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PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE DPS

  • Emkay333
    Emkay333
    ✭✭
    Emkay333 wrote: »
    I need to do some more testing before I can say anything definitive and look at what others are getting, but at the moment stamcro is hitting about 100k+ dps on the iron atro, magcro is hitting 91k+ and the rest of mag are 70k-84k atm. What sucks is there is no room for class abilities so right now mag brings almost 0 utility EXCEPT the magcro (who will likely be put into support sets like Martial Knowledge and Ze'en to fuel the stamcro overlords). It's actually pretty detrimental to run magicka atm and if our groups theory crafting is right, having stam in pseudo-dps setups (dps/healer hybrid) will outweigh the benefits of running healers at all with the echoing vigor changes. There would possibly be one mag dps for orbs/springs, but orbs may get relegated to the tank anyways now.

    I've seen two people repeat this claim, but no videos or parses. Care to provide some evidence for us to peruse? I'm not saying it wasn't done, but I'd like to see what was run and what skill combinations etc.

    Really the biggest thing is Necromancer being the exclusive source of Major Vulnerability, which is an overall 30% boost to damage on the inflicted target. No other class has this, and it favors having nearly exclusive necromancer dps to have the highest uptimes on this overpowered debuff.

    After looking at some more of the necromancer abilities, being able to provide yourself with your own synergy is another massive advantage that no other class has, considering the huge nerfs to healing orbs.

    Who would have thunk that giving the strongest debuff in the game to only one class would create balance issues?

    Exactly. Not sure what they could do TO balance it, maybe reduce the power of major vuln to like 15%? Even at that it's still a unique debuff you can only get from Necromaner's ult. It'd have to be reworked, as thats all that ultimate does is apply that debuff
  • Skjaldbjorn
    Skjaldbjorn
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    After testing several classes in a multitude of different setups, Stamdens are just...not good. They went from a strong 2nd/3rd to probably only ahead of Stamplar. Why this change? No clue. That small buff to the Warden passive brought them in line, and you just immediately trash it. Wardens were fine.

    I tested a lot with a two-handed Stam Sorc which brutally outperformed my Stamden in every meaningful way. I've mained Stamden since Morrowind. I've tried so hard not to give up on the class, but while you buff Necros through the roof, let Nightblades dominate the meta or 12-14 months and constantly tinker with everyone, when you FINALLY manage to get it right and have Stamdens in a good place, you immediately revert it.

    It's just disappointing at this stage. Heart-breaking. Guess i'm maining a stam sorc. I refuse to bend to this meta enforcement garbage for Stamcros. I'll deal with being lower DPS. This is garbage.
  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
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    I need to do some more testing before I can say anything definitive and look at what others are getting, but at the moment stamcro is hitting about 100k+ dps on the iron atro, magcro is hitting 91k+ and the rest of mag are 70k-84k atm. What sucks is there is no room for class abilities so right now mag brings almost 0 utility EXCEPT the magcro (who will likely be put into support sets like Martial Knowledge and Ze'en to fuel the stamcro overlords). It's actually pretty detrimental to run magicka atm and if our groups theory crafting is right, having stam in pseudo-dps setups (dps/healer hybrid) will outweigh the benefits of running healers at all with the echoing vigor changes. There would possibly be one mag dps for orbs/springs, but orbs may get relegated to the tank anyways now.

    I've seen two people repeat this claim, but no videos or parses. Care to provide some evidence for us to peruse? I'm not saying it wasn't done, but I'd like to see what was run and what skill combinations etc.

    ecgmgucbv61s.png
    One of my guild mates right here with the stamcro


    Magcro:
    xtje19and6r0.png


    Tbf, magsorc is getting up there close to about 90k now, but it provides no where near the utility a magcro does ntm aoe dps and such.....
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 9, 2019 5:16AM
  • wills43b14_ESO
    wills43b14_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Stam dps will likely still have a huge trash advantage over mag and the stamcro parses have gone up since then I believe. In short: play stam and add in 1-2 magcros to wear the debuff sets for most trials. Maybe for vCR you could argue a few magcros, a few magsorcs, and a few magplars for heals w/ ritual.
    Edited by wills43b14_ESO on July 9, 2019 5:20AM
  • Everrsor
    Everrsor
    SirAndy wrote: »
    Elsweyr World Boss solo fight with High Elf Mag Pet Sorc

    The logs below show a ONE bar fight, i didn't use my back bar to buff at all, just spamming the "easy" button skills since Pet Sorc is "easy mode" and does not require any player skill:

