Unweaver/Infiltrator/Noble duelist changes. (please revert or change somehow)

luchtt

Undaunted infiltrator/unweaver and Noble duelist changes need to either be significantly buffed or changed back. There is now pretty much 0 reason to run these sets. Currently the only reason is because they scale well on lower dmg since its a flat increase, so you can do a lot unbuffed, but it had a hard cap. but now that is gone, and running any other spell damage buffing set will do much more dmg with the same rotation, making these sets completely worthless now. there is already very little reason to run these sets, please don't make them completely trash

I don't know exactly the reason of these changes but I just tested my 90k parse build, it can now hit with a pretty good parse (about 0.050 weave average) only 66k now on the trial dummy. Solo it's down from 57k to 44.5k ish. Significantly worse. this change is really making these builds even more niche than they already were. if these changes were for pvp, can you please make them apply only for pvp or something similair, because if this goes live these sets are, again, completely worthless.

VoidMech

Allowing for build diversity is what you would like to encourage with the new changes however the changes to these sets make them so weak as to be pointless, effectively killing off a viable DPS build. Reconsidering these changes is a must in order to ensure that the playstyle remains playable. 90k dps is an acceptable top end for a high sustain setup however 66k is so low as to be barely allowed into basically any vet trial.

MashmalloMan

They didn't state it, but this was done because of issues with Shock Heavy attacks ticking 4x for the damage bonus which made fighting these builds in pvp a nightmare. Maybe the damage increase should be buffed, but they won't revert it to what it was because it made Shock/Resto heavies get far more from it than any other weapon which only does 1-2 hits. The core of the combat of this game is suppose to be based on spending and managing resources, but with those builds you just held 1 button down for infinite sustain and melted people 28m away.

The alternative would of been to fix the issue of it stacking like they had done in the past, but then for instance you'd only get the boost of damage on the last tick of your shock heavy... but I guess there is more to the decision than that. Either way, they were overperforming.

Perhaps, like Proc Sets, they wanted there to be a scale of power instead of just providing free damage. Since it just boosts your character sheet now, you will actually need to have all your gear stronger instead of the 1 set bonus sky rocketing what you can do with a shock heavy. I'm not sure.

A couple k for your base damage does seem pretty low. People don't even use VMA DW anymore and that buffs your dots by 2k too. 3k was the sweet spot back then, maybe something should be done in that regard.

DerpyBossGamer

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They didn't state it, but this was done because of issues with Shock Heavy attacks ticking 4x for the damage bonus which made fighting these builds in pvp a nightmare. Maybe the damage increase should be buffed, but they won't revert it to what it was because it made Shock/Resto heavies get far more from it than any other weapon which only does 1-2 hits.

They were annoying to deal with, but not terribly difficult. The problem is in the 40k heavy attack gankers, but these 3 sets were not related to that at all. Queen’s elegance was rightfully nerfed for it’s role in that, but all the other sets making that possible were untouched, which included substitutes that are nearly identical to elegance.

DerpyBossGamer

After the mist form removal from pve and now this, it feels like they are trying to kill dungeon solo builds.

MashmalloMan

DerpyBossGamer wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

They didn't state it, but this was done because of issues with Shock Heavy attacks ticking 4x for the damage bonus which made fighting these builds in pvp a nightmare. Maybe the damage increase should be buffed, but they won't revert it to what it was because it made Shock/Resto heavies get far more from it than any other weapon which only does 1-2 hits.

They were annoying to deal with, but not terribly difficult. The problem is in the 40k heavy attack gankers, but these 3 sets were not related to that at all. Queen’s elegance was rightfully nerfed for it’s role in that, but all the other sets making that possible were untouched, which included substitutes that are nearly identical to elegance.

I've heard this comment about those Shock Heavy stacking builds for years, there has been countless debates about it so I won't get to into it whether or not people using those builds are considered OP or easy to deal with.

In my experience seeing a few top MMR players using those builds for upwards of 1-2 years (even though it only recently became popular because a few youtubers).. those players typically dominate every match and a part of it is because they can stack damage stats without ever needing to invest into sustain, and if they play behind a group with a Clown/Vampire ult for oh [snip] moments.. unkillable too. 28m range, no cost, undodgable. In the right hands, it's very strong.

