Unweaver/Infiltrator/Noble duelist changes. (please revert or change somehow)

Gendizer

1) In PVE, HA builds feel comfortable, but they don't do as much damage as regular meta builds. Those. more or less everything is balanced. For those who do not want to turn the game in TESO into a piano game (otherwise, there is no other way to call the "classic" gameplay for dd, in which you need to interrupt animations, insert light attacks according to the timing) and came up with a HA build.

2) In PVP, HA builds are quite powerful, but you can't say that they are top. This is not true. In a fight against several players, this build does not work, unlike some classic ones. Plus, the heavy attack is perfectly countered by a block.

3) One of the most important components in PVP is low ping. A huge number of players have problems with ping, and the HA build is almost the only way to somehow play PVP.

4) On BG, HA builds are occasionally encountered, but not too often. Units generally show good results. In my opinion, there is another problem - the imbalance of classes. In almost every battle, half of the players are DKs, a little less are templars and sorcerers, also necromancers. Wardens can be counted on the fingers. Perhaps it is worth paying attention to this?

Sorry for my English, it translate with Google Translate.

divnyi

remosito wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

That's not some obsucre set.

That's trial set. Trial sets are explicitly PvE.

if that were the truth then every trial said would have non-player in the bonus. Almost all dont. As such your point is simply off...

They all do.

3 items: Gain Minor Aegis at all times, reducing your damage taken from Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.
3 items: Gain Minor Slayer at all times, increasing your damage done to Dungeon, Trial, and Arena Monsters by 5%.

on the 5 piece bonus obviously....

Ez. Any of those, that give Major Aegis and Major Slayer.

Merforum

Merforum wrote: »

Lenny_linguine wrote: »

TheGeordieKitten wrote: »

High-skill playstyles should be rewarded with high DPS, not builds that hold left click. This is a fair balance change, not a nerf.

yet on my templar using basi and deadly, I can get 90k+ dps using a simplified three skill rotation, essentially just jabbing my life away dealing high aoe damage and having good incoming healing ? high damage HA set ups are not significantly different in 'skill requirement' from many other set ups, they don't simply 'hold left click', they replace a typical spamable with a heavy attack.

So the essential difference between a 'traditional' high skill light weave set up and a HA set up is, that one light weaves between a spamable and buffs/dots while the other light weaves between buff/dots, and replaces their spamable with heavy attacks and when comparing two fully optimised set ups the replacement of a spamable for heavy attacks is typically between 10-25k on a dummy (thats on a dk- it is a larger difference on other classes) depending on the players weaving. In content these numbers vary drastically depending on the fight, but its safe to assume you would be looking at an absolute minimum dps loss of 10k dps in exchange for better sustain. Opting to increase sustain via food rather than using a HA set up, does not impact dps but rather survivability. either way, better sustain requires a trade off and currently I think these trade offs are reasonable, however changing these sets just limits the options to over come sustain because the reduction in dps is now to large of a compromise to make in a significant amount of harder content in the game. weather or not the compromise in dps for HA sustain is too big or too small is ultimately gonna come down to personal opinion, but the argument that heavy attacks set up dps should be nerfed due to build simplicity just falls flat for me, there are so many one bar, or 2/3/4 button skill set ups that are ridiculously simplistic and sets that give flat damage with no complexity required (i.e pillar of nirn) and I don't see why it would be reasonable to nerf those either, as they make similar compromises in dps for simplicity's sake.

Exactly right and to your point this obsession with 'easy' or 'hard' rotations is absurd. And it is hypocrital. Check out this vid with Deltia doing both solo vet arenas with ONE BUTTON. People are saying heavy attack build must be nerfed because they are TOO EASY and we can clear solo vet no-death arenas with ONE SKILL. So by that logic let's nerf Templar sweeps.

BTW full disclosure after seeing this vid I put together the 3 button version of this magplar build one bar, and cleared both vet arena with about 10 deaths each. First time ever clearing Vet on either vMA or vVat. As an apples to apples comparison my HA magsorc pet build, only got me to the 5th round of vMA and I quit after dying what seems like 100 times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFiCOq_1DQc

More evidence that this is a MADE UP NON Issue, restro/lightning heavies have been broken for quite a while and I just confirmed it yesterday. BTW the weirdness of the heavy sticking on someone also might be related to this bug not that it is the fault of the HA user.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590555/heavy-attacks-acting-up

axi

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

luchtt wrote: »

axi wrote: »

How ironic that the person who completed vSCP trifecta solo with heavy attack setup wearing some of mentioned sets, dont have any clue why these sets would recive a nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqf1QZMAbhc

Truth is these sets were busted especially when it comes to lightning staves and it was visible in both PvE and PvP. PvP obviously complained louder about it because training dummies and PvE mobs are not known for visiting the forums to complain that they die too easily to heavy attack spam.

ah yes, my 90k dps cap is busted, compared to a vamplar i would aboslutely destroy bosses mhm. man this build is just as potent as a somewhat okay dungeon/trial setup with like MS/bahsei. not the best, not bad. is there anything wrong with that? I could solo the trifecta again with a different build if you challenged me to. this build is just decent-good overall in pve, there's nothing busted about it. you're insane if you think this is what busted looks like. The reason I want these sets to at least stay around their current powerlevel in pve at least (idc about pvp, i agree its broken there) is because otherwise these sets would just be useless, there is just no reason for them to be used by ANYONE anymore if this nerf hits live.

