PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE DPS

Benemime

Some passives adjustments


Some passives are really a disservice to the build customization and diversity, because they kinda force us to ignore skills that are out of our comfort zone, out of the class skill trees and mages guild. (p.s.: I can only talk about magicka skill trees and sorcerer, I don't know about other classes so I can't give my opinion).

For example, if you want to build around Destro skills, you will possibly lose like at least 4~6% of multiplicative bonuses for spell damage and max magicka, if you want to use other skills from other trees, you will lose a lot of bonuses as well.

I'm talking about these passives:

Sorcerer(Storm Calling): Expert Mage: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 1/2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.

Mages Guild: Magicka Controller: Increases your Max Magicka and Magicka Recovery by 1/2% for each Mages Guild ability slotted.

what I suggest:

Sorcerer(Storm Calling): Expert Mage: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 3/6% if a Sorcerer ability is slotted.

Mages Guild: Magicka Controller: Increases your Max Magicka and Magicka Recovery by 3/6% if a Mages Guild ability is slotted.

This kinda goes with the current 3 sorcs/3 mages guild abilities slotted in the bar.

On top of that, we should be given a flat value from Penetrating Magic passive (from Destro Staff skill tree) so we can do the math properly for our build, and we also need the bonus to be aplied to every source of damage we do, not only destro skills:

Penetrating Magic: (With Destruction Staff Equipped) Your Destruction Staff abilities ignore 5/10% of the enemy's Spell Resistance.

to

Penetrating Magic: (With Destruction Staff Equipped) You gain 500/1000 of Spell Penetration.

SirAndy

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

You need to compare in an actual parse or raid setting for it to be valid.

Not true, your interpretation of "valid" is heavily skewed ...

Jodynn

Benemime wrote: »

Some passives adjustments


Some passives are really a disservice to the build customization and diversity, because they kinda force us to ignore skills that are out of our comfort zone, out of the class skill trees and mages guild. (p.s.: I can only talk about magicka skill trees and sorcerer, I don't know about other classes so I can't give my opinion).

For example, if you want to build around Destro skills, you will possibly lose like at least 4~6% of multiplicative bonuses for spell damage and max magicka, if you want to use other skills from other trees, you will lose a lot of bonuses as well.

I'm talking about these passives:

Sorcerer(Storm Calling): Expert Mage: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 1/2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.

Mages Guild: Magicka Controller: Increases your Max Magicka and Magicka Recovery by 1/2% for each Mages Guild ability slotted.

what I suggest:

Sorcerer(Storm Calling): Expert Mage: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 3/6% if a Sorcerer ability is slotted.

Mages Guild: Magicka Controller: Increases your Max Magicka and Magicka Recovery by 3/6% if a Mages Guild ability is slotted.

This kinda goes with the current 3 sorcs/3 mages guild abilities slotted in the bar.

On top of that, we should be given a flat value from Penetrating Magic passive (from Destro Staff skill tree) so we can do the math properly for our build, and we also need the bonus to be aplied to every source of damage we do, not only destro skills:

Penetrating Magic: (With Destruction Staff Equipped) Your Destruction Staff abilities ignore 5/10% of the enemy's Spell Resistance.

to

Penetrating Magic: (With Destruction Staff Equipped) You gain 500/1000 of Spell Penetration.

I can't say much for the storm things but I agree with the mages guild passive, it makes more sense to just allocate IF something is slotted not based on how many are slotted.

Secondly, Penetrating Magic for Destro staff seems interesting, I agree with this, the numbers, 1,000 would be perfect because that's how much I put in CP for PvE which would get me at the optimal pen for raids without having to worry about Erosion, which would then allow me to allocate them in more meaningful ways ( pvp will still be useful )

% pen is super low anytime you do comparisons such as maces in dual wield and 2hander, it's very impractical and not meaningful in pve, in pvp it's niche, in both bleed, crit and more damage is generally favored.

While we are on this subject, why not give 2hander a crit passive too like dual wield has crit for daggers, idk, a spear or something.

Jodynn

SirAndy wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

You need to compare in an actual parse or raid setting for it to be valid.

Not true, your interpretation of "valid" is heavily skewed ...

Using a "skew" standard that people agree with for end-game raiding optimization, whether it's skewed or not, it's practical to go by a standard.