It's a shame this effects the PVE builds, I know a large chunk of the people who use it are due to accessibility issues or problems with keeping up with a typical 1s rotation between Light Attacking and Skills. It was nice that there was a slower rotation they could use to still get competitive DPS so I hope they buff it a bit if it's really costing OP 50% of their DPS.

And to your other point, these sets weren't that powerful for Gankers, a Ganker is better to use a burst set (which like you said have not been touched).. A few extra k on a heavy is nothing compared to the 5-10k proc sets. These sets are mostly strong for people with Shock Staves in sustained preasure, not burst (because of the long channel giving 4 ticks). This is why I presume they were changed to offer your character stats instead of a flat buff, it's the only logical answer I can think of. Especially since they've become more popular recently, I imagine complaints have risen.

[edited for profanity bypass]

EF321

Heh, just finished HA build for DK, wanted to try it since there is so much talk about it


Was an interesting playstyle...

Kesstryl

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

SkaraMinoc

A fully optimized DK Heavy Attack build can melt players in 2-3 heavy attacks. I saw it happen a few days ago where this Former Emperor DK went something like 27-1 in Team Deathmatch.

I started farming sets to try a build but it sounds like it's not worth it anymore.

remosito

Kesstryl wrote: »

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

Not cool to screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities. HA builds were always recommended when people with such unfortunate troubles asked for builds to make their lives easier....

Vaoh

remosito wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

Not cool to screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities. HA builds were always recommended when people with such unfortunate troubles asked for builds to make their lives easier....

I don’t think they buffed/nerfed one of the hundreds of sets in their game just to “screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities”.

What a strange takeaway

SirLeeMinion

What a shame that they are again lowering the damage accessible to people that struggle with LA weaving. This was always a build I recommended to older players and those with wrist pain. It was one I used myself. Though my DPS was always about 30-40% better with a near-meta build, this build didn't cause lingering pain after a single vMA or trial run.

We all know that nothing gets changed on the PTS due to player feedback, so I guess it's simply: RIP.

remosito

Vaoh wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

Not cool to screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities. HA builds were always recommended when people with such unfortunate troubles asked for builds to make their lives easier....

I don’t think they buffed/nerfed one of the hundreds of sets in their game just to “screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities”.

What a strange takeaway

I didnt mean to imply that was the reason for it. Just that it is the result of the change.

katorga

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

A fully optimized DK Heavy Attack build can melt players in 2-3 heavy attacks. I saw it happen a few days ago where this Former Emperor DK went something like 27-1 in Team Deathmatch.

I started farming sets to try a build but it sounds like it's not worth it anymore.

I don't think a DK HA build uses these sets, (and should be able to melt someone in 1 heavy attack, not 2-3).

But super interesting change. If impacted by major sorcery and medium armor and sorc passives, you can get around 12k+ spell damage for light attacks. Wonder what that does to overload? DK would be interesting too....class buffs and CP, net you around 97% flat increase to heavy attack damage combined with 12K spell damage for firestaff heavies?

PVE doesn't matter. I used the infiltrator/unweaver/VMA Lightning as my easy farming sets for years, but reality is 73% crit + 100+% crit damage with mother sorrow/medusa/VMA does significantly more damage with heavies and buffs my healing through the roof. Both

ssewallb14_ESO

If you run a lightning HA build in PvE then worry not, the playstyle is far from dead.

It seems like UI/UU are though. Tzog already edges out both sets on live, and I'm seeing a ~25% DPS loss on heavies alone from UI. More testing is needed but it's looking like stacking HA damage won't be the best option, even for HA focused builds.

xStaticx

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

robpr

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

If you run a lightning HA build in PvE then worry not, the playstyle is far from dead.

It seems like UI/UU are though. Tzog already edges out both sets on live, and I'm seeing a ~25% DPS loss on heavies alone from UI. More testing is needed but it's looking like stacking HA damage won't be the best option, even for HA focused builds.

You can even run Relequen Lighting Staff, each heavy applies 4 stacks of it.

MashmalloMan

xStaticx wrote: »

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

It's not that skill specifically, many classes can use these sets. The most common being:

Necro's (15% dot damage)
DK (50% Heavy attack damage)
Sorc (5% Shock damage)

The flat damage of the set was applying 4 times, instead of once with the Shock channel which is why it was so powerful. It doesn't make any sense for 1/6 weapons to get 4x the effect of a set.

