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Unweaver/Infiltrator/Noble duelist changes. (please revert or change somehow)
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TheGeordieKitten wrote: »High-skill playstyles should be rewarded with high DPS, not builds that hold left click. This is a fair balance change, not a nerf.
yet on my templar using basi and deadly, I can get 90k+ dps using a simplified three skill rotation, essentially just jabbing my life away dealing high aoe damage and having good incoming healing ? high damage HA set ups are not significantly different in 'skill requirement' from many other set ups, they don't simply 'hold left click', they replace a typical spamable with a heavy attack.
So the essential difference between a 'traditional' high skill light weave set up and a HA set up is, that one light weaves between a spamable and buffs/dots while the other light weaves between buff/dots, and replaces their spamable with heavy attacks and when comparing two fully optimised set ups the replacement of a spamable for heavy attacks is typically between 10-25k on a dummy (thats on a dk- it is a larger difference on other classes) depending on the players weaving. In content these numbers vary drastically depending on the fight, but its safe to assume you would be looking at an absolute minimum dps loss of 10k dps in exchange for better sustain. Opting to increase sustain via food rather than using a HA set up, does not impact dps but rather survivability. either way, better sustain requires a trade off and currently I think these trade offs are reasonable, however changing these sets just limits the options to over come sustain because the reduction in dps is now to large of a compromise to make in a significant amount of harder content in the game. weather or not the compromise in dps for HA sustain is too big or too small is ultimately gonna come down to personal opinion, but the argument that heavy attacks set up dps should be nerfed due to build simplicity just falls flat for me, there are so many one bar, or 2/3/4 button skill set ups that are ridiculously simplistic and sets that give flat damage with no complexity required (i.e pillar of nirn) and I don't see why it would be reasonable to nerf those either, as they make similar compromises in dps for simplicity's sake.Edited by Lenny_linguine on February 4, 2022 12:46AM7 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I think people are missing a few things here when comparing 90k dps with these 2 sets vs these 2 sets.. DPS is an average of your total damage per second, an average in pve stetched out over 2-4 minutes on a dummy.
So you're asking, why nerf something that behaves worse than something else because the DPS is less..
What is actually important here is how that average is achieved.
Example: Using these 2 sets, you're going to see a gigantic increase in damage for your shock heavies, but a decrease in everything else. Lets say a parse shows 40% of your 90k dps is from heavy's..
Now switch to something more meta with a heavy attack build that people have suggested, that gets higher to like 95k.. Well look at combat metrix again and you'll see your damage is no longer mostly shock heavy's, it's averaged out on to ALL of your skills because they're all being boosted. So as an example, your shock heavy does 15% instead, but now your dots, spammables, whatever, are all boosted by 5-10% each.
This is the problem. Shock heavies were disproportionately outpacing other sources of damage. DPS does not matter in a PVP scenario where this decision was most likely made for. Burst is king. You can have an absolute crappy DPS parse of 50k over 3 minutes, but in that first 3 seconds what really matters. Testing your builds for PVP and DPS on a dummy are almost never relevent unless you're looking at the Burst window.
This is especially important because I mean.. does a mob care if you have infinite sustain? No, of course not, but a PVP build requires the player to make choices about not only DPS, but sustain, burst, mitgation, utility, etc. Bar space is tight, when you can rely on something like holding down left click to do most of your burst, then you free up bar space for more utility based skills as well. It's a snowball effect, just looking at a metric like DPS is misguided.
But yeah, I repeat my original idea in case someone takes this post the wrong way, I'm all for it working well in pve, but properly..
2.5k weapon/spell damage to light/heavy attacks, doubled to non player characters.PC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit2 -
MashmalloMan wrote: »I think people are missing a few things here when comparing 90k dps with these 2 sets vs these 2 sets.. DPS is an average of your total damage per second, an average in pve stetched out over 2-4 minutes on a dummy.
So you're asking, why nerf something that behaves worse than something else because the DPS is less..
What is actually important here is how that average is achieved.
Example: Using these 2 sets, you're going to see a gigantic increase in damage for your shock heavies, but a decrease in everything else. Lets say a parse shows 40% of your 90k dps is from heavy's..
Now switch to something more meta with a heavy attack build that people have suggested, that gets higher to like 95k.. Well look at combat metrix again and you'll see your damage is no longer mostly shock heavy's, it's averaged out on to ALL of your skills because they're all being boosted. So as an example, your shock heavy does 15% instead, but now your dots, spammables, whatever, are all boosted by 5-10% each.