You seem to not understand core issue. It's not just about raw numbers that heavy attack setups can pull on dummy, it's about how those numbers are pulled which becomes really important in real fight scenarios. You say You can pull 90k on dummy which is almost 90% of what is considered high end DPS on fully optimised destro/destro setups.

Lets compare rotations needed to achieve those numbers on those two types of setups.

On one side You have fully optimised setup that needs to keep every uptime tight, perfectly and quickly rotate abilities and light attack inbetween them which at the end results with drawbacks like big consumption of magicka to the point sustaining on dummy is impossible without regen food and in real fights without group support even regen food wont be enough. Furthermore if You will use that food in real fights You will lower Your health pool which will lower Your survivability. At the end You are heavily reliant on others to pull top numbers on that setup. You've mentioned vamplar which adds even more drawbacks into the rotation because he needs to deal with consistant loss of health and lack of healing from others because of shimerring frenzy while playing in meele so one mistake can cost him life. That setup plays high risk high reward game, it's kinda logical he deserves more DPS.

On the other hand You have heavy attack setup that have none of the drawbacks mentioned above. Sustain on that setup is many times better sometimes to the point You wont even care about it. That combined with the fact You can choose double stat food also increases Your survivability in real fights. Rotation is slower and easier to keep up. In real fights that is huge adventage because You have less things to care about. All of that while keeping 85-90% of other fully optimised destro/destro setups.

You claim You could go and solo vSCP trifecta on any other setup. I really encourage You to do so, especially on mentioned by You vamplar. Then You will see how adventageous heavy attack setups are atm. Making no sacrifice in survivability and sustain plus having way easier rotation micromanagment while keeping 85-90% of top DPS possible with all mentioned sacrifices is busted and it's one of the reasons why You were able to complete vSCP trifecta failry easy compared to what would be needed to repeat that on regular setups. The best prove that it's busted is that heavy attack setups started to be real issue in PvP where survivability and sustain are even more important then in PvE. If You can keep those two at decent level while having simple source of high damage that is a recipe for a busted setup in both PvE and PvP.

sure, what would you like me to do it on + i didn't claim any other setup, there are only a few setups that can do this, but they are not limited to HA builds. by the way, you make some valid points but remember, in a lot of situations this build performs badly. It's very reliant on keeping a boss in dots, for sunspire and stuff this is fine but fights like AS this build is [snip], VCR too, awful and more. if the enemy is moving and you can't control where exactly its going, it will suffer immensely. 30% of the HA dmg is coming from standing in crushing wall, and HA/LA dmg is about 40% of the build.

People only use toggle in situations where they can get away with using it safely btw. they are not risking much. Yolna for example doesn't do dmg to any of the players other than flare so its completely fine to toggle away there. vCR+3 is another story, noone toggles there because you'll just die. you're making it seem like these builds don't have any context to them when they clearly do. There are no drawbacks to toggling in like 60% of situations. For getting double-triple my dps in scenarios don't you think thats a little crazy?

90k dps is in a perfect optimal situation. I have never hit even 80k dps in an actual situation with my build. It works well on the dummy, not in situations. you're fine if you hit about 60-75k with this setup in a decently optimized raid. I don't get how you can complain about this build existing. The fact that normal builds rely much less on their aoes to be on a static target makes them far superior.

1 more thing: this rotation isn't easy. it's a dynamic rotation on the dummy and in the fights in vSCP. It wasn't easy to do it. it took me hundreds of attempts, you're severely oversimplifying and making it look like all I'm doing is ''hurr durr hold left click heavy attarkc'' when in reality, all i'm doing is setting myself up to heavy attack 1-2 times per 13 seconds, due to the large amount of dots and aoes you need to upkeep, and this window of 2 heavy attacks can only be achieved if you have very good weaving, since you just barely have wall uptime at the last heavy attack even if you weave perfectly.

Here is a parse example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y54G4mcGr38

[edited for profanity bypass]

You can do it on whatever You want it'll still be not as effective. There are maybe few other setups that can do it effectively but that doesn't suddenly make things right since these setups will require more practice, awarness and clicking. And yes I agree this setup is not perfect everywhere but there are two issues with mindset like that. First issue is that being weak at one thing doesnt suddenly justify being way too strong at other. If there would be a set that deals lots of dmg to bosses like 20k DPS but works only in dungeons would that setup be ok because there are places where it's not working? Second issue is that basically every setup in the game can be described as situationally good, because there will be always different setup that is better at other aspects of the game then the ones original setup shines. For almost every setup You can create list of places where it'll be underperforming and You kinda proved my point later on while talking about vamplar. Argument about setup being bad at something doesn't hold up well.

Yeah I do realize people are using toogle in situations where they can get away with it but basically the same goes for HA builds. And when it comes to not risking much only people who knows how to play on that setup wont risk much for everyone else who tries it it'll most likely end pretty bad. Even keeping magicka at all time very low is tricky. Micromanagment on vampire with shimmering frenzy is more challenging then HA build thus it deserves more DPS. Saying it's a double or triple of DPS HA build can produce is massive over-exaggeration. If You would be in the same team as vamplar that lets say parsed 120k+ single target You would reach 90k+ easily. Ironically in this particular argument you're making it seem like these builds don't have any context to them when they clearly do.