Sunderflame (back when it behaved differently), use to buff Dual Wield heavy attacks for each hit, so 2x instead of 1x. This was nerfed in a patch like 2-3 years ago and they stated it was never suppose to double dip. The only reason they didn't specify the change being made because of Shock Heavy's was because the set had Stamina based stats so no one used it back then when scaling wasn't dynamic.

By changing it from a flat value, to a stat on your character sheet, the Shock heavy's automatically account for a coefficient that applies your damage done properly over the 4 ticks instead of each tick.

This is why I think they changed it despite not adding dev comments. If other sets are outpacing them, they need a drastic buff. What would be the point in a heavy rotation.

Nebula_DooM

To add on to @MashmalloMan, in testing the sets that provide flat damage like elegant and the light/heavy attack sets. Lightning and resto staves would benefit 4x the amount of those % modifiers rather than only once than some people presume e.g ((tick 1*1.5)+(tick 2*1.5)+(tick 3*1.5)+(final tick*1.5)) 1.5 being the 50% increase in heavy attack damage that dks can get. This is not considering the fact that major and minor berserk and even critical damage affected each of those ticks which could get you some insanely high damage. I had a clip of testing a heavy attack templar getting a 20k tick against my friend when we had made a heavy attack templar ganker. This was with the old cp however (rip ghost-ganking)

As for elegant, it was destined to come when we used the same principles for the shock heavys to molten whip and managed to deal a constant 41k whip against my friend's testing magsorc that had 33k of both resists and this was without corrosive armor. It didnt even matter if we had corrosive or not.

But yeah while it is sad that these sets were changed its def for the better imo

luchtt

Just making another comment, Xynode said on his stream very arrogantly that ''this is a buff to easysorc whether i make a video on it or not'' this is not true, this is a pretty significant hit on the damage of those types of builds too, so don't be pursuaded by someone who hasn't even tested these things. I assume he saw that the number simply increased and assumed it was a buff, not giving much thought on how spell damage affects heavy attacks significantly less than a flat stat bonus. (1:1 comparsion)

MentalxHammer

Heavy attack builds were overpowered and virtually uncounterable in PvP. This is a good and much needed change.

katorga

MashmalloMan wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

It's not that skill specifically, many classes can use these sets. The most common being:

Necro's (15% dot damage)
DK (50% Heavy attack damage)
Sorc (5% Shock damage)

One of these things is not like the other. But sorc is really 15-6% based on missing health of target. My experience is that sorc is stronger than necro for lightning heavies using infil/unweaver/VMA lightning.

PVP, will be very interesting. DK Firestaff gank builds are A Thing right now. This change may make that stronger than before.

Fizzyapple

MashmalloMan wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

It's not that skill specifically, many classes can use these sets. The most common being:

Necro's (15% dot damage)
DK (50% Heavy attack damage)
Sorc (5% Shock damage)

The flat damage of the set was applying 4 times, instead of once with the Shock channel which is why it was so powerful. It doesn't make any sense for 1/6 weapons to get 4x the effect of a set.

Sunderflame (back when it behaved differently), use to buff Dual Wield heavy attacks for each hit, so 2x instead of 1x. This was nerfed in a patch like 2-3 years ago and they stated it was never suppose to double dip. The only reason they didn't specify the change being made because of Shock Heavy's was because the set had Stamina based stats so no one used it back then when scaling wasn't dynamic.

By changing it from a flat value, to a stat on your character sheet, the Shock heavy's automatically account for a coefficient that applies your damage done properly over the 4 ticks instead of each tick.

This is why I think they changed it despite not adding dev comments. If other sets are outpacing them, they need a drastic buff. What would be the point in a heavy rotation.

This is a great explanation of what was happening and also why I think they made the change. I know they were a nuisance in PVP but in the top games everyone knew who was running them and even with a 30-0 score those players were never taken seriously. It's still nice to see the change in PvP but sad in PvE.

etchedpixels

Vaoh wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

Not cool to screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities. HA builds were always recommended when people with such unfortunate troubles asked for builds to make their lives easier....

I don’t think they buffed/nerfed one of the hundreds of sets in their game just to “screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities”.

What a strange takeaway

Still not cool. Imagine if a government body or business said "Oh we changed the stairs to fix a minor problem, it's a shame that none of the disabled can use it any more but that wasn't the goal"

divnyi

The change looks interesting and more balanced than it was before, but it looks like they need to adjust the number or those sets would bite the dust forever.

