Squidgaurd wrote: »

No

Please explain. Don't you just love the "I say so" answers?

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Cheating: fraudulent; dishonest: applied to persons.

False; deceptive; made or fitted to defraud: applied to things.
n. An act of deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition.

So no. It’s not cheating. Especially when it’s an open option for you as well as your opponent.

It’s like playing football and not wearing a helmet and calling the other team cheaters because they’re wearing one.

This

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Its an analogy. PC and Console are two different classrooms. PC gets an open note test. Console gets a closed note test (thanks to their Console providers not providing PTS, ESO Logs, or add-ons). Everyone knew that ahead of time when they bought ESO for their platform.

On the PC Open note test, everyone is allowed to have their notes out to get answers. There are no extra prizes for not bringing your notes except for maybe feeling smug that "I didnt need my notes, even though they were totally allowed." If you call students using their notes "cheaters", they are going to laugh, because its an open note test. Notes are 100% allowed, and your grade isn't somehow more valid because you didnt use your notes. In fact, if you missed answers because you didnt use your notes, its a valid question to ask "You know its an open note test, right?"

On Console, its a closed note test.

There's just no point in comparing the two tests. Why do people keep trying to compare Console and PC, except to point out that ZOS should totally make more QOL addons available for Console as part of the base game? I.e. that ZOS should help make Console also an open note test.

(Note: all analogies break down when pushed too hard.)

As a teacher, I've given open note tests. If there's a student not using their notes, I will ask "You know you can use your notes, right?" And if they don't want to, I won't push too hard, but I will warn them, "If you make mistakes because you don't have your notes, I'm not giving extra credit." Its the student's choice, and they can deal with the consequences.

Hope that explains that comment in a little more detail.

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Davor: After reading several of your posts/responses, I have to say that if you don't understand this analogy, then your not going to be able to have the discussion/conversation that your original post talks about.

Your original post seems to be saying "mods are cheats, convince me otherwise" and as long as you hold to that premise, then I do not see that there really is any discussion to be made. This is what @Jhalin was trying to point out in his post.

IMO, mods are not cheats as they are allowed in the TOS, and industry wide MODs are used in most MMO games. I do not feel that it requires any argument for why they are not cheats. As I have posted in other threads, if you have played other MMO's there are several Quality of Life elements missing from ESO that you can only get from MODs. IMO they should be part of the base game, but they are not. Therefor we use the MODs.

It like asking that old question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"


I've only been playing ESO for about 6 months now, I found the base game without mods to be very painful to play when I compared ESO to the other MMO's that I have played in the past 20+ years of my gaming experience. Even the wife was eager to be able to add Mods to her ESO gaming experience.

I can understand your argument for the use of mods in PVP, but if the mod is available to all, is it really cheating if one person decides not to use mods versus the player that chooses to use what is available to them? You cant compare PC to Console as they do not compete against each other.

Technically no. Subjectively speaking, you might say either.

There is some measure that reduces certain aspects of challenge in the game. So it becomes easier depending on the type of addon, combat most of all as far as PvP goes. It can also become a crutch and thus a problem, when you get accustomed to it and take it for granted. When it suddenly doesn't work for some reason (outdated or broken), you might have a problem...

For example: FTC shows you when you are doing damage, an advantage especially if you are using seige weapons without sight on your target. Imagine doing without it after some time...

Another one would be "PvP-Alerts", which was/is making it really easy to counter sneak attacks for example among other things. Those who used it, probably know how the loss of this addon felt afterwards. So it's important to weigh the advantages of addons making it easier against the fun they get from a challenge. At least for those very few, who actually want some challange as opposed to some easy won drops and AP.

edit: spelling

starkerealm wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Not an attack directed at OP, but it baffles me that a lot of console players would jump all over players who use add ons rather than Microsoft and Sony who forbid their use.

People have a distorted perspective of what the addons are. Add in things like CE, and you can understand why people who don't have access to the system can confuse it for mods in something like Skyrim. Not in this thread, obviously, but I've seen people complaining about using addons to make overpowered gear. That's not how the system works, but if you're stuck on PS4 or XB1, you have no way to know that.

Yeah, I can see what you mean. Still, it would be nice if at the 5 year mark the we had more access to a massive part of the game QOL available towards console players. Maybe we need to pestor MS and Sony a bit more relentlessly once the combat changes have become more stable. I've never played on console before, but it seems kind of silly they cant even get a lazy writ crafter.

Edit: It might be easier for ZoS to make some things base game, like a dressing room feature.