I am pretty sure in perfect scenario in a good team HA setup could reach 100k+ same as some other setup can reach way higher numbers then on dummy. Real fight scenarios are obviously situational and based on many factors. Almost every PvE build relies heavily on enemy to stand in AoE, it's not like HA setup is forced to recast AoE DoTs when targets moves and regular setup isn't. Both will notice significant DPS drop if they don't.

Regular rotation is still harder. APM needs to be way higher plus there are additional micromanagment issues like keeping magicka low for bahsei. You may call it dynamic because You don't repeat skills at static order but it's nowhere near as dynamic as some other rotations can get. You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.

luchtt

''I am pretty sure in perfect scenario in a good team HA setup could reach 100k+ same as some other setup can reach way higher numbers then on dummy. Real fight scenarios are obviously situational and based on many factors. Almost every PvE build relies heavily on enemy to stand in AoE, it's not like HA setup is forced to recast AoE DoTs when targets moves and regular setup isn't. Both will notice significant DPS drop if they don't.

Regular rotation is still harder. APM needs to be way higher plus there are additional micromanagment issues like keeping magicka low for bahsei. You may call it dynamic because You don't repeat skills at static order but it's nowhere near as dynamic as some other rotations can get. You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

ok i just copied this part cause the quote button option looked a bit weird when i cut out most of it haha.

Very good points, but in these points specifically you are wrong: Ha setup unfortunately is required to recast aoe dots when the target moves. At least 2, to not lose 50% of dmg. you need to have target standing in wall, otherwise u lose about 30% of HA dmg, so big dps loss. also for unweaver at least you need to have casted a stam ability at least every 10s, which I usually do last when I barswap so I have highest uptime of unweaver, since wall uptime is a little bit lower dmg (1351 vs 1685) so it's okay to prioritize unweaver here. When a target moves out of my aoes basically my only dmg comes from HA and light attacks at that points, so my only buffs in effect possibly are: unweaver, infiltrator (1685 + 1685) and slimecraw + kilt, the only active abilities will be for my build at least: engulfing, burning embers, entropy, FoO, trap (which would be hard to hit depending on situation) and scalding, but scalding would be very hard to hit on a target I can't keep wall up on so ill omit it, but could add a little bit extra dps in i guess., in an optimal scenario. (lets just say this scenario would be the 21mil for ease of testing) in my tests, I am able to hit with the same build I showed in the video about 63k dps without wall and eruption up. The reason for this is because of the fact that HA, LA and everything that my sets bonus drops off by like 30% when missing wall. my test was a bit inconclusive since I was figuring out the rotation without wall, but I hope you get the point I try to make. 70k or around there is probably the highest possible without wall buff up permanently. Essentially what im trying to say is, that 90k is a dummy humping figure. Optimally in a lot of situations i peak at about 80k max.

Now:

''You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

Why is this ridiculous when all my 5 piece and wall are all focused on that exact part? I don't really get this part but ill explain why: If you have 2 5 piece bonuses, and another 2 piece bonus (vma staff) that all do 1 thing: add heavy/light attack flat dmg. wouldn't you expect it to be at least 30% of the damage? It's a bit unconventional, so it may seem very out of the ordinary compared to simple weapon or spell dmg stacking, but when you sacrifice all your pieces to buff a single type of damage, better expect that damage to overperform significantly compared to the rest of my damage. In many situations, my HA/LA combination of dmg on cmx confirms I am doing anywhere from 35-45% of my damage purely off that.

Why is that so bad? I don't really get your point. I am a fairly practiced person on this build so obviously im perfoming with it at near the highest possible level with it, and to me it seems pretty underwhelming in the grand scheme of things. any raid lead would be caught dead letting me into any HM prog. (tried it, hit 14k dps... crazy broken build i guess)

This is the way I see it: This build is very strong for the lower ends of damage, where, due to its inherent minimum dmg it's easy to keep up 30k+ dps in a lot of situations. This little bonus is very useful solo due to me being completely self buffed, so I profit from it immensely. After that, in higher ends of damage, it starts to fall off heavily with each increment of 10k dps above 60k. It becomes increasingly harder to get more dps after a certain point, as most builds should. but this build caps out litteraly at 90k dps. There is no denying it, with toggle you can hit like 92 ish but again, spell damage doesn't do anything for this build unless stacked super high obviously. It's a good entry level option and good players can get a lot of value out of its relatively bad set bonuses. For pvp this first point is bad because it gets easy access to high consistent damage, as i previously said I agree with it. what i can't agree with or even see is how you can think this build is OP or something. It's just not. It's decent, good in some situations. that's it. Yeah, it's an easier build due to its inherent easier weave option. Is that bad considering the dps its hitting? Not really. you can reach higher than 90k doing pretty much anything on a conventional build.

In fact, [snip] you can parse higher with this exact same rotation using relequen and pillar of nirn. Yeah. In fact, if I had more time I'd test every single remotely decent set and I am willing to bet some of them will hit higher than 100k with a HA build rotation. You think 90k is high, it's not. anyone can hit 90k with almost any setup and decent weaving. with a fully golded out build with optimized rotation a more expected result for my weaving would be 115 or more on the dummy for that.

I don't know why you continue to argue this [snip] point, but heavy attack builds will continue to be more or less mediocre/roleplay builds other than in solo scenarios until they nerf every single source of damage.

