Unweaver/Infiltrator/Noble duelist changes. (please revert or change somehow)

axi

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

mocap

Lightning HA still possible with Torugs + Heartland + infused vMA + infused front lightning stave. Should be 7k damage enchant tool tip value. Double damage enchants: back stave shock, front stave fire.

It's not dat stronk as IE + Duelist(live). Still viable and super cheap in terms of farm.

TheGeordieKitten

High-skill playstyles should be rewarded with high DPS, not builds that hold left click. This is a fair balance change, not a nerf.

remosito

TheGeordieKitten wrote: »

High-skill playstyles should be rewarded with high DPS, not builds that hold left click. This is a fair balance change, not a nerf.

[snip] try it. just holding left mouse button is bad dps even with those sets...

[edited to remove baiting]

luchtt

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

ssewallb14_ESO

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

None of these nerfs will stop anything in that video from happening, lol.

divnyi

mocap wrote: »

Lightning HA still possible with Torugs + Heartland + infused vMA + infused front lightning stave. Should be 7k damage enchant tool tip value. Double damage enchants: back stave shock, front stave fire.

It's not dat stronk as IE + Duelist(live). Still viable and super cheap in terms of farm.

Idk if you tried it or not but it's absolutely trashy setup, tested that on live server.
Also that's completely unrelated mechanics, don't see how's that relevant.

GERMANO-THE-IMPERIAL

Eso died without Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver sets. We and many friends will leave Eso. Eso Plus has already been cancelled. Greetings from Germany.

Lenny_linguine

I regularly play with HA set ups in PVE because I find them fun, I'm in Australia so have high ping and it makes the harder content an easier time not dealing with ping issues. I understand they may frustrate people in pvp, however I don't think these changes fully address that issue as they leave a bunch of other sets un touched. In PvE, HA set ups can not compete dps wise with light weave rotations, which is in my eyes reasonable because of the sustain they offer and the ease of use. However they are in my opinion not so strong that a nerf was justified in PvE, especially one of this size.

For example, my dk using a dot base heavy attack set up on the live server pulls 86k dps. while my light weave basi kinaras pulls 101k. naturally, this makes the light weave set up significantly stronger, however the heavy set up is nice on ad pulls and allows me to play my dk with flexibility (i.e at range if needed) and I think a 15k dps loss seems reasonable for this. However when I tested the same set up on the current pts after the changes, my basi kinras light set is now higher because of hybridisation of barbtrap, while my HA set up dropped to 78k making the bridge between the two drastically larger. It's a 9.3% damage nerf on my set up which was already well below the meta and I'm sure others are seeing even bigger drops depending on how many of these sets they use. Overall for me, it means in order to play with the flexibility I am used to I need to sacrifice 23k dps, which makes the setup far less viable in hard content and is incredibly frustrating as a player especially when the constant narrative I hear is about fostering build diversity and play the way you want. If these sets have been nerfed for a pvp reason, why is the solution not only applicable to pvp situations ? and if they have been nerfed in PvE for a reason, what the hell is the reason, to force people into light weave set ups?

MashmalloMan

GERMANO-THE-IMPERIAL wrote: »

Eso died without Undaunted Infiltrator/Unweaver sets. We and many friends will leave Eso. Eso Plus has already been cancelled. Greetings from Germany.

If your only enjoyment of the game was from 2 sets, I question why you played at all. 100s of set changes have been done over the years forcing people to adapt, you should never get too attached to a set combination or really anything in an MMO where things are constantly balanced to make sure something doesn't perform leauges ahread.

While I think something can be done to make it more competitive for PVE dps, I think it's a bit of an over reaction to threaten you and bunch of your friends quitting because of something that was clearly working as unintended for so long finally being addressed.

I don't think they should revert the change and make it only applicable for PVE, but I do think they should boost the damage to a comparable DPS value of 5k instead of the 2k weapon/spell damage, then make it only effect PVE mobs.

Or how about something like this.

"Increase weapon/spell damage of heavy attacks by 2.5k. This effect is doubled against PVE mobs."

