Proc Sets Are Fun: The Silent Majority

mairwen85

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

Did anyone pick up the gauntlet?

sabresandiego_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Proc sets would be fine and fun if they did not overshadow class based mechanics and abilities.

They do now. By a lot. Because ZOS has buffed proc sets by almost double from what they were a couple years ago.

August 2017: Flame Blossom – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to summon a line of flame that moves forward, dealing 8,000 Flame Damage to any enemy in its path. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.” 8K every 10 seconds from a telegraphed avoidable line.

October 2017: Unfathomable Darkness – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 4000 Physical Damage. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.” 4K every 3 seconds.

February 2020: Venomous Smite – “Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter’s Venom on your enemy for 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second.” Unavoidable and more than 2K per second.

July 2020: Unleashed Terror - This on PTS was nerfed and still will tick for over 2k second … in an AoE bleed.

Meanwhile in the same period of time, they have nerfed our abilities, added cast-times to ultimates, and standardized abilities making a bunch of them more expensive (for instance, searing strike).

Also, when people combine proc sets, it violates the very balance guidelines ZOS has publicly stated such as the need to add cast times to hard hitting ultimate and the undesirability of having multiple incoming high damage ticks at the same time.


https://imgur.com/a/ZoID2vi



All of this is from a single magnum shot attack. Those DoTs, 1261 from Virulent shot and 956 from hunter’s venom, are both higher than Sload's Semblance single 853 that ZOS admitted was a problem. By way of comparison, the player's actual ability Growning Swarm ticked for 571. The balance is too far off.

And then there is this:

https://imgur.com/a/53tHGds


That's more damage from any ultimate I can cast that had a cast-time put in because "they're too powerful."

As I said, I'm not against proc sets. In fact, I argued many times not to nerf things like Valkyn skoria when people were screaming. The problem is right now they are too strong and too easy to combine and hit players with multiple sources of damage. This has come about because

1. ZOS has to make proc sets stronger every patch otherwise nobody would bother farming/using them (which I'm also fine with, I dont want to buy just story driven DLC)
2. ZOS has also been insistent with nerfing anything players can do: damage, sustain, healing, every patch.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen.

You want powerful porc sets to be an option? Cool, so do I. But if options are desirable, than class based abilities should also be an option and right now they pale in comparison. I wouldn't care about the proc sets if these PTS weren't full of more nerfs. I’ll have to connect with 4 consecutive jabs to get a burning light proc? Backlash requiring more damage? Ritual of retribution, unable to cleanse azurablight as it is, will now heal for less and have the damage ramp up? Cast-time on Radial Sweep? The gap between the power in gear sets and what player abilities can do is widening even further

Edit: I either seem to forget how to post imgur posts or they changed something...they used to be png extensions. I don;t know, click on the link if you want to see them.

Other posters seem to be using a site with this [v-cdn.net], is this more convenient? Not sure what it is.

You don't balance 5pc proc sets against abilities. You balance them against other 5pc sets. The reason for this is called opportunity cost: When you wear a 5pc proc set youre giving up an alternative 5pc set bonus such as necropotence or new moon or amberplasm or eternal vigor or hundings/julianos, etc... If the proc was only as strong as a single ability: nobody would even use these proc sets because stat sets would be clearly superior in all situations.

Proc sets have to be strong enough where people really have a hard time deciding whether they want to use some cool/fun new proc, or get stat buffs from traditional stat sets. It should not be an easy decision one way or another.

Mojomonkeyman

I personally enjoy both, playing with procsets and without. We had a very good state of proc balance up until some patches ago, most procs were strong, but not too strong. The borderline overpowered ones (zaan, icy, sloads, etc.) had decent ramp up time & clear indicators or slow travel time with strong visuals, giving the target player time to react. All being limited to single target as well.

I feel we lost that state of proc balance with azureblight, then malacath and venomous smite & more to come next patch. Those are either non-conditional, lack counterability, have no ramp-up time or enormous aoe potential.

Why can't we just stick with what has proven to be a tolerable and fun environment for the playerbase over the course of years: a few strong, delayed conditional mostly single target proc sets with equally strong indicators to make sure people can counter, and the rest of the proc sets being more reliable/easy to trigger but with less power/dmg budget built in?

sabresandiego_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

Did anyone pick up the gauntlet?

Yes I showed up, and I feel that the testing Frank and I did supported my claims in this thread.

fred4

SshadowSscale wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

x

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before

What was so devastating about Viper is that it procced reliably and suited every stam build. It was also an instant proc and it could be combined with another instant proc, Tremorscale. Things have changed. All proc sets have a one second activation delay and Caluurion has a very slow travel time thereafter. Furthermore the only class that can currently control the set's activation is magblade, by using Shadowy Disguise. I'd go so far as to say Caluurion was a bone thrown to a weak class. At the very least it is less controllable on other classes.

Go read the first patch notes again please.... They changed it so that Caluurion no longer needs a crit to proc but can basickly proc on cooldown... Same as vipers but for magaicka this time.... So no magblades are not the only class that can controll it since it does not need a crit anymore..... Just wait until the sorc you ate fighting hits ya with a caluurions proc every 10 seconds now

I know that. That's why I said "currently" and put it in italics. I'm perfectly happy with Caluurion as it is on live is what I'm trying to say.

mairwen85

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

In response to nublife a few posts above:

-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.

-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.

-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.

I'm streaming on Friday. Bring your stat based dueling build, i'll bring my light attacks.

Edit: I want to be clear with this. I just want to show how overtuned procs currently are on the pts. If you think I'm wrong, this is a perfect time to prove it. No animosity or anything, just a disagreement in where procs currently are.