''you're not giving up anything for better survivability and rescources''' yes i am. I am doing exactly that. I'm giving up damage.

[edited for rude/insulting comment(s)]

Merforum

luchtt wrote: »

''I am pretty sure in perfect scenario in a good team HA setup could reach 100k+ same as some other setup can reach way higher numbers then on dummy. Real fight scenarios are obviously situational and based on many factors. Almost every PvE build relies heavily on enemy to stand in AoE, it's not like HA setup is forced to recast AoE DoTs when targets moves and regular setup isn't. Both will notice significant DPS drop if they don't.

Regular rotation is still harder. APM needs to be way higher plus there are additional micromanagment issues like keeping magicka low for bahsei. You may call it dynamic because You don't repeat skills at static order but it's nowhere near as dynamic as some other rotations can get. You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

ok i just copied this part cause the quote button option looked a bit weird when i cut out most of it haha.

Very good points, but in these points specifically you are wrong: Ha setup unfortunately is required to recast aoe dots when the target moves. At least 2, to not lose 50% of dmg. you need to have target standing in wall, otherwise u lose about 30% of HA dmg, so big dps loss. also for unweaver at least you need to have casted a stam ability at least every 10s, which I usually do last when I barswap so I have highest uptime of unweaver, since wall uptime is a little bit lower dmg (1351 vs 1685) so it's okay to prioritize unweaver here. When a target moves out of my aoes basically my only dmg comes from HA and light attacks at that points, so my only buffs in effect possibly are: unweaver, infiltrator (1685 + 1685) and slimecraw + kilt, the only active abilities will be for my build at least: engulfing, burning embers, entropy, FoO, trap (which would be hard to hit depending on situation) and scalding, but scalding would be very hard to hit on a target I can't keep wall up on so ill omit it, but could add a little bit extra dps in i guess., in an optimal scenario. (lets just say this scenario would be the 21mil for ease of testing) in my tests, I am able to hit with the same build I showed in the video about 63k dps without wall and eruption up. The reason for this is because of the fact that HA, LA and everything that my sets bonus drops off by like 30% when missing wall. my test was a bit inconclusive since I was figuring out the rotation without wall, but I hope you get the point I try to make. 70k or around there is probably the highest possible without wall buff up permanently. Essentially what im trying to say is, that 90k is a dummy humping figure. Optimally in a lot of situations i peak at about 80k max.

Now:

''You claim that You get 40% DPS from weapon attacks where vast majority will be heavies. It's kinda ridicolous this amount of dmg is produced by an attack You repeat 1-2 times every 13 seconds.''

Why is this ridiculous when all my 5 piece and wall are all focused on that exact part? I don't really get this part but ill explain why: If you have 2 5 piece bonuses, and another 2 piece bonus (vma staff) that all do 1 thing: add heavy/light attack flat dmg. wouldn't you expect it to be at least 30% of the damage? It's a bit unconventional, so it may seem very out of the ordinary compared to simple weapon or spell dmg stacking, but when you sacrifice all your pieces to buff a single type of damage, better expect that damage to overperform significantly compared to the rest of my damage. In many situations, my HA/LA combination of dmg on cmx confirms I am doing anywhere from 35-45% of my damage purely off that.

Why is that so bad? I don't really get your point. I am a fairly practiced person on this build so obviously im perfoming with it at near the highest possible level with it, and to me it seems pretty underwhelming in the grand scheme of things. any raid lead would be caught dead letting me into any HM prog. (tried it, hit 14k dps... crazy broken build i guess)

This is the way I see it: This build is very strong for the lower ends of damage, where, due to its inherent minimum dmg it's easy to keep up 30k+ dps in a lot of situations. This little bonus is very useful solo due to me being completely self buffed, so I profit from it immensely. After that, in higher ends of damage, it starts to fall off heavily with each increment of 10k dps above 60k. It becomes increasingly harder to get more dps after a certain point, as most builds should. but this build caps out litteraly at 90k dps. There is no denying it, with toggle you can hit like 92 ish but again, spell damage doesn't do anything for this build unless stacked super high obviously. It's a good entry level option and good players can get a lot of value out of its relatively bad set bonuses. For pvp this first point is bad because it gets easy access to high consistent damage, as i previously said I agree with it. what i can't agree with or even see is how you can think this build is OP or something. It's just not. It's decent, good in some situations. that's it. Yeah, it's an easier build due to its inherent easier weave option. Is that bad considering the dps its hitting? Not really. you can reach higher than 90k doing pretty much anything on a conventional build.

In fact, [snip] you can parse higher with this exact same rotation using relequen and pillar of nirn. Yeah. In fact, if I had more time I'd test every single remotely decent set and I am willing to bet some of them will hit higher than 100k with a HA build rotation. You think 90k is high, it's not. anyone can hit 90k with almost any setup and decent weaving. with a fully golded out build with optimized rotation a more expected result for my weaving would be 115 or more on the dummy for that.

I don't know why you continue to argue this [snip] point, but heavy attack builds will continue to be more or less mediocre/roleplay builds other than in solo scenarios until they nerf every single source of damage.

''you're not giving up anything for better survivability and rescources''' yes i am. I am doing exactly that. I'm giving up damage.