This is the problem. Shock heavies were disproportionately outpacing other sources of damage. DPS does not matter in a PVP scenario where this decision was most likely made for. Burst is king. You can have an absolute crappy DPS parse of 50k over 3 minutes, but in that first 3 seconds what really matters. Testing your builds for PVP and DPS on a dummy are almost never relevent unless you're looking at the Burst window.
This is especially important because I mean.. does a mob care if you have infinite sustain? No, of course not, but a PVP build requires the player to make choices about not only DPS, but sustain, burst, mitgation, utility, etc. Bar space is tight, when you can rely on something like holding down left click to do most of your burst, then you free up bar space for more utility based skills as well. It's a snowball effect, just looking at a metric like DPS is misguided.
But yeah, I repeat my original idea in case someone takes this post the wrong way, I'm all for it working well in pve, but properly..
2.5k weapon/spell damage to light/heavy attacks, doubled to non player characters.
Shock heavy's out pacing other elements of damage in a pve situation to me, was reasonable because you are replacing a spamable with a heavy and dedicating five set bonus to compensate and its still at an overall loss. The context of how a dps number is achieved is important, but I don't believe the heavy's are disproportionate if you factor in gear slots as an investment of resources required to increase them. you are making a proportional investment to increase them, at a proportional cost to everything else. In the pvp context, the lighting ticks were strong and a nerf is justified, but on the same hand the true burst of heavys in pvp was not in lighting staff heavys nor the sets they nerfed.4 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Heavy attack sets in PvP are one of the few that dodged scaling hammer for damage-less bruisers. Just so you understand what that means, I can take my PvP char to PvE as tank (with taunt) for up to DLC vets and still do 20-70% of team dps, depending on how bad they are.0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭Heavy attack sets in PvP are one of the few that dodged scaling hammer for damage-less bruisers. Just so you understand what that means, I can take my PvP char to PvE as tank (with taunt) for up to DLC vets and still do 20-70% of team dps, depending on how bad they are.
70% of not a hell a lot is still not a hell a lot... more informative would have been what's your adds-less boss dps...ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)3 -
Lalothen✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »I think people are missing a few things here when comparing 90k dps with these 2 sets vs these 2 sets.. DPS is an average of your total damage per second, an average in pve stetched out over 2-4 minutes on a dummy.
So you're asking, why nerf something that behaves worse than something else because the DPS is less..
What is actually important here is how that average is achieved.
Example: Using these 2 sets, you're going to see a gigantic increase in damage for your shock heavies, but a decrease in everything else. Lets say a parse shows 40% of your 90k dps is from heavy's..
Now switch to something more meta with a heavy attack build that people have suggested, that gets higher to like 95k.. Well look at combat metrix again and you'll see your damage is no longer mostly shock heavy's, it's averaged out on to ALL of your skills because they're all being boosted. So as an example, your shock heavy does 15% instead, but now your dots, spammables, whatever, are all boosted by 5-10% each.
This is the problem. Shock heavies were disproportionately outpacing other sources of damage. DPS does not matter in a PVP scenario where this decision was most likely made for. Burst is king. You can have an absolute crappy DPS parse of 50k over 3 minutes, but in that first 3 seconds what really matters. Testing your builds for PVP and DPS on a dummy are almost never relevent unless you're looking at the Burst window.
This is especially important because I mean.. does a mob care if you have infinite sustain? No, of course not, but a PVP build requires the player to make choices about not only DPS, but sustain, burst, mitgation, utility, etc. Bar space is tight, when you can rely on something like holding down left click to do most of your burst, then you free up bar space for more utility based skills as well. It's a snowball effect, just looking at a metric like DPS is misguided.
I don't think people have missed this point; it's been a relevant topic of conversation through this thread and others like it. The simple fact though, is that most HA build players care little about PvP, hence they focus their attention where it's relevant to their gameplay: DPS performance in PvE. It doesn't mean the impact in PvP isn't considered, but there's an easy solution if it's really that much of a problem: disable the proc altogether in PvP zones or against players. Job done.
