sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »In response to nublife a few posts above:
-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.
-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.
-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.
I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.
Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.
I don’t disagree that procs are effective. I think it’s cool that they are. Like I said, you bring up some valid points and concerns. Ultimately the game should be balanced so that you see all kinds of sets in all kinds of pvp. That’s hard to do though, and for most of ESO’s history stat builds have dominated high end pvp
universal_wrath wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.
You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »
I don’t disagree that procs are effective. I think it’s cool that they are. Like I said, you bring up some valid points and concerns. Ultimately the game should be balanced so that you see all kinds of sets in all kinds of pvp. That’s hard to do though, and for most of ESO’s history stat builds have dominated high end pvp
NordSwordnBoard wrote: »If they eventually nerf the proc sets like they did with DoTs, where does that leave the newer players who depended on them?
A couple friends of mine came over from another game. I crafted sets for them that boost their stats like Hundings and shackle breaker so they focus on skills and rotations for damage as they learn. I think damage proc set boosts will mostly hurt those that depend on it in the long term. I doubt all sets will be perfectly tuned, and the precedent is a nerf hammer not a scalpel gets used to adjust later on after all the cries.
If these boosts happen, but don't follow the same rise and fall pattern the DoT META did, I'll be very surprised.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.
if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.
universal_wrath wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.
You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.
if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
universal_wrath wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.
You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.
if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.
I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.
I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.
Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:
1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.
2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »
The skill ceiling is still high in this game, despite this game being about "fun" and not some elitist measure of "skill" to begin with. This is not a competitive esports game like counterstrike, its a fun MMO. Its already commendable how high the skill ceiling is in a game that's focused on being fun.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.
Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:
1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.
2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.
I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.
Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.
A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.
I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.
Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:
1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.
2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.
I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.
Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.
A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.
I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay
I agree, I think the sets that provide a status/buff/stat to your character are more valuable than proc sets that put a status on the target. The first cannot be directly countered or removed, and they carry over from target to target.
The real cancer set next patch is not one of the proc sets people are so worried about.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »
I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.
Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.
A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.
I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay
exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »
They know that stat based builds have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made.