[edited for rude/insulting comment(s)]

Well PTS patch notes are out and nothing about these ridiculous nerfs in it. I don't blame the gatekeepers, cuz gatekeepers gonna gatekeep, but does anyone know why ZOS is listening to them?

remosito

week one patch rarely has any balance adjustement if memory servers right....but old brain...might misremember...

be that as it may.. might misremember this too.. but zos generally has not given much consideration to player feedback when they decided to nerf sets/skills/playstyles into the ground..

basically not hopeful these sets will survive the patch cycle in any useful to pve shape..

merpins

Yet again a case of Zos changing something for PVE or PVP for it to seriously effect the other one.
I know the change is for shock staff procing 4 times with the boost from these sets in pvp, making for ridiculous heavy-attack ganking builds. But in pve it's not a problem, and is still suboptimal in most set-ups. Nerfing these sets doesn't fix the problem, since the problem is one of two thinngs:
1. Lightning staff and how it works in pvp. Changing how lightning staff works could help fix the problem, but again, it will just nerf pve players when trying to fix something in pvp.
2. Zos continues to do the *** backwards thing of balancing pve and pvp at the same time. I've said it before and I will say it again:

Zos. Please. Make the infrastructure you need to balance pve and pvp separately. You are constantly having to take time and resources playing this trapeze balancing act, and you are constantly falling off said trapeze after taking one step. This isn't working. Most other MMO's balance pve and pvp separately, just do it for ESO. Even if it takes time an effort to make what you need to be able to balance them separately, it will save time in the long run by making it so you don't have to jump through so many hoops to balance both at the same time as often as you do. You'll only benefit from this, because it will allow you to redesign some pve skills that aren't used in pvp to be better in pvp (even entirely changing the skills) without effecting the skills in pve, and then you can do the same for pvp skills for pve! You'd have free reign to do a lot of cool stuff, but you're just tripping over your own two feet trying to balance a bowling ball on your head while simultaneously trying to keep four hula hoops going. It makes no sense!

Succuby

You can play random sets and kill people just the same. There will be always people who can not play and say some thing to nerf you:
https://youtu.be/h_JSXSBppOA

Why nerf of good players have to be base on such peoples opinion ?

Lalothen

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

Succuby

Star to protect playersfrom HAwas in old CP, now HA issuch usless thing that players even do not need it.

But HA sets are too OP yes.

The people who "can not block attacks" are exp enough to say about it.

Dodge HA from beam and say how OP sets are - and how not skilled HA player is.

Yes Yes - LA players way of play.

If you do not like some thing - just nerf it.

Worked perfect for last 2 years do not you think ?

Succuby

Lalothen wrote: »

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

With current hot healing i do not thing not to oneshot player will be any option to kill him.

Templars, sorcs with overload have the same damage we get from combo of sets, we can not block whyle caat HA, but - for LA players block already not exist. LA GOD say it ! Nothing not LA exists !

And if it does ... NERF IT !!! NERF IT !!!

luchtt

Lalothen wrote: »

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

I think this change would be really good, perhaps a bit too good for players like me who min max the hell out of these builds, it's a welcome change though. I don't think zos intended to nerf these builds for pve specifcally at least. and in pvp i mean be honest. these builds are, if not kind of annoying.. just weak.

I tried to use my main sets, good pvp traits, consulted some good pvpers and it just doesnt work well. It's annoying at best and with no real burst other than random off balance procs you're unlikely to kill anyone with an actual pvp build. The people complaining about these sets specifically are just salty that they can't dodge roll them.. which is honestly fair. You can't even hit pve mobs that dodgeroll. But other than that, just block. It can't really hit more than 4k per tick on even squishy targets unless they're off balance or if you're in a really good situation. I don't think nerfing these sets in pvp will change much if anything. You can still make a good pvp build with these changes with heavy attack as your main damage form due to storm master still existing.

I think heavy attack builds are just a niche option that could use a buff but is otherwise in a fairly good spot balance wise. High sustain, in exchange for damage is fair tradeoff, it's what any other build does, it's just a game of how much sustain you can comfortably live with while dishing out enough damage. I've seen people say that these builds have too much sustain with no drop in damage which is simply untrue. for a heavy attack build it's in a way the opposite, it's more about how much damage can you dish out with a bad spammable/sets and infinite sustain. That's why some builds hit decently high and the vast majority hit low. The sets are bad. 1 line of crit, 2 lines of max rescources is just.. not that good, especially when you consider I don't ever hit above 4.6k spell damage with my build, my other abilities are barely worth using, so the infinite sustain doesn't matter too much when you can't even do half the damage with all those juicy high cost abilities to spam for ''free''. Not to mention that any interrupt to my HA means I lose all my sustain, if I miss 2 heavy attacks finishes, I'm already extremely low mag due to the high cost of abilities you need to use to even compete with the damage, and in a decent of scenarios you can't consistently finish a HA due to roll dodge, target moving etc. so rescource management at the highest level is still important. 640 mag recovery is litteraly below the amount needed to even sustain Eruption's 340mag/s cost lmfaoo. I'm ranting so ill stop haha.

