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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE DPS

  • StopDropAndBear
    StopDropAndBear
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    Re: Soul Trap
    it just feels....weird??? that the skill the game gives everybody for free would be so much more powerful than many if not most of your class specific dots. This just all reminds me of when Trainee gear was actually better for max level players than beginners
  • ESO_Nightingale
    ESO_Nightingale
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    Why did magicka warden get nerfed so hard? They were already dealing less DPS than any other class. There was no reason to touch their Advanced Species passive.

    Controlled DPS tests by Liko: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

    Magicka Sorcerer: 93k
    Magicka Templar: 90k
    Magicka DK: 89k
    Magicka Necromancer: 89k
    Magicka NB: 87k
    Magicka Warden: 86k

    ESO Logs for Vet Sunspire: https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#dataset=95&difficulty=121&metric=dps&aggregate=amount

    Magicka Templar: 57k (4,136 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Sorcerer: 55k (6,502 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka DK: 53k (680 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka NB: 53k (1,388 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Warden: 51k (228 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Necromancer: 44k (316 players in last 2 weeks)

    But you already have access to these numbers. Why don't you ever use them to make informed balance decisions?

    I get why you think that advanced species didn't need a nerf. But i think it did. I think the original 2% was fine and that increasing that passive makes animal companions skills less of a choice and more of a requirement because it buffs everything else too while animal companions skills are slotted. I think the damage should have been funneled back into the skills in terms of unique and interesting effects. Not given to passives. The fetcher buff was not enough. And also not exactly what was needed. It seems for some reason that adjusting damage values is all zos seems to be bothered doing to our absolutely horrendous class.

    We have been waiting for more than 2 years for stuff to really change for the better, while also reporting not only major pain points, but suggestions as well.
    Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/Q2ncUsv

    Let's make frost better for everyone!
  • Derra
    Derra
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    Czekoludek wrote: »
    I understand that if you play magblade you will feel you´re also nerfed (and is true) but you cannot imagine the severity of these nerfs for sorc.
    Believe me, magblades are probably the ones that can imagine the severity of these nerfs the best as we were nerfed couple patches from best DPS to the trash. Welcome to the trash club, all hail our Necro overlords

    Sorc has been there (trash dps) for quite some time in 2015 and 2016. I think the long term players will remember.
    Every comment is from a pvp pov unless stated otherwise.

    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 50

  • LordLomax
    LordLomax
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    Ashjunkie wrote: »
    Isn't there a way to just nerf people while they are in cyrodil since it is the PVPers that seem to complain about the power of classes the most instead of messing w/ the PVErs as well? The proposed changes to our pet sorcs seems more painful than any of the previous patches... and the orbs. THE ORBS!!!??

    Yes there is using battle spirit lots of people have said it loads but Zos ignore/refuse to do this !?
  • stevenyaub16_ESO
    stevenyaub16_ESO
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    With the new buff to barbed trap, which pushes melee stamDDs back to a more comfortable play (after volley nerf)

    Is there any consideration towards bow/bow users? They have fallen far behind stam melee now. Would there be a revision of lightweight trap to make up for it? (more damage or lower cost) or perhaps buff to arrow spray dot?
  • AgentSylo
    AgentSylo
    LordLomax wrote: »
    Ashjunkie wrote: »
    Isn't there a way to just nerf people while they are in cyrodil since it is the PVPers that seem to complain about the power of classes the most instead of messing w/ the PVErs as well? The proposed changes to our pet sorcs seems more painful than any of the previous patches... and the orbs. THE ORBS!!!??

    Yes there is using battle spirit lots of people have said it loads but Zos ignore/refuse to do this !?

    Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous, this has been asked for so many years now, 2019 an they still havent/won't do it.

    I've seen countless forum threads, tweets, youtubers/comments, etc etc asking... No.... Begging for this over the years of eso and it just falls on deaf ears.

    It's shame really, whoever is in charge of lead combat design/changes .... I have no words, I don't want to get banned lol
  • FenrisWolf1136
    FenrisWolf1136
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    AgentSylo wrote: »
    LordLomax wrote: »
    Ashjunkie wrote: »
    Isn't there a way to just nerf people while they are in cyrodil since it is the PVPers that seem to complain about the power of classes the most instead of messing w/ the PVErs as well? The proposed changes to our pet sorcs seems more painful than any of the previous patches... and the orbs. THE ORBS!!!??

