Proc Sets Are Fun: The Silent Majority

sabresandiego_ESO

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Proc sets on the PTS right now are overtuned with how combat team currently has things set up. The devs know this and should listen to the majority of feedback, that does not want to see this go live.

For a good reason, it is highly unbalanced. It will also take away any skilled combat that is enjoyed in ESO PvP.

I think the OP is misunderstanding that the casual players will suffer the most from this. It is also not about proc sets but how they are functioning on the PTS, to be more correct.

Sets such as NMA were a very good step the right direction. Going towards a somewhat balanced PvPing experience. More sets like this would of been a great thing to add in.

Proc sets as they are right now on live, really are not that much of an issue. Of course they are fun and serve their purpose but Proc Sets should not be a dominant factor in PvP combat. Past patches have shown us this.

If the PTS goes live as it presently is it will be another failure like the dot meta. The causal players will complain and ask for nerfs and ESO PvP will be in a worse mess. This will take away any progress made.

Why shouldn't proc sets be dominant? Or best in slot? Why can't the best pvp set be a proc set? Because it's free damage?

This game isnt a skill measuring contest. Its about fun. Stat builds have dominated the highest tiers of PVP for the majority of this game's life outside of a few windows. Proc sets are a welcome change.

In my opinion, the best PVP this game offers isnt CP or dueling, its BG's. Why? Simply because they are the most fun (for me). And procs are already very good in NOCP bg's.

relentless_turnip

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

sabresandiego_ESO

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

Girl_Number8

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Proc sets on the PTS right now are overtuned with how combat team currently has things set up. The devs know this and should listen to the majority of feedback, that does not want to see this go live.

For a good reason, it is highly unbalanced. It will also take away any skilled combat that is enjoyed in ESO PvP.

I think the OP is misunderstanding that the casual players will suffer the most from this. It is also not about proc sets but how they are functioning on the PTS, to be more correct.

Sets such as NMA were a very good step the right direction. Going towards a somewhat balanced PvPing experience. More sets like this would of been a great thing to add in.

Proc sets as they are right now on live, really are not that much of an issue. Of course they are fun and serve their purpose but Proc Sets should not be a dominant factor in PvP combat. Past patches have shown us this.

If the PTS goes live as it presently is it will be another failure like the dot meta. The causal players will complain and ask for nerfs and ESO PvP will be in a worse mess. This will take away any progress made.

Why shouldn't proc sets be dominant? Or best in slot? Why can't the best pvp set be a proc set? Because it's free damage?

This game isnt a skill measuring contest. Its about fun. Stat builds have dominated the highest tiers of PVP for the majority of this game's life outside of a few windows. Proc sets are a welcome change.

In my opinion, the best PVP this game offers isnt CP or dueling, its BG's. Why? Simply because they are the most fun (for me). And procs are already very good in NOCP bg's.

I explained why in detail and past patches have shown us why.

Girl_Number8

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

Stx

So a few things:

1) I agree with you. I like proc sets, and I think they are a lot more fun to play with compared to stat sets.

2) When combined with Malacath, I believe they deal too much damage in pvp and due to crit resistance, the trade off isnt there, especially since proc sets cant crit anyway. The best possible solution to this problem in my opinion is to have Malacath not boost proc sets, because they cant crit anyway.

3) I dont think anyone can make the broad claim that proc sets are imbalanced as a whole. I think certain proc sets may be imbalanced, such as caluurions, or doylemish. There are also some proc sets that are terrible. Bottom line is, each set needs to be tested.

There is a video circulating right now of a pvp youtuber wearing malacath with 3 proc sets and doing nothing but light attacking to trigger them and he is able to kill a so called good pvper and also never run out of resources while also having a huge health pool. I honestly dont think that video proves much, but it does raise a good point that maybe proc sets should interact with weapon damage or stamina in some way.