Did anyone pick up the gauntlet?

Yes I showed up, and I feel that the testing Frank and I did supported my claims in this thread.

So the findings are that procsets, even with the removal of Proc conditions, are evenly balanced vs stat builds? And by extension, ZOS got it right? This scares me...

pieratsos

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Proc sets would be fine and fun if they did not overshadow class based mechanics and abilities.

They do now. By a lot. Because ZOS has buffed proc sets by almost double from what they were a couple years ago.

August 2017: Flame Blossom – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to summon a line of flame that moves forward, dealing 8,000 Flame Damage to any enemy in its path. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.” 8K every 10 seconds from a telegraphed avoidable line.

October 2017: Unfathomable Darkness – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 4000 Physical Damage. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.” 4K every 3 seconds.

February 2020: Venomous Smite – “Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter’s Venom on your enemy for 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second.” Unavoidable and more than 2K per second.

July 2020: Unleashed Terror - This on PTS was nerfed and still will tick for over 2k second … in an AoE bleed.

Meanwhile in the same period of time, they have nerfed our abilities, added cast-times to ultimates, and standardized abilities making a bunch of them more expensive (for instance, searing strike).

Also, when people combine proc sets, it violates the very balance guidelines ZOS has publicly stated such as the need to add cast times to hard hitting ultimate and the undesirability of having multiple incoming high damage ticks at the same time.


https://imgur.com/a/ZoID2vi



All of this is from a single magnum shot attack. Those DoTs, 1261 from Virulent shot and 956 from hunter’s venom, are both higher than Sload's Semblance single 853 that ZOS admitted was a problem. By way of comparison, the player's actual ability Growning Swarm ticked for 571. The balance is too far off.

And then there is this:

https://imgur.com/a/53tHGds


That's more damage from any ultimate I can cast that had a cast-time put in because "they're too powerful."

As I said, I'm not against proc sets. In fact, I argued many times not to nerf things like Valkyn skoria when people were screaming. The problem is right now they are too strong and too easy to combine and hit players with multiple sources of damage. This has come about because

1. ZOS has to make proc sets stronger every patch otherwise nobody would bother farming/using them (which I'm also fine with, I dont want to buy just story driven DLC)
2. ZOS has also been insistent with nerfing anything players can do: damage, sustain, healing, every patch.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen.

You want powerful porc sets to be an option? Cool, so do I. But if options are desirable, than class based abilities should also be an option and right now they pale in comparison. I wouldn't care about the proc sets if these PTS weren't full of more nerfs. I’ll have to connect with 4 consecutive jabs to get a burning light proc? Backlash requiring more damage? Ritual of retribution, unable to cleanse azurablight as it is, will now heal for less and have the damage ramp up? Cast-time on Radial Sweep? The gap between the power in gear sets and what player abilities can do is widening even further

Edit: I either seem to forget how to post imgur posts or they changed something...they used to be png extensions. I don;t know, click on the link if you want to see them.

Other posters seem to be using a site with this [v-cdn.net], is this more convenient? Not sure what it is.

You don't balance 5pc proc sets against abilities. You balance them against other 5pc sets. The reason for this is called opportunity cost: When you wear a 5pc proc set youre giving up an alternative 5pc set bonus such as necropotence or new moon or amberplasm or eternal vigor or hundings/julianos, etc... If the proc was only as strong as a single ability: nobody would even use these proc sets because stat sets would be clearly superior in all situations.

Proc sets have to be strong enough where people really have a hard time deciding whether they want to use some cool/fun new proc, or get stat buffs from traditional stat sets. It should not be an easy decision one way or another.

Since when is hundings rage or julianos add 20k+ tooltip dmg to ur burst?

Joy_Division

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Proc sets would be fine and fun if they did not overshadow class based mechanics and abilities.

They do now. By a lot. Because ZOS has buffed proc sets by almost double from what they were a couple years ago.

August 2017: Flame Blossom – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to summon a line of flame that moves forward, dealing 8,000 Flame Damage to any enemy in its path. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.” 8K every 10 seconds from a telegraphed avoidable line.

October 2017: Unfathomable Darkness – “When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 4000 Physical Damage. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.” 4K every 3 seconds.

February 2020: Venomous Smite – “Dealing Critical Damage inflicts Hunter’s Venom on your enemy for 2241 Poison Damage to your target and nearby enemies every 1 second.” Unavoidable and more than 2K per second.

July 2020: Unleashed Terror - This on PTS was nerfed and still will tick for over 2k second … in an AoE bleed.

Meanwhile in the same period of time, they have nerfed our abilities, added cast-times to ultimates, and standardized abilities making a bunch of them more expensive (for instance, searing strike).

Also, when people combine proc sets, it violates the very balance guidelines ZOS has publicly stated such as the need to add cast times to hard hitting ultimate and the undesirability of having multiple incoming high damage ticks at the same time.


https://imgur.com/a/ZoID2vi



All of this is from a single magnum shot attack. Those DoTs, 1261 from Virulent shot and 956 from hunter’s venom, are both higher than Sload's Semblance single 853 that ZOS admitted was a problem. By way of comparison, the player's actual ability Growning Swarm ticked for 571. The balance is too far off.

And then there is this:

https://imgur.com/a/53tHGds


That's more damage from any ultimate I can cast that had a cast-time put in because "they're too powerful."

As I said, I'm not against proc sets. In fact, I argued many times not to nerf things like Valkyn skoria when people were screaming. The problem is right now they are too strong and too easy to combine and hit players with multiple sources of damage. This has come about because

1. ZOS has to make proc sets stronger every patch otherwise nobody would bother farming/using them (which I'm also fine with, I dont want to buy just story driven DLC)
2. ZOS has also been insistent with nerfing anything players can do: damage, sustain, healing, every patch.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen.