    Yes there is using battle spirit lots of people have said it loads but Zos ignore/refuse to do this !?

    Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous, this has been asked for so many years now, 2019 an they still havent/won't do it.

    I've seen countless forum threads, tweets, youtubers/comments, etc etc asking... No.... Begging for this over the years of eso and it just falls on deaf ears.

    It's shame really, whoever is in charge of lead combat design/changes .... I have no words, I don't want to get banned lol

    Pretty sure i read the lead is the old pvp combat lead. Which makes sense in a way because the werewolf changes for update 23 were done with solely pvp in mind. Hurts the playstyle for pve a lot because its limited them to a point where pack leader is rendered entirely useless, damage has dropped, and costs went up as strength went down.

    Pvp and pve will never find a happy balance together and needs to be balanced seperately. So until someone at zos figures that out, and tries playing their own game for a bit, the same old arguements will come up endlessly. Don't think they have the team size to make a change like that without stopping new content flow, and they don't want to do that.
    Edited by FenrisWolf1136 on July 23, 2019 8:42PM
    PvE werewolf player since day 1. Working towards completing all end game content with a werewolf because it is a valid endgame playstyle. Cp 830+
  • Malada
    Malada
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    I hate to say this, but I do not like the direction that the combat team is going. I have came back from launch and first few months of game (when it was pay to sub) and things were better.
    - Lag issue: I did notice a lot of lag at times, especially in PvP when facing a zerg of 10-15 people. I am not sure if some classes cause more lag then others based off the way skills work …regardless there has been many people talk about this server lag issue. It is apparently bad across the board in all platforms. Consuls seem to have it the worst from what people were saying.
    With all this being said, no one has really came out and addressed it to the extent of hey we are going to fix it or are in the process of getting together a team just for this. I mean hell why would a game that has so much potential and a strong player base ignore their community. Does ZOS not realize that these things are important enough to put into context for the community?
    - Another issue: The issues with BG ques taking forever because of some internal programming issue is unacceptable. How long has the game had Non-CP BG's and there are still issues? Give us a break and actually fix things that are broken in a reasonable time sensitive manner. Giving us a "We know of the issue, and will take care of it soon" ...we are waiting ZOS.
    - Similar issue as above, but in Dungeon Ques. Need I say more? It has had the same issue.
    I feel like the game has a lot of potential if put in competent hands. If ZOS has their hands tied in a way that they cannot communicate better with the community, or does not have enough help then that is another story/excuse.

    I am disappointed in what I have seen the past few months coming back, and am going to leave again (already cancelled sub) and will not be coming back until some changes are made in regards to the server issues. Btw I play on PC NA.

    Best of luck & Wish the community the best in the future! I hope positive changes are made across the board especially Server and BG/Dungeon ques.

    Hehehe

    While I can't blame you and feel much the same way ... I am inclined to stay and watch the madness unfold.

    It's going to be Great! Better entertainment than most games however for different reasons >:D
  • brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
    Why did magicka warden get nerfed so hard? They were already dealing less DPS than any other class. There was no reason to touch their Advanced Species passive.

    Controlled DPS tests by Liko: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

    Magicka Sorcerer: 93k
    Magicka Templar: 90k
    Magicka DK: 89k
    Magicka Necromancer: 89k
    Magicka NB: 87k
    Magicka Warden: 86k

    ESO Logs for Vet Sunspire: https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#dataset=95&difficulty=121&metric=dps&aggregate=amount

    Magicka Templar: 57k (4,136 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Sorcerer: 55k (6,502 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka DK: 53k (680 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka NB: 53k (1,388 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Warden: 51k (228 players in last 2 weeks)
    Magicka Necromancer: 44k (316 players in last 2 weeks)

    But you already have access to these numbers. Why don't you ever use them to make informed balance decisions?

    I get why you think that advanced species didn't need a nerf. But i think it did. I think the original 2% was fine and that increasing that passive makes animal companions skills less of a choice and more of a requirement because it buffs everything else too while animal companions skills are slotted. I think the damage should have been funneled back into the skills in terms of unique and interesting effects. Not given to passives. The fetcher buff was not enough. And also not exactly what was needed. It seems for some reason that adjusting damage values is all zos seems to be bothered doing to our absolutely horrendous class.