Onefrkncrzypope

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

Gilvoth

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

sabresandiego_ESO

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

I disagree with most of this here. There are already a few really good proc sets in the game such as Caluurion, Viper, Sunderflame, etc. Ill use venemous smite as an example since its new. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.

When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.

kojou

Maybe certain proc sets could be like mythic items and you can't wear 2 of a type...

SHOW

>"Heavy Armor Tank Meta" enters chat.

>"Proc Set Meta" enters chat.

>"Malacath" enters chat.

>"New players" get absolutely destroyed and can't kill anyone, leave chat...

>"Experienced players" get bored, no one left to kill but other proc tanks, leave chat...


(No one enjoys watching 2 tank's armor fight each other LOL)

Fur_like_snow

The condition for a proc has become so easy on PTS with most sets firing off on light attacks or gap closers. The bigger the impact(tooltip) the more difficult it should be to proc.

Onefrkncrzypope

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.

When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.

Disagreeing with me doesn't make it false. Did you read how a proc set could be helpful? Where you around when Procs like these where a thing? How many people say the exact opposite of you about BGs? One set is fine like I said 3 on the other hand isn't.

sabresandiego_ESO

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.

When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.

Disagreeing with me doesn't make it false. Did you read how a proc set could be helpful? Where you around when Procs like these where a thing? How many people say the exact opposite of you about BGs? One set is fine like I said 3 on the other hand isn't.

I've had this game since beta. Played it consistently with multiple breaks of 6-9months every so often. I've used all kinds of builds: stats, procs, and everything in between. Eventually, the game always becomes stale. Shifting the meta is what makes it new and exciting again, and has to be done a few times a year. Otherwise, its the same thing over and over. In my opinion, next patch looks really fun.

jaws343

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

I disagree with most of this here. There are already a few really good proc sets in the game such as Caluurion, Viper, Sunderflame, etc. Ill use venemous smite as an example since its new. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.

When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.

When everyone is running proc sets because they are no brainer easy, you don't get build diversity at all. Just because they have a choice between a bunch of proc sets that do obscene amounts of damage for zero effort doesn't mean they are diverse. Some proc sets are used in live BGs but it is an actual trade off to run them because the procs have conditions and the damage isn't over tuned. That is literally build diversity, the very build diversity that keeps getting brought up. Players making choices to augment their builds. When everyone is running proc sets because they are the best, you lose build diversity entirely and the lower tier player suffers even more.

likecats

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.

Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health

I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.

When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.

Disagreeing with me doesn't make it false. Did you read how a proc set could be helpful? Where you around when Procs like these where a thing? How many people say the exact opposite of you about BGs? One set is fine like I said 3 on the other hand isn't.

I've had this game since beta. Played it consistently with multiple breaks of 6-9months every so often. I've used all kinds of builds: stats, procs, and everything in between. Eventually, the game always becomes stale. Shifting the meta is what makes it new and exciting again, and has to be done a few times a year. Otherwise, its the same thing over and over. In my opinion, next patch looks really fun.

If you've been here in beta do you remember fighting people running Knight errant's mail + viper + tremorscale in 2016?
I can reassure you it was the most cancer setup I have ever fought with and against.

You can run a full tank build with 30k+ health with no damage or sustain what so ever, and still do very well because puncture is a cheap af skill, and it procs 3 things at once allowing you to do tons of damage, while healing from knight errant's mail.

If proc sets become BIS in PVP, we will once again see the cancerous meta like the set combination I described above. It's fine to shake up the meta, but that can be done without introducing proc sets that will ruin PVP.

Playboy_Shrek

agreed. proc sets are fun, but this forum is generally full of elite players that want stat sets that buff your micromechanics to be way better than proc sets. right or wrong thats how it is

atm most proc sets are just not very good. some of the buffs on the pts are actual nerfs. like reducing damage significantly to increase proc rate. which isnt always good. like for example the change to red mountain. thats a straight up nerf.

likecats

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

agreed. proc sets are fun, but this forum is generally full of elite players that want stat sets that buff your micromechanics to be way better than proc sets. right or wrong thats how it is

atm most proc sets are just not very good. some of the buffs on the pts are actual nerfs. like reducing damage significantly to increase proc rate. which isnt always good. like for example the change to red mountain. thats a straight up nerf.