There, fixed. PVP builds can continue to get some use out of it, while PVE will continue to have the DPS they expected while still fixing the root of the issue which was it effecting shock/resto staves 4x as much as traditional weapons. It would also open the door for Fire/2H/Bow/DW as Heavy Attack build choices.

Arcanasx

The new concept is fine; changing it to weapon/spell damage allows them to better balance the set by making it more even across weapon types, instead of a flat base damage boost that benefits certain weapons over others. But IMO they missed the mark as the current PTS values are too low for UI/UW and perhaps noble duelist as well. It looks like a lot, but ever since the summerset heavy attack damage nerf, heavy attack damage has been scaling poorly with weapon/spell damage, so really the current values are actually quite weak for a 5pc bonus.

The change doesn't just nerf lightning and resto staves, but duel wield as well. For dual wield its about a 40% nerf, making its new bonus actually weaker than the old, pre-buffed UI/UW value that was something like 1150. On top of the free 1k weapon and spell damage that everyone got as part of the CP rework, its already lost some of its impact, and for dual wield, this makes the sets even weaker than ever before.

I think its a small buff for the remaining weapon types, but compared to the other sets that currently exist, (PvP perspective) such as DC, plaguebreak, unleashed terror, rush of agony, daedric trickery, kynmarcher, olorime, clever alchemist, iron blood, wretched vitality, the new hew and sunder on the pts, etc, makes it seem pointless to run it now.

Another thing to consider was the previous change to the empower buff where instead of only buffing light attacks, they made them affect heavy attacks as well, which overwhelmingly helps lightning, resto and inferno heavy attack builds because of the sourcing of said buff, and that's when complaints against heavy attack builds (mostly lightning and more recently inferno ganking) really started to take off. I do think empower should have been changed where its bonus is lowered to help reduce the "burst" potential but also increase its duration as compensation.

Urzigurumash

xStaticx wrote: »

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

What kind of sense of equity is this? Nerf the kit of each and every DK for the few players that run these sets?

MashmalloMan

Urzigurumash wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

So all the heavy attack sets get heavily nerfed due to Molten Armaments. Would make more sense to change the skill then nerf all the sets for the rest of the classes that used them.

What kind of sense of equity is this? Nerf the kit of each and every DK for the few players that run these sets?

He knows not of which he speaks.

axi

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

You seem to not understand core issue. It's not just about raw numbers that heavy attack setups can pull on dummy, it's about how those numbers are pulled which becomes really important in real fight scenarios. You say You can pull 90k on dummy which is almost 90% of what is considered high end DPS on fully optimised destro/destro setups.

Lets compare rotations needed to achieve those numbers on those two types of setups.

On one side You have fully optimised setup that needs to keep every uptime tight, perfectly and quickly rotate abilities and light attack inbetween them which at the end results with drawbacks like big consumption of magicka to the point sustaining on dummy is impossible without regen food and in real fights without group support even regen food wont be enough. Furthermore if You will use that food in real fights You will lower Your health pool which will lower Your survivability. At the end You are heavily reliant on others to pull top numbers on that setup. You've mentioned vamplar which adds even more drawbacks into the rotation because he needs to deal with consistant loss of health and lack of healing from others because of shimerring frenzy while playing in meele so one mistake can cost him life. That setup plays high risk high reward game, it's kinda logical he deserves more DPS.

On the other hand You have heavy attack setup that have none of the drawbacks mentioned above. Sustain on that setup is many times better sometimes to the point You wont even care about it. That combined with the fact You can choose double stat food also increases Your survivability in real fights. Rotation is slower and easier to keep up. In real fights that is huge adventage because You have less things to care about. All of that while keeping 85-90% of other fully optimised destro/destro setups.

You claim You could go and solo vSCP trifecta on any other setup. I really encourage You to do so, especially on mentioned by You vamplar. Then You will see how adventageous heavy attack setups are atm. Making no sacrifice in survivability and sustain plus having way easier rotation micromanagment while keeping 85-90% of top DPS possible with all mentioned sacrifices is busted and it's one of the reasons why You were able to complete vSCP trifecta failry easy compared to what would be needed to repeat that on regular setups. The best prove that it's busted is that heavy attack setups started to be real issue in PvP where survivability and sustain are even more important then in PvE. If You can keep those two at decent level while having simple source of high damage that is a recipe for a busted setup in both PvE and PvP.

axi

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

None of these nerfs will stop anything in that video from happening, lol.