You want powerful porc sets to be an option? Cool, so do I. But if options are desirable, than class based abilities should also be an option and right now they pale in comparison. I wouldn't care about the proc sets if these PTS weren't full of more nerfs. I’ll have to connect with 4 consecutive jabs to get a burning light proc? Backlash requiring more damage? Ritual of retribution, unable to cleanse azurablight as it is, will now heal for less and have the damage ramp up? Cast-time on Radial Sweep? The gap between the power in gear sets and what player abilities can do is widening even further

Edit: I either seem to forget how to post imgur posts or they changed something...they used to be png extensions. I don;t know, click on the link if you want to see them.

Other posters seem to be using a site with this [v-cdn.net], is this more convenient? Not sure what it is.

You don't balance 5pc proc sets against abilities. You balance them against other 5pc sets. The reason for this is called opportunity cost: When you wear a 5pc proc set youre giving up an alternative 5pc set bonus such as necropotence or new moon or amberplasm or eternal vigor or hundings/julianos, etc... If the proc was only as strong as a single ability: nobody would even use these proc sets because stat sets would be clearly superior in all situations.

Proc sets have to be strong enough where people really have a hard time deciding whether they want to use some cool/fun new proc, or get stat buffs from traditional stat sets. It should not be an easy decision one way or another.

It's not a hard choice between a equipping a proc set like Azureblight that does ultimate level burst without having to invest anything is weapon/spell damage or resource sustain (opportunity cost works in favor of proc sets too you know) Vs. Acrobat or say Seducer.

fred4

I have watched @FrankonPC's first Twitch video and the first 48 minutes of the second one. Unfortunately that's all I have time for, right now.

@sabresandiego_ESO, thank you so much for showing up and doing these duels!

@FrankonPC, as far as I'm concerned you lost a lot of credibility. Your original video was clearly cherry-picked against an opponent that was weak against your proc build or perhaps someone sympathetic to your view who didn't give it his all. If not that, then a plain weak player. I wouldn't say this, if I thought you were solely interested in play testing. Unfortunately you are a purist and, as such, I feel you're also pushing an agenda.

What I see in your fights with @sabresandiego_ESO are the typical issues a health tank faces when I encounter one in open world. They gradually lose health and then they die. They are vulnerable to sustained pressure and they don't put out enough damage. Your conceit is mirrored in your stream of excuses. It went from "he's clearly running procs as well" (not true, as far as I could tell) to "I'm only trying to show how much pressure these procs are" and so on. I watched his health bar carefully. It rarely dipped below 100% whereas yours dwindled away. You had the temerity to say "He's playing well, both of us have a lot of pressure". Nope. Against this character you did not and he killed you time and again. That was not merely pressure, those were kills. Based on your original video, I expected much better.

I have to commend you for putting in as much work as you do, far more than most people. At the same time, I think your purist views are hampering your objectivity. You speculate on how to combine Deep Fissure with Caluurion. You went so far as to say it would wipe the other person's health bar. Please show it. Please also play such a build for a longer term, so you get a feel for how reliable that is or whether it's just such PITA to wait for and coordinate with the Caluurion proc that you wouldn't actually run it.

Please let me know whether the later footage shows you duel in no CP or a duel where you actually go all out. Saying you're not proficient at warden isn't exactly an excuse either, because much of the argument revolves around what this kind of setup can do in the hands of a new player.

Finally, if it sounds like I am jumping to conclusions myself, I am not. It's just disappointing how misrepresentative your original video is. This is just a single new datapoint. Stamcro is a strong class and it could be your anti-build. I am not mad about the prospect of Malacath with (more) procs, I am concerned about no CP and so on. I am, however, not sold on this being the return of the Viper era.

Aedrion

@sabresandiego_ESO

I'm sorry but your post just shows that your thinking is heavily biased. You mention that proc sets aid 'weaker player's take the fight to 'elitists' and that they diversify the game, raising the skill floor so all can have fun.

And to a very small degree, it's not wrong. Whether or not it's the right choice to raise the skill floor is subjective, you say yes, I say no. I think the game need to offer better ways to teach everybody how to build and play your character. But that's not the issue here.

The issue is just how these procsets work and what they do. Some procsets were decently crafted. They required a focus on a specific type of gameplay or required you do something specific to proc them. Stay in melee and keep hitting your target every 4 second with direct damage, immobilise the target and heavy attack them, load up the target with enough dots or hots to make the proc happen, heal yourself at low health but don't heal yourself enough to go over 50% . And even then, in recent time, the procsets supplemented the damage or healing you were already doing. They didn't carry it.

But what Zo$ has done here is basically turn all those requirements into the most basic elements of gameplay. Do damage, do healing, take damage, use a skill. That means that nobody has to work for it anymore, procs just proc on cooldown, constantly, no thought required, no effort required. Compounding this issue is the fact that procsets now damage for increasingly absurd numbers. We're seeing 20k tooltips - higher than many ultimates - on more than one procset now. Sometimes even AoE. Mealstrom 2-hander has a 13k tooltip with no internal cooldown at all. And Malacath comes in to make them all hit even harder while healing got slashed.

That's not good for any game because gameplay then becomes 'do whatever and you'll win fights'. That cannot be your core gameplay loop. It goes against what games are supposed to be. A least a modicum of challenge. Try fighting two people with this setup, no matter how you try your best, you'll lose. In BG's, whoever procs his sets first and can tank out the other's procs will win. Entire zergs will run procsets and anyone trying to have a decent fight with actual gameplay, will just get hit by a few light attacks or skills and melt.