Red mountain set is a major buff lol. You can proc 6000 damage (more with malacath now) every 2 seconds reliably.
The old viper which was considered the ultimate OP proc set did about 7500 damage every 4 seconds.

Now you might say that red mountain can be dodged (unlike old viper), but no one will really dodge something that happens every 2 seconds, just not realistic.

idk

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.

Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.

I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.

The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue because it tells those lesser experienced players (weaker as you put it) they do not have to learn how to play as they can rely on proc sets playing the game for them. Nothing in the statement replying to my previous statement argues against that.

Cheers

Proc sets have the potential to be overpowered: but they have been underpowered for most of this games history ever since they nerfed viper/tremorscale etc...

You are also assuming that skill is something that comes to anybody who takes time to learn: that's just not true. Some players are just extremely good, and some are terrible no matter how much they try.

I assumed nothing. Please do not put words into my mouth.

katorga

There are only so many combinations of stats you can place on a set barring inflating the values on each line. It is stale, and limited. As the sets are balanced by formula against each other, they are are basically the same.Proc sets are were the variety comes from, and that includes proc stat sets as well as proc damage sets.

I would bet money that the majority of the player base loves them.

That said, if we end up with more than the current ~10 sets that are actually competitive endgame in pvp and pve, we are going to need more bank space.

TheActuary130

Imagine comparing proc sets to welfare, then suggesting they should be best in slot.

sabresandiego_ESO

TheActuary130 wrote: »

Imagine comparing proc sets to welfare, then suggesting they should be best in slot.

Welfare for the poor is small amounts of free money, unemployment, subsidized housing, and food stamps. It raises the floor so that poor people don’t suffer -> however it runs the risk of making people lazy and dependant. Proc sets are very similar here and if they aren’t balanced properly can become a negative thing. But it’s of my opinion that the devs are balancing proc sets correctly.

Welfare for the rich is similar to capital gains and business tax exemptions and write offs. This is like good players using proc sets. They are a valid option and should be, all elite players running stat sets is incredibly bland and boring.

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

What I ran isn't a dueling build, it's an open world build on the PTS where only dueling is an option. My mag bar never ran below 60%, my burst with just light attacks and fetcher was enough to kill a current open world pvp build. My content revolves around open world pvp against open world pvp builds which is exactly what I highlighted in the video.

It is an "anti proc" viewpoint when i kill someone with just light attacks in CP, and i could do the same thing but much faster in no cp.

Imagine how annoyed you would be if fury and new moon were so powerful you could die to light attacks and one DOT. now reverse it.

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

universal_wrath

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Most new sets in this game are proc sets, and for a good reason: they give the devs a lot of creative ability and are a lot of fun for the majority of players. You get cool new animations and game mechanics and if the set was designed properly, it usually has fair counterplay and good balance.

Unfortunately there is a very vocal minority of elitists and purists who always post in these forums against proc sets. These players are almost always high level PVP'rs (often duelers) with very big egos who think that their personal assessment of "skill" matters more than "fun" for the majority of players. These elitists are usually heavily invested in stat based builds and run things like balorghs, new moon, fury, clever alch, dragonguard, bloodspawn: and are extremely biased towards their investment and the way they have been playing this game for years. Their primary argument is that proc sets remove skill from the game because they fight for you, whereas with stat sets and stat based procs -> you still have to do the fighting. Let me explain why that is a false premise

1. When you use a damage proc set you give up the buffed stats you would have gotten with a stat based 5 piece set. This means that your entire character is less effective and unless the proc set is good enough of an alternative to this "opportunity cost" -> nobody will use it over the stat sets

2. No proc set is good enough where you don't have to "play" , because these sets go through balance testing. Whether you are using procs, or stat sets -> you still have to play the game. Proc sets do help newer/worse players contribute more, so they raise the skill floor -> but they don't lower the skill ceiling much at all because high end players understand counterplay and always adapt to new metas.