Shantu

After playing daily for 2-1/2 years and spending hundreds of dollars to support this game, since the Nerfmire massacre I have found my enthusiasm on a slow but steady spiral downward. The game itself rarely brings a smile to my face anymore. Now with this current avalanche of "visionary" changes I feel like my days are truly numbered. The devs may have terrific ideas about how to balance the numbers to meet their intellectual vision. But for me, what has been thrown completely out of balance in this endeavor is the most important of all, the ratio of fun to time invested. When these changes go live, and I have no doubt the devs will double down to support their vision despite the pleading and outcry, they will have stripped away far too much fun, and the time invested will not be worth the effort anymore.

Jodynn

Shantu wrote: »

After playing daily for 2-1/2 years and spending hundreds of dollars to support this game, since the Nerfmire massacre I have found my enthusiasm on a slow but steady spiral downward. The game itself rarely brings a smile to my face anymore. Now with this current avalanche of "visionary" changes I feel like my days are truly numbered. The devs may have terrific ideas about how to balance the numbers to meet their intellectual vision. But for me, what has been thrown completely out of balance in this endeavor is the most important of all, the ratio of fun to time invested. When these changes go live, and I have no doubt the devs will double down to support their vision despite the pleading and outcry, they will have stripped away far too much fun, and the time invested will not be worth the effort anymore.

You seem very upset with the changes and some emotion behind your words; but what exactly is bothering you about them, can you give quantitative and qualitative data to represent what your problems are?

JobooAGS

I mainly have slight concerns with races with cost reduction passives and with the cost reduction math changes they are all effectively nerfed especially when you compare them to other races that have different forms of sustain

edit: may have some concerns with soul trap and morphs, but we will see

Somewhere

I think my biggest concern is that, at least in the case of magDK, my own class skills now seem... fairly lackluster compared to these newly buff dots.

Like, take Searing Strike vs Entropy: I can apply Entropy from maximum range, it deals more damage over an identical lifetime, it grants empower when I use it. It costs more resources to cast, but if I go with the magicka return morph, that is negligible. Burning Embers has a huge burst heal at the end, and that is valuable, but it requires me to go into melee range to cast it, that is fairly dangerous. Even though this is about PvE, it goes without saying that moving into melee in PvP is even more dangerous.

Engulfing Flames now feels like a chore to slot since it's so weak. The debuff it grants is worth it, but given how weak it is, you really only want one person running it: probably the tank. That way I am freed up to run Flame Reach: also stronger than my own class dots, and can be applied from maximum range. I understand Engulfing is an AoE and works based off of their 33% less damage 30% more cost rules, but that kind of sucks given it's not even a full AoE. It's a cone, and that's harder to aim and get multiple enemies lined up in. I would probably be less disgruntled if the skill were a true pbAoE and just did a 7m radius or something.

Soul Trap is hilarious because it somehow follows the rules of a "single target dot" despite the fact that a single cast applies itself to 2 (or 3) targets. I am not really sure how that follows, but certainly in both PvP and PvE, the result is the same: most of the time, at least one other target is being hit by this DoT. Does that make this skill a rule breaker? Certainly seems so.

It's just disappointing to see so much homogenization.

Ultimately I think ZOS needs to re-evaluate their rules. At the moment we know they have some "rules" they're applying for their audit: single target dots, spammables, pbAoe, ground based aoe, etc etc. I think they should take range into account as well when factoring this in as well. Make our class skills pop again.

SodanTok

Further perspective from bow/bow:

• Nerf to Volley/Hail and VMA bow had great impact. Loss of about 6k DPS from this ability, but should improve a little with bugfixes (current hail ticks 10 times not 13 times)
• Poison Injection correctly improved DPS by about 1-1.5k
• Changes to lightweight trap make the ability too good to pass on obliterating Tzgovin set faster than Thanos snap, while making difference between barbed and light even worse with barbed offering more DPS and 100% uptime on Minor force even if recasted early once in rotation compared to doing the same with lightweight. Does one morph deserve to be 45% worse just for being ranged? Is that new standard that ranged should be 45% worse than melee?
• Buff to Shadow Silk (caster's) damage remove cast worthiness of Acid Spray on single enemy, since this ability now does more damage (even on bow) for same price while offering synergy (Acid offers nothing). This results in mostly same DPS, but increases gap between melee and ranged, because before this patch there was no good ability like that (pseudo spammable) for melee. On top of melee obviously doing more damage with this ability than bow.
• Nerf to Shadow Silk synergy, which was mostly activated by ranged builds (usually stamina ones) quite clearly affects more bow/bow play in group content than melee ones. Another gap increase.
• DPS buffs to Twin Slashes, Blade Cloak, Stampede, Bleed passive on DW and bleed passive on 2H have no impact on bow/bow. Another gap increase.
• DPS buffs to DoT damage have positive impact on VMA dual wield and no impact on bow/bow. Another gap increase.
• New physical DoT in soul trap being ranged is nice addition to stam ranged arsenal. But difference between melee and range (like more weapon damage or existence of vma dual wield or bow passives having no impact on it) still cause increase in DPS gap.
• Related to all above: Increase of useful, strong or overpowered nonbow abilities pushes out other bow abilities from rotation (like snipe or acid spray) which are unaffected by bow passives. Resulting in gap increase and minor snipe buff having no impact.