Already it's become very hard to fight certain classes or groups of 2 players that each proc venomous smite on you after landing a single critical strike. Venomous does ~10k dmg over 10 seconds if you cannot cleanse it. So if you play DK, sorc, or don't have a cleanse skill on the other classes, you'll take 20k dmg over 10 seconds as just proc damage, not counting any other dots, procs or skills used on you. No matter what you do, you'll die. Next patch, a single guy charging you with Malacath, Mealstrom 2-hander, Unleashed Terror and Plague Slinger, will smack you with 15k+20k+25k proc damage over 5 seconds just with that.That's 50k+ damage! If you cannot cleanse it - and plague slinger cannot be cleansed - then you will die in 5 seconds. And to make matters worse. It's AoE. You cannot claim that is helping newbies or raising the floor, it's turning ESO into Call of Duty. If I see you first, you die.

Ultimately, proc sets have a place in the game, they're not going away and they do help players who struggle with skills and classic loadouts contribute, but this is many bridges too far. It's gone to such insane lengths that it now erodes the very core concept of the gameplay in ESO. It's a testament to just how little Zo$ understands about gaming and a crying shame in general because if you think you'll finally be able to beat veteran players, you can rest assured they will outlast you while die you die in a myriad of horrible procsets you don't even recognise on your death recap.

pieratsos

fred4 wrote: »

I have watched @FrankonPC's first Twitch video and the first 48 minutes of the second one. Unfortunately that's all I have time for, right now.

@sabresandiego_ESO, thank you so much for showing up and doing these duels!

@FrankonPC, as far as I'm concerned you lost a lot of credibility. Your original video was clearly cherry-picked against an opponent that was weak against your proc build or perhaps someone sympathetic to your view who didn't give it his all. If not that, then a plain weak player. I wouldn't say this, if I thought you were solely interested in play testing. Unfortunately you are a purist and, as such, I feel you're also pushing an agenda.

What I see in your fights with @sabresandiego_ESO are the typical issues a health tank faces when I encounter one in open world. They gradually lose health and then they die. They are vulnerable to sustained pressure and they don't put out enough damage. Your conceit is mirrored in your stream of excuses. It went from "he's clearly running procs as well" (not true, as far as I could tell) to "I'm only trying to show how much pressure these procs are" and so on. I watched his health bar carefully. It rarely dipped below 100% whereas yours dwindled away. You had the temerity to say "He's playing well, both of us have a lot of pressure". Nope. Against this character you did not and he killed you time and again. That was not merely pressure, those were kills. Based on your original video, I expected much better.

I have to commend you for putting in as much work as you do, far more than most people. At the same time, I think your purist views are hampering your objectivity. You speculate on how to combine Deep Fissure with Caluurion. You went so far as to say it would wipe the other person's health bar. Please show it. Please also play such a build for a longer term, so you get a feel for how reliable that is or whether it's just such PITA to wait for and coordinate with the Caluurion proc that you wouldn't actually run it.

Please let me know whether the later footage shows you duel in no CP or a duel where you actually go all out. Saying you're not proficient at warden isn't exactly an excuse either, because much of the argument revolves around what this kind of setup can do in the hands of a new player.

Finally, if it sounds like I am jumping to conclusions myself, I am not. It's just disappointing how misrepresentative your original video is. This is just a single new datapoint. Stamcro is a strong class and it could be your anti-build. I am not mad about the prospect of Malacath with (more) procs, I am concerned about no CP and so on. I am, however, not sold on this being the return of the Viper era.

Misrepresentative? You know what I call misreprentative? An entire thread full of excuses that the original video proves nothing because it's a "dueling" build and the way to debunk the argument that procs are broken is to duel him with what else, an actual duelling build with the most broken class in the game which is widely considered to be almost unkillable in a 1v1.

Here is the thing, it's not even about killing or putting pressure or anything of the sort. It's about someone throwing 3 procs together on a random class just light attacking which by itself throws the entire premise of build diversity out of the window. That's not even a build.

You can bring someone who never heard of the game of the game before and tell him "spam left click and click this ability every now and then, this ur hp bar, whenever it drops down press this button and you are good to go", and still perform good. And then someone playing since launch coming with a full duelling build on the most broken class in the game to prove what exactly?

This is the entire premise of this thread and the video. The mere fact that 3 procs thrown together on a random class just light attacking is called an actual duelling build or even an actual build for that matter is the problem. The mere fact that people are actually trying to fight someone light attacking to make a point is the problem.

You are talking about credibility but the funny thing is that u lose credibility by even entering the fight to kill someone who is light attacking just to make a point.

Rianai

One year ago ZOS overbuffed DoTs despite overwhelming negative feedback from the PTS. Turns out, the feedback was right and the meta was awful. So the next update ZOS backpedals and (over) nerfs DoTs. And now they add the same (if not more) amounts of dmg back, but with even less efford required and after 20% healing nerf. How anyone could defend such obviously illogical and imbalanced changes is beyond my understanding.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

You don't balance 5pc proc sets against abilities. You balance them against other 5pc sets. The reason for this is called opportunity cost: When you wear a 5pc proc set youre giving up an alternative 5pc set bonus such as necropotence or new moon or amberplasm or eternal vigor or hundings/julianos, etc... If the proc was only as strong as a single ability: nobody would even use these proc sets because stat sets would be clearly superior in all situations.

Proc sets have to be strong enough where people really have a hard time deciding whether they want to use some cool/fun new proc, or get stat buffs from traditional stat sets. It should not be an easy decision one way or another.

