Proc Sets Are Fun: The Silent Majority

idk

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sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

I don’t disagree that procs are effective. I think it’s cool that they are. Like I said, you bring up some valid points and concerns. Ultimately the game should be balanced so that you see all kinds of sets in all kinds of pvp. That’s hard to do though, and for most of ESO’s history stat builds have dominated high end pvp

I think the argument being posed in this thread is that proc sets should be substandard to what can be done with actual player skill. It is a fair argument at a time when proc sets are being buffed.

Stx

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

Gilvoth

universal_wrath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.

if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I don’t disagree that procs are effective. I think it’s cool that they are. Like I said, you bring up some valid points and concerns. Ultimately the game should be balanced so that you see all kinds of sets in all kinds of pvp. That’s hard to do though, and for most of ESO’s history stat builds have dominated high end pvp

I don't like proc dmg sets personally, but I don't want them removed from the game either. The more variety of builds there are in pvp the better. I don't think any spec should be able to kill people with a dot and light attacks. Just like the last proc meta and scalebreaker, it's just too easy to obtain free damage.

Not that skilled gameplay can't exist in those metas, it's just that they're not as interesting when everyone is running the same gear. Greymoor from a balance perspective was heading in the right direction. You have stat based builds as well as proc builds even in open world cp pvp(grothdar overwhelming dks, overwhelming magplars, venomous smite anything).

Some of the specs are a little overtuned and are getting adjusted, but this wave of proc sets is going to unbalance what was already a pretty decent patch in CP pvp. No-CP obv needs help though, haha.

universal_wrath

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

If they eventually nerf the proc sets like they did with DoTs, where does that leave the newer players who depended on them?

A couple friends of mine came over from another game. I crafted sets for them that boost their stats like Hundings and shackle breaker so they focus on skills and rotations for damage as they learn. I think damage proc set boosts will mostly hurt those that depend on it in the long term. I doubt all sets will be perfectly tuned, and the precedent is a nerf hammer not a scalpel gets used to adjust later on after all the cries.

If these boosts happen, but don't follow the same rise and fall pattern the DoT META did, I'll be very surprised.

Good, they should learn to play without free damage. Proc sets will only make new players who don't understand mechanics, worse and not improve them at all. As for zos handing balance, that is another issue and it is not specific to this topic only. Everyone fears the nerf hammer.

Fur_like_snow

A player running around a rock fighting multiple players at least showed up to the fight he wasn’t afraid to die. I respect the 1vXer for pushing his limits but the lowly Xv1er can only hope for more free damage sets and cheap KBs.

To be clear I don’t have anything against proc sets with a percent based chance to proc but in light of PTS with ZoS removing most conditions and replacing them with easy to meet conditions like LA/gap closer isn’t good game design. If I can easily proc a set with a gap closer than the tool tip needs to be much less. The more difficult the proc condition the higher the tool tip should be.

Zukasha

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

Not true, proc builds are and always have been very strong for dueling. Some even tend to get banned from dueling competitions because they are that op - something that to my knowledge never happens with stat based offensive sets. So the main reason why many duelers use stat based sets is that they enjoy them more, are more likely to find willing opponents - since not everyone enjoys fighting proc cheese and they don't have to worry about getting their build banned in competitions.

JimmyJuJu

I'm definitely liking the changes to the group-oriented sets. Sets like Hiti's and upcoming changes to Worm's and Hircine's are great. I'm hoping that removing many of the proc conditions will help solve some of the lag issues so that we can have big battles in Cyro again.

Somewhere

Stx wrote: »

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

There's many reasons why people call them "free".

1) Their proc chances are now proc conditions, many of which rely on a simple condition of "deal damage". This can be met with a light attack, requiring no resources to get the damage.

2) They proc off the GCD system, instead relying on a cooldown. As a result, I can have 1 or more procs firing at the same time as a skill being used. This is equivalent to casting 2 or even more skills at the same time.

3) They don't require that you invest certain stats into your character. Someone with 15,000 magicka is going to do the same damage with Caluurion's Legacy as someone with 40,000.

In PvE, these things don't matter quite as much because of the sheer number of damage dealing skills a DD might run. On my magDK I run 8 damage dealing skills (counting trap beast), not including an ultimate. Dropping a 5-pc set that increases the damage for all 8 of those just for what is equivalent to 1 more skill is not worth it.

In PvP, my exact same character I run 3, maybe 4 damage dealing skills not including my ultimate. The rest are heals, buffs, and debuffs. Buffing the damage of those few skills is not nearly as impactful as just adding an additional skill via a proc. Especially considering the above.

FrankonPC

Gilvoth wrote: »

if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.

I didn't say any of this. I know this is the internet and people want to generalize all players into a group, but it's not that simple.