In summary: With all abilities being put to standards, bow weaknesses come to full light with less weapon damage than melee, 2 passives that increase in potency the more bow abilities are used, one passive that has no impact on damage, one passive that is flat out 50% as effective as same passive on melee (5% crit on bow vs 5% crit per dagger on DW) and lack of 2nd range weapon that would open access to more ranged skills.

Jodynn

Somewhere wrote: »

I think my biggest concern is that, at least in the case of magDK, my own class skills now seem... fairly lackluster compared to these newly buff dots.

Like, take Searing Strike vs Entropy: I can apply Entropy from maximum range, it deals more damage over an identical lifetime, it grants empower when I use it. It costs more resources to cast, but if I go with the magicka return morph, that is negligible. Burning Embers has a huge burst heal at the end, and that is valuable, but it requires me to go into melee range to cast it, that is fairly dangerous. Even though this is about PvE, it goes without saying that moving into melee in PvP is even more dangerous.

Engulfing Flames now feels like a chore to slot since it's so weak. The debuff it grants is worth it, but given how weak it is, you really only want one person running it: probably the tank. That way I am freed up to run Flame Reach: also stronger than my own class dots, and can be applied from maximum range. I understand Engulfing is an AoE and works based off of their 33% less damage 30% more cost rules, but that kind of sucks given it's not even a full AoE. It's a cone, and that's harder to aim and get multiple enemies lined up in. I would probably be less disgruntled if the skill were a true pbAoE and just did a 7m radius or something.

Soul Trap is hilarious because it somehow follows the rules of a "single target dot" despite the fact that a single cast applies itself to 2 (or 3) targets. I am not really sure how that follows, but certainly in both PvP and PvE, the result is the same: most of the time, at least one other target is being hit by this DoT. Does that make this skill a rule breaker? Certainly seems so.

It's just disappointing to see so much homogenization.

Ultimately I think ZOS needs to re-evaluate their rules. At the moment we know they have some "rules" they're applying for their audit: single target dots, spammables, pbAoe, ground based aoe, etc etc. I think they should take range into account as well when factoring this in as well. Make our class skills pop again.

Have you tested these changes personally?

Flame reach hurts the same as embers just embers has more DD damage and flame reach has more DoT damage, Degeneration yes gives empower but burning embers applies burning, gives resources ( more than degen ) with combustion, gives a stack of seething, the snare and then the burst heal ofc.

Engulfing is still great for bursting down trash and gives stacks of seething fury and applies burning and the 10% debuff and the snare, however the cone can be super annoying at times I have to agree.

Personally I find myself not using flame reach or soul trap because those two provide fundamental skills that work with DKs passives, but degeneration is a great tool for everyone and I think it should stay the as is.

But, I will say the eruption hit is huge, it cost 5.1k or so after reduction from light armour and it does less damage than unstable blockades dot alone, which also has a burst at the end, which makes eruption feel pretty.. lackluster at best.

More concerned with not having an execute in PvE than the other aforementioned.

Somewhere

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

I think my biggest concern is that, at least in the case of magDK, my own class skills now seem... fairly lackluster compared to these newly buff dots.

Like, take Searing Strike vs Entropy: I can apply Entropy from maximum range, it deals more damage over an identical lifetime, it grants empower when I use it. It costs more resources to cast, but if I go with the magicka return morph, that is negligible. Burning Embers has a huge burst heal at the end, and that is valuable, but it requires me to go into melee range to cast it, that is fairly dangerous. Even though this is about PvE, it goes without saying that moving into melee in PvP is even more dangerous.