    Skills:
    - Hardened Ward
    - Unstable Wall of Storms
    - Liquid Lightning

    Pets:
    - Clannfear

    Ultimate:
    - Thunderous Rage

    Monster:
    - Infernal Guardian

    LIVE
    post-2-1562625291.png

    PTS
    post-2-1562617775.png


    Summary:

    - "Tri Focus" is completely missing on the PTS (That's a 500k loss right there)
    - "Liquid Lightning" lost 500k of damage
    - "Thunderous Rage" lost 200k of damage
    - "Unstable Wall of Storms" gained 100k of damage (because it was cast more often)
    - "Unstable Wall of Storms" critical gained 400k of damage (because it was cast more often)
    - "Infernal Guardian" gained 150k of damage (because it had more procs = more shield casts)
    - Overall DPS went down from 40k on live to 30k on pts
    - Live needs far fewer heavy attacks to sustain
    - TTK went up from 2:45 on live to 3:28 on pts
    - I had to heal more on the pts (using the Clannfear)
    - DoTs are most notably weaker, trash mobs take much longer to go down
    - Shields felt OK-ish
    - The Clannfear seemed to die a lot more on the pts (?)

    popcorn.gif

    Agree,i test petsorc yesterday bi managed to solo some wb and did a short run of vma,pets die a lot dps went down about 8-10k shield barely last now
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    Bow skill's Volley and Arrow Barrage has too short duration.
    Why is Arrow Barrage 8 sec and Endless Hail is 12 sec?
    This disparity is very bad.
    Volley and Arrow Barrage should change the duration to 10 sec.
    Edited by master_vanargand on July 9, 2019 6:56AM
  • master_vanargand
    master_vanargand
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    Why is Barbed Trap duration for 18 sec?
    I can not understand the intention...18 sec is very strange.
    Duration of Barbed Trap should be changed to 20 sec.
    If it is 20 sec, skill rotation becomes beautiful.
  • Alienoutlaw
    Alienoutlaw
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    well after an initial run up to 2nd boss in fungal grotto apart from the drop in resources from bloody mara nerf im not really seeing that much difference in performance if im honest, i will record both live and PTS runs later and post them for your info (pet sorc testing with EXACT same build as i use now)
  • SaucyMcSauceface
    SaucyMcSauceface
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    The hit to caltrops looks like it can be replaced with deadly cloak, although the restriction to the dw bar makes it a little awkward, but Hail has just seen a straight out nerf from live. Even with the VMA bow, which is supposed to account for the nerf, it is still well behind live.
  • Tharonil
    Tharonil
    ✭✭
    The new "rally" is really hard for dd's. Vigor is so strong now for overland pve and rally can't not keep up with it.
    Is the heal over time remove really necessary?
  • SaucyMcSauceface
    SaucyMcSauceface
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    As noted elsewhere, endless hail is bugged at the moment. Rather than the 13 ticks it should get at rank 4, it is only hitting 10 times. With the VMA bow, this results in a huge dps drop.
  • darthgummibear_ESO
    darthgummibear_ESO
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    As noted elsewhere, endless hail is bugged at the moment. Rather than the 13 ticks it should get at rank 4, it is only hitting 10 times. With the VMA bow, this results in a huge dps drop.

    So on top of the nerf, the skill isn't even functioning properly?
  • Anhedonie
    Anhedonie
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    Blastbones seems to no longer freeze in confusion. Still, if you cast Blastbones and turn around, instead of a leap Blastbones will run after the target till the duration expires instead of leaping instantly.
    Also, overall mechanic is terrible. Blastbones should leap to the target from 28 range instantly. It will make ranged playstyle actually viable and we won't have to deal with AI.
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • Azurrath
    Azurrath
    Soul Shriven
    Flame of Oblivion now has a cast time (somewhere around 0.5s, like the crystal fragment before fix) now but the skill's description says it's an instant cast ability, is it intended or just a bug?
  • Transairion
    Transairion
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    Exactly. Not sure what they could do TO balance it, maybe reduce the power of major vuln to like 15%? Even at that it's still a unique debuff you can only get from Necromaner's ult. It'd have to be reworked, as thats all that ultimate does is apply that debuff

    The only way to balance it now it exists would be to add it to other sources (IE gear set/s) so any class can bring it to the table, rather than being exclusive to Necromancer (meaning full Necromancer Trials).