The dirty truth to the addons is, some of them are pretty messy. Auto Categories can downright break, requiring you to dig into the files with notepad to fix damaged data.

I seriously suspect the reason you can't get addons on console is simply that they could never get them past cert. Still, I feel you, and some of the major stuff should be baked into the base game UI. Now, ZOS has been doing that, with stuff like multi-craft getting baked straight into the game, so there is some hope.

I think so too.

During the development of the single player games of Elder Scrolls, particularly from part 3 to 5 you could see this, the modding community basically gave the developers new ideas. The same could be said about creators of addons, so I think it's just a matter of time until you don't need to download certain addons any more.

Davor wrote: »

So much to read and reply to. Great points made. Just wanted to say something here.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

First off, FallOut76 is a bad comparison.

Sorry I see I haven't explained myself. In no way am I comparing this to Fallout 76. I only mentioned Fallout 76 is because that is where the idea popped in my head, and where it started me thinking if it is true and if true how it would apply to ESO. Hence I made the thread here.

I have read a few good points made, people have said Zenimax Online endorses it. Right there, that I totally forgot is that no, it's not a cheat.

Can it be said it's legal cheating though? Yes we can look up on Google and various web sites to find an answer or location. I do that many times. That is cheating though. It doesn't hurt anyone EXCEPT when someone claims they are better than someone else.

It's one to have played the game and know where the locations are. Thing is, when some of these "smart people" who claim that this is the way to play ESO, why is it they have skyshards locations, book locations etc? After all if you are so "smart" why need cheats to find them?

"It's a time saver some will say." Time saver or not, that is cheating because you are not finding it the natural way of playing the game of finding it yourself. Again, different if you can remember, but since people use them means they can't remember where they are and need them to get their skill points.

So now we have some people (not saying all, but some) who claim to be "better" than others, or say "this is the way to play". So if they are so knowladgeable, then why use them in the first place? How can we trust someone who "just says so without explanation" when you see they need help playing the game.

Or someone else say "I am better than you so you should be doing this" to someone else but they use these Quality of Life features or plain cheating? Why is it cheating? For most it saves time. Time not to stop and look at map, time not to search for skyshard or books to get skill points and achievements. Yes it's one thing to go online and check for yourself, but it's another to have it in the game. So it is a cheat because now you don't have to take time to do it. While it does seem trivial, I just get a kick for someone to make a new alt and then say they are better than someone else because it takes them less time to do so than others who are not "as good" but don't use them. Does this make sense?

While it is still allowed by Zenimax Online, it's still an advantage that the developers didn't want people to have. So we are playing a way that Zenimax didn't originally want, or it would have been in the game. I look it as jay walking. In lots of places, it's against the law, but most people who do it, never get charged for doing so. Not really a big deal but just one of those just because it's allowed don't mean it is still not wrong. Does that make sense? Yes I know once Zenimax Online says something is legal then it is.

How can a cyber jock claim he is so good or much better than someone else or claim a game should be played this way when they take short cuts and someone who doesn't take short cuts but then is just as good as other person but just took a few days, weeks, months more to achieve. They are better because they "saved" time and didn't want to take the time and there fore doing something on equal footing wasn't done, so it is a cheat. Legal or not.

Back to reading the other posts.

Hi there. I see what you are struggling with here but the way you are looking at what "cheating" means is, I believe, incorrect, and a few ideas are being conflated and muddled up. Some responses to the thoughts I picked up from your comments that might help:

Idea 1: Looking something up online is "cheating" because it is outside of the game and therefore bypassing the way it is meant to be played.

This is completely false for the real meaning of the word. One may set a personal standard for themselves that they will discover everything in a game and not get any help, but the game companies (who make the rules on what is cheating in their games) do not agree at all. How do I know? Because game guides are a thing.

Look, here is one Bethesda made itself, for its own game, TES IV Oblivion: https://amazon.com/dp/0761552766/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

Well, you may argue that if a company doesn't make a guide for its own game, that it might consider outside information cheating. But no. Even if a third party uses images or content from a game, it must get permission from the creator. There are some third party guides out there for ESO, if you look around. If ZOS/Bethesda felt that players using third party guides was "cheating" permission would never have been granted for those publications, they would not support the streaming of their game on Twitch, etc.

Idea 2: If someone has an advantage, it is cheating.

Nope. As already mentioned, there are always acceptable competitive advantages in a competition. Not to mention that there has to BE a competition to be able to cheat at it. It is only cheating if the game company expressly forbids it. For example, an exploit that is called an exploit by the company. Continue to use the exploit and you are cheating.