That run took 28 minutes. It's highly possilble any other setup due to bigger issues with sustain and survivability will require more time so in a way these nerfs may stop some of the things on that video from happening or they will atleast make it way harder to happen.

luchtt

axi wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

You seem to not understand core issue. It's not just about raw numbers that heavy attack setups can pull on dummy, it's about how those numbers are pulled which becomes really important in real fight scenarios. You say You can pull 90k on dummy which is almost 90% of what is considered high end DPS on fully optimised destro/destro setups.

Lets compare rotations needed to achieve those numbers on those two types of setups.

On one side You have fully optimised setup that needs to keep every uptime tight, perfectly and quickly rotate abilities and light attack inbetween them which at the end results with drawbacks like big consumption of magicka to the point sustaining on dummy is impossible without regen food and in real fights without group support even regen food wont be enough. Furthermore if You will use that food in real fights You will lower Your health pool which will lower Your survivability. At the end You are heavily reliant on others to pull top numbers on that setup. You've mentioned vamplar which adds even more drawbacks into the rotation because he needs to deal with consistant loss of health and lack of healing from others because of shimerring frenzy while playing in meele so one mistake can cost him life. That setup plays high risk high reward game, it's kinda logical he deserves more DPS.

On the other hand You have heavy attack setup that have none of the drawbacks mentioned above. Sustain on that setup is many times better sometimes to the point You wont even care about it. That combined with the fact You can choose double stat food also increases Your survivability in real fights. Rotation is slower and easier to keep up. In real fights that is huge adventage because You have less things to care about. All of that while keeping 85-90% of other fully optimised destro/destro setups.

You claim You could go and solo vSCP trifecta on any other setup. I really encourage You to do so, especially on mentioned by You vamplar. Then You will see how adventageous heavy attack setups are atm. Making no sacrifice in survivability and sustain plus having way easier rotation micromanagment while keeping 85-90% of top DPS possible with all mentioned sacrifices is busted and it's one of the reasons why You were able to complete vSCP trifecta failry easy compared to what would be needed to repeat that on regular setups. The best prove that it's busted is that heavy attack setups started to be real issue in PvP where survivability and sustain are even more important then in PvE. If You can keep those two at decent level while having simple source of high damage that is a recipe for a busted setup in both PvE and PvP.

sure, what would you like me to do it on + i didn't claim any other setup, there are only a few setups that can do this, but they are not limited to HA builds. by the way, you make some valid points but remember, in a lot of situations this build performs badly. It's very reliant on keeping a boss in dots, for sunspire and stuff this is fine but fights like AS this build is [snip], VCR too, awful and more. if the enemy is moving and you can't control where exactly its going, it will suffer immensely. 30% of the HA dmg is coming from standing in crushing wall, and HA/LA dmg is about 40% of the build.

People only use toggle in situations where they can get away with using it safely btw. they are not risking much. Yolna for example doesn't do dmg to any of the players other than flare so its completely fine to toggle away there. vCR+3 is another story, noone toggles there because you'll just die. you're making it seem like these builds don't have any context to them when they clearly do. There are no drawbacks to toggling in like 60% of situations. For getting double-triple my dps in scenarios don't you think thats a little crazy?

90k dps is in a perfect optimal situation. I have never hit even 80k dps in an actual situation with my build. It works well on the dummy, not in situations. you're fine if you hit about 60-75k with this setup in a decently optimized raid. I don't get how you can complain about this build existing. The fact that normal builds rely much less on their aoes to be on a static target makes them far superior.