    The set just has to have a similar cooldown period to Necro Ult and we're good, no?
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Exactly. Not sure what they could do TO balance it, maybe reduce the power of major vuln to like 15%? Even at that it's still a unique debuff you can only get from Necromaner's ult. It'd have to be reworked, as thats all that ultimate does is apply that debuff

    The only way to balance it now it exists would be to add it to other sources (IE gear set/s) so any class can bring it to the table, rather than being exclusive to Necromancer (meaning full Necromancer Trials).

    The set just has to have a similar cooldown period to Necro Ult and we're good, no?

    Necros have the advantage of having that set built into them and being able to wear two other five piece sets while at it. Non-necro DDs will have to nerf themselves by sacrificing a five piece, and the more uptime on vulnerability group wants, the more DDs would have to make the sacrifice. Or... group can be packed with necros with no trade-off.
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    As far as ive seen on my toons:

    Templar magicka. Not many changes but damage nerfs on skills. Will probably to switch to general skills. Interesting Eclipse buff.

    Sorcerer magicka. Devastating. Sorcerer using pets have lost DPS by a good margin. Matriarch nerf, AOE dot nerf also hurts alot due most petsorc skills are in that category. I didn´t use much Shields but now that i will be forced to use, ive noticed its higher cost, around 600 more magicka, to be unaceptable. Shields also protect less. So with no heals, bad shields, and horrible sustain, Sorcerer DPS is much worse than before patch. Considering that DPS output was already below Stamina classes, i feel the nerf is making me wanting less to play Sorc, and more my other toons. Will probably need to switch to Stamina or use general skills like Trap Soul or Entropy.

    Warden stamina. New vigor rocks. Imho, it´s even unbalanced.

    Necro stamina. Still not mastering the class, but new buffs are great, very welcomed. It will be even better probably than NB for max damage.
    Edited by Saril_Durzam on July 9, 2019 2:00PM
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    The Twilight Matriarch nerf is devastating. Pets consume two skillbar slots; they SHOULD be twice as beneficial as other uses for those slots.

    The number of slots an ability takes up shouldn't reflect the benefit directly. If that's true, I'd love an ability that takes up all 12 slots and is 12 times as effective. I'd argue that the correct fix for that particular issue would be to reduce the number of slots it requires down to 1.

    That would be fine too. But spending two skill bar slots on a good healing skill plus a passive DPS boost is surely a fair value for the slots. Obviously, people can have their views as to the proper magnitude of the DPS boost.
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    The Twilight Matriarch nerf is devastating. Pets consume two skillbar slots; they SHOULD be twice as beneficial as other uses for those slots.

    The number of slots an ability takes up shouldn't reflect the benefit directly. If that's true, I'd love an ability that takes up all 12 slots and is 12 times as effective. I'd argue that the correct fix for that particular issue would be to reduce the number of slots it requires down to 1.

    That would be fine too. But spending two skill bar slots on a good healing skill plus a passive DPS boost is surely a fair value for the slots. Obviously, people can have their views as to the proper magnitude of the DPS boost.

    Let´s say Matriarch heal is similar to BoL. If it takes one more slot, i understand it has to give something more. As you said, anyone can have its own view on how much it gives.

    Every class has awesome skills. Looks unfair to just point one skill if you dont see the whole picture. Are petsorcs dominating PvE or PvP? If so, how could we tone them down? That´s the question. Aren´t they dominating? Well, then i´m sure there should be other places to check around for the nerfing bat.
  • OnThaLoose
    OnThaLoose
    ✭✭✭
    So if the goal here was to reduce aoe dps (for whatever reason, probably freakin pvp) or to combat power creep, then why the eff did they buff soul trap an degeneration so much? do they not want our builds to have any variety?? this is getting absurd. Sounds to me like they want everyone using the same damn skills so its easier for them to balance.

    Magplars lost 25-30~% dps and sorcs got hit hard af, but of course stamcro still hitting 100k on iron atro, while magplar over here stuggling to hit 70k. Seems logical.
    Not.

    This is worse then the sustain nerf of morrowind =/
  • SidraWillowsky
    SidraWillowsky
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    SirAndy wrote: »
    One of the reasons i went with that setup and a world boss instead of a dummy was because i wanted to test this in a real world scenario where one fights solo and has to deal with ads and trash mobs and mechanics and blocking and dodging and healing.
    You know, the stuff that happens when you run solo.

    I just redid the same test using a target dummy and the difference in dps is indeed smaller there (percentage wise) which would indicate that reduced DoT damage has less of an effect on a single target as it has on multiple targets combined.
    Which makes sense, the trash/ads certainly took a lot longer to burn down in the world boss test on the pts.