I'd also add that using HAs in PvP as a major damage source comes with a significant mobility drawback, leaves you wide open for counters, you can't block-cast (well, you can, but you're gaining zilch from the 5-piece whilst block-casting), the damage is easily mitigated with los & dodgeroll, etc - and frankly it's not what I'd call bursty compared to a bunch of other LA-weave + skill combos. I can kill people a lot faster using a dynamic LA weave rotation in PvP than churning out heavies - and that includes still using Infiltrator/Unweaver because my LAs get the flat DMG buff too. Hence why I don't bother with HA builds in PvP myself despite mainly playing them in PvE since 2018.But yeah, I repeat my original idea in case someone takes this post the wrong way, I'm all for it working well in pve, but properly..
2.5k weapon/spell damage to light/heavy attacks, doubled to non player characters.
These sets work because it's a flat base damage bonus applied early in the order of calculative operations. Changing it to a sp/wp bonus has presumably altered where the proc applies in that order, thus the significant decrease in DPS seen by people testing it out. It's possible the proc is currently applying incorrectly (or not actually applying at all) as well, so we'll see what's said next week.
Beyond that, your suggestion leaves the door open for the sort of glitchy issues we've seen time and again with these variegated proc conditions. I'd rather the sets simply didn't proc at all in PvP, than ZOS dance around the issue and end up leaving their bonus a total mess for where they see majority usage: in PvE.3 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭damage is easily mitigated with los & dodgeroll
LoS yes, dodgeroll no. Lightning heavy is a beam that hits through dodge, making all medium armor players very sad.dynamic LA weave rotation in PvP
Rotation in PvP. Nice
Hence why I don't bother with HA builds in PvP myself despite mainly playing them in PvE since 2018.
Hence we all understand that you never really played a PvP build with heavys, which is very far from PvE build.Heavy attack sets in PvP are one of the few that dodged scaling hammer for damage-less bruisers. Just so you understand what that means, I can take my PvP char to PvE as tank (with taunt) for up to DLC vets and still do 20-70% of team dps, depending on how bad they are.
70% of not a hell a lot is still not a hell a lot... more informative would have been what's your adds-less boss dps...
About 30k afaik. Didn't parse for a quite a while, can retest.0 -
Lalothen✭✭✭✭LoS yes, dodgeroll no. Lightning heavy is a beam that hits through dodge, making all medium armor players very sad.
You can dodge an entire lightning staff heavy if you know when to dodge. Not easy, but possible. Also a quick way to get out of wall since maelstrom front bar - especially perfected for the extra pen - still sees some use in PvP.Rotation in PvP. Nice
Yes a >>dynamic<< rotation because timing stuns etc is important against any PvPer with an ounce of skill, as is maintaining buffs - and there's still a priority order in PvP.Hence we all understand that you never really played a PvP build with heavys, which is very far from PvE build.
That's quite the presumptive leap, and wrong actually. I don't bother with them because the drawbacks from my own experience of using them outweigh any benefits - moreso since the CP system rework, given heavy tic damage can't be amped as much (even with the 15% active star modifier that got added).
Volcanic into an Empowered heavy on a consequently stunned target is still pretty nice if you can get it to land, but there are plenty of other, more reliable methods of lockdown'n' burst - ones that don't leave you wide open. Granted that's just one opener for a HA build, but on my magDK or my magCro (especially with a well timed BB) it used to be a guaranteed kill against anyone who didn't react quickly enough.3 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can dodge an entire lightning staff heavy if you know when to dodge.
You can't dodge lightning heavy.Yes a >>dynamic<< rotation because timing stuns etc is important against any PvPer with an ounce of skill, as is maintaining buffs - and there's still a priority order in PvP.
This is called combos. Because you don't parse in PvP, you kill with a sequence of skills.Volcanic into an Empowered heavy on a consequently stunned target is still pretty nice if you can get it to land
You don't need that, much more damage is not stunning your enemy with skills and only stun with off-balance heavy. Timing on that stun will be just during the time where you have all the buffs up, including +50% from off-balance. This combo melts even 30k bruisers.Also a quick way to get out of wall since maelstrom front bar
Dodging out of blockade with off-balance proc on is a suicide.
Only thing that can save you is blockheal for one heavy attack and then LoS.1 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭
So basically nothing to write home about. Way behind LA weaves. And certainly not an issue and reason to extend the nerf from pvp into pve land... and make ppl with disabilities and injuries life harder.. and lower the ceiling for less skilled players..
I dont pvp so no idea how becessary/required it is there..