1 more thing: this rotation isn't easy. it's a dynamic rotation on the dummy and in the fights in vSCP. It wasn't easy to do it. it took me hundreds of attempts, you're severely oversimplifying and making it look like all I'm doing is ''hurr durr hold left click heavy attarkc'' when in reality, all i'm doing is setting myself up to heavy attack 1-2 times per 13 seconds, due to the large amount of dots and aoes you need to upkeep, and this window of 2 heavy attacks can only be achieved if you have very good weaving, since you just barely have wall uptime at the last heavy attack even if you weave perfectly.

Here is a parse example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y54G4mcGr38

[edited for profanity bypass]

Darkstorne

Question please, good sirs!

Imagine a whacky world where I had an alt for casual questing who just likes focusing on light attacks with dual swords and passive abilities/sets to buff light attack damage as much as possible, because I like single player TES games and enjoy the break from weaving and dot uptime occasionally (MADNESS, I know...)

In this totally hypothetical world, would the changes to light attack damage from these sets be a buff, a nerf, or are the numbers designed to end up relatively the same in this situation?

Sincerely,

Not a casual scrub.

luchtt

Darkstorne wrote: »

Question please, good sirs!

Imagine a whacky world where I had an alt for casual questing who just likes focusing on light attacks with dual swords and passive abilities/sets to buff light attack damage as much as possible, because I like single player TES games and enjoy the break from weaving and dot uptime occasionally (MADNESS, I know...)

In this totally hypothetical world, would the changes to light attack damage from these sets be a buff, a nerf, or are the numbers designed to end up relatively the same in this situation?

Sincerely,

Not a casual scrub.

yes, it would be a fairly big nerf unfortunately. I can try out your build for you if you'd want on PTS because i am kind of curious on how the impact is on these types of builds but don't know what exactly people use for them. also i feel you, I used to play a dual wield sword character in skyrim haha, was so confusing to switch to uptimes etc, seems like a pretty elegant solution you have found. If these nerfs do end up going through, you could use Storm Master instead (well, if they dont touch that either) it requires a crit heavy though, to proc it's 20 second 1542 buff so its a much worse option but it still works the same way as these sets which were nerfed. Week 2 will be coming soon so we will get to see why they nerfed/changed the sets I hope.

Darkstorne

luchtt wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Question please, good sirs!

Imagine a whacky world where I had an alt for casual questing who just likes focusing on light attacks with dual swords and passive abilities/sets to buff light attack damage as much as possible, because I like single player TES games and enjoy the break from weaving and dot uptime occasionally (MADNESS, I know...)

In this totally hypothetical world, would the changes to light attack damage from these sets be a buff, a nerf, or are the numbers designed to end up relatively the same in this situation?

Sincerely,

Not a casual scrub.

yes, it would be a fairly big nerf unfortunately. I can try out your build for you if you'd want on PTS because i am kind of curious on how the impact is on these types of builds but don't know what exactly people use for them. also i feel you, I used to play a dual wield sword character in skyrim haha, was so confusing to switch to uptimes etc, seems like a pretty elegant solution you have found. If these nerfs do end up going through, you could use Storm Master instead (well, if they dont touch that either) it requires a crit heavy though, to proc it's 20 second 1542 buff so its a much worse option but it still works the same way as these sets which were nerfed. Week 2 will be coming soon so we will get to see why they nerfed/changed the sets I hope.

Thanks! That would be awesome. I have no idea how much weapon damage translates to raw damage where light attacks are concerned. I can understand them wanting to lower the damage done here by lightning staff heavy attacks, since fair enough, that's not working as intended. But it seems really weird if they're lowering the values to a point that it's a nerf to those of us who use the sets exactly as intended.

I use Undaunted Infiltrator for armour, Noble Duelist for weapons and jewellery (and head piece because - ) with Belharza ring mythic.

And you're right about Storm Master as an alternative. I noticed the Queen's Elegance change grants empower for 3 seconds after a heavy attack, so these could pair really well for that playstyle. And this character is a nightblade so I could always cloak for the guaranteed crit I need on the heavy. This might be the best option now, just a shame that it'll force me to use cloak a lot, when the whole point of using these kind of sets was so I could avoid magical abilities...

ssewallb14_ESO

axi wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

None of these nerfs will stop anything in that video from happening, lol.