    Anyways, i'm sure the top raid groups have already found a way to turn all this into a buff ...
    dry.gif

    That's really smart and I'm an idiot for questioning it now that you've explained it... my target dummy heavy hitter is proving to be at the bottom of my toons when it comes to solo play.

    Your comments on the test dummy confirm my suspicions that we seem to be being pushed toward more single-target play styles, and I don't really understand the reasoning behind that...

    Edited by SidraWillowsky on July 9, 2019 1:22PM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    ✭✭✭
    (I did not know exactly where to post it, as it is general PvE / PvP feedback, as the issue I want to discuss is common and affect both PvE & PvP).

    Some initial feedback regarding Werewolf changes. There are some serious issues I would like to point out that should be looked in to, mostly concerning Pack Leader morph changes.

    I do understand that most of those changes were done because of issues this morph was causing in PvP. However, changes also affect PvE greatly. The main problem is that this morph was mainly picked because of wolf pets, that could “tank” DMG. This made the morph useful when facing difficult fights or dangerous enemies. Basically speaking, this morph is primarily picked as an ultimate of choice to be able to do more challenging Solo (or group) PvE content.

    Serious pain-points:

    1. Untargateble pets – inability to tank DMG & agro mobs.
    This means that off-tanking DMG in PvE is now gone. Pets Won’t be able to agro enemies and as a result the whole reason to even consider picking this morph for Solo or Group PvE is now gone. Wolf pets simply won’t be able to “tank” DMG.
    2. Utility offered by this morph is far too weak & unreliable.
    Since pets will be the one that will apply the de-buff (minor maim & snare), it will be VERY difficult to apply the de-buff where it is needed. Pets are steered by AI, and the AI is more or less “Derpy” or just Dumb. Pets may or may not attack enemy. Also “Pet control” players have is very limited. At best those pets will be able to de-buff 2 enemies, applying de-buff over & over to the same enemy (2 at best, since you have 2 wolf pets). This means that the effective up-time of this de-buff is very low, almost close to nothing (as pets wont simply switch target to de-buff another one). Also pets will have significantly less DMG which means that they will never be able to kill a mob on their own.

    Another issues is Snare. From PvE perspective, it is close to useless as Bosses are simply immune to snares. Also, there is snare immunity if you have been snared previously. So in a scenario mentioned above, when those pets will de-buff one enemy over & over it means that snare de-buff will simply be wasted 90% of times.
    3. Lack of DMG, Bleed DMG and AOE DMG on heavy attacks & very weak compensation.
    Compared to other morph (Werewolf Berserker) the Pack Leader morph will stay WAY behind in terms of DMG potential across the board. Utility (mentioned above) has a serious issues and it is far too weak to compensate the huge lack of DMG Pack Leader will now have.
    4. PvP wise, pets will have very little counter play.
    Since Pets will be untargetable and unkillable, There will be no way to avoid the minor maim de-buff and snare de-buff. The only counter play I see is roll-dodge mechanics, but for many builds (magicka ones especially) that is far too little.
    5. Almost no use-case.
    All factors combined will cause this morph to disappear. Not only from PvP but from PvE too. There simply won’t be a reason good enough for any one do decide to use Pack Leader morph. Berserker Werewolf, despite numerous Werewolf nerfs looks far superior in every possible scenario, role or type of content.

    Suggestion and ideas:

    If Pack Leader is supposed to be a Utility / Support morph (as PTS developer comment suggest), it will need far more utility than it offers now.

    - Adding a Tanut to Pack Leader morph heavy attack could work, and will fit perfectly in the developers vision of this morph being a utility / support morph.
    It will enable Werewolf to be used as tank in PvE (something that players wanted for a long time btw) and will keep this morph relevant and useful.

    Werewolf has more stamina pool and build in DMG mitigation, so it should make up for lack of % block cost reduction.

    However, If that won’t be enough, there is also a possibility to add block cost reduction to this morph (Since again, it is supposed to be focused more on utility / support and survival).

    Perhaps it could be tied to pets somehow. For example:
    5% base block cost reduction and some bonus if your pet attacked someone recently. Example: 3% for 10 seconds per pet if your pet attacked someone recently. Since you have 2 pets that could be 5% base +3% for one pet & 3% for other pet.

    Other way is to simply add 1% block cost reduction for 10 seconds per enemy attacked by pets, stacking up to 10 or something like that. So 5% base + up to 10%.

