sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Most new sets in this game are proc sets, and for a good reason: they give the devs a lot of creative ability and are a lot of fun for the majority of players. You get cool new animations and game mechanics and if the set was designed properly, it usually has fair counterplay and good balance.
Unfortunately there is a very vocal minority of elitists and purists who always post in these forums against proc sets. These players are almost always high level PVP'rs (often duelers) with very big egos who think that their personal assessment of "skill" matters more than "fun" for the majority of players. These elitists are usually heavily invested in stat based builds and run things like balorghs, new moon, fury, clever alch, dragonguard, bloodspawn: and are extremely biased towards their investment and the way they have been playing this game for years. Their primary argument is that proc sets remove skill from the game because they fight for you, whereas with stat sets and stat based procs -> you still have to do the fighting. Let me explain why that is a false premise
1. When you use a damage proc set you give up the buffed stats you would have gotten with a stat based 5 piece set. This means that your entire character is less effective and unless the proc set is good enough of an alternative to this "opportunity cost" -> nobody will use it over the stat sets
2. No proc set is good enough where you don't have to "play" , because these sets go through balance testing. Whether you are using procs, or stat sets -> you still have to play the game. Proc sets do help newer/worse players contribute more, so they raise the skill floor -> but they don't lower the skill ceiling much at all because high end players understand counterplay and always adapt to new metas.
3. Devs have data: They can see that most of the high end PVPrs are using things like Balorghs, Bloodspawn, New Moon, Dragonguard, Fury, Clever Alch etc... They know that stat based builds and procs have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made. Data > Biased rants on forums
This game is about fun, not about some elitist measurement of skill. Proc sets give the devs so much more creative potential than most simple stat buff sets, and are fun for the majority of the player base. They also help shift metas around which keeps this game new and exciting.
I implore you to come to pc EU and play a few bgs, and then say stat based builds are stronger xD.
I like the idea of proc sets, but I do think that they provide too much offensive power.
And with the recent nerf to healing, a lot of healing skills no longer scale all that well with stats anyway, at least in no cp.
You can bump your weapon dmg by like 1k and barely feel the difference in vigor heals.
There is a reason why sets like malubeth, and hp recovery in general have become so popular.
Ive already made this point in other threads, but IMHO procsets should scale like regular skills and that would be a limitation enough itself.
Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »A proc set is fun. Entire spec built around just la and killing people is not. The point that it outplays a person built on, idk using skills, that is the problem.
Wow toxic fast, I played OP proc build before, really it get boring really fast, its like automated dmg, fun the first few times and then its like it doesn't even matter I here, and then you lose all joy.
Believe I played many setup, proc can be very OP good fun for laugh and giggles but does not feel as real gameplay.
Ragnaroek93 wrote: »WoW has a proc meta too, pvp participation there is at an all time low and everybody hates it. There is no silent majority which enjoys AFK dmg mechanics.
And nope, the elitist will build and play around procsets far better than casuals and abuse to much further extend. The people who put effort into their class and enjoy the gameplay how it is are the ones who are annoyed by proc metas.
relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Fur_like_snow wrote: »I mean a set that procs a million damage and kills all the enemy players in 500m would be pretty “fun” too but that doesn’t make it balanced. “Fun” is ultimately subjective.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.
The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue because it tells those lesser experienced players (weaker as you put it) they do not have to learn how to play as they can rely on proc sets playing the game for them. Nothing in the statement replying to my previous statement argues against that.
Cheers
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Fur_like_snow wrote: »I mean a set that procs a million damage and kills all the enemy players in 500m would be pretty “fun” too but that doesn’t make it balanced. “Fun” is ultimately subjective.
A set like that would be atrocious. Devs arent releasing sets like that.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.
The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.
The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue because it tells those lesser experienced players (weaker as you put it) they do not have to learn how to play as they can rely on proc sets playing the game for them. Nothing in the statement replying to my previous statement argues against that.
Cheers
Proc sets have the potential to be overpowered: but they have been underpowered for most of this games history ever since they nerfed viper/tremorscale etc...
You are also assuming that skill is something that comes to anybody who takes time to learn: that's just not true. Some players are just extremely good, and some are terrible no matter how much they try.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Most new sets in this game are proc sets, and for a good reason: they give the devs a lot of creative ability and are a lot of fun for the majority of players. You get cool new animations and game mechanics and if the set was designed properly, it usually has fair counterplay and good balance.
Unfortunately there is a very vocal minority of elitists and purists who always post in these forums against proc sets. These players are almost always high level PVP'rs (often duelers) with very big egos who think that their personal assessment of "skill" matters more than "fun" for the majority of players. These elitists are usually heavily invested in stat based builds and run things like balorghs, new moon, fury, clever alch, dragonguard, bloodspawn: and are extremely biased towards their investment and the way they have been playing this game for years. Their primary argument is that proc sets remove skill from the game because they fight for you, whereas with stat sets and stat based procs -> you still have to do the fighting. Let me explain why that is a false premise
1. When you use a damage proc set you give up the buffed stats you would have gotten with a stat based 5 piece set. This means that your entire character is less effective and unless the proc set is good enough of an alternative to this "opportunity cost" -> nobody will use it over the stat sets
2. No proc set is good enough where you don't have to "play" , because these sets go through balance testing. Whether you are using procs, or stat sets -> you still have to play the game. Proc sets do help newer/worse players contribute more, so they raise the skill floor -> but they don't lower the skill ceiling much at all because high end players understand counterplay and always adapt to new metas.
3. Devs have data: They can see that most of the high end PVPrs are using stat sets... They know that stat based builds have been over performing in most PVP compared to proc sets since this game was made. The only place where procs might be outperforming stats now is in NOCP, and that is refreshing because it creates alternative gameplay. Data > Biased rants on forums; and that is likely the reason why they recently improved all proc sets.
This game is about fun, not about some elitist measurement of skill. Proc sets give the devs so much more creative potential than most simple stat buff sets, and are fun for the majority of the player base. They raise the skill floor just enough to help weaker players contribute and enjoy the game more (without lowering the skill ceiling much), and they also help shift metas around which keeps this game new and exciting.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »I doubt many are suggesting proc sets should not or are not fun. They require much less skill to get them to perform so it helps newer players and others with less player skill. The issue is buffing them so they are closer to what a skilled player can do lowers the quality of gameplay in ESO and removes the need to learn how to play better. That is bad for the longevity of the game.
Skilled players can use proc sets too. Skilled players can also "counter" proc sets better than unskilled players. All proc sets really do is create diverse, fun gameplay and help weaker players contribute more. Proc sets arent anywhere near the point where they remove skill from the game. A good player wearing stat sets or proc sets will absolutely destroy weak players who are using procs.
I never said anything about proc sets creating diverse gameplay or that skilled players could not use them. I did say proc sets help less-skilled players. Those points seem out of place.
The issue is when proc sets help compete more evenly with players who have actually learned how to play there is an issue because it tells those lesser experienced players (weaker as you put it) they do not have to learn how to play as they can rely on proc sets playing the game for them. Nothing in the statement replying to my previous statement argues against that.
Cheers
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »