Simple Solution for Proc balance between PvE/PvP : Decrease their damage vastly and let them Crit

susmitds

As things are PTS, if not adjusted, letting proc set changes go live is a disaster in the making for PvP. Even on live, certain proc sets are downright broken in PvP. At the same time, for PvE, outside of Relenquen, no other proc set is even close in performance.

Lets face the core issue here. Proc sets perform vastly differently in PvP where burst damage is king and PvE where sustained DPS is king. A blanket buff of accessibility, reliability or damage to proc sets might increase their viability in PvE but at the same time pushes them deep into OP territory for PvP.

I can understand that this is an effort to increase the floor performance for both PvE and PvP. In PvE, it will certainly provide low APM players to obtain higher DPS, which is perfectly fine. But on the PvP side, the sheer burst or pressure obtained by using these sets vastly outperform stat based damage sets, indirectly allowing players to stack up on health and rely on "free damage".

Fortunately, there are already two stats that vary a lot between PvE and PvP: Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage. The average PvE build has much higher of both stats than PvP. Also the existence of crit resistance further decrease Critical Hit Damage in PvP. This can be used to balance proc sets separately in PvE and PvP.

Basically, decrease the damage of proc sets and let them crit again so that their average DPS remain same in PvE. Due to the much lower crit stats in PvP, there will be a significantly drop of damage of proc sets in PvP.

Let me elaborate with arbitrary examples.

Suppose a PvE build: Critical Hit Chance - 70% and Critical Hit Damage - 2x
Suppose a PvP build: Critical Hit Chance - 40% and Critical Hit Damage taking critical resistance of opponent into account - 1.25x

Lets see what happens when proc set damage is decreased by 40% but proc sets are allowed to crit.

Change in average DPS in percentage(PvE) = ((0.6)(0.3)+(0.6)(0.7)(2)-1)*100 = 2
Change in average DPS in percentage(PvP) = ((0.6)(0.6)+(0.6)(0.4)(1.25)-1)*100 = -34

As we can see, it is a 2% buff for PvE but a significant 34% nerf in PvP.

Now, even if Malacath's Band is used, it still won't hit current PTS numbers. The burst from the sets would be much more balanced as now to make proc sets somewhat effective, users would have to invest in crit stats, stopping stacking of proc sets and still won't get the earlier numbers.

ItsJustHashtag

Nobody is using proc sets for pve except monster sets

Kadoin

But what if that would ruin the performance plan?

susmitds

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Nobody is using proc sets for pve except monster sets

I mentioned that. And I believe, that is also a reason for the buff to proc sets. A lot of set balancing by ZoS depends on the popularity of said sets.

susmitds

Kadoin wrote: »

But what if that would ruin the performance plan?

It is a valid concern. There is no way to know without knowing critical calculations are coded in the game.

Alidel

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

Nobody is using proc sets for pve except monster sets

Relequen is a proc set.

WrathOfInnos

100% agree. The removal of crit from proc sets was one of the greatest mistakes in ESO. It had a vast impact on PVE, killing more than half the sets in the game for the majority of content, because in PVE crit is everything. PVE builds use things like full Divines with Thief or Shadow, Precise weapons, and sets like Mother’s Sorrow or Advancing Yokeda to get around 70-80% crit chance with well over 100% crit damage. This is why the Malacath Band is completely pointless in PVE, it would need to be close to 100% bonus damage to outweigh the benefits of a crit build.

In PVP it’s the opposite. With base crit resist, CP crit resist, Impen traits, and sets like Transmutation, crit just isn’t nearly as effective in PVP. This means that people build less crit chance and crit damage into their builds, instead choosing proc sets for instant burst damage. This is the perfect scenario for malacath’s band, ensuring 25% bonus damage while sacrificing very little.