You are right, sets have to be compared to other sets. The problem is that you can't just "measure" stat sets without factoring in skills, because those sets don't do anything on their own. They just enhance the abilities someone uses. And the weaker those abilities are, the weaker stats become. If procs alone are stronger than skills, that means those procs can potentially increase the dmg output of someone by 100% and more! Even if you are looking at more than just one skill, procs will still pull ahead by far (20-40% of dmg dealt in actual fights vs ~10% more dmg from stats). There is no way to get as much pressure and/or burst with raw stats than with procs, all while allowing for a lot more passive/defensive gamplay.

fred4

pieratsos wrote: »

Misrepresentative? You know what I call misreprentative? An entire thread full of excuses that the original video proves nothing...

I was not among those people. I genuinely thought Frank was showing a new meta that was able to kill people with just one DOT and light attacks, while experiencing no pressure on their health or magicka pool. I even recall him pointing out how his sustain was not pressured. Such was not the case against @sabresandiego_ESO. His magicka pool was highly pressured, which tends to happen when you have to cast a lot of defensive skills. Things might have been better, if he'd done a proper duel with cheaper attack skills that might have put his opponent on the defensive. Unfortunately Frank had the misconception to think that wouldn't be necessary, which was echoed in his dismissive "That guy is running procs as well" at the beginning of the first video. He was clearly taken aback.

You can say necro is broken. Many people think so. It's just, when you start counting the other broken things, aside from the new and revised proc sets, what exactly are you left with?

fred4

Rianai wrote: »

One year ago ZOS overbuffed DoTs despite overwhelming negative feedback from the PTS. Turns out, the feedback was right and the meta was awful. So the next update ZOS backpedals and (over) nerfs DoTs. And now they add the same (if not more) amounts of dmg back, but with even less efford required and after 20% healing nerf. How anyone could defend such obviously illogical and imbalanced changes is beyond my understanding.

You do it, because everyone makes mistakes, not just ZOS. Community feedback has also resulted in stillborn armor sets and I seem to remember a lot of fuss about an ability - I think it was Onslaught - that turned out just about right or some armor set that was left unchanged throughout the PTS and no one ever used it on live.

I'm in this thread not because I vehemently disagree with what people actually want to do. Like you, I'm more afraid of what ZOS' sledgehammer will do than the mostly reasonable propositions from Frank. The reason I'm here has to do with the OPs assessment that changes are pushed by a vocal minority of elists and purists, which resonates a lot with me. The impression I have is that many would rather see proc sets impounded into the ground or, at the very least, nerfed harder than what I would consider justified. I'm here to voice my opposition to that.

pieratsos

fred4 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Misrepresentative? You know what I call misreprentative? An entire thread full of excuses that the original video proves nothing...

I was not among those people. I genuinely thought Frank was showing a new meta that was able to kill people with just one DOT and light attacks, while experiencing no pressure on their health or magicka pool. I even recall him pointing out how his sustain was not pressured. Such was not the case against @sabresandiego_ESO. His magicka pool was highly pressured, which tends to happen when you have to cast a lot of defensive skills. Things might have been better, if he'd done a proper duel with cheaper attack skills that might have put his opponent on the defensive. Unfortunately Frank had the arrogance to think that wouldn't be necessary, which was echoed in his dismissive "That guy is running procs as well" at the beginning of the first video. He was clearly taken aback.

You can say necro is broken. Many people think so. It's just, when you start counting the other broken things, aside from the new and revised proc sets, what exactly are you left with?

But he is showing that you can kill people by just light attacking. If he wasnt showing that then everyone would laugh at him and not even bother with him. But they did bother. They tried to debunk his video numerous times by calling it a "duelling build fighting an open world build" and someone even attempted to fight him in an actual duelling build on the most broken class in the game with permanent access to major defile which looks like its buffed by a gazillion points into befoul. That by itself proves frank's point. That "the build" is actually effective. Whether someone can kill him or not is irrelevant. Prety much all builds no matter how good they are can be countered in some sort of way. That doesnt make them any less effective.

Let me give you an example. Every now and then u see some random 1vX clip of someone killing horrible players just light attacking and pressing a skill every now and then. Common reaction to those videos are "lol those guys are potatoes, dont even know the basics of the game, you can 1vX them on just about any build in the game cause they are that bad". Well guess what, the video shows someone just light attacking and pressing a skill every now and then. This time the difference is that the reaction is to try debunk the effectiveness of the build with real arguments and try to fight him with actual duelling setups which by itself gives recognition to the build otherwise no one would even bother. If thats not a testament to the broken and unskilled gameplay those sets promote then i dont know what is.

technohic

When I got on the stream later on, it seemed to me just some procs are a bit high. There were a few that hit really hard. Many were avoidable. It was CP and there was 1 setup that nearly 100-0 his target that was tanky enough otherwise. I think I will avoid no CP like I have since the healing nerf. Will see how it plays out. I just know from battlegrounds I've seen; no CP already looks awful.

lucky_Sage

I know the first day of the pts I skimmed the notes didn’t Think to much on the proc sets and I dueled a magden and it had to much pressure and the only ability it used was there frost stun and bees and light attacks I couldn’t get offensive or ever have a chance to put heal it guy was doing about 5K+ dmg a second with light attacks and proc

mairwen85

@FrankonPC, for your next stream, why not switch positions? Have players bring their nastiest Proc builds vs your pure stat build.

fred4

mairwen85 wrote: »

@FrankonPC, for your next stream, why not switch positions? Have players bring their nastiest Proc builds vs your pure stat build.

So he can let himself be beat? No, thank you. That's called a conflict of interest. People have to bring the builds they believe in.