Merforum

luchtt wrote: »

Lalothen wrote: »

Given what I've seen in another thread, it's possible to hit 100k dummy DPS using a hybrid setup and no basic attacks at all on PTS now, thanks to the skill scaling change - and since you're using both resource pools sustain is going to be easier overall, especially in group scenarios with support sets that yield a portion of both resource types at once (Rkugamz, VH resto, etc)

This frankly makes the UU/UI/Noble silks change even stranger, especially given hybrid LA builds are now reaching for the 130k dummy DPS mark. It essentially puts HA builds using these sets around 50% behind in terms of comparitive DPS and more or less invalidates the supposed justification that they should have lower DPS because of the added sustain.... lolwut?

This change needs to go back to being a flat base damage buff, that flat buff should actually be increased to around 2,500-2750 (Storm Master should be included, and Infallible Aether too with a smaller dmg bonus of around 1250-1400 applying to both light and heavy attacks), and then reduced by 50% or so against players as has already been suggested.

Job done; HA builds using these sets stay around 25-30k or so behind LA builds, and they get nerfed for PvP. Frankly though given the hybrid PvP meta I see building up around the max stats change, they could probably make the reduction 30% against players and it would still be less burst potential than a hybrd LA weave build is going to be capable of....

I think this change would be really good, perhaps a bit too good for players like me who min max the hell out of these builds, it's a welcome change though. I don't think zos intended to nerf these builds for pve specifcally at least. and in pvp i mean be honest. these builds are, if not kind of annoying.. just weak.

I tried to use my main sets, good pvp traits, consulted some good pvpers and it just doesnt work well. It's annoying at best and with no real burst other than random off balance procs you're unlikely to kill anyone with an actual pvp build. The people complaining about these sets specifically are just salty that they can't dodge roll them.. which is honestly fair. You can't even hit pve mobs that dodgeroll. But other than that, just block. It can't really hit more than 4k per tick on even squishy targets unless they're off balance or if you're in a really good situation. I don't think nerfing these sets in pvp will change much if anything. You can still make a good pvp build with these changes with heavy attack as your main damage form due to storm master still existing.

I think heavy attack builds are just a niche option that could use a buff but is otherwise in a fairly good spot balance wise. High sustain, in exchange for damage is fair tradeoff, it's what any other build does, it's just a game of how much sustain you can comfortably live with while dishing out enough damage. I've seen people say that these builds have too much sustain with no drop in damage which is simply untrue. for a heavy attack build it's in a way the opposite, it's more about how much damage can you dish out with a bad spammable/sets and infinite sustain. That's why some builds hit decently high and the vast majority hit low. The sets are bad. 1 line of crit, 2 lines of max rescources is just.. not that good, especially when you consider I don't ever hit above 4.6k spell damage with my build, my other abilities are barely worth using, so the infinite sustain doesn't matter too much when you can't even do half the damage with all those juicy high cost abilities to spam for ''free''. Not to mention that any interrupt to my HA means I lose all my sustain, if I miss 2 heavy attacks finishes, I'm already extremely low mag due to the high cost of abilities you need to use to even compete with the damage, and in a decent of scenarios you can't consistently finish a HA due to roll dodge, target moving etc. so rescource management at the highest level is still important. 640 mag recovery is litteraly below the amount needed to even sustain Eruption's 340mag/s cost lmfaoo. I'm ranting so ill stop haha.

Exactly right these sets are just about worthless in PVP, believe me I tried to make them work. But stacking all set to do one thing you lose, and those sets having bad stats, you have low w/s damage, NO defense (unless using sithis), NO burst and as you say unless you complete those heavies which is very hard with so much LOS, you don't even get any sustain. And the thing people are annoyed about which is getting lightning/restro heavies attached to them, can be done with ANY MAG build.

We all know what this is, only question is will ZOS eliminate a very weak but fun playstyle just because a handful of people hate it. BTW the exact same people will say 'why do people call us toxic?'.

divnyi

Lmao this thread is "I wasn't able to make heavy attacks work so they don't work in PvP".

If only someone would make videos about heavy attack builds, so people would know how broken they are...

Merforum

remosito wrote: »

week one patch rarely has any balance adjustement if memory servers right....but old brain...might misremember...

be that as it may.. might misremember this too.. but zos generally has not given much consideration to player feedback when they decided to nerf sets/skills/playstyles into the ground..

basically not hopeful these sets will survive the patch cycle in any useful to pve shape..

Hopefully you are right about this being addressed later but I don't think week1 thing is actually a precedence since I saw this in patch notes.

"Nazaray:
This set no longer extends the duration of Damage over Time effects.
Increased the duration of the extension to 1 second per 20 Ultimate spent, up from 1 second per 25 Ultimate spent."

BTW this thread is "Why NERF a playstyle in PVE that some people don't like in PVP", and proponents have been so wrong in their assessment now people are realizing, wait a second these sets aren't even OP at all in PVP either.

Succuby

HA was named weakest in PVE and PVP since 2017 year i come to the game, so good players take them and like its play style, makes its own community.

After 4 years pass - no real upgrade was made for us and i can even show video proofs on youtube ! With new CP even with allchanges my DPSdrops down from what i had before even with all HA new skills updates but ok, drop was about 1 k dps so ok, let it be.

But now when a lot of players who play good enough and like thats sets and game style play HA - you say that it is OP.

But what will really change, if the same players will kill the same in random gear - but even random sets, i just show video before ?

You will be happy, that such players just can not play HA ? It is our sets in both PVEand PVP, and as one of people who upgrade all this game style from near beginning i can say - there are builds much more better than this, that i can not do nothing in HA builds.