Engulfing Flames now feels like a chore to slot since it's so weak. The debuff it grants is worth it, but given how weak it is, you really only want one person running it: probably the tank. That way I am freed up to run Flame Reach: also stronger than my own class dots, and can be applied from maximum range. I understand Engulfing is an AoE and works based off of their 33% less damage 30% more cost rules, but that kind of sucks given it's not even a full AoE. It's a cone, and that's harder to aim and get multiple enemies lined up in. I would probably be less disgruntled if the skill were a true pbAoE and just did a 7m radius or something.

Soul Trap is hilarious because it somehow follows the rules of a "single target dot" despite the fact that a single cast applies itself to 2 (or 3) targets. I am not really sure how that follows, but certainly in both PvP and PvE, the result is the same: most of the time, at least one other target is being hit by this DoT. Does that make this skill a rule breaker? Certainly seems so.

It's just disappointing to see so much homogenization.

Ultimately I think ZOS needs to re-evaluate their rules. At the moment we know they have some "rules" they're applying for their audit: single target dots, spammables, pbAoe, ground based aoe, etc etc. I think they should take range into account as well when factoring this in as well. Make our class skills pop again.

Have you tested these changes personally?

Flame reach hurts the same as embers just embers has more DD damage and flame reach has more DoT damage, Degeneration yes gives empower but burning embers applies burning, gives resources ( more than degen ) with combustion, gives a stack of seething, the snare and then the burst heal ofc.

Engulfing is still great for bursting down trash and gives stacks of seething fury and applies burning and the 10% debuff and the snare, however the cone can be super annoying at times I have to agree.

Personally I find myself not using flame reach or soul trap because those two provide fundamental skills that work with DKs passives, but degeneration is a great tool for everyone and I think it should stay the as is.

But, I will say the eruption hit is huge, it cost 5.1k or so after reduction from light armour and it does less damage than unstable blockades dot alone, which also has a burst at the end, which makes eruption feel pretty.. lackluster at best.

More concerned with not having an execute in PvE than the other aforementioned.

I have tested them personally: I intentionally left Flame Reach out because out of the 3 buffed skills, it's really the only one imo that isn't overtuned. It does a lot of damage from max range: that's it. The other 2 I think are more egregious examples: more damage, and utility to boot.

Eruption is very egregious though I for sure agree. Eruption has a huge magicka drain, like definitely too high for what its doing imo.

GeorgeBlack

Move away from DW/Bow ONLY for PvE and you will win over many people

Ozby

eso_lytw8 wrote: »

Rerum wrote: »

Hello.
I see no reason in this huge nerf of class dots and such huge buff of common skilline's dot. For mag chars with current changes no point to lvl class dots, just pick up destructive touch, soul trap, entropy and you are fine. Basically mag chars become like stam chars whos were forced to use caltrops/hail and nothing more.
So any of devs have any good arguments and reasons to make all mag classes the same without real difference? I'm that kind of people that stick to gameplay mostly and less to meta(but still around) and i want to play magdk/magsorc and etc and not magicka char 1/2/3.
What i see from pts it's that meta for mag classes going to be stacking entropy+touch+soul trap+aoes(no spammable) and new set that gives you dmg per dot. Class difference just killed. It's like if you will eat different food but every of this food will have same taste.

This is how you reach balance in PVP, make the non class skills the ones people use, remove the differences in the class skills then all you need to do is do the same to the passives which is coming next major update. Once the classes have nothing unique they will be balanced for PVP. You can't complain about another classes benefit if it doesn't exist. Taken to the extreme this will achieve perfect PVP balance, but at the loss of all class uniqueness.

Because people only play PVP in this game ay?

Ozby

I think using elemental clench/reach is going to be very annoying for melee players in PVE.