The point with the video is that I can kill people with procs with a DOT and light attacks. No trees were kited in the making of this video. Not once did I say that proc sets shouldn't exist either, I said that they're much stronger than the non-proc counterparts in CP, and it's even worse in No-cp

universal_wrath

Gilvoth wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.

if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.

What if that "loosing opponent" was just waiting for an opening. Most 1xV player do thr same thing. Facing multiple players in open fields put them at great disadvantage, so they keep line of sight and wait for opening, if some dropped their gaurd because that loser is runing away, they will be very surprised will the loser comes backs and kill them. They player in the video clearly states that he will only do 2 things, keep elemntal drain up and do light attacks and he does to much pressure that put his opponent on defense few times. Now imagine if he started to add other skills like sub assault....etc. they might not do 5-6k damage because hit raw offensive stats are low, but he will he somewhere around 3-4k with the addtion to 3-4k damage from proc sets. Ultimately, he will do more damage than his opponent and as he said in the video, there are some skills that scale with health and not affect by offensive state like dragon blood.

Mortiis13

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

go to pts, build a dueling build and show us all that it's still better, u can Duell him.
In The vid u c that the dude was constantly in defence cause of the pressure only from proc sets la and a dot. He had only a small window where the sets are on CD to counter No1 and he easily healed the dmg with arctic.

I'm interested if this proc build can hold on in a 1 vs x scenario. Or a stat based build against 2/3 proc set builds.

Cerotonin

Gilvoth wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.

if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.

This is interesting. Comparing a boxing 1v1 in IRL to Cyrodiil Xv1s LMAO.

FrankonPC

Stx wrote: »

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:

1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.

2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.

Pelican

^ I can just slap on Kjal's nightmare, icy conjuror, caluurion's legacy and malacath and allocate all my stats into resist and sustain. Not much point in getting damage if I have 2 procs that each hit harder than an incap/meteor on a damage build and one that is essentially a 10 second dawnbreaker DOT that procs on cooldown. I'm sure new players would have lots of fun fighting a better player using a setup like that and continue to stay in and enjoy pvp.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:

1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.

2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.

I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.

Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.

A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.

I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay

Luckylancer

They can be fun and they should be fun but in a proc meta set they are not even a "I win" button. Why? because you need no button to win!
They should be balanced and not OP.

Joxer61

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The skill ceiling is still high in this game, despite this game being about "fun" and not some elitist measure of "skill" to begin with. This is not a competitive esports game like counterstrike, its a fun MMO. Its already commendable how high the skill ceiling is in a game that's focused on being fun.

lol, yet they have an addon that tells them what to do and when even before it actually happens.....skill, or reading ability?

lucky_Sage

I main a Magdk and I have 5k spell dmg fully buffed which is really high for my class the proc ape dot from greymoor, unleashed terror, grotgarr all deal more dmg than my class dots do put together with just 1 of those sets the problem isn’t proc sets it’s they deal more dmg than any ability even ults.
Those proc does can hit 1400 a tick with malachaths and I’m in heavy

katorga

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:

1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.

2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.

I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.

Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.

A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.

I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay

I agree, I think the sets that provide a status/buff/stat to your character are more valuable than proc sets that put a status on the target. The first cannot be directly countered or removed, and they carry over from target to target.

The real cancer set next patch is not one of the proc sets people are so worried about.

Sanctum74

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I love it when people refer to proc sets as free damage as if they don't take up 5 piece bonuses or dont have proc conditions that pure stat builds use in their normal rotation anyway.

Here's two examples outside of the video that was already posted:

1. venomous smite, unleashed terror and VMA 2h. I hit ONE crit rush, not only do I do damage from the skill, i proc smite, unleashed terror and the vma 2h dots on the same skill. In one GCD I have done slightly lower burst damage at the benefit of also proccing 3 different dot damage sets.

2. Sheer venom back bar with venomous smite and skoria. I hit a poison inject as a stamblade from stealth, I proc sheer venom from PI, and since it's from stealth and it crits, it procs venomous smite. Now with these 3 dots ticking it will proc skoria. All of this damage is available with one casted skill, leaving me to play defensive and let them do their work.

I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.

Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.

A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.

I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay

Stat sets have always had counter play, its called learning game mechanics. Not to mention you have to learn a burst rotation as opposed to letting procs do it for you.

exiledtyrant

I like that proc set are being brought up and standardized across the board. Proc sets losing critical damage was devastating. Having to compete against 5 pieces that increase the damage and healing of every skill by around 8-10% while also scaling its bonuses even higher with critical damage (an average of 25% - 43% increased effectiveness at 50% crit rating with 50%-96% critical damage over sustained combat) was insurmountable.

Should proc sets be modified for PvP so that burst isn't out of control? Probably. Should they be made worse than stat based sets? No. Main reasons include:

-Proc sets are not free. They come with the same 2 piece and 5 piece opportunity cost that all other sets have.

