Proc Sets Are Fun: The Silent Majority

Foto1

I agreed

Mayrael

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

@FrankonPC Isthereno1else you have been called out.

I think you may have something to say in that matter

Ok I saw you already replied.

Now. To the topic. I get you OP, you think about it as fun to use against someone. But when you will meet player, after player, after player who will use those things against you and they will kill you, will you still call it fun. Is this the "skillful" gameplay we want? Who ever procs their sets first wins.

I'm not afraid of those proc sets, I have already created 4 builds that will do good in this environment, but I do afraid it will disturb balance badly and the ones who will suffer the most are not the top players, because they can adapt fast, but the casual players. Yes they can now deal ez damage, but can they handle someone's skills AND THEIR EZ DAMAGE?

When DoTs was buffed, I had a lot of fun, somehow casual players couldn't do a sh... against my build while I shredded them just like that. Who had more fun?

This will end badly. We've been there already.

Firstmep

Gilvoth wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.

Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.

If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.

Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.

They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.

It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.

It is the other way around.

there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.

You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.

if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.

Exept in boxing you only have 1 opponent, not an entire rugby teams worth of people trying to smack you down at the same time.
I've been seeing comment like these, like lol, not everyone wants to play stamcro and stamdens and hold block for 90% of every fight and only go on the offensive to ult.
In fact I've never seen another mmo where using LOS is somehow considered bad.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Agree, the only thing im concerned about is when a proc set does so much damage in so little time its practically a pvp 1shot, but beyond that who cares.

FrankonPC

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

StamPlar_1976

I see nothing wrong with proc sets. I'm glad they are finally making them worth a damn. I hope all the changes goes through to live as is.

exiledtyrant

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

StamPlar_1976

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

Pretty much. I didn't see anything overpowering in the vid. If he had slaughtered dude in seconds consecutively, he would have had a point. But all I saw was two people dueling where the advantage kept changing between the two in a drawn out fight. Looks balanced to me. I don't see the problem with a proc build if the fights are still long and drawn out like his demonstration was.

jaws343

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

The time to kill aspect of this kind of misses the point and is the point. An open world PVP build couldn't do enough damage to kill this Proc build over that entire time. And any damage done was pretty much immediately healed. And on the other end of the spectrum, a proc build wore down an open world build with minimal effort. He didn't have to use more than like 2 offensive skills and light attacks during the fight. Even adding in 1 or 2 more offensive skills is going to speed up this fight immensely because the non proc build is already struggling to compete against 2 skills and light attacks.

The problem is, he wasn't even really trying with that proc build. Actually trying that build is just going to delete people. It is insanely over-tuned. Either procs need to be brought down a bit now that they mostly have no proc chance any more, or they need to scale properly, so that when running zero stats they don't do nearly as much damage as they would if you built for damage.

technohic

@FrankonPC When is your stream on PTS? I want to see if there are any takers

Langeston

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

Huh? One of participants was only light attacking — and he still won. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if he'd have actually used some his abilities every now and then, there would have been a sharp reduction in TTK.

Am I misunderstanding the point you're trying to make here? Because acting like the duel in that video isn't completely unbalanced is like me pretending that because my rottweiler doesn't maul me when we're playing around, I'd stand a chance in a serious fight with him if he actually tried to kill me.

Solariken

I love them I just don't think I like the idea of proc set tooltips being higher than my actual skills.

fred4

FrankonPC wrote: »

Imagine how annoyed you would be if fury and new moon were so powerful you could die to light attacks and one DOT. now reverse it.

Now that you say it, something close to that has happened to me in the not too distant past with both werewolf light attacks and sorc overload attacks. It's not so far fetched.

Ishtharo

Moving through this thread, I can confidently say OP is not here to have a discussion. He is here to tell all dissenters that anything presented is "fake new".

There is no silent majority. THey only people who prefer proc sets are lesser skilled players so that they can LA people to death.

For example, I have a build ready for next patch that does 10k DPS over 5 seconds in an AoE, and an additional 5k DPS over the following 5 seconds. This is for using a whole 2 skills. This build is also still going to be well statted and be deadly outside the procs with high healing potential. That shouldn't be allowed to happen. I'm an average player at best, and I guarantee this build will overpower players who are much more skilled than I.

SshadowSscale

Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before

fred4

Zukasha wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I'm just going to put this here:

I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.