Idea 3: If something is in the game, it is cheating because of the time it saves.

Besides the fact that this assumes that shortcuts to do things faster are cheating, which is false unless one is in a timed competition where the criteria for winning is speed, it is also making an assumption that having additional info inside the game is cheating because something inside the game is definitely going to save time over resources outside the game. But I could have a friend surfing the web and guiding me looking over my shoulder. I could drink a bunch of caffeine to power through a night of playing without sleeping. I could order ergonomic chairs/wrist rests/pillows and more to make it so I can comfortably play for longer periods of time. There are lots of ways one could potentially save time or make faster progress than others with advantages outside of the game. Either all of them are bad, or they are all OK, but something being inside the game specifically doesn't make it a WORSE advantage than others, necessarily.

By the way, this conflicts with your first statement. It can't be cheating to look up things on Google (because since the info isn't in the game you're not meant to come by it that way) but then also be cheating when the info IS in the game because it is more convenient.

Idea 4: Someone saying they are better than you means there is an official competition with rules and regulations, which can then be broken and would be cheating.

These were not your exact words but is really what you are saying. If individual A levels a character faster than individual B, and individual A brags about it, if individual B feels bad at the statement then individual A is cheating if they used an advantage that helped them accomplish what they are bragging about.

But people can brag about anything. "I made the best looking character." "I made more gold today." "I completed the most quests." NONE of these claims actually mean one person is superior over the other. Just because someone says "oh look I am better because ..." doesn't make it so. Leveling an alt faster isn't a skill or a measurement of anything. There isn't a competition out there where ZOS lets two people create an alt at the same time, and then the one who gets to cp160 first wins a prize. The entire premise that if someone says they are better then they have initiated a competition with rules and regulations is very flawed.

If I have high speed internet and my friend has dial-up and, on patch day, my game patches faster, and I brag to my friend that I was able to log in faster, am I cheating at ESO because I have faster internet? However if my game patches faster and I log in faster, but I don't brag or make any comment to my friend at all, am I then somehow not cheating just because my friend doesn't feel bad?

Anyway, no, I don't think using add-ons are cheating, "legal" cheating, an advantage that should be considered cheating, or anything else along those lines. And yes, I support any and all heavily-relied-upon concepts in add-ons being added to the base game UI if possible.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Its an analogy. PC and Console are two different classrooms. PC gets an open note test. Console gets a closed note test (thanks to their Console providers not providing PTS, ESO Logs, or add-ons). Everyone knew that ahead of time when they bought ESO for their platform.

On the PC Open note test, everyone is allowed to have their notes out to get answers. There are no extra prizes for not bringing your notes except for maybe feeling smug that "I didnt need my notes, even though they were totally allowed." If you call students using their notes "cheaters", they are going to laugh, because its an open note test. Notes are 100% allowed, and your grade isn't somehow more valid because you didnt use your notes. In fact, if you missed answers because you didnt use your notes, its a valid question to ask "You know its an open note test, right?"

Tank you for this. You mean open book test. I never herd of open note test. OK this makes sense now. Never herd that expression before. For us in Ontario at least back in the day it was "open book test". We hardly ever had them. Notes were on paper and were never allowed to be brought. This is why it seemed so weird for me.

Well here is one. Not sure how it is else where in the world, but here in Canada, or at least in Ontario, if we win a prize we need to answer a skill testing question with no help with any device, digital or what ever or have someone help us and need to do it on our own in a specific amount of time.

Other parts of the world they can use a calculator if they need to answer a question to get a prize. Is it a cheat? No, because it is allowed, BUT for me it would be an "unfair" advantage though because I don't get to use the calculator.

I curious, what would be the proper term, or wording we should use? Playing the same game with different rules. Unfair? Unfair advantage?

There's just no point in comparing the two tests.

The way I see it, and I am not saying you are wrong just to show my opinion and at least understand why I am thinking this. Reason I see there is comparing is because I believe when some people say "git gud" or others I have seen said "use this app it will help you in combat" and most times people will say "I am on console" or others just don't want to use apps and play the game on how Zenimax Online wants us to.


So how is it fair for someone using ad-ons and then tell someone get better only because they use it? For people who don't do this, which is most I believe, it's a non issue but I do laugh at a person who thinks they are good just because they use an ad-ons that helps them and without it, they can't play as good.

I play better on PC because I have ad-ons I use, but on console game is a bit harder because of no ad-ons. That is why I feel like I am cheating on PC. Even if it's legal, it does for me feel like cheating. When I get all the achievements for finding the skyshards, it feels good, but knowing I need to look at Google or someone using an ad-on, it doesn't feel good for me because they needed help to find it.