3. Devs have data: They can see that most of the high end PVPrs are using stat sets... They know that stat based builds have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made. The only place where procs might be outperforming stats now is in NOCP, and that is refreshing because it creates alternative gameplay. Data > Biased rants on forums; and that is likely the reason why they recently improved all proc sets.

This game is about fun, not about some elitist measurement of skill. Proc sets give the devs so much more creative potential than most simple stat buff sets, and are fun for the majority of the player base. They raise the skill floor just enough to help weaker players contribute and enjoy the game more (without lowering the skill ceiling much), and they also help shift metas around which keeps this game new and exciting.

Proc sets are fun, in PvE atleast. As for PvP, when you have 5k+ weapon damage then you get hit be a simple dot from a proc set that doing as much damage as heals you get from vigor, that is not fun. Play without proc sets and trying to go for raw stats makes a person complately at disadvantage. On top of the player's spammable skills that deal atleast 3-4k, they deal free damage every × seconds from 1k up to 6k and in some cases 7k. This damage can be a damage over time or burst damage. I personally play proc sets on some of my PvE ults and I like it so much. You can go on youtube and watch some of the youtubers testing the improved proc sets and see of that us balanced to fight against. Youtubers, elitest, top high mm player or daulist usauly assess the strength of proc sets to how much damage they generate, how fast, and how easy.

In PvP, skills matter, I don't spend 5-6hours a day prcaticing PvP and improving on daily basis just for a newcomer with proc sets can kill me with 1 or 2 buttons or even makes me sweat to kill them.

Mortiis13

Proc sets with a percentage chance are fine. They are unpredictable. Rng.

Proc sets that only have a CD and can hit in 1 GCD with a delayed burst, La, skill + another proc set on demand is bad in pvp.
Zero skill is required, no counterplay for the other player(heal nerf, defence set nerfed, now stat set gets nerfed) = bad

So where is my : getti g hit by a proc set gives you 30k dmg shield. set or better skill to counter this....?

Instead of new proc sets for new fun and unique gameplay, why not add new fun unique weapon skill lines? Or additional guild skills.

And I'm not a. Elitist pvp nerd who only min/max.

universal_wrath

Gilvoth wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.

Ralamil

If there's a silent majority in favor of proc sets, then how do you know about it? You just said they're silent.

What seems more likely is that the majority of folks with whom you personally interact are in favor of them, which does not make them a "silent majority." It makes them anecdotal evidence that you're using to back your own opinion.

I don't have a problem with your opinion (I don't really care one way or the other about proc sets... I think they generally have their place but ZOS could do a better job handling them in a lot of cases). But unless you can come up with something that proves the existence of this "silent majority," you shouldn't use it as a backing for your own argument.

NordSwordnBoard

If they eventually nerf the proc sets like they did with DoTs, where does that leave the newer players who depended on them?

A couple friends of mine came over from another game. I crafted sets for them that boost their stats like Hundings and shackle breaker so they focus on skills and rotations for damage as they learn. I think damage proc set boosts will mostly hurt those that depend on it in the long term. I doubt all sets will be perfectly tuned, and the precedent is a nerf hammer not a scalpel gets used to adjust later on after all the cries.

If these boosts happen, but don't follow the same rise and fall pattern the DoT META did, I'll be very surprised.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

I don’t disagree that procs are effective. I think it’s cool that they are. Like I said, you bring up some valid points and concerns. Ultimately the game should be balanced so that you see all kinds of sets in all kinds of pvp. That’s hard to do though, and for most of ESO’s history stat builds have dominated high end pvp