Not true, proc builds are and always have been very strong for dueling. Some even tend to get banned from dueling competitions because they are that op - something that to my knowledge never happens with stat based offensive sets. So the main reason why many duelers use stat based sets is that they enjoy them more, are more likely to find willing opponents - since not everyone enjoys fighting proc cheese and they don't have to worry about getting their build banned in competitions.

There is a different agenda at work in duelling tournaments. One is to ban sets that might drag fights out forever, such as pre-nerf Troll King. The other is to balance the game for 1v1 encounters. I am not convinced the latter can be achieved. I watched a duelling tournament a few patches back where so many things were banned an entire class didn't turn up (I think it was sorc). A magblade looked impressive in the early rounds, dominating other players, then it ran into a brick wall when it faced the mag DK who won the tournament. I think I know what skill looks like. I think I also know what it looks like when your build just doesn't perform, putting you constantly on the defensive. This is what happened to the magblade in it's last fight.

I frequently think about chess lately. It's a perfectly balanced game, except for one thing: White has the first move. That alone gives White an advantage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess. What hope does ESO have to balance every 1v1 enounter? I don't think it can be done as long as players use different classes and builds - the essence of an MMO. There will always be a rock paper scissors effect. The best you can do is strive for some overall balance where every class and every build has a niche in which it performs, but you may also be countered pretty hard.

Having resigned myself to that fact tends to colour my perspective. I basically trust Else's video, but it is just one encounter. Guess I have to go and watch his stream now...

P.S. This is not to say I believe excesses shouldn't be reined in. From my perspective as a Caluurion NB main in CP that set has felt pretty balanced, which means it - among other well-performing proc sets - could probably do with a nerf in no CP only. I was suprised to see it slightly buffed instead and I don't think you should be able to combine proc sets with Malacath. It was deemed necessary that proc sets shouldn't crit some time after One Tamriel. ZOS want to revise and bring older sets into line with something like Caluurion? Fine. That set was created after One Tamriel, though, and arguably fairly balanced. At least ZOS must have thought so. It remained untouched, since inception. Adding Malacath puts a spanner in the works for that balance, even if I think the class that currently makes best use of it (magblade) is too crit-centric (certainly in CP) to actually use Malacath.

Sorbin

Lol you always know someone's full of *** when they claim to be speaking for the "silent majority".

fred4

x

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before

What was so devastating about Viper is that it procced reliably and suited every stam build. It was also an instant proc and it could be combined with another instant proc, Tremorscale. Things have changed. All proc sets have a one second activation delay and Caluurion has a very slow travel time thereafter. Furthermore the only class that can currently control the set's activation is magblade, by using Shadowy Disguise. I'd go so far as to say Caluurion was a bone thrown to a weak class. At the very least it is less controllable on other classes.

fred4

Sorbin wrote: »

Lol you always know someone's full of *** when they claim to be speaking for the "silent majority".

I actually agree with the sentiments expressed in the original post. +1 for that group of people, silent majority or otherwise. At the same time I believe that build patterns from Else's (FrankonPCs) video look like a problem and the patch needs tweaks, for example to Malacath.

katorga

ThePedge wrote: »

Entire basis of your argument is "it's new and refreshing", for you.

Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. No new players wants to go into PvP, get instantly hit by 3 proc sets and die in a second.

Stat-based builds at least require the user to do something, and the new player will see his enemy doing animations and skills.

Die to 3x Dizzy swing you can assess and learn to block, dodge or kite. Die to one light attack and 3x proc sets, what you gonna do about that.

Healthy for the game means healthy for the majority of casual pve players, which keeps the whole platform funded. Healthy for pvp means healthy for potatoes, because that is the majority of pvp players.

jaws343 wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

exiledtyrant wrote: »

... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.

did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.

What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.

I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.

All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.

It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

The time to kill aspect of this kind of misses the point and is the point. An open world PVP build couldn't do enough damage to kill this Proc build over that entire time. And any damage done was pretty much immediately healed. And on the other end of the spectrum, a proc build wore down an open world build with minimal effort. He didn't have to use more than like 2 offensive skills and light attacks during the fight. Even adding in 1 or 2 more offensive skills is going to speed up this fight immensely because the non proc build is already struggling to compete against 2 skills and light attacks.

The problem is, he wasn't even really trying with that proc build. Actually trying that build is just going to delete people. It is insanely over-tuned. Either procs need to be brought down a bit now that they mostly have no proc chance any more, or they need to scale properly, so that when running zero stats they don't do nearly as much damage as they would if you built for damage.