LadyLethalla

Everrsor wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Elsweyr World Boss solo fight with High Elf Mag Pet Sorc

The logs below show a ONE bar fight, i didn't use my back bar to buff at all, just spamming the "easy" button skills since Pet Sorc is "easy mode" and does not require any player skill:

Skills:
- Hardened Ward
- Unstable Wall of Storms
- Liquid Lightning

Pets:
- Clannfear

Ultimate:
- Thunderous Rage

Monster:
- Infernal Guardian

LIVE


PTS



Summary:

- "Tri Focus" is completely missing on the PTS (That's a 500k loss right there)
- "Liquid Lightning" lost 500k of damage
- "Thunderous Rage" lost 200k of damage
- "Unstable Wall of Storms" gained 100k of damage (because it was cast more often)
- "Unstable Wall of Storms" critical gained 400k of damage (because it was cast more often)
- "Infernal Guardian" gained 150k of damage (because it had more procs = more shield casts)
- Overall DPS went down from 40k on live to 30k on pts
- Live needs far fewer heavy attacks to sustain
- TTK went up from 2:45 on live to 3:28 on pts
- I had to heal more on the pts (using the Clannfear)
- DoTs are most notably weaker, trash mobs take much longer to go down
- Shields felt OK-ish
- The Clannfear seemed to die a lot more on the pts (?)

Agree,i test petsorc yesterday bi managed to solo some wb and did a short run of vma,pets die a lot dps went down about 8-10k shield barely last now

^^ THIS is why I'll be taking a break, possibly permanently. If my petsorc can't survive in VMA, what hope do I have of any of my other characters getting through it?
And yes, VMA has been my main focus for quite a long time. Mostly on petsorc. I have done it on a non-pet sorc and my main, a magblade, but those experiences were far too painful to contemplate ever repeating.

Damage down 30% + survivability down a significant % = frustration goes up by 100% or more = why bother any more. @ZOS_BrianWheeler

At least I'll save money on my sub and have time for another, unnameable series. Maybe I should be thanking ZOS.

washbern

after reading all these comments i think that the biggest problem with this patch is the nerf of class abilities. I am 1000% for buffing the useless guild / weapon abilities that no one ever used. but I am very much against homogenization. In it's current state, the game is playable, but people choose classes to play said classes. There should be variety in the game play, in the feel of each class.

I look at stamina class builds: 75%-90% of the build is weapon skills and guild skills
Magicka was different because all the guild skills and weapon skills sucked. Now, they nerfed the crap out of class skills, rightfully buffed the other skills so Mag classes have the same stupid 75%-90% weapon and guild skill builds.

Now if i pick a class i end up picking it for a few spare passives and maybe 1 or 2 active skills rather the entire package.

virtus753

Beyond the issue of the bug fix for the duration of Endless Hail, the nerf to the vMA bow itself is very questionable to me. I’m not sure whether this belongs in the bug thread - the developer’s comment is not clear as to whether the bow itself was meant to maintain its current effectiveness or whether it was to take something of a nerf albeit with partial compensation. As has been pointed out in an individual thread on the subject, though, the stacking bonus portion of the bow’s effect should be quadrupled rather than doubled in order to maintain its current effectiveness on Live over the newly halved number of ticks. As it stands on the PTS now it seems that the stacking bonus - while just about doubled from Live - is still only half of what it should be, and the vMA bow will thus add only about 1-1.5k dps (once the duration of Hail is fixed) compared to a non-vMA bow. That’s significantly less than the benefit it adds now on Live.

Please see the individual thread for a more detailed explanation on the math. I wanted to note it here because this has been designated as a thread that developers will be actively checking.

tthhyyss

Since Zos cares soooooooo much what we players think and want, just put up a poll "Do you want the nerfs, yes or no" and let us decide then....

Masel

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

I need to do some more testing before I can say anything definitive and look at what others are getting, but at the moment stamcro is hitting about 100k+ dps on the iron atro, magcro is hitting 91k+ and the rest of mag are 70k-84k atm. What sucks is there is no room for class abilities so right now mag brings almost 0 utility EXCEPT the magcro (who will likely be put into support sets like Martial Knowledge and Ze'en to fuel the stamcro overlords). It's actually pretty detrimental to run magicka atm and if our groups theory crafting is right, having stam in pseudo-dps setups (dps/healer hybrid) will outweigh the benefits of running healers at all with the echoing vigor changes. There would possibly be one mag dps for orbs/springs, but orbs may get relegated to the tank anyways now.

All mag classes can do over 90k, so this is actually not true.

If you want some proof:

https://youtu.be/rhqMI_wvdIs

Faulgor

washbern wrote: »

after reading all these comments i think that the biggest problem with this patch is the nerf of class abilities.

