Girl_Number8 wrote: »Proc sets on the PTS right now are overtuned with how combat team currently has things set up. The devs know this and should listen to the majority of feedback, that does not want to see this go live.
For a good reason, it is highly unbalanced. It will also take away any skilled combat that is enjoyed in ESO PvP.
I think the OP is misunderstanding that the casual players will suffer the most from this. It is also not about proc sets but how they are functioning on the PTS, to be more correct.
Sets such as NMA were a very good step the right direction. Going towards a somewhat balanced PvPing experience. More sets like this would of been a great thing to add in.
Proc sets as they are right now on live, really are not that much of an issue. Of course they are fun and serve their purpose but Proc Sets should not be a dominant factor in PvP combat. Past patches have shown us this.
If the PTS goes live as it presently is it will be another failure like the dot meta. The causal players will complain and ask for nerfs and ESO PvP will be in a worse mess. This will take away any progress made.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »Proc sets on the PTS right now are overtuned with how combat team currently has things set up. The devs know this and should listen to the majority of feedback, that does not want to see this go live.
For a good reason, it is highly unbalanced. It will also take away any skilled combat that is enjoyed in ESO PvP.
I think the OP is misunderstanding that the casual players will suffer the most from this. It is also not about proc sets but how they are functioning on the PTS, to be more correct.
Sets such as NMA were a very good step the right direction. Going towards a somewhat balanced PvPing experience. More sets like this would of been a great thing to add in.
Proc sets as they are right now on live, really are not that much of an issue. Of course they are fun and serve their purpose but Proc Sets should not be a dominant factor in PvP combat. Past patches have shown us this.
If the PTS goes live as it presently is it will be another failure like the dot meta. The causal players will complain and ask for nerfs and ESO PvP will be in a worse mess. This will take away any progress made.
Why shouldn't proc sets be dominant? Or best in slot? Why can't the best pvp set be a proc set? Because it's free damage?
This game isnt a skill measuring contest. Its about fun. Stat builds have dominated the highest tiers of PVP for the majority of this game's life outside of a few windows. Proc sets are a welcome change.
In my opinion, the best PVP this game offers isnt CP or dueling, its BG's. Why? Simply because they are the most fun (for me). And procs are already very good in NOCP bg's.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.
Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.
Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health
I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.
When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.
Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.
Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health
I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.
When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.
Disagreeing with me doesn't make it false. Did you read how a proc set could be helpful? Where you around when Procs like these where a thing? How many people say the exact opposite of you about BGs? One set is fine like I said 3 on the other hand isn't.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.
Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health
I disagree with most of this here. There are already a few really good proc sets in the game such as Caluurion, Viper, Sunderflame, etc. Ill use venemous smite as an example since its new. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.
When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »1. Proc sets will never help casuals, ever. This is because skilled players will farm them faster and then not only have free pressure from proc set but also survival/damage skills to also overcompensate.
2. Proc sets reduce class identity and will cause nerfs to classes that excel in the proc meta. Remember the DOT meta and the over nerf to the DKs dots just because? Though they were melee and class specific those skills got hit harder than the ranged entropy dot did. So in the next meta classes that can build tank like in the example video in this thread will be subject to nerf instead of the proc sets them selves.
3. Proc set meta will nerf your fun sets because it is way over the top. If say a player could only run a monster set and one proc set then it could be argued that it would help casuals. Why? The floor who don't exactly do alot of damage could wear this set and up their damage and a sweaty player can see that they do more damage with out it and run power based sets.
Stacking free damage is only really useful to the people who can't do active damage. This helps the tank meta not hurt it. DPS will be steamrolled by groups of LAs and ELE drains from TOONs with 50k health
I disagree with most of this here. There is already a really good proc set in the game, venemous smite. You see it a lot in BG's and in NOCP. Yet BG's still have tons of build diversity and other proc sets are being brought up to venemous smites level to further increase build diversity. You still see a ton of stat builds in NOCP BG's as well.
When everyone is running stat sets and measuring the length of their "skill" the game loses a lot of its creativity, fun factor, and build diversity.
Disagreeing with me doesn't make it false. Did you read how a proc set could be helpful? Where you around when Procs like these where a thing? How many people say the exact opposite of you about BGs? One set is fine like I said 3 on the other hand isn't.
I've had this game since beta. Played it consistently with multiple breaks of 6-9months every so often. I've used all kinds of builds: stats, procs, and everything in between. Eventually, the game always becomes stale. Shifting the meta is what makes it new and exciting again, and has to be done a few times a year. Otherwise, its the same thing over and over. In my opinion, next patch looks really fun.
Playboy_Shrek wrote: »agreed. proc sets are fun, but this forum is generally full of elite players that want stat sets that buff your micromechanics to be way better than proc sets. right or wrong thats how it is
atm most proc sets are just not very good. some of the buffs on the pts are actual nerfs. like reducing damage significantly to increase proc rate. which isnt always good. like for example the change to red mountain. thats a straight up nerf.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.
The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue because it tells those lesser experienced players (weaker as you put it) they do not have to learn how to play as they can rely on proc sets playing the game for them. Nothing in the statement replying to my previous statement argues against that.
Cheers
Proc sets have the potential to be overpowered: but they have been underpowered for most of this games history ever since they nerfed viper/tremorscale etc...
You are also assuming that skill is something that comes to anybody who takes time to learn: that's just not true. Some players are just extremely good, and some are terrible no matter how much they try.
TheActuary130 wrote: »Imagine comparing proc sets to welfare, then suggesting they should be best in slot.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »In response to nublife a few posts above:
-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.
-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.
-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Most new sets in this game are proc sets, and for a good reason: they give the devs a lot of creative ability and are a lot of fun for the majority of players. You get cool new animations and game mechanics and if the set was designed properly, it usually has fair counterplay and good balance.
Unfortunately there is a very vocal minority of elitists and purists who always post in these forums against proc sets. These players are almost always high level PVP'rs (often duelers) with very big egos who think that their personal assessment of "skill" matters more than "fun" for the majority of players. These elitists are usually heavily invested in stat based builds and run things like balorghs, new moon, fury, clever alch, dragonguard, bloodspawn: and are extremely biased towards their investment and the way they have been playing this game for years. Their primary argument is that proc sets remove skill from the game because they fight for you, whereas with stat sets and stat based procs -> you still have to do the fighting. Let me explain why that is a false premise
1. When you use a damage proc set you give up the buffed stats you would have gotten with a stat based 5 piece set. This means that your entire character is less effective and unless the proc set is good enough of an alternative to this "opportunity cost" -> nobody will use it over the stat sets
2. No proc set is good enough where you don't have to "play" , because these sets go through balance testing. Whether you are using procs, or stat sets -> you still have to play the game. Proc sets do help newer/worse players contribute more, so they raise the skill floor -> but they don't lower the skill ceiling much at all because high end players understand counterplay and always adapt to new metas.
3. Devs have data: They can see that most of the high end PVPrs are using stat sets... They know that stat based builds have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made. The only place where procs might be outperforming stats now is in NOCP, and that is refreshing because it creates alternative gameplay. Data > Biased rants on forums; and that is likely the reason why they recently improved all proc sets.
This game is about fun, not about some elitist measurement of skill. Proc sets give the devs so much more creative potential than most simple stat buff sets, and are fun for the majority of the player base. They raise the skill floor just enough to help weaker players contribute and enjoy the game more (without lowering the skill ceiling much), and they also help shift metas around which keeps this game new and exciting.
Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »In response to nublife a few posts above:
-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.
-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.
-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.
I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.
Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.