If i can kill people in random gear OK - i can copy paste builds that is already better and what will change ?

I see no nerf in such builds in this patch.

HA build hit hard, but it fight with honor - it can not run away.

But i see that you most likely love run 10 by 1 around trees, it is more skilled for this game ?

Or kill 2 on 1 by one shot from stealth ?

Do not see it often here by the way, because majority of players here do not even know that assist exist and can not play that way.

They can randomly use buttons and when see some thing they can understand - "beam is easy to understand" - they say - OP nerf it.

HA played from start that way, we do not hide and we can not run away - sets do not let that, very honorable play !

But it will not be a problem to oneshot likeratsother players for exp players.

But ido not want play that way.

Do you know why such builds do not get nerfs ?

Because players are not skilled enoughto nerf it - they do not understand what kill them and can not do ticket !

But you reallydo not need know much to make a topic:

Heavy attack kills us - nerf it.

But the same will start even if as example player willuse inphrlible aether + relequin, it has nearthesame damage as infiltrator !

Next relequin than ?

And if you nerf one sets, whydo you do not nerf the same others ?

Because we do not use them now - we can !
Why is not maelstorm staff nerfed ???

We use it ! It hits a lot, the same as infiltrator - the full set. In PTS it is 2-3 times better than infiltrator !

May be becouse LA players just "do not like this nerf" because they use thesame staff ?

And where is justice in it ???

If you balance - OK than change all the same sets. But if you just change small amount of it by ones groups choise it is not named balance !

It is named GMs help to people they just like more !

It is not much different then draw accounts, characters or top gear to players - that people do not like in other games.

But here it goes even more you draw balance - just for a group of players.

It is not change that is based on any health logick.

Merforum

Succuby wrote: »

HA was named weakest in PVE and PVP since 2017 year i come to the game, so good players take them and like its play style, makes its own community.

After 4 years pass - no real upgrade was made for us and i can even show video proofs on youtube ! With new CP even with allchanges my DPSdrops down from what i had before even with all HA new skills updates but ok, drop was about 1 k dps so ok, let it be.

But now when a lot of players who play good enough and like thats sets and game style play HA - you say that it is OP.

But what will really change, if the same players will kill the same in random gear - but even random sets, i just show video before ?

You will be happy, that such players just can not play HA ? It is our sets in both PVEand PVP, and as one of people who upgrade all this game style from near beginning i can say - there are builds much more better than this, that i can not do nothing in HA builds.

If i can kill people in random gear OK - i can copy paste builds that is already better and what will change ?

I see no nerf in such builds in this patch.

HA build hit hard, but it fight with honor - it can not run away.

But i see that you most likely love run 10 by 1 around trees, it is more skilled for this game ?

Or kill 2 on 1 by one shot from stealth ?

Do not see it often here by the way, because majority of players here do not even know that assist exist and can not play that way.

They can randomly use buttons and when see some thing they can understand - "beam is easy to understand" - they say - OP nerf it.

HA played from start that way, we do not hide and we can not run away - sets do not let that, very honorable play !

But it will not be a problem to oneshot likeratsother players for exp players.

But ido not want play that way.

Do you know why such builds do not get nerfs ?

Because players are not skilled enoughto nerf it - they do not understand what kill them and can not do ticket !

But you reallydo not need know much to make a topic:

Heavy attack kills us - nerf it.

But the same will start even if as example player willuse inphrlible aether + relequin, it has nearthesame damage as infiltrator !

Next relequin than ?

And if you nerf one sets, whydo you do not nerf the same others ?

Because we do not use them now - we can !
Why is not maelstorm staff nerfed ???

We use it ! It hits a lot, the same as infiltrator - the full set. In PTS it is 2-3 times better than infiltrator !

May be becouse LA players just "do not like this nerf" because they use thesame staff ?

And where is justice in it ???

If you balance - OK than change all the same sets. But if you just change small amount of it by ones groups choise it is not named balance !

It is named GMs help to people they just like more !

It is not much different then draw accounts, characters or top gear to players - that people do not like in other games.

But here it goes even more you draw balance - just for a group of players.

It is not change that is based on any health logick.

Very logical point if this bonus damage is so terrible that it must be nerfed why not maelstrom staff too. It is illegitimate to nerf only a few sets that a few people use and completely ignore other sets that do the exact same thing (WHICH ARE EVEN POPULAR meaning more evidence they are OP). So you will force people to use sets that are already popular to do the same playstyle. Way to make a few more sets completely useless and force less variety, for WHAT/WHO?

BTW I AM NOT SAYING TO NERF Maelstrom staff, because that would be as stupid as the changes to UU/UI/ND.

I think at the very least we need a DEV NOTE about WHY this change is being made.

divnyi

Merforum wrote: »

now people are realizing, wait a second these sets aren't even OP at all in PVP either.

They are OP in PvP.

Succuby wrote: »

HA played from start that way, we do not hide and we can not run away - sets do not let that, very honorable play !

Speak for yourself. I run at +65% speeds minimum. I oneshot with heavy attack NB.

Merforum wrote: »

Very logical point if this bonus damage is so terrible that it must be nerfed why not maelstrom staff too. It is illegitimate to nerf only a few sets that a few people use and completely ignore other sets that do the exact same thing (WHICH ARE EVEN POPULAR meaning more evidence they are OP).