Class abilities weren't nerfed in general though. AoE DoTs were. The newly buffed single target DoTs aren't displacing class skills in particular (although in some cases they might be preferable to class AoE DoTs), but spammables. And there haven't been that many class-based spammables to begin with (Whip, Swallow Soul, Cliffracer, Flame Skull), most use Force Pulse or Elemental Weapon.

Spammables vs single target DoTs have to be balanced to avoid homogenization. I think it's cool that we can now have magicka builds that are entirely DoT-based, but if that becomes mandatory, it's going to suck.

VoidParticle

Dro'Zakar's Claws & Bleed Procs

With changes to bleeding and the new set Dro'zakar's Claws the idea is that you want to stack bleeds.
Bleed in the past has been used as a means of pressure on builds mostly doing direct damage.
Bleeding in this patch is now being more utilized by DoT builds for PVE.

I think Twin Blade and Blunt for DW procs enough between all of it's abilities, I do not however think Heavy Weapons Bleed procs enough. 2H has no "spammable" making it's 16% to activate still suck. Bleeds still do not have increased proc chance with the charged trait (as they are not a status effect), and with this new set in mind almost all other bleeds have reliable uptime.

If you don't want to change the proc chance for Heavy Weapons bleed then I propose that Stampede allow it's DoT to proc bleeds. It's the only ability 2handers have that gives them a semi "spammable" to proc a bleed.

Trying to utilize Dro'zakar's Claws for a bleed build is leaving me with a low end of 15% uptime to a high end of 40% uptime on Heavy Weapon Bleed. With the nerfs to PVP bleeds, but buffs to PVE bleeds I don't think it's unfair to ask for a better proc chance either between skill synergy or straight up increased proc chance for this bleed. (it also makes your new set more viable and less unreliable).

tldr; Changes to bleeds and new Dro'zakar set warrant a better passive 2H Axe Bleed chance. The difference between skills available for DW vs 2H means the proc chance between the 2 weapon lines (8% vs 16%) isn't balanced. Spammables dramatically make applying them easier and I believe the balance would be in 2H's Stampede changes giving 2H a semi-spammable to proc this bleed. (rather than increasing bleed proc chance)

VoidParticle

slofwnd wrote: »

With the latest changes to Caltrops there is now easily accessible source of AOE fracture for all stam toons. However there's no comparable source of AOE breach.

Necromancer's Boneyard ability has a morph that gives fracture and breach and it's AOE.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

slofwnd wrote: »

With the latest changes to Caltrops there is now easily accessible source of AOE fracture for all stam toons. However there's no comparable source of AOE breach.

Necromancer's Boneyard ability has a morph that gives fracture and breach and it's AOE.

And deep fissure on wardens.

VoidParticle

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why is Barbed Trap so much better than Light Weight Beast Trap?

Barbed Trap does almost double the damage and almost double the uptime on Minor force, with only 7% more cost. Should range deal 50% less damage than Melee? That's not balanced at all.

Barbed:

LightWeight:

This means ranged needs to commit almost twice the resources, as well as an additional cast to get similar dps. While already having lower damage due to weapon damage.

Why would anyone ever choose the LightWeight morph unless they just want to punish themselves?

When you double the damage and length you are not changing actual DPS. You basically only need to cast this ability 1/2 as often. Would be better if it went to 20 seconds. There is no HUGE disparity between these morphs like you're thinking.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why is Barbed Trap so much better than Light Weight Beast Trap?

Barbed Trap does almost double the damage and almost double the uptime on Minor force, with only 7% more cost. Should range deal 50% less damage than Melee? That's not balanced at all.

Barbed:

LightWeight:

This means ranged needs to commit almost twice the resources, as well as an additional cast to get similar dps. While already having lower damage due to weapon damage.

Why would anyone ever choose the LightWeight morph unless they just want to punish themselves?

When you double the damage and length you are not changing actual DPS. You basically only need to cast this ability 1/2 as often. Would be better if it went to 20 seconds. There is no HUGE disparity between these morphs like you're thinking.

the skill takes 1.5 seconds to arm and be able to do damage, for all intents and purposes, you are looking at 12 seconds for lightweight trap and 20 seconds for barbed. .

SodanTok

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why is Barbed Trap so much better than Light Weight Beast Trap?

Barbed Trap does almost double the damage and almost double the uptime on Minor force, with only 7% more cost. Should range deal 50% less damage than Melee? That's not balanced at all.

Barbed:

LightWeight:

This means ranged needs to commit almost twice the resources, as well as an additional cast to get similar dps. While already having lower damage due to weapon damage.