To balance proc sets in PVE and PVP the obvious answer is to reduce their base damage (reducing the effectiveness of stacking 3 proc sets or 2 with malacath, while ignoring crit in PVP), while allowing them to crit (which would increase their effectiveness in PVE and allow their use in dungeons and trials instead of just character fantasy roleplay).

SHOW

Interesting thoughts here.

@FrankonPC - you just did an analysis on proc sets, do you think the above proposal could lead to a healthier PvP?

Faulgor

I might even go further and say, as has been suggested in another thread on the topic, that procs should scale like all other sources of damage, i.e. with spell/weapon power and magicka/stamina, etc.
That would stop tanky builds that deal tons of "free" damage with proc sets, and make proc sets more viable for PvE builds.

Mayrael

Meanwhile ZOS: Did you said buff proc sets? OK! 50K tooltips!

Jaxaxo

Actually really like this idea also. This would fix few problems: stacking procs with malacath in pvp, procs being mostly useless in pve and procs overperforming in nocp due to overall high dmg of them comparing to more stat dense build.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_BrianWheeler

can we get @susmitds a cookie?

Luckylancer

Correct fix: battlespirit will prevent proc crits, they will crit in pve. Reduce their dmg a little.

mairwen85

Luckylancer wrote: »

Correct fix: battlespirit will prevent proc crits, they will crit in pve. Reduce their dmg a little.

Any time we have to rely on battlespirit, it's because of bad design. Battle spirit shouldn't be a fix all for ZOS not thinking things through correctly. Susmitds' suggestion is the correct fix for this scenario and provides a semblance of the unicorn ZOS has been chasing for years: balance.

susmitds

Luckylancer wrote: »

Correct fix: battlespirit will prevent proc crits, they will crit in pve. Reduce their dmg a little.

Band-aid fixes on other band-aid fixes will only take you so far.

karekiz

Sure why not.

Moonsorrow

I like this suggestion.

But not think it will happen, they have now Audited all/most proc sets with the rule of not being able to Crit values, i doubt they will start a new audit cycle for Itemization in close future since it would mean more work.

I kinda think they will after this Itemization over focus again on classes core functions/passives, and the Champion Points changes/nerfs..

So sadly do not think gonna happen. They should have done these kind of adjustments back then when they took crit away completely from Proc sets.

And i think the Malacath + Proc sets is an intended design for pvp by ZOS.

And we will probably get more Mythics at next Chapter. They want us to cheese these to the max until new cheese arrives. Well, atleast these combos already available on Live servers do kill the tanks and we live in fast kill times now.

Of course the Healing Nerfs + Mythics/Proc itemization changes do not treat all classes/specs equally and some classes can still get very tanky combos with good damage, while others less so.. And solo & small-scale players get more easily pressured to death by zergs. Not taking an hour in a resource tower anymore against 30+ but more like 10-15 minutes hih. But again, this was an intended thingy too because of the "no way that 1 dudeson should live against us 10 for more than 1 minute!!" kind of demands everyday on forums.

It is what it is. - ESO pvp player 2020 (like 2019, but with more Procs)

Better embrace this coming 3 months atleast.. make the casuals complain about it when they get rekt and see changes happen then when enough crying on forums.

They may take my life, but for each one i take atleast 10 of them out first. I shall bomb with procs and fireworks, lighting up people in AP explosions, bringing happy smiles to everyone like a murderous Cyrodilic Santa Clause. Good times ahead.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Just make proc set dmg scale on dmg stats rather than be a fixed value. Then balance them around this.
You trade having stacking off GCD dmg for weaker overall stats.

If it was me i'd make all dmg scale off 'spell/weapon Damage' and healing scale off max resource value.
This way players have to have a balance between the 2 or go all out into 1 or the other.

FrankonPC

SHOW wrote: »

Interesting thoughts here.

@FrankonPC - you just did an analysis on proc sets, do you think the above proposal could lead to a healthier PvP?

Without seeing the exact numbers, yes absolutely. Scaling proc sets so that you can't stack multiple could also help.