Edited by remosito on February 4, 2022 3:53PMShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)5 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.1 -
luchtt✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.6 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies?
I have seen, but that doesn't mean it's constructive. It never happened before and I don't think it will ever happen. They don't do separate PvE and PvP balancing for sets or abilities.0 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.
Your are absolutely correct. They already made changes to range stam taunt to affect only non-players, then made mist the opposite to only work in PVP, they have a new set that says 'while in battle spirit'. There is absolutely no reason not to leave these HA sets alone for PVE and not work in PVP. It is inconceivable that anyone would be arguing against this. In fact, separating things between PVE and PVP is a super smart and hopefully expanding precedence.6 -
Lalothen✭✭✭✭You can't dodge lightning heavy.
Believe as you like tbh. Might be worth experimenting and figuring it out though. 🤷♂️This is called combos. Because you don't parse in PvP, you kill with a sequence of skills.
....a sequence of skills that you rotate dynamically through; "rotation" doesn't apply purely to parsing either. Regardless, you're trying to argue semantics for the purpose of point-scoring, so call it whatever you want.You don't need that, much more damage is not stunning your enemy with skills and only stun with off-balance heavy. Timing on that stun will be just during the time where you have all the buffs up, including +50% from off-balance. This combo melts even 30k bruisers.
That still won't melt anyone with decent reaction capabilities, and still leaves you wide open to counter.Dodging out of blockade with off-balance proc on is a suicide.
Only thing that can save you is blockheal for one heavy attack and then LoS.
It really isn't; it's about timing, which way you dodge, and what else you do in combination. Wall has a very specific animation so you can be out of it as soon as it's dropped if you're paying attention.
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Believe as you like tbh. Might be worth experimenting and figuring it out though. 🤷♂️
Wdym believe? I played it so much I know I am right.
Name one place in this vid where heavy attack is dodged.
https://youtu.be/pIZAOJX6NIs
I name places where there was an attempt that resulted in taking damage for free: 1:30 2:35 4:38 5:34 5:55 8:13 8:47It really isn't; it's about timing, which way you dodge, and what else you do in combination. Wall has a very specific animation so you can be out of it as soon as it's dropped if you're paying attention.
You are clearly talking out of your head, things you say are not based on real combat experience. If they were, you would know that blockade is fast and wide -> enchantment proc is tied to first hit. It doesn't matter how fast you escape from that area, you already have off-balance, so prepare for the world of pain for next 7s (roughly 2 full heavys).2 -
Arcanasx✭✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.
Your are absolutely correct. They already made changes to range stam taunt to affect only non-players, then made mist the opposite to only work in PVP, they have a new set that says 'while in battle spirit'. There is absolutely no reason not to leave these HA sets alone for PVE and not work in PVP. It is inconceivable that anyone would be arguing against this. In fact, separating things between PVE and PVP is a super smart and hopefully expanding precedence.
Preventing the sets from working in PvP isn't a good solution at all, especially since those sets have already been working in PvP for nearly 8 years. How about changing the set to "Increases the damage of your light and non-channeled heavy attacks by X"; problem solved for PvP. But I guess that wouldn't be a completely fair change either.
Other than some niche dual wield heavy attack builds, the sets are overwhelmingly being used for lightning heavy attack builds, and sometimes resto heavy attacks. Because of the potential that lightning staves get from using it (4x bonus, ranged, mostly undodgeable, with an AoE effect around the main target), that's probably the reason why the sets are incredibly mediocre for other weapons that only receive the bonus once, because if they were to buff the bonus while keeping the flat damage bonus to make using those weapons better, it would make lightning heavy attacks even stronger.
The undaunted sets are also quite bad for PvE if you're not using a lightning staff with it; again probably because if they were to make it useful for any weapon that's not a lightning staff, then it would be busted OP on lightning staves.
So the new concept for the change is fine, but the new values that are currently on the PTS are simply too low to make them worth using for any weapon and should be increased, probably by 700-1000, unless they plan to increase the damage scaling that weapon and spell damage provide for heavy attacks in the future.1 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.
Your are absolutely correct. They already made changes to range stam taunt to affect only non-players, then made mist the opposite to only work in PVP, they have a new set that says 'while in battle spirit'. There is absolutely no reason not to leave these HA sets alone for PVE and not work in PVP. It is inconceivable that anyone would be arguing against this. In fact, separating things between PVE and PVP is a super smart and hopefully expanding precedence.