That run took 28 minutes. It's highly possilble any other setup due to bigger issues with sustain and survivability will require more time so in a way these nerfs may stop some of the things on that video from happening or they will atleast make it way harder to happen.

There are already stronger HA setups than UU/UI on live, and there's a really strong one with one of the new sets. This doesn't kill HA solo builds, it just deletes 3 options from the game unless this change gets re-thought a bit.

divnyi

@Darkstorne DW heavys would be weaker (because they have 2 hits), anything else you do shouldn't be a lot worse. You can experiment tho.

If you are really into light attacks, can also try Blood Moon?

Darkstorne

divnyi wrote: »

@Darkstorne DW heavys would be weaker (because they have 2 hits), anything else you do shouldn't be a lot worse. You can experiment tho.

If you are really into light attacks, can also try Blood Moon?

I'll have to wait and see how it plays out I guess. It's not a major blow - only for an alt and only for solo questing where all sets are OP anyway

Yeah I do also have a full Blood Moon set! I used it with a 2 handed sword (so the attack speed looks awesome, and it benefits from splash damage) and golded it out. Managed to pick up two gold rings from the Cyrodiil vendor too. But after all that money spent I realized that... I don't like the lack of control over when it procs, nor the cooldown/uptime ratio. It would frequently proc after I'd killed a mob pack, then the short buff would expire before getting into combat again

I still feel bummed that they removed the heavy attack trigger from Belharza's Band for the same reason. Letting me build up the stacks, then choose when to fire the proc via a heavy attack, would feel much better imo for both Belharza and Blood Moon.

xStaticx

I read comments stating how these sets were not intended to buff every tick of a lightning staff and that the devs are just fixing these overperforming sets.

If this was the case, then why is there 2 different types of heavy attack sets?

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Fully-charged labeled sets only buff the final tick of a lightning/restoration staff and the heavy attack labeled sets buff all ticks from the lightning/restoration channel. That is how it has always worked. If this was not intended then why have two different kind of labeled heavy attack sets then? Why does the fully-charged one have a much higher bonus over the heavy attack one? Because it only buffed the final tick as opposed to all ticks of a heavy.

I agree that this overperforming in PVP and something should be done. But not in PVE. Like what someone else suggested in another post, that have the buffs only work on non players.

luchtt

xStaticx wrote: »

I read comments stating how these sets were not intended to buff every tick of a lightning staff and that the devs are just fixing these overperforming sets.

If this was the case, then why is there 2 different types of heavy attack sets?

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Fully-charged labeled sets only buff the final tick of a lightning/restoration staff and the heavy attack labeled sets buff all ticks from the lightning/restoration channel. That is how it has always worked. If this was not intended then why have two different kind of labeled heavy attack sets then? Why does the fully-charged one have a much higher bonus over the heavy attack one? Because it only buffed the final tick as opposed to all ticks of a heavy.

I agree that this overperforming in PVP and something should be done. But not in PVE. Like what someone else suggested in another post, that have the buffs only work on non players.

Yeah, these comments are kinda not based on much research. The reason for these unhinged speculations is because the devs haven't commented on why they made this change. The lightning heavy ticks are intended. If they weren't this would have been fixed multiple years ago, especially when xynode started making his build videos because he has some heavy attack builds too. I highly doubt the devs dont know or only recently knew about the fact that these builds existed. They are very popular, not to mention the point you made about there being multiple different sets. These full lightning/resto 4 tick heavies are indeed intended, for pve at least.

divnyi

xStaticx wrote: »

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Sergeants doesn't buff light attacks.

Then there is newer stuff like Hist Whisperer which also works on last tick of lightning heavy only.

Don't try to find the logic here, I don't think devs ever tried to even approximately balance out the 5th bonuses of the sets.
They heard outcry about heavys, looked into some stats and found out that they are overused. Smack, nerfed out of existence. Problem fixed.

luchtt

divnyi wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Sergeants doesn't buff light attacks.

Then there is newer stuff like Hist Whisperer which also works on last tick of lightning heavy only.