With what the OP is saying, it would help make proc sets a lot less bursty in pvp due to the impen trait and the lower base value. The way it currently is, it's too easy to stack high healing, dmg mit, sustain and easy damage. If you can topple one or two of those things it's not bad.

xaraan

Here's the problem, zos keeps making weird decisions for weird reasons and often ignoring better suggestions of how to handle something for petty reasons.

As cocky as this sounds, I felt like I offered a good solution years ago when crits were removed from proc to begin with.

The big problem isn't just procs, or that they could crit back then, it's that they can all fire off at once dumping a lot of damage on someone within a second or two and allowing no counter play against that sort of barrage. In fact, the other thread that was start pointing out how proc sets can be fun and should be good has merit, and what they say about what procs offer equaling out to pure stat sets is valid as well. Anyone fighting against procs just to kill them as a good option and make them less than equal is fighting the wrong fight IMO. (Not so say some can't be overtuned and need correction). Again, the problem is that they can all trigger and dump their damage instantly. It wasn't that they could crit or that certain effects didn't have telegraphs (though that can help sometimes), it was that you can get hit by whatever effect triggers the proc (plus sometimes a LA/HA instantly) plus up to 3 effects (monster and 2 5pc) all within a second or two. This is virtually impossible to counter for most non-(pure)tanks.

What needed to happen years ago is leave the crits alone and have a global proc cooldown, whether it's one second or two seconds, etc. That you can have a proc fire off from a player, this allows crits to still be a thing for both PvE and PvP which makes giving up crit and using impen in pvp more important or using the malacath ring and losing crits even more of a giveaway. It also eliminates one shots of multiple procs all firing off and hitting on person instantly. It also can make proc sets more viable for PvE, not just b/c a monster set could crit, but b/c the fights are longer sustain style fights, even running procs with a cooldown can average out to be useful over the length of a fight. And obviously in PvP even an extra second or two can give a player the chance to trigger a heal, shield or dodge roll after taking a hard hit and be defensive for a moment before the next proc could trigger and hit them. And it would even have helped equalize sets like relequen to not need nerfs, as building up the stacks each second could continually trigger the cooldown making players have to build around that idea, either accepting a monster set may not fire off until max stacks or using sets that don't proc, or having relequen miss a stack build b/c a proc went off, etc. (There are several ways that could have been worked in). You could do other things with that cooldown as well if needed, like using a synergy also sits on the same cooldown. (Not saying that's necessarily how it should be done, just pointing out options to balance procs and triggers that offer free damage with no resource cost).

jaws343

The good thing about a change like this is it also allows a player to build specifically for crit chance/damage with proc sets. So they could get stronger procs from it but they would need to build for it.

nesakinter

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam This is probably the most logical solution from a balance perspective. Could we at least see a /lurk.

nesakinter

I dont understand why ZOS refuses to acknowledgement vastly superior recommendations to do something that screws over half of the playerbase while introducing more calculations from scaling.

gariondavey

nesakinter wrote: »

I dont understand why ZOS refuses to acknowledgement vastly superior recommendations to do something that screws over half of the playerbase while introducing more calculations from scaling.

This.

Also, great post, thread creator

SgtNuttzmeg

Imagine thinking that the same world that has mechanical acuity needs proc sets that Crit. 😂😂😂

nesakinter

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Imagine thinking that the same world that has mechanical acuity needs proc sets that Crit. 😂😂😂

If proc sets are nerfed by 40%, Acuity still wont be able boost damage to live levels in PvP proc enabled areas, due to crit resists. But it will be a buff in PvE, which is exactly what the goal is.

Sahidom

No. /signed

Item sets should not crit.

fathym1

This is, by far, the best decision. And was the first thing I thought of when I checked out the patch notes. If ZOS ever wants to reach the mythical point of balance between pvp and Pve this is the correct direction. Adding crit back to procs also increases the variety of viable armor stat combinations. With the current scaling method, crit chance on armor doesnt amplify the proc which makes these sets inherently less efficient than a proc set that only has SD/WD. This fixes that issue.