You talk about openworld like its dueling. It always seems to me like I have a cloud of people attacking me. From that perspective, his point about procs freeing up time to do survival things is attractive. From my point of view of as an outnumbered, overwhelmed, not-so-great pvp'er it sounds wonderful. But I think its a false promise. Maybe if I had three sets equal to Calurrions, but not with dot sets, and once i blow my 10s cooldown on one target, I'm toast. Note, you could do his build caluurion+Icy+LA, on live, right now. How many are?

Proc sets are great for noCP, because I think players gimp themselves and lose more defensively than a proc set player loses offensively, especially with malacath in the mix. Malacath allows a player to keep a chunk of their offensive cp ability, and the one bit of defense cp a player keeps with base crit resist added, doesn't even apply to a proc set user.

Proc sets are a blast for the 80% of the game population doing casual pve. That's why they are not going away.

fred4

Somewhere wrote: »

3) They don't require that you invest certain stats into your character. Someone with 15,000 magicka is going to do the same damage with Caluurion's Legacy as someone with 40,000.

I actually find it frustrating how effective building for stats is, compared to the proc build that I run on my magblade. You want to be an effective open world stam DK? Better build for maximum weapon damage, so you get maximum heals and leaps. You want to be an effective magicka anything? Building for maximum magicka not only gives you damage, it gives you decent shields. You approach 50K magicka or more, it markedly improves your effectiveness as a warden or sorc ... or a stand-up magblade, if you choose to go that way.

You steer away from those build patterns, your stats tend to plummet, because the only way to get them really high is by availing of percentage buffs. Major and Minor Sorcery or Brutality. Inner Light, Northern Storm, a Siphoning skill. You don't build for high weapon damage on a stam DK, you don't just lose the 600 weapon damage from Fury, you loose 600 + 30% from Major and Minor Brutality + another 10% from Continuous Attack + I've probably forgotten something.

It really grates on me when people call proc sets free damage. They act outside of the GCD, fine, they do. I'm not saying they shouldn't be carefully balanced, which may include restictions on Malacath and how many procs you can combine. They already have impediments placed on them, though, such as activation times and the sheer fact that you're giving up stats plus their associated multipliers. Caluurion, in particular, doesn't have 3x magicka bonuses, which would enhance my survivability outside of cloak and better lend it to be used with Malacath (next patch), it has 2x crit and 1x spell damage instead.

In many ways, the stat-based build with low mobility and lowish single-stat sustain, supplemented by heavy attacks, rules in CP. This curtails build variety. I am overgeneralising, I know. I'm thinking of stamcro, stamden and stam DK right now. It results in a particular playstyle. One that doesn't have the speed to go after every target, nor the sustain to do so all the time. These are limitations, but at the same time when you think of the tanky 1vXer that isn't a magsorc, this is probably what you're thinking of. These builds have been highly effective.

What if you want something different? What if you want better outright sustain, which might keep you in the fight longer before you have to LoS or Meditate or something? What if you want to perma-cloak? What if you want high speed? What if you want opposite stat sustain, for example so you can run Fossilize or wings (of old - maybe not now) on a stam DK? Sets like Shacklebreaker, Amber Plasm, and so on, are a compromise. I have not tried Eternal Vigor, but it looks the same to me. Even though these are stat-efficient sets, you still feel the loss of damage.

The reason I play a Caluurion build is precisely because it's not affected by stats. This allows for a build with greater utility, yet one that still has decent burst. Wearing a proc set does not automatically mean you want to build for maximum cheese. I like very high speed and very high sustain. This, combined with cloak, transforms the game in various ways I don't want to go into. It's primarily about quality of life and playing a fun build, rather than a competitive one.

I am an avid proc build player. Whatever solution comes out of this - and I do hope ZOS are listening - I hope it will not be a blanket nerf that puts proc builds to rest. I think Else has shown an extreme build that looks problematic. I hope ZOS implement a smart solution to merely curtail such excesses, such as disallowing 3 procs (or even more than 1 proc), balancing no CP indepently via differences in Battle Spirit and/or disallowing Malacath to buff procs.

sabresandiego_ESO

Dueling is pointless because it doesn't prove anything besides testing people's builds and egos. Dueling specific builds are especially toxic to duel against since those builds usually suck in all other forms of pvp. I do consider your 3 proc build from the video a "proc dueling build". It's of my opinion that proc builds should be competitive in duels and all forms of pvp, and that stat builds shouldn't be clearly superior. I should be able to choose a variety of sets and enjoy the game, while still being competitive.