Don't try to find the logic here, I don't think devs ever tried to even approximately balance out the 5th bonuses of the sets.
They heard outcry about heavys, looked into some stats and found out that they are overused. Smack, nerfed out of existence. Problem fixed.

Except problem not solved, there is no logic in this change. I can still reach 89k+ dps with a Heavy Attack build on PTS, just using different sets. Same rotation, same dps, just forcing me to use different sets. It's just a weirdo change for no reason.

Seargant's mail only buffs the last tick of heavy attack too btw, not the lightning 3 ticks before the final burst one. These were 100% intentionally designed to be different and indeed buff the full heavy attack including all the ticks.

Merforum

luchtt wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Sergeants doesn't buff light attacks.

Then there is newer stuff like Hist Whisperer which also works on last tick of lightning heavy only.

Don't try to find the logic here, I don't think devs ever tried to even approximately balance out the 5th bonuses of the sets.
They heard outcry about heavys, looked into some stats and found out that they are overused. Smack, nerfed out of existence. Problem fixed.

Except problem not solved, there is no logic in this change. I can still reach 89k+ dps with a Heavy Attack build on PTS, just using different sets. Same rotation, same dps, just forcing me to use different sets. It's just a weirdo change for no reason.

Seargant's mail only buffs the last tick of heavy attack too btw, not the lightning 3 ticks before the final burst one. These were 100% intentionally designed to be different and indeed buff the full heavy attack including all the ticks.

YOU are so right and as some people said if this change was for PVP which we all know it was (not because it is OP but because people hate on HA builds). But WHY don't the just disable it in PVP, like someone mention just change the tooltip to be non-player enemies. That way sets becomes useless in PVP only, not completely useless.

But I have a another question. I know there high end players like you, who use these setups to solo dungeons, but I think the vast majority of people who have disabilities who use these sets. So question is since you found an alternative on PTS, would it work also for people with disabilities who basically don't do many LA and almost no LA animation canceling, just skills and heavies? Please advise.

Lalothen

This changes makes no sense; the feasibility of those three sets revolves specifically around the flat boost to base damage.

I find it all the more odd for the fact that not so long ago ZOS experimented with the concept of making light attacks resource-yielding at the expense of damage, and heavy attacks the bread-n-butter for top DPS - yet this change feels like they're trying to limit the DPS viability of HA builds for anything beyond basic overland content.

I also find it quite ironic that people talk about how important sustain is when trying to justify why HA builds should do even less dps than they currently do vs. their LA counterparts, when the above-mentioned change to LAs & HAs was absolutely trashed by almost all LA DPS players because it reduced their DPS and apparently the extra sustain wasn't all that important by comparison.

Let's see if ZOS' reasoning has merit to it come next week's PTS, I guess.

divnyi

luchtt wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

xStaticx wrote: »

There are heavy attack labeled sets like the undaunted sets that buff by 1685 and fully-charged heavy attack labeled sets like Sergeants Mail that buff by 2257.

Sergeants doesn't buff light attacks.

Then there is newer stuff like Hist Whisperer which also works on last tick of lightning heavy only.

Don't try to find the logic here, I don't think devs ever tried to even approximately balance out the 5th bonuses of the sets.
They heard outcry about heavys, looked into some stats and found out that they are overused. Smack, nerfed out of existence. Problem fixed.

Except problem not solved, there is no logic in this change. I can still reach 89k+ dps with a Heavy Attack build on PTS, just using different sets.

When players will switch to those, they will get the same treatment. I would be surprised if they won't do it during PTS even.

Lenny_linguine

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

You seem to not understand core issue. It's not just about raw numbers that heavy attack setups can pull on dummy, it's about how those numbers are pulled which becomes really important in real fight scenarios. You say You can pull 90k on dummy which is almost 90% of what is considered high end DPS on fully optimised destro/destro setups.

Lets compare rotations needed to achieve those numbers on those two types of setups.