FrankonPC

fred4 wrote: »

I have watched @FrankonPC's first Twitch video and the first 48 minutes of the second one. Unfortunately that's all I have time for, right now.

@sabresandiego_ESO, thank you so much for showing up and doing these duels!

@FrankonPC, as far as I'm concerned you lost a lot of credibility.

As I said on stream, I was also testing things. I put on potion cooldown enchants in our first fights and could not sustain. when I went back to what I dueled mad with, we stalemated before my computer crashed. When we went into No CP(where I haven't played this setup before), I almost 2 shot him with proc sets and light attacks.

I even said in this chat and the stream that I wasn't dueling, just showing how much pressure I can apply with light attacks, and winning or losing didn't matter since he was coordinating skills, dots and debuffs with ultimates, while I was light attacking.

FrankonPC

My point is that I am offering to run this setup vs any spec in the game to show that I can provide a large amount of pressure without doing anything else. I should not be able to compete with meta open world builds, battleground builds or dueling builds by just light attacking, but I think I'll be able to.

I think people can and will beat me, or we will draw...but the point is I don't think I should provide the pressure I provide with the effort I take to do it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it's just trying to show how strong procs are.

I posted this last night. I guess it got missed. If you didn't understand the point I was trying to make that's cool, but to say "i have lost credibility" when I did exactly what I said I was going to do in this thread is ridiculous.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I have watched @FrankonPC's first Twitch video and the first 48 minutes of the second one. Unfortunately that's all I have time for, right now.

@sabresandiego_ESO, thank you so much for showing up and doing these duels!

@FrankonPC, as far as I'm concerned you lost a lot of credibility.

As I said on stream, I was also testing things. I put on potion cooldown enchants in our first fights and could not sustain. when I went back to what I dueled mad with, we stalemated before my computer crashed. When we went into No CP(where I haven't played this setup before), I almost 2 shot him with proc sets and light attacks.

I even said in this chat and the stream that I wasn't dueling, just showing how much pressure I can apply with light attacks, and winning or losing didn't matter since he was coordinating skills, dots and debuffs with ultimates, while I was light attacking.

Frank, you seem like a good guy but I don't think you are being honest here. None of those duels were close, you lost every duel by a wide margin and we probably dueled 6-7 times. In the two duels you claim we stalemated: that's not what happened. What actually happened is that the duels lasted a longer amount of time, and you were going to eventually lose to attrition but you crashed twice instead. High health builds are strong against burst and weaker vs attrition.

You claim you almost two shotted me in the nocp duels: But the real truth is that I was fighting with 14k health in a scenario where procs are supposed to reign supreme (nocp) yet my stat build decisively won both NOCP duels against your triple proc setup: and I do not feel I was close to losing at any point. The nocp duels were over quickly and decisively.

The third fake narrative I want to expose here is your claim that you're only using light attacks to show how OP that build is: but the truth is that your stats (magicka and spellpower and regen) are so low that using abilities would actually hurt you on that build because they would be inefficient and run you out of resources, and you'd have nothing left for defense. Thats the truth, which the masses don't realize because they are easy to fool - I am not.

The fourth fake narrative is that your build requires no skill to play: but that's also fake news. I watched you play and not only were you breathing heavily, you were doing all kinds of actions that a lesser player would not have done. You were not mindlessly light attacking like you portray to the masses. A mindless light attacker would have been dead in 30 seconds. You're a good player and that is clearly evident even on your proc build.

I think you're a good guy, and like I warned about dueling before: peoples egos get in the way of reality. It wasn't my idea to duel, but I certainly believe I proved my claims

FrankonPC

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Frank, you seem like a good guy but I don't think you are being honest here. None of those duels were close, you lost every duel by a wide margin and we probably dueled 6-7 times. In the two duels you claim we stalemated: that's not what happened. What actually happened is that the duels lasted a longer amount of time, and you were going to eventually lose to attrition but you crashed twice instead. High health builds are strong against burst and weaker vs attrition.

We dueled once when I put my old enchants back on, we only stalemated once iirc. You beat me handily when I did not have the recovery I had vs mad on. In one of them you beat me in like 20 seconds!

5:50 -9:10 I was at 70% mag before I crashed, with a pot coming up. you went into colossus twice. I don't have to worry about being honest when it's literally recorded. 3 minutes of dueling vs two ultimates and my resources aren't strained, we can agree that's a draw no? We can do it again if you'd like.

yet my stat build decisively won both NOCP duels against your triple proc setup: and I do not feel I was close to losing at any point. The nocp duels were over quickly and decisively.

How many times do i have to explain I was light attacking? You won decisively against light attacks when I have not run this setup in no cp. Congrats!

The third fake narrative I want to expose here is your claim that you're only using light attacks to show how OP that build is: but the truth is that your stats (magicka and spellpower and regen) are so low that using abilities would actually hurt you on that build because they would be inefficient and run you out of resources, and you'd have nothing left for defense. Thats the truth, which the masses don't realize because they are easy to fool - I am not.

I was not running out of resources when I put my old enchants on, see above.

The fourth fake narrative is that your build requires no skill to play: but that's also fake news. I watched you play and not only were you breathing heavily, you were doing all kinds of actions that a lesser player would not have done. You were not mindlessly light attacking like you portray to the masses. A mindless light attacker would have been dead in 30 seconds.

I think you're a good guy, and like I warned about dueling before: peoples egos get in the way of reality. It wasn't my idea to duel, but I certainly believe I proved my claims

I did everything defensively against you that I did against mad, and then I light attacked. It really isn't difficult to do.