    We have been waiting for more than 2 years for stuff to really change for the better, while also reporting not only major pain points, but suggestions as well.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    Why not check the numbers in someone you know is competent like Liko, have a dedicated team like how you have class reps, I would be fine for parsing for dragonknights, and then adjust based on that fact so it's balanced instead of having stamcro hit so much higher than the rest.
    Raise your arguments, not your insults.

    Jodynn/Jo_oJ PC NA

    PvE and PvP

    MagDK
    StamDK
  • iLLcrime
    iLLcrime
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    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    Nyqwont wrote: »
    ZOS - here's your tl;dl player feedback:
    your 'changes' (won't use the n word) make no sense, frustrate most players and generally decrease player enjoyment. They make the game worse.

    And were do you get that from? I have heard a lot of positive responses as well, the complaints are just (as usual) louder and more vocal, but not more frequent based on what I observed.

    Only 1 build for stamina on the top end. Running flurry.. With rest dots. Most non class. This is as far away from fun as it gets.
    Example necro. Instead of zos fixing the skills on it(blastbones/syphon), they force people to go away from class main skills into weapon etc skills.That is where I and alot of player have issues with.

    It appears they can't be bothered to actually fix class skills. So they push you into weapon skills. Where everyone runs the exact same build on every class(Rapid Strikes)
    I have a huge issue with that. They didn't bother to fix blastbones and syphon since elsweyr PTS. And it is still bugged in the same way as back then.

    I get it, you enjoy the game and you are a rep. But how can you be a fan of this? They make the game dull and bland. Instead of fixing what was broken.

    I never voiced my opinion anywhere, and me bring a rep has nothing to do with this, so stop trying to use it against me. It does not affect the feedback I pass on in any shape or form. Have I said I like that weapon skills are better than class skills right now?

    I'm very much aware of the stale situation. But let me ask one question: what is this ability audit for? It is supposed to bring the numbers of abilities more in line before the classes are tackled individually so there is a more consistent foundation. They applied standards to abilities, and it happened to make weapon abilities better than class abilities for now, and for now only.

    You can very justifiably be unsatisfied now, but this isnt a class balance patch, it is a number balancing patch before classes are tackled. This has been voiced by zos before, but people seem to forget that.

    Also, in a situation where only single target damage matters you might be right that there are no options because there always is one best option. In sunspire, I (and as far as I see it others do too) happen to use very different gear setups depending on the fight and if you watch Hodors Godslayer, they do so too. Sure on a dummy you have only one setup, but in a trial that isnt filled with pure parse bosses you dont.

    Am I happy that raids will still stack necros cause other classes have nothing comparable to bring to the table? No. But I still have hope that once the ability audit is done, we might have a better situation than we ever did because classes will have an identity they didnt have in a long time.

    Also, let me put it this way: people complained about vma weapons being useless for a long time. Now they are used, and people complain that they "have to" put it on every build even though the difference between then and other options is marginally big. In a game where dps is the main goal for any encounter and by now, and where defense and survivability isnt important enough, the option that provides the highest dps will always be preferred.

    And to the class ability fix thing: they are working on these things as fast as possible. Also, the patch notes included various fixes for class abilities, necro as well, are you ignoring those? Do I think the fixes should come faster? Yes, but they have a limited team number working on them. And you cant blame to combat team or the software engineers for that stuff, the size of divisions within the company is decided on a much higher leve by budgeting plans.

    Last but not least, saying a sentence like "they cant be bothered to fix class skills, so they push you into weapon skills" is filled with implicit assumptions that you cannot verify. You dont know what their intentions are even though they have voiced them on stages of conventions and on these very forums right here in the last couple months.

    What necro skills are fixed? I mean it's great syphon can hit the dragons now. If you would be able to actually use it properly without it spinning your char around wasting a gcd.
    Or when blastbones Grey's out and becomes unusable until you double swap bars.
    As fast as possible to fix these 2 skills that are broken the same way since the first week of PTS Elsweyr. And are still broken the same way like back then.
    2 months and nothing happened. Even though other reps put those bugs forward. Same as many other players.
    How can you not make the 2 main skills of your NEW Class being bugged like this. For that amount of time. Still bugged on the latest iteration on the PTS.

    MA weapons being useless doesn't mean to make it so every single class should use them. As the only mandatory option.

    Maybe it will change 3 months down the line. But many will not wait that long.
    Just thinking of having to use FLURRY because zos can't be bothered to make my class skills just working properly makes me wanna set the game aside.