Maelstrom is much less of a problem in PvP, storm procs at full heavy crit and it much harder proc overall. Other 3 sets are dead easy to proc.

Merforum

NO point it speculating, WE NEED A DEV NOTE!!

Succuby

Any build will be OP in hands of goodplayer against a bad player in PVP, so it is not even some thing strange. Do not think any good procs sets combination will be much worse.

But the main problem is, that is is our PVE builds !!!

And even if some nerfs in PVP, its okif we gain more PVE damage than. Do not really care much about Po VP in this sets when there is oneshot fire HA builds as example we can copy

Succuby

https://youtu.be/mDJBKyQ1n2k

Just test my idea - even so HA builds work, but not to good. But if change releq as example for some more cancer dot sets - all becomes fine again. Even better than before, so ... ty for PVE sets nerf ... but it will not change really anything in PVP.

If ZOS explain may be a reason of such changes ???

But even if do not use classic PVP ha builds (knoght slayer+torug) or pve(infiltrator + aether) - just any 2 proc sets works just exactly the same,may be even better ... what really changed ?

We can not do the same damage on it in PVE and they are useless sets, ok 3 more useless sets in game, but no real change not in pve not in pvp - just the same PVE and PVP results but in little different sets.

All we lost one of our favorite sets but ... it is not realy different to do all damage with HA or the same damage with HA + DOT from just tons of same sets.

So you only make HA players much more angryer ... .

Nothing realy changed.

Very strange change.

And plus to all this that HA was not fixed yet - so on live servers now is bug that or do not let you use HA or you can not stop it, to block or heal yourself as example. (Skills do not work after that)

On ha you need use ha all the time to do damage with as example 2 dot proc sets we will lose a lot of problems with it.

So sets nerfs are really ... strange and just stupid change.

Do not expect HA bug will be fixed this update as example some skills that already do not just work for year+, but even so ... no real changes.

Foto1

Succuby wrote: »

https://youtu.be/mDJBKyQ1n2k

Just test my idea - even so HA builds work, but not to good. But if change releq as example for some more cancer dot sets - all becomes fine again. Even better than before, so ... ty for PVE sets nerf ... but it will not change really anything in PVP.

If ZOS explain may be a reason of such changes ???

But even if do not use classic PVP ha builds (knoght slayer+torug) or pve(infiltrator + aether) - just any 2 proc sets works just exactly the same,may be even better ... what really changed ?

We can not do the same damage on it in PVE and they are useless sets, ok 3 more useless sets in game, but no real change not in pve not in pvp - just the same PVE and PVP results but in little different sets.

All we lost one of our favorite sets but ... it is not realy different to do all damage with HA or the same damage with HA + DOT from just tons of same sets.

So you only make HA players much more angryer ... .

Nothing realy changed.

Very strange change.

And plus to all this that HA was not fixed yet - so on live servers now is bug that or do not let you use HA or you can not stop it, to block or heal yourself as example. (Skills do not work after that)

On ha you need use ha all the time to do damage with as example 2 dot proc sets we will lose a lot of problems with it.

So sets nerfs are really ... strange and just stupid change.

Do not expect HA bug will be fixed this update as example some skills that already do not just work for year+, but even so ... no real changes.

Who even uses knight sleer and torug in pvp?

techprince

Nerfs are justified for PvP. Not so much for PvE.

Succuby

PVP do not change much if HA players just return even on old knight slayer and torug, but there are already better combinations.

And yes, not to much players use torug and knight slayer in pvp. It is to old and not interesting to use the same sets all the time they are already old but as example knight slayer + not torug set can be the same popular again

Lalothen

Well they added sergeant's mail to the list of sets getting changed to the new calculation. I think that tells us what we need to know about the chances of getting this reverted tbh.

Darkstorne

Lalothen wrote: »

Well they added sergeant's mail to the list of sets getting changed to the new calculation. I think that tells us what we need to know about the chances of getting this reverted tbh.

Storm Master set in the next patch then?

Hopefully they take the opportunity to rework it a bit. On live it provides a weaker LA/HA damage buff than similar sets, despite requiring a heavy attack crit to proc the buff, which has always confused me.

remosito

Darkstorne wrote: »

Lalothen wrote: »

Well they added sergeant's mail to the list of sets getting changed to the new calculation. I think that tells us what we need to know about the chances of getting this reverted tbh.

Storm Master set in the next patch then?

Hopefully they take the opportunity to rework it a bit. On live it provides a weaker LA/HA damage buff than similar sets, despite requiring a heavy attack crit to proc the buff, which has always confused me.

and the elephant in the room.... maelstrom staff...

remosito

anybody know any endpoints at microsoft or organisations that could be contacted in view of this dastardly attack on the ability of disabled and injured people to play halfway decently?

I doubt ZOS has any such thing..but maybe Microsoft. I doubt they'll be happy about their new purchase making them look like villains..

luchtt

remosito wrote: »

anybody know any endpoints at microsoft or organisations that could be contacted in view of this dastardly attack on the ability of disabled and injured people to play halfway decently?

I doubt ZOS has any such thing..but maybe Microsoft. I doubt they'll be happy about their new purchase making them look like villains..

i like this idea, i for one dont care how it happens, just want to keep these 3 sets the same (duelist/ undaunted sets) they are fine the way they are. seems like zos has no interest in it atm so lets force their hand xD