On one side You have fully optimised setup that needs to keep every uptime tight, perfectly and quickly rotate abilities and light attack inbetween them which at the end results with drawbacks like big consumption of magicka to the point sustaining on dummy is impossible without regen food and in real fights without group support even regen food wont be enough. Furthermore if You will use that food in real fights You will lower Your health pool which will lower Your survivability. At the end You are heavily reliant on others to pull top numbers on that setup. You've mentioned vamplar which adds even more drawbacks into the rotation because he needs to deal with consistant loss of health and lack of healing from others because of shimerring frenzy while playing in meele so one mistake can cost him life. That setup plays high risk high reward game, it's kinda logical he deserves more DPS.

On the other hand You have heavy attack setup that have none of the drawbacks mentioned above. Sustain on that setup is many times better sometimes to the point You wont even care about it. That combined with the fact You can choose double stat food also increases Your survivability in real fights. Rotation is slower and easier to keep up. In real fights that is huge adventage because You have less things to care about. All of that while keeping 85-90% of other fully optimised destro/destro setups.

You claim You could go and solo vSCP trifecta on any other setup. I really encourage You to do so, especially on mentioned by You vamplar. Then You will see how adventageous heavy attack setups are atm. Making no sacrifice in survivability and sustain plus having way easier rotation micromanagment while keeping 85-90% of top DPS possible with all mentioned sacrifices is busted and it's one of the reasons why You were able to complete vSCP trifecta failry easy compared to what would be needed to repeat that on regular setups. The best prove that it's busted is that heavy attack setups started to be real issue in PvP where survivability and sustain are even more important then in PvE. If You can keep those two at decent level while having simple source of high damage that is a recipe for a busted setup in both PvE and PvP.

sure, what would you like me to do it on + i didn't claim any other setup, there are only a few setups that can do this, but they are not limited to HA builds. by the way, you make some valid points but remember, in a lot of situations this build performs badly. It's very reliant on keeping a boss in dots, for sunspire and stuff this is fine but fights like AS this build is [snip], VCR too, awful and more. if the enemy is moving and you can't control where exactly its going, it will suffer immensely. 30% of the HA dmg is coming from standing in crushing wall, and HA/LA dmg is about 40% of the build.

People only use toggle in situations where they can get away with using it safely btw. they are not risking much. Yolna for example doesn't do dmg to any of the players other than flare so its completely fine to toggle away there. vCR+3 is another story, noone toggles there because you'll just die. you're making it seem like these builds don't have any context to them when they clearly do. There are no drawbacks to toggling in like 60% of situations. For getting double-triple my dps in scenarios don't you think thats a little crazy?

90k dps is in a perfect optimal situation. I have never hit even 80k dps in an actual situation with my build. It works well on the dummy, not in situations. you're fine if you hit about 60-75k with this setup in a decently optimized raid. I don't get how you can complain about this build existing. The fact that normal builds rely much less on their aoes to be on a static target makes them far superior.

1 more thing: this rotation isn't easy. it's a dynamic rotation on the dummy and in the fights in vSCP. It wasn't easy to do it. it took me hundreds of attempts, you're severely oversimplifying and making it look like all I'm doing is ''hurr durr hold left click heavy attarkc'' when in reality, all i'm doing is setting myself up to heavy attack 1-2 times per 13 seconds, due to the large amount of dots and aoes you need to upkeep, and this window of 2 heavy attacks can only be achieved if you have very good weaving, since you just barely have wall uptime at the last heavy attack even if you weave perfectly.

Here is a parse example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y54G4mcGr38

My set is in the same boat, in order to get high 80k's on a Ha set up you do a lot of light weaving, and really only two heavy's after a spamable within each rotation. This allows for better sustain and ranged dps at a reasonable dps loss. The set ups are by no means 'easy mode' you still need to be a decent player to get value out of them and nerfing the sets in the manner they have just puts their output to far below the curve to bother using regardless of the sustain they provide. Also, alot of people are talking about DK this dk that, I also have heavy set ups on soc's and templars, both can reach 80k. however they are even more dependent on these sets, dk only needs 1 while templars and sorcs need two to perform as well and I know necros can do well on the HA set ups as well. What this means is that the classes other than DK are now far more likely to be locked out of HA play styles than those other classes, while Dk's can make set adjustments to still remain close to previous dps numbers in pve, although not equal.

[edited to remove quote]