-Proc sets do require skill and build knowledge to use them. If you manage the cooldowns poorly, match the wrong damage types, or don't balance your stats around the other 2-4 pieces bonuses you will not be doing nearly as much damage with proc sets than if you had.

-A lot of procs can be purged and direct damage procs can be tweaked to follow some sort of global cooldown instead of outright neutering them.

Lastly I don't understand the argument against Malacath at all. In PvE non-crit builds could never compete with 25-43% increased damage potential a standard DPS with crit chance could generate. When proc sets went non-crit this became even more apparent. In PvP the introduction of impenetrable had the opposite effect where crit chance was nowhere near as high as PvE and the critical damage became so devalued that flat damage was better.

All I see is a ring that is still subpar for non-crit builds in PvE and A necessity in PvP for both sides of damage dealers proc or stat based. So why is it that proc damage has to suffer? If anything Malacath is just a band-aid on a much larger balancing issue that has been left on the back burner for years. If you want to use a non-crit build in PvE what do you do? If you want to use a critical based build in PvP what do you do? I would agree those questions need answers and more than a Band-Aid pushed behind DLC, but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

FrankonPC

katorga wrote: »

I agree, I think the sets that provide a status/buff/stat to your character are more valuable than proc sets that put a status on the target. The first cannot be directly countered or removed, and they carry over from target to target.

The real cancer set next patch is not one of the proc sets people are so worried about.

There's plenty of ways to build to have sustain, survivability and crazy damage with proc sets. I provided an example in the video posted above. If you want to counter that, feel free to provide proof, comparing state dense sets vs proc sets and the healing/dmg you get vs both.

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I agree that sounds good on paper, but your example ignores opportunity cost. What if you’re running clever alch, new moon, and balorghs. Hit your potion button and drop an ult and we are talking 2000+ weapon damage in an instant after modifiers.

Or how about just fury, dragon guard, bloodspawn where your character has all around better offense, defense, healing, and sustain at all times during normal combat compared to the proc build.

A templar can even wipe off all of those procs with one purifying ritual leaving you with essentially no five piece bonuses.

I agree procs can be good, but don’t ignore how powerful stat sets are in comparison. And stat sets have no counterplay

what's the opportunity cost of casting one purify vs one poison injection or crit rush? Purify is more expensive. if a templar really wants to play the purify vs poison inject game, I'm more than happy to.

What about the classes that don't have a purge?

you don't lose as much as you gain with proc sets on the pts, which is why they're overtuned. Who cares about stat based heals when every class has health based heals or defense. Who cares about 2k weapon dmg when i have a 20k tooltip proc every 10 seconds combined with a 35k tooltip proc every 10 seconds that cost zero resources. All of the resources I expend dealing damage on a stat based build I can use solely for defense on a proc based build because procs are currently that powerful.

As I stated in my video. I lose zero damage off the procs going full health...so instead of running 25-30k health in pvp to have decent healing with stat based sets...i can run 40k+ health on just about every class in the game and have solid healing on most specs due to how health based heals function.

FrankonPC

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

SshadowSscale

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

At the end he challanges anyone to invite him to a duel on the pts during the live stream.... If it is fake narrative go prove it first

exiledtyrant

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

Fawn4287

LMAO, let me put 3 proc damage sets on and light attack my way to godslayer, sweaty PvE players would boycott the game if they let it devolve in to that level of bot friendly gameplay. I love how ZOS is happy to neglect PvP performance until its an unplayable zerg only mess then into a skill free afk damage proc set cess pool. How about fixing performance and butchering the effectiveness of large group play before putting it in to a further unbalanced state of disrepair.

Elwendryll

My favorite proc set is Mechanical Acuity...
I just play around crits, as I play khajiit, so no damage proc sets.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

They know that stat based builds have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made.

I can't help but remember this very old video:
https://youtu.be/UN3IdgssMwo

You can also look at the first 45s https://youtu.be/csVi5fXHdRE

At some point I remember him explaining that he really didn't like proc based builds because they were very toxic for the game, but at some point, it makes no sense to nerf yourself by not using the best tools available because they're too powerful if you're aiming at being one of the best, like he was at the time.

These were different times. Since then they prevented proc sets from critting and changed most of the direct damage to dots. I had to use defensive rune in IC because nightblade gankers could kill you in 1 GCD otherwise. But it's still interesting to look back at it now, for history

Anyway. Maybe proc sets are okay right now. But they were not always healthy, and no, stat based builds were not always overperforming.

ThePedge

Entire basis of your argument is "it's new and refreshing", for you.

Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. No new players wants to go into PvP, get instantly hit by 3 proc sets and die in a second.

Stat-based builds at least require the user to do something, and the new player will see his enemy doing animations and skills.

Die to 3x Dizzy swing you can assess and learn to block, dodge or kite. Die to one light attack and 3x proc sets, what you gonna do about that.