It is becoming pretty obvious that this is an attempt to force everyone into a singular playstyle. And make any alternatives which are already super weak to be useless. And punishing many people with disabilities for no reason will not be a smart decision.6 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.
Your are absolutely correct. They already made changes to range stam taunt to affect only non-players, then made mist the opposite to only work in PVP, they have a new set that says 'while in battle spirit'. There is absolutely no reason not to leave these HA sets alone for PVE and not work in PVP. It is inconceivable that anyone would be arguing against this. In fact, separating things between PVE and PVP is a super smart and hopefully expanding precedence.
Preventing the sets from working in PvP isn't a good solution at all, especially since those sets have already been working in PvP for nearly 8 years. How about changing the set to "Increases the damage of your light and non-channeled heavy attacks by X"; problem solved for PvP. But I guess that wouldn't be a completely fair change either.
Other than some niche dual wield heavy attack builds, the sets are overwhelmingly being used for lightning heavy attack builds, and sometimes resto heavy attacks. Because of the potential that lightning staves get from using it (4x bonus, ranged, mostly undodgeable, with an AoE effect around the main target), that's probably the reason why the sets are incredibly mediocre for other weapons that only receive the bonus once, because if they were to buff the bonus while keeping the flat damage bonus to make using those weapons better, it would make lightning heavy attacks even stronger.
The undaunted sets are also quite bad for PvE if you're not using a lightning staff with it; again probably because if they were to make it useful for any weapon that's not a lightning staff, then it would be busted OP on lightning staves.
So the new concept for the change is fine, but the new values that are currently on the PTS are simply too low to make them worth using for any weapon and should be increased, probably by 700-1000, unless they plan to increase the damage scaling that weapon and spell damage provide for heavy attacks in the future.
There are already more than enough set, passive, skllls that buff light attacks. Those sets were specifically just only OK for buffing some lightning and resto heavies (which are already super weak). There is no other purpose for those sets. Making them useless for doing the only thing they ever did, makes no sense at all. Also there are already many sets that trigger off fully heavy that would be better than these proposed changes. I agree the PTS damage is way too low right now, on these.Edited by Merforum on February 5, 2022 3:01AM4 -
Jman100582✭✭✭✭Heya zos, I hate heavy attack builds on pvp but please don’t change these sets, lots of disabled/mechanically challenged persons are relying on HA builds to get them through content so please think about this again.
Look while it does suck that people do have these disabilities, these people are in the minority and the game shouldn't be balanced around them. Not trying to be rude, but it is the case. light attack weaving makes up around about 10-20% of a pvers dmg. If a player can do 100k dps (which is in all honesty the standard for a lot of the super difficult hi-end content) by doing the perfect weaves, another player should be able to do between 70-80k dps just by waiting out the gcd between abilities. 70-80k is still a very good amount, and more than enough to do a majority of content. Do you lose out on dmg? yes, you do. But heavy attack builds do deserved to be nerfed due to simply being unengaging and not even requiring basic resource management beyond putting down wall of elements, let alone the ridiculous amount of dmg they do in pvp
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Ascarl✭✭✭✭✭IMHO just having a single playstyle is boring as hell.
I had one HA build just to swap out when the game started to get tedious for me. With the nerf I will probably just log out of ESO and play another game for a change of pace.
I doubt this was the intention.2 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭
Huh???
Increases your damage done to non-player enemies by up to 15% based on your missing Magicka.
That's not some obsucre set. But pretty meta. Bahsei. Afaik there are others...ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)3 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
In a build that puts 64 into HP? No damage enchants, no damage mundus, no damage traits?
Try that and parse, you'll be surprised.
not specifically calling this post out but you've been argueing this point for a while and I agree, its kinda busted in pvp. but like.. have you seen my suggestion? changing the 5piece bonuses to only apply to non player enemies? This kinda solves all issues afaik. By the way, 70% of a pug dps means nothing. its a pug of course you're gonna parse 90% of the dmg. 30k is pretty average dps for most builds in pugs that have some thought put into them, if not a little bit below average actually. in a pug HA builds also have a hard cap of 70k dps. it is almost impossible to get higher than 70k even in a really optimized dungeon group with that build, while other builds can shoot far past that in more optimized groups. Ease of entry to decent dps in exchange for no room to expand upwards of higher dps is a fair tradeoff i would say.