I don't mind coming to duel you just for fun, I can bring my stam necro who I run a battlegrounds build with; which I will slightly modify to be stat based (because I use procs most of the time in BGs since they are both fun and effective). My setup is not dueling focused at all, its mainly a bow build and I wont even have a CC/stun; but I really don't think you'll steamroll me with just light attacks and procs.

If I win by some miracle, then you should concede that just because proc builds are finally "competitive" -> it doesnt mean that stat builds are worthless. And that the "proc hysteria" is in fact a fake narrative and fake news.

And btw, I don't deny that we might have some kind of proc meta in certain forms of PVP. We already have that in NOCP BG's, but you still see plenty of stat builds in there and a lot of diversity. And most of all -> procs are fun and open up build diversity, new game mechanics, and more.

FrankonPC

exiledtyrant wrote: »

If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.

Have you ever seen a "duel build" run 40k health? Have you ever seen a "duel build" not use ultimates? How about skills and abilities outside of a debuff and a DOT? You don't see the issue with one of the best survival classes in the game struggling vs light attacks? I don't know what type of dueling you watch, but lol.

Open world builds are also build around single target damage and high survival. It's pretty easy to see how this crosses over to open world when my sustain isn't touched and I'm not using any other offensive skills or abilities.

You keep saying that it "took a while to kill each other". I was using light attacks. Do you think you should be able to kill people with light attacks and one DOT?

FrankonPC

StamPlar_1976 wrote: »

Pretty much. I didn't see anything overpowering in the vid. If he had slaughtered dude in seconds consecutively, he would have had a point. But all I saw was two people dueling where the advantage kept changing between the two in a drawn out fight. Looks balanced to me. I don't see the problem with a proc build if the fights are still long and drawn out like his demonstration was.

Are we even watching the same video at this point? I'm a magden. I didn't use fissure or force pulse or an ultimate. How many duels have you seen somebody win where they don't use a burst ability, a spammable and an ultimate? I killed him with a dot and light attacks.

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dueling is pointless because it doesn't prove anything besides testing people's builds and egos. Dueling specific builds are especially toxic to duel against since those builds usually suck in all other forms of pvp. I do consider your 3 proc build from the video a "proc dueling build". It's of my opinion that proc builds should be competitive in duels and all forms of pvp, and that stat builds shouldn't be clearly superior. I should be able to choose a variety of sets and enjoy the game, while still being competitive.

Me offering to fight people on a proc magden isn't about ego. I'm not a good magicka warden. I'm also not using skills or abilities outside of a debuff, light attacks and one dot.

My point is that I am offering to run this setup vs any spec in the game to show that I can provide a large amount of pressure without doing anything else. I should not be able to compete with meta open world builds, battleground builds or dueling builds by just light attacking, but I think I'll be able to.

I think people can and will beat me, or we will draw...but the point is I don't think I should provide the pressure I provide with the effort I take to do it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it's just trying to show how strong procs are.

We can also go into open world on the pts. Bring a few people and let's get some open world tests going.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Dueling is pointless because it doesn't prove anything besides testing people's builds and egos. Dueling specific builds are especially toxic to duel against since those builds usually suck in all other forms of pvp. I do consider your 3 proc build from the video a "proc dueling build". It's of my opinion that proc builds should be competitive in duels and all forms of pvp, and that stat builds shouldn't be clearly superior. I should be able to choose a variety of sets and enjoy the game, while still being competitive.

Me offering to fight people on a proc magden isn't about ego. I'm not a good magicka warden. I'm also not using skills or abilities outside of a debuff, light attacks and one dot.

My point is that I am offering to run this setup vs any spec in the game to show that I can provide a large amount of pressure without doing anything else. I should not be able to compete with meta open world builds, battleground builds or dueling builds by just light attacking, but I think I'll be able to.

I think people can and will beat me, or we will draw...but the point is I don't think I should provide the pressure I provide with the effort I take to do it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it's just trying to show how strong procs are.

We can also go into open world on the pts. Bring a few people and let's get some open world tests going.

Fair enough. I will wear one of the newer stat based sets in the duels, eternal vigor, and we can see if your proc based setup absolutely destroys me or not, and then make some kind of conclusion from the data.

I'm going to run a lowish health eternal vigor stat build against your claim of an overpowering high health multi-proc build, so essentially the opposite of you.

JayKwellen

technohic wrote: »

@FrankonPC When is your stream on PTS? I want to see if there are any takers

@technohic His twitch stream is Isth3reno1else. Unfortunately you'll probably be disappointed, as I can pretty much guarantee none of the procopalypse defenders will show up.

sabresandiego_ESO

JayKwellen wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

@FrankonPC When is your stream on PTS? I want to see if there are any takers

@technohic His twitch stream is Isth3reno1else. Unfortunately you'll probably be disappointed, as I can pretty much guarantee none of the procopalypse defenders will show up.

I already said I will. I called the proc meta alarmism and hysteria fake news because I truly think it is. I think we are gonna have a semi-proc meta, one where proc sets finally start being used instead of junked since most everyone is in stat builds like new moon or necropotence. I think making proc builds viable and competitive is good for the game as long as they aren’t overpowered: and I don’t believe they are.

The one place where proc sets really shine and are sometimes better than stat sets is in NOCP battlegrounds. And you still see plenty of stat builds there and build diversity.

Joy_Division

Proc sets would be fine and fun if they did not overshadow class based mechanics and abilities.

They do now. By a lot. Because ZOS has buffed proc sets by almost double from what they were a couple years ago.

August 2017: Flame Blossom – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to summon a line of flame that moves forward, dealing 8,000 Flame Damage to any enemy in its path. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.” 8K every 10 seconds from a telegraphed avoidable line.

October 2017: Unfathomable Darkness – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 4000 Physical Damage. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.” 4K every 3 seconds.

February 2020: Venomous Smite – “Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter’s Venom on your enemy for 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second.” Unavoidable and more than 2K per second.

July 2020: Unleashed Terror - This on PTS was nerfed and still will tick for over 2k second … in an AoE bleed.

Meanwhile in the same period of time, they have nerfed our abilities, added cast-times to ultimates, and standardized abilities making a bunch of them more expensive (for instance, searing strike).

Also, when people combine proc sets, it violates the very balance guidelines ZOS has publicly stated such as the need to add cast times to hard hitting ultimate and the undesirability of having multiple incoming high damage ticks at the same time.


https://imgur.com/a/ZoID2vi



All of this is from a single magnum shot attack. Those DoTs, 1261 from Virulent shot and 956 from hunter’s venom, are both higher than Sload's Semblance single 853 that ZOS admitted was a problem. By way of comparison, the player's actual ability Growning Swarm ticked for 571. The balance is too far off.

And then there is this:

https://imgur.com/a/53tHGds


That's more damage from any ultimate I can cast that had a cast-time put in because "they're too powerful."

As I said, I'm not against proc sets. In fact, I argued many times not to nerf things like Valkyn skoria when people were screaming. The problem is right now they are too strong and too easy to combine and hit players with multiple sources of damage. This has come about because

1. ZOS has to make proc sets stronger every patch otherwise nobody would bother farming/using them (which I'm also fine with, I dont want to buy just story driven DLC)
2. ZOS has also been insistent with nerfing anything players can do: damage, sustain, healing, every patch.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen.

You want powerful porc sets to be an option? Cool, so do I. But if options are desirable, than class based abilities should also be an option and right now they pale in comparison. I wouldn't care about the proc sets if these PTS weren't full of more nerfs. I’ll have to connect with 4 consecutive jabs to get a burning light proc? Backlash requiring more damage? Ritual of retribution, unable to cleanse azurablight as it is, will now heal for less and have the damage ramp up? Cast-time on Radial Sweep? The gap between the power in gear sets and what player abilities can do is widening even further

Edit: I either seem to forget how to post imgur posts or they changed something...they used to be png extensions. I don;t know, click on the link if you want to see them.

Other posters seem to be using a site with this [v-cdn.net], is this more convenient? Not sure what it is.

SshadowSscale

fred4 wrote: »

x

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before

What was so devastating about Viper is that it procced reliably and suited every stam build. It was also an instant proc and it could be combined with another instant proc, Tremorscale. Things have changed. All proc sets have a one second activation delay and Caluurion has a very slow travel time thereafter. Furthermore the only class that can currently control the set's activation is magblade, by using Shadowy Disguise. I'd go so far as to say Caluurion was a bone thrown to a weak class. At the very least it is less controllable on other classes.

Go read the first patch notes again please.... They changed it so that Caluurion no longer needs a crit to proc but can basickly proc on cooldown... Same as vipers but for magaicka this time.... So no magblades are not the only class that can controll it since it does not need a crit anymore..... Just wait until the sorc you ate fighting hits ya with a caluurions proc every 10 seconds now