    Tbh. That would be more useful than proposed by ZOS, because as stated above in my post, de-buffing pets are VERY unreliable. If necessary , replace one of the pet de-buff with block cost reduction applied to you.

    So it will be a utility / support morph while the other, Werewolf Berserker will be a raw DPS / DMG morph. Fits perfectly.
    That way the trade off (Lack of DMG but instead ability to Taunt) will look far better and at least will be more or less justified & acceptable.
    - Make wolf pets so they could still be targeted by PvE mobs, but not the players. Otherwise pets won’t be able to agro / tank enemy mobs / NPCs or bosses, making them pointless.
  • slofwnd
    slofwnd
    ✭✭✭
    With the latest changes to Caltrops there is now easily accessible source of AOE fracture for all stam toons. However there's no comparable source of AOE breach.

    This makes magicka less viable in trials such as Sunspire where lots of fights are AOE. It also has implications on PVP.

    There is a source of magickasteal and health steal (single target and aoe) but no source of stamina steal.

    If the game is going to be consistent, then please consider consistency between stam and mag dps, because the way it goes magicka DPS is not desired in majority of the trials. PVP is ruled by stamina too.

    Based on the observation stamina sustain is being improved by lowering cost of skills, so I'm not sure whether stamina steal is required at all. But in that case why not make mag sustain not reliant on magicka steal too?

    In addition some players observed shift to changing builds during a trial or dungeon for trash and boss fights. It might be entertaining should the base game have a feature to swap build presets fast. However that feature is only available to PC players via addon (dressing room) that does not always perform well. I had one bar not swapped numerous of times with it.

    And now think about console players who don't have addons?! How much pain would it be for them to swap builds for trash and boss fights?
  • slofwnd
    slofwnd
    ✭✭✭
    In the previous patch strategy was to align skill durations so that rotations are smoother.
    Now with the new changes durations are all different again

    Sorc:

    Daedric prey 6s
    Haunting curse 12s
    Volatile familiar is 8s
    Lightning splash 8s or 12s

    Nightblade:

    Cripple is 10s
    Twisting/refreshing path 12s
    Shade 18+2s with the passive

    Templar:

    Sunfire is 8+2s or 12+2s with passive
    Solar barrage is 8+2s with passive
    Spear shards 8s
    Backslash 6s with POTL debuff 9s

    Necro:

    Boneyard 10s
    Syphon 12s
    Skeletal Mage/Archer 16s

    Warden:
    Swarm 10s
    Impaling shards 12s

    DK:
    Searing strike 10+2s with passive
    Fiery breath 10+2s with passive
    Inferno 15s channel?

    Stamina weaps and skill lines:

    Volley is 8s or 12s, possibly with 2s delay
    Poison arrow is 10s

    Twin slashes are 10s
    Blade cloak is 8s or 12s

    Cleave is 10s

    Caltrops are 10s or 15s
    Trap is 10s or 18s with 10s buff (mind boggling)

    Magicka weaps and skill lines:

    Mages guild entropy is 10+2s with passive
    Wall of elements is 8s or 12s

    This will mess up the rotations.
  • Czekoludek
    Czekoludek
    ✭✭✭✭
    slofwnd wrote: »
    In the previous patch strategy was to align skill durations so that rotations are smoother.
    Now with the new changes durations are all different again

    Sorc:

    Daedric prey 6s
    Haunting curse 12s
    Volatile familiar is 8s
    Lightning splash 8s or 12s

    Nightblade:

    Cripple is 10s
    Twisting/refreshing path 12s
    Shade 18+2s with the passive

    Templar:

    Sunfire is 8+2s or 12+2s with passive
    Solar barrage is 8+2s with passive
    Spear shards 8s
    Backslash 6s with POTL debuff 9s

    Necro:

    Boneyard 10s
    Syphon 12s
    Skeletal Mage/Archer 16s

    Warden:
    Swarm 10s
    Impaling shards 12s

    DK:
    Searing strike 10+2s with passive
    Fiery breath 10+2s with passive
    Inferno 15s channel?

    Stamina weaps and skill lines:

    Volley is 8s or 12s, possibly with 2s delay
    Poison arrow is 10s

    Twin slashes are 10s
    Blade cloak is 8s or 12s

    Cleave is 10s

    Caltrops are 10s or 15s
    Trap is 10s or 18s with 10s buff (mind boggling)

    Magicka weaps and skill lines:

    Mages guild entropy is 10+2s with passive
    Wall of elements is 8s or 12s

    This will mess up the rotations.

    Magblade rotation is already an one big mess so I don't mind at this point. It can't be worse
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