    What makes it worse, not a single time was there a green post acknowledging the bugs on those 2 skills. Even though they had many opportunities in many threads here on the forums since elsweyr hit pts.

    Your posts come across like you somewhat fanboi zos in every decision they take. If that is not the case, pardon me.

    I don't mind change. But if they can't be bothered to actually fix things before they do so, that is ridiculous.


    My main goal when I joined the program was to achieve a good class balance where as many specs as possible would be desirable to bring into a raid, or any type of group play. Also I wanted classes to feel unique and interesting to play, as in having an identity. When I saw the u23 notes for the first time a month ago, I actually was so frustrated that i thought about leaving the program (and threatened to do so) because after a year, we still haven't achieved anything and it was visible from looking at the notes alone that they would lead to this very situation.

    Raids will still stack necros for the colossus debuff, while all other essential buffs and debuffs are shifted to healers and tanks. When they proposed the nb changes to us back in u22, we told them not to change NB, but to change and improve other classes, yet they still did it, which made me (and others as well) quite angry. So i made a post about it to the devs, and they convinced me that they have goals that try to achieve a better balance after the audit is done.

    I'm not a fanboy whatsoever. If that's how a fanboy behaves, then we must have a different definition of what a fanboy actually is.

    What healers are you referring to? Oh, you mean the ones who got shafted out of the game? You got jokes lol
    I put on my robe and wizard hat
  • Lord_Eomer
    Lord_Eomer
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    pwidsten wrote: »
    As of PTS 5.1.2, the variety available in DPS based builds and play styles is all very homogenized. They're little more than DoT stacking builds centered around non-class abilities that only perform differently based upon the class passives that may or may not provide the group or the target a Major or Minor named buff or debuff.

    Where as I understand clearly that your goal was to make single target ability be more effective to a single target than an AoE ability will be, these changes all but eliminate the diversity among the classes almost entirely. There's zero incentive to run an AoE damage class ability, which means beyond passives, there's zero incentive to even use skill points on class lines. All a DPS class needs to do great single target DPS now, are the guild based skill line abilities and that one or two class abilities that activate the associate passives, if those are even worth it.

    Create some kind of an incentive to run class based AoE abilities such as their damage increasing based on the number of targets they're hitting, or perhaps make the synergies those class AoEs provide be far more enticing to use, knowing that we'd be using them for that reason, despite their dealing less damage.

    Example:
    Degeneration morf of Entropy deals significant damage to a single target, provides Major Sorcery, restores 100 magicka per light or heavy attack and is cheaper to cast than nearly any magicka class ability.

    A class ability should provide the buff and the 100 mana per light attack, even though it does less damage. With this Mage's guild skill built this way, a rather large number of class abilities are essentially useless. This can be said of many of these changes, but this post need not be that long.

    In my opinion, if all the DPS class builds and play styles become so similar that we're building around these no-class abilities the replayability of the game is drastically shortened. The variety in classes and builds are the two biggest reasons ESO is so entertaining to play. The theory crafting was almost endless, especially below the CP cap.

    Now, why would anyone level and outfit another class if they're all just using the same non-class abilities, especially towards the end game/level cap?

    Surprised to see that 1 skill in rotation will break class identity?

    Do you believe that players will use one skill only? there is no such harm to class skills they have their own importance/

    Entropy will now have more use and I believe its a good step!
    Edited by Lord_Eomer on August 1, 2019 1:18PM
  • Ivan04
    Ivan04
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    Rapid Maneuver:
    Reduced the cost of this ability and its morphs to 6885 from 8100 for the 15% Stamina cost reduction standard.
    This ability and its morphs will no longer remove themselves if you take an action, such as healing or damage.
    Reduced the duration of the Major Expedition granted to 8 seconds from 30 seconds at Rank IV. Note it will continue granting Major Gallop for 30 seconds.