TheUndeadAmulet

This.... is a surprisingly good idea. Why hasn't ZOS thought of this already?

Keep in mind, getting 40% crit chance is no small feat - I can just barely reach it with minor and major savagery on my StamNB with set bonuses and class passives adding to it. Because of this, people would either:

• Build into crit, reducing the amount of procs they can fire off at once, since crit is much more difficult to build into on PvP. Again, bringing up my StamNB, the only proc set I could viably fit without significantly reducing my stats is a monster set such as selenes.
• Build into raw stats and ignore proc sets, similar to the metas we saw before proc sets.

@xaraan makes another good point: the main issue with procs is that they circumvent the GCD allowing for large amounts of burst damage in a short window, which is the primary method of killing people in PvP.

ZOS's current solution of making procs scale off of weapon/spell damage and max magicka/stamina/health was supposed to solve this by forcing players to invest into sets that give stats, reducing the amount of procs they could use at once. Unfortunately, ZOS didn't think about how easy it is to stack these stats nowadays, mostly due to items giving lots of base stats, and buffs and abilities multiplying these stats.

In comparison, crit is a lot more difficult to stack, and with a lot more downsides in PvP. The crit chance buffs are additive, not multiplicative - they don't increase your crit by a percentage, they add to your crit chance. Same with crit damage buffs, which might multiply damage, but can only be increased additively.

TL;DR: Good post, making procs crit - that is, making them scale off of crit as opposed to other max stats - solves a lot of the issues inherent in procs and solves the problem of procs being useless in PvE.

fathym1

Bumping this post so hopefully devs actually see it. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam
Also do you guys think they should just make procs scale the same way spells do? It would make balancing more simple and lessen the issue of balancing between stam and mag procs.

ealdwin

fathym1 wrote: »

Bumping this post so hopefully devs actually see it. @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Gilliam
Also do you guys think they should just make procs scale the same way spells do? It would make balancing more simple and lessen the issue of balancing between stam and mag procs.

Yes, I do think proc damage/healing should scale the same way that spells and feats do—off of the combination of Max Magicka/Stamina and Spell/Weapon Damage.

Merforum

While scaling proc sets off crit is less devastating for PVE it still misses the whole point, proc sets are only for FUN and diversity in PVE. Min/maxers don't use them anyway, Rele is ONLY one anyone who cares about high DPS would ever use. All the others are used by people who won't stack crit or any stats, but rather use solo/hybird type builds with a good spread of stats. Honestly even with 4 sets, proc monster, 2 proc 5 piece and proc arena back bar, MAYBE gives 5K DPS extra, all those complaining about fake/low DPS in DF imagine if these nerfs go live.

The problem with proc sets in PVP is ONLY that they removed most of the 'chances to proc', so many are instant proc as was said earlier (even though they have massive cooldowns making them situational at best). They had already changed a bunch of them from high one shot damage to DOTs which is a step in right direction if you wanted to balance for both PVE and PVP. They actually should change BB and shalk to DOTs for the same reason.


Ideally they should have just removed certain sets from PVP and problem solved permanently but I guess that was too easy or their definition of proc sets is way too huge. The other recommendation I saw was to have proc global cooldown, meaning you couldn't have 2 go off in same second. That seem like a better idea, at least that it won't effect PVE, and reduce high burst potential a bit. They've already also changed the fact that procs can proc other procs which is ONLY FOR PVP, kind of sucks for PVE, but to extend that idea what about allowing even the normal condition to only proc one set at a time. For instance, if LA proc 3 different sets you wear, you'd have to do 3 LA to proc each one separately, not 1 LA to proc all 3.

Mind you, I actually don't agree at all that procs were ever competitive in PVP or PVE, just for fun, and it is only 1vXers who made it a national emergency, but there are easier ways to address this.