To the bolded:
I told you what I wanted to accomplish before we fought, I was going to fight you with light attacks. I tried potion cooldown enchants because I thought they could give me more than recovery, I was wrong. I switched back and we stalemated. If I truly cared about "ego" I wouldn't have brought that setup to test in no cp when I've never ran it in there before, and if I cared about dying, I wouldn't have continually done exactly what I stated I was going to do in this thread, fight you with light attacks. I would have switched up my build a bit, I would have used skills and abilities...but that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was operating in good faith by testing things in different areas. Bolded is looking more and more like projection, which is too bad.

You killed me, good players are supposed to kill players just light attacking. It really should never get close, which is my contention. You continually saying you proved your point while you're cycling different debuffs and dots with ultimates while I am light attacking isn't proving the point you think it proves.

sabresandiego_ESO

FrankonPC wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Frank, you seem like a good guy but I don't think you are being honest here. None of those duels were close, you lost every duel by a wide margin and we probably dueled 6-7 times. In the two duels you claim we stalemated: that's not what happened. What actually happened is that the duels lasted a longer amount of time, and you were going to eventually lose to attrition but you crashed twice instead. High health builds are strong against burst and weaker vs attrition.

We dueled once when I put my old enchants back on, we only stalemated once iirc. You beat me handily when I did not have the recovery I had vs mad on. In one of them you beat me in like 20 seconds!

5:50 -9:10 I was at 70% mag before I crashed, with a pot coming up. you went into colossus twice. I don't have to worry about being honest when it's literally recorded. 3 minutes of dueling vs two ultimates and my resources aren't strained, we can agree that's a draw no? We can do it again if you'd like.

yet my stat build decisively won both NOCP duels against your triple proc setup: and I do not feel I was close to losing at any point. The nocp duels were over quickly and decisively.

How many times do i have to explain I was light attacking? You won decisively against light attacks when I have not run this setup in no cp. Congrats!

The third fake narrative I want to expose here is your claim that you're only using light attacks to show how OP that build is: but the truth is that your stats (magicka and spellpower and regen) are so low that using abilities would actually hurt you on that build because they would be inefficient and run you out of resources, and you'd have nothing left for defense. Thats the truth, which the masses don't realize because they are easy to fool - I am not.

I was not running out of resources when I put my old enchants on, see above.

The fourth fake narrative is that your build requires no skill to play: but that's also fake news. I watched you play and not only were you breathing heavily, you were doing all kinds of actions that a lesser player would not have done. You were not mindlessly light attacking like you portray to the masses. A mindless light attacker would have been dead in 30 seconds.

I think you're a good guy, and like I warned about dueling before: peoples egos get in the way of reality. It wasn't my idea to duel, but I certainly believe I proved my claims

I did everything defensively against you that I did against mad, and then I light attacked. It really isn't difficult to do.

To the bolded:
I told you what I wanted to accomplish before we fought, I was going to fight you with light attacks. I tried potion cooldown enchants because I thought they could give me more than recovery, I was wrong. I switched back and we stalemated. If I truly cared about "ego" I wouldn't have brought that setup to test in no cp when I've never ran it in there before, and if I cared about dying, I wouldn't have continually done exactly what I stated I was going to do in this thread, fight you with light attacks. I would have switched up my build a bit, I would have used skills and abilities...but that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was operating in good faith by testing things in different areas. Bolded is looking more and more like projection, which is too bad.

You killed me, good players are supposed to kill players just light attacking. It really should never get close, which is my contention. You continually saying you proved your point while you're cycling different debuffs and dots with ultimates while I am light attacking isn't proving the point you think it proves.

If we keep dueling: this does become about egos rather than actual testing and data analysis and that's not the goal here. The tests we did decisively showed that your Proc build is not as powerful as your video with Madhatten portrayed. In that video: the narrative was that a solidly built open world stat build easily lost a duel to a mindless triple proc build using primarily light attacks. You challenged me to disprove that narrative and I did. I showed up with a stat build, decisively won every duel that you didn't crash in, and was never close to losing even when I dropped to half health in one of the NOCP duels (which is easy to do when you have 14k HP).

I purposely showed up with a low health stat build to show that these proc builds aren't as overpowering as the narrative. I never said proc builds aren't strong. Do you really think Zenimax is incompetant? They created this game. They know what they are doing: and even if proc builds are a little bit too good in some scenarios: that's ok because it shifts the meta and makes the game fresh. I think we will see a lot more proc builds next patch. I like that and you don't, and that's ok. And maybe in the future, some particular proc set might be nerfed just like New Moons (a stat set) was this patch.

FrankonPC

If we keep dueling: this does become about egos rather than actual testing and data analysis and that's not the goal here. The tests we did decisively showed that your Proc build is not as powerful as your video with Madhatten portrayed. In that video: the narrative was that a solidly built open world stat build easily lost a duel to a mindless triple proc build using primarily light attacks. You challenged me to disprove that narrative and I did. I showed up with a stat build, decisively won every duel that you didn't crash in, and was never close to losing even when I dropped to half health in one of the NOCP duels (which is easy to do when you have 14k HP).

It's only about egos if you make it that way. I contended that we stalemated when I had my normal setup on, you're saying I didn't. We can just duel to prove it, or you can agree that we did and go from there. That's all I am saying. No ego on my end, just trying to end a pointless argument.

My narrative has always been stated in that video, in this thread, on other threads, and in my stream that light attacking with procs does too much free damage the way it's currently constructed. You keep saying it's one thing, and I'm telling you it's not true. I would think that my actions and words have proven that, but after 3 days of this, I guess not.

The thing is dude is I know you're a good player, and I know you play stamina necromancer the most. That's what I was told by a few people in my discord. That's why I wanted to fight you. I wanted to fight a good player on arguably the best class in the game right now to show how much pressure you can apply to a good opponent with a good spec. You're probably better than 90% of the population in this game and you have been playing since day one. It's the perfect test. If people can't see how a lesser skilled opponent on a weaker class would have a hard time contending against just light attacks then that's just a difference of opinion.

And these are the more avoidable magicka proc sets. I haven't even gotten to the stamina ones yet.

fred4

I guess it's no surprise that I will second the 4 points made by sabresandiego_ESO. EDIT: Ooof, several posts up now.

I've tried high health builds on occasion. Not ones that were also intended to do damage, but pure warden tanks. I lasted maybe 30 seconds against two experienced players. What sabresandiego_ESO says about these builds being susceptible to attrition is true. One of the disappointing things to see was that that hasn't changed. That's balance of sorts.

If you build a pure tank, you can last much longer than I did. I have a friend who used to do that, but in trying it myself I soon discovered that it requires skill to manage your resources and become an expert at that type of build. I feel this mirrors point 4 of sabresandiego_ESO's.

As soon as you put on so much as one procset, the elitists look down on you. I'm not saying that's you, @FrankonPC, but I count you as a purist. You don't like to wear proc sets on principle. Both purists and elitists IMO make the same mistake. They overestimate the skill that's needed for playing a stat-based build versus what's just general proficiency at ESO. They IMO also underestimate the compromises going into proc builds, because they don't play such builds medium to long term.

In reply to some of the other posts here, I can't stand the condescending attitude of players claiming that proc sets only really have their place as crutches for beginners, nor those that complain when they have difficulty 1vXing two players with procsets. It's entitled and self-serving.

As to your deaths, you were hedging your bets. Your original video showed a death, but you backpedaled and provided yourself an out. If I'd seen you pressuring sabresandiego_ESO's health bar consistently, I might have conceded the point. I did not see that. Next thing people say is "necro is OP", which may be true, but is shifting the goal posts. I think we've established there's one stat-based build / class that will beat your proc warden comfortably, that's what I take away from this.

fred4

FrankonPC wrote: »

If people can't see how a lesser skilled opponent on a weaker class would have a hard time contending against just light attacks then that's just a difference of opinion.

Your video was there to establish that your proc build would pressure sabresandiego_ESO. I did not see that. I appreciate you were trying different things, however none of your tweaks really worked (up to the point that I watched). The better sustain did seem to drag things out a bit, but from what I saw I believe sabresandiego_ESO's claim that you would have fallen eventually.

It may be the case that necro healing is so strong you couldn't pressure him, however that's all the video shows. Retconning this as the perfect test to show anything else is wishful thinking.

FrankonPC

Keep in mind that you're the one calling me a "purist", when all claims that I make on my channel are backed with video evidence of me playing with the gear or on the class. You've been commenting on my channel for years, I would assume you would know this at this point. I always test the gear or the class/spec before I make a strong opinion on where it stands. I don't like running proc sets because I HAVE ran proc sets and I don't enjoy the free damage they provide. I prefer to get my kills through my own actions and abilities. I have multiple clips on my channel over the years of me running proc sets on different specs. I know why you're attempting to lump me in with this group of people, and it's not true.

I was not hedging my bets. Everything is on stream as proof. I switched my enchants and could not sustain. Once I did, I could. There's no need to debate this when it's recorded.

there's one stat based build that can beat your proc warden

Did i ever say otherwise? Do i have to link my previous quotes before we fought again or are you just being disengenuous on purpose? I never once said that I could beat everyone with just light attacks. What I said is that I personally think I do too much pressure with just light attacks, and win or lose that's the point. I could fight the top duelists on PC NA and they will more than likely 100-0 me on this spec, AND it still wouldn't prove the point you think it makes, but it would for me.

WiredandTired

As a third party observer in this thing, nothing was really all that conclusive given the unstable nature of the PTS during the duels. Both sides haven't solidly proven their points yet. In my estimation, it'd take another 5-6 hours at least to fine tune and run multiple tests with multiple classes to come to a particular estimation. Else's loss on the noCP was 1 round at best, you can't draw a conclusion based on such a small sample set.

Multiple classes factored in would be the best way to get a sense of what might emerge. That one loss proves that Stamcro with a stat build is incredibly strong with its kit of defile, tankiness, and strong offensive power. It's not a surprise to anybody who plays pvp on a semi serious scale. The other data point you can draw from the duels is that CP provides more counterplay to both stat and proc sets. If anything, noCP should be abolished and the ability to have full access to preloaded CP layouts or CP scale-up would be more healthy before trying to balance procsets between CP or no CP.

Else is offering his opinion and hasn't lost any credibility at all. He seems to be open to being wrong and genuinely wants to figure out what'll come next. I think it does you no favors to declare yourself right just yet and labeling the opposing side as "fake" narratives. There are folks invested into proving themselves right on both sides of this argument and that also includes yourself with these labeling of other opinions as fake. I have my own biases too, I've played for procsets and the style is just not fun to play against or with. Sure they can be used to accentuate or cover the weaknesses of a particular class, but I'd rather they put less manpower into balancing sets and into balancing classes and abilities primarily.

FrankonPC

fred4 wrote: »

I believe sabresandiego_ESO's claim that you would have fallen eventually.

It may be the case that necro healing is so strong you couldn't pressure him, however that's all the video shows. Retconning this as the perfect test to show anything else is wishful thinking.

You believe, as I stand there at full resources that I would have fallen eventually. As I said, I'm more than willing to prove this wrong, and I thought the clip did.

You don't think fighting one of the best classes in the game against a good player is a good test? What is?