    Please consider giving low level character an easy source of long lasting major expedition, so gathering skyshards/lorebooks etc. wouldn't turn into a hellish experience. Major Gallop is seriously insufficient, considering that a significant amount of time picking up skyshards etc. is spent in places where you can't mount. And your horse isn't leveled either. Please don't give in to the leeching crown store tendencies.
    Edited by Ivan04 on July 27, 2019 5:12PM
  • Maxdevil
    Maxdevil
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    I really don’t like this patch
    "Maxdevil knows much, and tells some. Maxdevil knows many things others do not."
    Pc-Na
    Talion Varandil Magtemplar cp 460dps
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Maxdevil wrote: »
    I really don’t like this patch

    It has a lot of great changes, like finally buffing Scalding Rune and giving Destruction Staff a decent ST DoT, as well as making Rearming Trap less clunky to use. I even like the change that multiple people can synergize one orb, so we won't be fighting over synergies as much. These improvements were just accompanied by some changes that I do not understand, like the non-stacking Healing Springs, and the nerfs to make Liquid Lightning, Caltrops and Winter's Revenge weaker than the new Scalding Rune and Soul Splitting Trap.
  • Ivan04
    Ivan04
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    Can we please get an answer regarding Rapid Maneuever nerf @ZOS_Gilliam ? 8 seconds on major expedition instead of 30 is a huge incovenience for the overworld movement, especially considering the amount of time I'm stuck in combat. Sorry if I'm using the wrong thread, but please answer us Gilliam, you're our only hope 🙏
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Changes provided in this patch looks are degrading for PVE dpsing.
    When half of the builds lack spammable and another half lacks execute and all those builds don't use unique class abilities in rotation but do 10% more damage then "classic" builds with execute and spammable and specific class abilities, this all means game moves in wrong direction in terms of PVE dpsing.

    This is justified move that ST dots should do slightly more damage then AOE dots. But when those ST dots become better spammables then actual spammables and better executes then actual executes (due to limited bar space), this is simply wrong.

    Solution - buff instant damage skills, i.e. spammables and executes, decrease damage of ST dots as compensation, to avoid power creep. For classes without execute/spammables don't nerf their class ST dots.
    Restart your router
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Shantu wrote: »
    Honestly, this patch feels like an overload of uninspired number crunching. As a magicka oriented PVE guy, this whole combat direction feels depressing. Yeah, I'm able to match pre-patch dps numbers on a dummy parse, but the pressure to move to a static, non-class, single target DOT rotation without a spammable or executable to maximize dps just feels misguided. My gut reaction is to just accept the dps loss in lieu of a rotation that's more traditional and fun.

    In dungeons and trials where you change targets frequently the dot rotation is definetely weaker cause it takes time to build the damage up. IN sustained single target fights it might look boring, but in the newer trials and dungeons i dont think its actually going to be the best option in lots of places.
    PC EU - CP 1200+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
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    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Wamasel - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror + Bringer of Light
    Nord Warden - Warden - Nord - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

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    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Unparagoned1994
    Unparagoned1994
    Soul Shriven
    What exactly is trying to be accomplished here. Whats with all the off the wall changes. I strongly agree with some of them but others have me thinking what are you guys doing to this game!!! :disappointed:
  • Madrajin
    Madrajin
    OK so I play weird builds but some of the changes here make no sense to me and reduce my damage output by between a third and a quarter. This is a massive nerf and for what?

    (my hybrid AoE lightning tank https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=113858 )

    Pulse Damage AoE
    Pulsed damage AoEs are not DoTs. For it to be a DoT it would hit once and do damage to all those hit over time regardless of whether they stayed within the area of effect. If a target can leave the area and not take any more damage it's not a DoT.

    Forcing this change will also mean altering my champion points to use Thaumaturge which has no constellation synergy with magicka builds.

    Lightning Splash
    Lightning Splash. Damage is reduced by 37%, while the cost is reduced by 14%. Why!? I don't suffer from magicka sustain problems and Lightning Flood is one of my main damage abilities.

    Volatile Familiar
    A damage nerf again, although this is minor 3% in comparison to the other changes.
  • Numerikuu
    Numerikuu
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    2702e35637d160a90585d4765373749d.gif

    I honestly have no words at this point. Not that they're needed, because they're never listened to on PTS feedback anyway lmao.

    The numbers speak for themselves though. They literally weren't joking when they said "We're killing it!" *looks at currently playing on ESO compared to the many other online/multiplayer games on Steam*
  • Pallio
    Pallio
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    Is the intention of this patch to make people buy the DLC to chase the Necro meta, or just to get people to quit the game?
  • Rerum
    Rerum
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    Pallio wrote: »
    Is the intention of this patch to make people buy the DLC to chase the Necro meta, or just to get people to quit the game?

    Both. Need to sell skill lines, need to sell necro. Hardcore players not needed, because content become easier and easier for keep casuals who pay in game much more longer.
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