Your are absolutely correct. They already made changes to range stam taunt to affect only non-players, then made mist the opposite to only work in PVP, they have a new set that says 'while in battle spirit'. There is absolutely no reason not to leave these HA sets alone for PVE and not work in PVP. It is inconceivable that anyone would be arguing against this. In fact, separating things between PVE and PVP is a super smart and hopefully expanding precedence.
It is becoming pretty obvious that this is an attempt to force everyone into a singular playstyle. And make any alternatives which are already super weak to be useless. And punishing many people with disabilities for no reason will not be a smart decision.
Let's do a little math.
1. we have a few super niche sets that require 2 5 pieces and maelstrom staff and lightning staff and on a scale of (useless, bad, fun, good, great, OP) only reaches the level of a FUN build
2. you have people who for years have been insulting everyone who does heavy attack builds as lazy, unskilled, annoying
3. they say this is a problem in PVP but demand that it's also nerfed for PVE
So adding 2+2 what is the actual agenda here.Edited by Merforum on February 5, 2022 7:49PM1 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭
if that were the truth then every trial said would have non-player in the bonus. Almost all dont. As such your point is simply off...ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)2 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
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They all do.
3 items: Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
3 items: Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
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Merforum✭✭✭✭✭
Exactly right trial set have a 3rd piece bonus that are useless in PVP but even with that people still use them. And the fact that ZOS explicitly puts non-player on a set proves they know people use them in PVP, which explicitly means trial sets are NOT explicitly for PVE only.
BTW like i said the non-player or separating PVP and PVE gear/skills has been used on mist, inner beast, a new set coming and probably other stuff I can't remember.Edited by Merforum on February 5, 2022 8:45PM1 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭
They all do.
3 items: Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
3 items: Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
on the 5 piece bonus obviously....ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)2 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Lenny_linguine wrote: »TheGeordieKitten wrote: »High-skill playstyles should be rewarded with high DPS, not builds that hold left click. This is a fair balance change, not a nerf.
yet on my templar using basi and deadly, I can get 90k+ dps using a simplified three skill rotation, essentially just jabbing my life away dealing high aoe damage and having good incoming healing ? high damage HA set ups are not significantly different in 'skill requirement' from many other set ups, they don't simply 'hold left click', they replace a typical spamable with a heavy attack.
So the essential difference between a 'traditional' high skill light weave set up and a HA set up is, that one light weaves between a spamable and buffs/dots while the other light weaves between buff/dots, and replaces their spamable with heavy attacks and when comparing two fully optimised set ups the replacement of a spamable for heavy attacks is typically between 10-25k on a dummy (thats on a dk- it is a larger difference on other classes) depending on the players weaving. In content these numbers vary drastically depending on the fight, but its safe to assume you would be looking at an absolute minimum dps loss of 10k dps in exchange for better sustain. Opting to increase sustain via food rather than using a HA set up, does not impact dps but rather survivability. either way, better sustain requires a trade off and currently I think these trade offs are reasonable, however changing these sets just limits the options to over come sustain because the reduction in dps is now to large of a compromise to make in a significant amount of harder content in the game. weather or not the compromise in dps for HA sustain is too big or too small is ultimately gonna come down to personal opinion, but the argument that heavy attacks set up dps should be nerfed due to build simplicity just falls flat for me, there are so many one bar, or 2/3/4 button skill set ups that are ridiculously simplistic and sets that give flat damage with no complexity required (i.e pillar of nirn) and I don't see why it would be reasonable to nerf those either, as they make similar compromises in dps for simplicity's sake.
Exactly right and to your point this obsession with 'easy' or 'hard' rotations is absurd. And it is hypocrital. Check out this vid with Deltia doing both solo vet arenas with ONE BUTTON. People are saying heavy attack build must be nerfed because they are TOO EASY and we can clear solo vet no-death arenas with ONE SKILL. So by that logic let's nerf Templar sweeps.
BTW full disclosure after seeing this vid I put together the 3 button version of this magplar build one bar, and cleared both vet arena with about 10 deaths each. First time ever clearing Vet on either vMA or vVat. As an apples to apples comparison my HA magsorc pet build, only got me to the 5th round of vMA and I quit after dying what seems like 100 times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiCOq_1DQc Edited by Merforum on February 5, 2022 9:42PM7