Nothing wrong to cheat in single player games because it ads fun to the game. Thing is once SOMEONE does try and tell someone else to get better is using an ad-on that is different. That is getting help not on your own.


Just to make clear which it seems I didn't do, I am not calling anyone a cheater, saying it is cheating and we shouldn't do it. For me, at that moment of time, I felt I was, and then got thinking were the people on the other forum correct after all, when I was in the shoes of the camp saying "it's not cheating". Were they correct after all?

Doesn't matter, I just thought we all could have a good conversation and talk about something different for once. Surprised we didn't have anyone say "nerf sorcerers" or "stop nerfing things". Nice to discuss something else for once.

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

This!

Only read TL;DR.....

Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine walking into an open note test and saying everyone’s notes were cheating because you failed to bring your notes.

That’s the OP

How is that? Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Again, give examples as I said before to show how someone is wrong. In this case how am I wrong? Just trying to shame? I don't understand what you ment. Love an explanation.

Davor: After reading several of your posts/responses, I have to say that if you don't understand this analogy, then your not going to be able to have the discussion/conversation that your original post talks about.

As I said above, you can see I didn't understand at all. For me the term is "open book test" so reading open note test" didn't make sense to me. I guess it's something like chips/fries lift/escalator , chips/crisps etc.

Your original post seems to be saying "mods are cheats, convince me otherwise" and as long as you hold to that premise, then I do not see that there really is any discussion to be made. This is what @Jhalin was trying to point out in his post.

No not at all, I am not trying to say that. I don't need convincing. I say it's not a cheat, but it felt like cheating and now I can understand why people on the other forum would consider it cheating. Just wanted to see how people opinions here. I did say "While my stance on Ad-ons or mods what ever you want to call it, when playing a single player game ad-ons/mods don't matter. Play how you want."

I would think that would show that it's not cheating. I guess it's I suck at writing and trying to put words in my head onto paper failed again.

IMO, mods are not cheats as they are allowed in the TOS, and industry wide MODs are used in most MMO games. I do not feel that it requires any argument for why they are not cheats. As I have posted in other threads, if you have played other MMO's there are several Quality of Life elements missing from ESO that you can only get from MODs. IMO they should be part of the base game, but they are not. Therefor we use the MODs.

Why are they not in the game? They are not in the game because Zenimax Online CHOOSE not to have them in. It's like saying hockey and baseball. Why not use hockey sticks in baseball? We can check the other player then. While they are both sports, they are different sports, just like ESO is a different MMO.

I agree add-ons are not cheats but there are some ad-ons that were cheats. Again, what I didn't explain is this is only for people who think they are better than others because they use ad-ons to help them.

I guess it's like a race. I am going to race Usain Bolt to see who has the better time. I win because I used a car. It wasn't against the rules because no where did it say I needed to run. So did I cheat? No. Is it right or correct? I guess that is what I am saying when it's one on one. When does it become something helpful and when is it a QoL issue.

Sadly my poor writing skills didn't convey this.

It like asking that old question "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

This I don't understand either. I think it's best left unsaid.

I've only been playing ESO for about 6 months now, I found the base game without mods to be very painful to play when I compared ESO to the other MMO's that I have played in the past 20+ years of my gaming experience. Even the wife was eager to be able to add Mods to her ESO gaming experience.

I fully agree, not saying it's wrong at all.

I can understand your argument for the use of mods in PVP, but if the mod is available to all, is it really cheating if one person decides not to use mods versus the player that chooses to use what is available to them? You cant compare PC to Console as they do not compete against each other.

Yeah I am talking about when it's when it is PvP or one on one. I just found it funny I found myself cheating when playing. So that means I cheated myself and nobody else

Still we are having great discussions, no?

thorwyn wrote: »

Is an ESO+ subscription cheating? Think of all the advantages over those people who might not have access to Cloudrest or Sunspire, let alone an infinite crafting bag.

Well, it could. Some people do say it's pay to win because you get more storage and you do get an actual game boost. So two people starting at the same time and playing roughly the same way the person who has ESO+ will have an "up" on the other person.

Would I call it a cheat? No. I am not even calling add-ons cheating. Now that you bring it up, someone can say it is (not me ) and I wouldn't be able to prove it that it's not.

World of Tanks allows players to use mods, addons but they also point out which mods give user significant advantages and forbid them.
ESO can learn a thing or two from those guys