MashmalloMan

etchedpixels wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

HA attack builds were the only way I could access a DPS role in a PVE environment because I have low APM due to carpal tunnel syndrome and can't light attack weave without burning out my wrists and being in such significant pain that I can't play for weeks. Whelp, people who can't or don't LA weave can't have nice things. Another thing nerfed in PVE becaue of PvP

Not cool to screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities. HA builds were always recommended when people with such unfortunate troubles asked for builds to make their lives easier....

I don’t think they buffed/nerfed one of the hundreds of sets in their game just to “screw over ppl with injuries and disabilities”.

What a strange takeaway

Still not cool. Imagine if a government body or business said "Oh we changed the stairs to fix a minor problem, it's a shame that none of the disabled can use it any more but that wasn't the goal"

Thats a gigantic stretch. Your example is for the real world and 100% prevents someone from accessing the second floor of a building. They're esentially kicked out from the establishment entirely.

This is a video game, there are alternative set combinations that can still enable you to play a heavy attack build in pve to reach similar competitive numbers, you can still reach the "second floor".

It's still a damn shame, don't get me wrong, but I'm sure people will be willing to help these players find an alternative that does similar values if they don't manage to find a way to buff it for pve, but not put it back into the broken state it was for pvp.

NyxWrench

Can someone explain what exactly was changed to make these sets perform worse? The patch notes say that their damage values were increased, so what happened that means they do less damage now?

divnyi

@NyxWrench it was additional damage per hit, now it's WD/SD.

MashmalloMan

NyxWrench wrote: »

Can someone explain what exactly was changed to make these sets perform worse? The patch notes say that their damage values were increased, so what happened that means they do less damage now?

It's all been explained above, but the TLDR is:

Live: Adds 1685 Damage Done to your Light and Heavy attacks.

PTS: Adds 2014 Weapon and Spell Damage to your Light and Heavy Attacks.

Live adds on top of your damage done, a flat value on every tick of damage you do with a heavy attack that gets further boosted by other modifiers like Damage Done from CP or passives. While pts just adds to your base weapon and spell damage instead of a flat value.

• 1H + Shield, 2H, Flame Staff, Ice Staff, Bow = 1 tick of damage so +1685 damage done from the set.
• DW = 2 ticks of damage so +3370 damage done from the set.
• Shock Staff and Restoration Staff = 4 ticks of damage so +6740 damage done from the set.

So lets say you had 4k Weapon/Spell damage at base, by using the set with the changes, you would still have 4k Weapon/Spell Damage, but whenever you do a heavy attack, the heavy attack would calculate it's damage as if you had 6k Weapon/Spell Damage - which means, the Shock Heavy that is already designed to calculate and spread out it's damage calculation from a low amount on the first 3 ticks to a high amount on the last tick is going to do that same thing with your new 6k Weapon/Spell Damage.

On live, this is not the case, Shock Heavy attacks would quadruple dip into the set. I believe @Decimus calculated that in order to get roughly the same amount of damage from Live, the set would need to give about 5.8k Weapon/Spell Damage to heavy attacks.. If thats true, then the set was basically nerfed to 35% of its power which seems to be the case based on some comments here.

Some other sources of damage done bonuses in the game (apply to all damage though):

• DK's Stagger proc from Poop Fist = 195
• Set - Draugrkin's Grip = 617
• Set - Dragon's Appetite = 225

James-Wayne

I understand the change was for PvP but for PvE players its been totally destroyed.

My son loves to play the lightning heavy attack builds because 1) coordination isnt there yet (he is 7) and 2) our ping in Australia is really bad so spamming one skill is easier on the performance

Succuby

It is (R.I.P.) to this sets now. With no real reason for that.

Now this sets:
1) Give less dps output than 2 item set (maelstorm stave as example)
2) This sets was compared to sets like Relequin or Pillar Of Nirn - now they are 3-4 times weaker !!!
3) It was the first and biggest nerf of this sets from 2016+ year, but sets was never overperforming, now it is absolute garbage !
4) A lot of topic about hibridization, but truth - LA get more sustain, becouse now can use stamina/mana skills, but all other styles get nerf.

Reality is - no realy different builds, only 3 the same sets and same buttons only be possible !

Tanks lose procs, now all sets and skills are the same. No real build craft - now teso is like standart Korean mmorpg - and not even from top of the list.

And you say about how different sets and builds now are. Lol, what a shame.