Why would anyone ever choose the LightWeight morph unless they just want to punish themselves?

When you double the damage and length you are not changing actual DPS. You basically only need to cast this ability 1/2 as often. Would be better if it went to 20 seconds. There is no HUGE disparity between these morphs like you're thinking.

Casting something every 10s for same dps and buff as is casting something every 18s is huge disparity already. Fact that 10s is less than usual stamina rotation while 18s allows for early recasting is just cherry on top making one morph much much better.

Toc de Malsvi

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why is Barbed Trap so much better than Light Weight Beast Trap?

Barbed Trap does almost double the damage and almost double the uptime on Minor force, with only 7% more cost. Should range deal 50% less damage than Melee? That's not balanced at all.

Barbed:

LightWeight:

This means ranged needs to commit almost twice the resources, as well as an additional cast to get similar dps. While already having lower damage due to weapon damage.

Why would anyone ever choose the LightWeight morph unless they just want to punish themselves?

When you double the damage and length you are not changing actual DPS. You basically only need to cast this ability 1/2 as often. Would be better if it went to 20 seconds. There is no HUGE disparity between these morphs like you're thinking.

Why don't you go ahead and cast it twice with the ranged morph. I'll use the melee morph and casts once then use Snipe/SubAssault/ShadowSilk etc. We will see who has more dps?

Seriously you need to think that over and understand why spending 5k stam over two global CD for the same benefit as someone spending 2.7k stam with one global CD is much worse.

Toc de Malsvi

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Why is Barbed Trap so much better than Light Weight Beast Trap?

Barbed Trap does almost double the damage and almost double the uptime on Minor force, with only 7% more cost. Should range deal 50% less damage than Melee? That's not balanced at all.

Barbed:

LightWeight:

This means ranged needs to commit almost twice the resources, as well as an additional cast to get similar dps. While already having lower damage due to weapon damage.

Why would anyone ever choose the LightWeight morph unless they just want to punish themselves?

When you double the damage and length you are not changing actual DPS. You basically only need to cast this ability 1/2 as often. Would be better if it went to 20 seconds. There is no HUGE disparity between these morphs like you're thinking.

For reference Lethal Arrow is around 2k stam cost on my DK. Lightweight Trap is pulling 4k dps on my parses. Average Lethal Arrow hit is 42k. Using Barbed Trap I can use a Lethal Arrow cast in place of Barbed trap and gain 42k per 18 seconds, or 2.5k per second. It doesn't cost me anymore stam than the person using Lighweight Trap and I gain 50% more dps cause I can use an additional skill there that I couldn't otherwise.

VoidParticle

SodanTok wrote: »

Further perspective from bow/bow:

• DPS buffs to DoT damage have positive impact on VMA dual wield and no impact on bow/bow. Another gap increase.
• New physical DoT in soul trap being ranged is nice addition to stam ranged arsenal. But difference between melee and range (like more weapon damage or existence of vma dual wield or bow passives having no impact on it) still cause increase in DPS gap.

You might wanna test that again. I tried the other day and saw dps increase when using vMA Dual Wield and new Soul Trap.

The ability behaves in a weird way, I'm pretty sure it's single target but "grabs" another target near the one you're targeting.

Toc de Malsvi

michael217hillnub18_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Further perspective from bow/bow:

• DPS buffs to DoT damage have positive impact on VMA dual wield and no impact on bow/bow. Another gap increase.
• New physical DoT in soul trap being ranged is nice addition to stam ranged arsenal. But difference between melee and range (like more weapon damage or existence of vma dual wield or bow passives having no impact on it) still cause increase in DPS gap.

You might wanna test that again. I tried the other day and saw dps increase when using vMA Dual Wield and new Soul Trap.

The ability behaves in a weird way, I'm pretty sure it's single target but "grabs" another target near the one you're targeting.

I don't think you understood that post. Soul Trap is new ranged Dot, which seems nice for Bow/Bow archer playstyle. However it is available to melee which already have higher weapon damage so it will do more, VMA DW buffs it further, and primary bow passives either don't affect SoulTrap(Hawkeye) or are weaker than DW passives(Accuracy).


A separate issue highlighted by this is how arena weapon sets buff weapon skills. But VMA DW buffs skills outside the weapon line. Causing it to overperform with the scaling of single target dots.