overload ( + molag kena) = OS ( One Shot and not One *** 😅)

Right?

Crystal and imbue no longer stack

Yes it stacks if crystal casted before imbue.
Not stack if crystal after imbue.

@Hescrow how do you know this?
Crystal would normally be cast before imbue. Why would they disable the combo nobody does but still allow the combo everyone does?