Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

BennyButton · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Wow! Is that for real? It looks like a monstrous heal! Wtf are people complaining about? The Stam healer is gonna be ***! Throw out some blood alter, maybe an orb...you can only do one now anyways...can they convert that to one of those highest stat scaling thingy’s? Would I wear Sentinel or bogdans? Stamina necromancer healer is gonna be so good. Just wait and see. Stam Warden healer probably second best healer. Maybe bring a templar for off heals?

stam healing should not be a thing.

Why should the healer role be limited to Magicka? As a dedicated healer I am happy that ZOS finally adds the option for (balanced) Stamina healing builds, it’s long overdue.

As a dedicated healer that actually clears end-game content (i have to make that distinction because we aren't at all the same), stam healers are not and should never be viable. There's no CP for increasing the damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with stamina abilities. There's only elfborn which increases damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with magicka abilities by [0-25]%.

If they plan on making stam healers a thing, they should modify/change everything at once, not just bits and pieces.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Werewolf needs further adjustments:
Made a thread about it here. The damage nerfs are way overtuned and shouldn´t go live.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484345/werewolf-scalebreaker-feedback-why-most-of-the-changes-are-unjustified-and-needs-tweaking/p1?new=1

Or at least they should make SIGNIFICANT compensation for the DAMAGE loss on Pack Leader. The utility they are offering in return is close to nothing.

IonicKai · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Legit lol! That is absolutely ridiculous. That's the kind of healing that means groups will forgo a healer and there will be no place for anything but stam especially given that bow/bow builds are actually hitting harder than mag DDs. That is comically stupid and I can't believe that they would want to delete healers this badly. Even if that wasn't ZOS' intent that's what is going to happen at this rate. It's also going to exclude all but the very best top 1% of people currently running vet trials from completing almost any of them.

akray21 · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Wow! Is that for real? It looks like a monstrous heal! Wtf are people complaining about? The Stam healer is gonna be ***! Throw out some blood alter, maybe an orb...you can only do one now anyways...can they convert that to one of those highest stat scaling thingy’s? Would I wear Sentinel or bogdans? Stamina necromancer healer is gonna be so good. Just wait and see. Stam Warden healer probably second best healer. Maybe bring a templar for off heals?

stam healing should not be a thing.

Why should the healer role be limited to Magicka? As a dedicated healer I am happy that ZOS finally adds the option for (balanced) Stamina healing builds, it’s long overdue.

As a dedicated healer that actually clears end-game content (i have to make that distinction because we aren't at all the same), stam healers are not and should never be viable. There's no CP for increasing the damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with stamina abilities. There's only elfborn which increases damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with magicka abilities by [0-25]%.

If they plan on making stam healers a thing, they should modify/change everything at once, not just bits and pieces.

Precise Strikes: "Increase the critical damage and critical healing with stamina abilities."

Thraben · July 2019

IonicKai wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Legit lol! That is absolutely ridiculous.

Look on your medium armor life tooltipp of vigor (with the right CP distribution). That´s why many groups have been running Vet HM with 3DD and 1Tank in the last 2 years.

BennyButton · July 2019

akray21 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Wow! Is that for real? It looks like a monstrous heal! Wtf are people complaining about? The Stam healer is gonna be ***! Throw out some blood alter, maybe an orb...you can only do one now anyways...can they convert that to one of those highest stat scaling thingy’s? Would I wear Sentinel or bogdans? Stamina necromancer healer is gonna be so good. Just wait and see. Stam Warden healer probably second best healer. Maybe bring a templar for off heals?

stam healing should not be a thing.

Why should the healer role be limited to Magicka? As a dedicated healer I am happy that ZOS finally adds the option for (balanced) Stamina healing builds, it’s long overdue.

As a dedicated healer that actually clears end-game content (i have to make that distinction because we aren't at all the same), stam healers are not and should never be viable. There's no CP for increasing the damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with stamina abilities. There's only elfborn which increases damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with magicka abilities by [0-25]%.

If they plan on making stam healers a thing, they should modify/change everything at once, not just bits and pieces.

Precise Strikes: "Increase the critical damage and critical healing with stamina abilities."

Oh thanks @akray21 I didn't notice that lol.

That being said, stamina healers don't have the same access to buffs/debuffs that mag healers have: i.e. enough magicka to sustain casting combat prayer (minor berserk), ele drain would require a destro staff to utilize, etc.

Dreyloch · July 2019

With all respect Mr. Wheeler,

Isn't it about time (after 5 years of this balance crap) to roll up your sleeves along with the rest of the Dev team and just figure out a way to separate PvE and PvP skills? Make the skills work differently/or have different tooltips depending on what content your doing? I mean, isn't it frustrating patch after patch, forum post after post by us, and the headaches for EVERYONE to keep trying to balance both styles of play at the same time?

Each patch brings new problems. Each patch brings new turmoil over every little change that effects both styles of play. I can't see why your Dev team can't understand this is a futile battle. Maybe something can be revamped with the CP system to bring this change to life? Either you spec your toon for PvP or PvE. Maybe needing to do a little of both so that we can finally have a patch where most everyone is happy? If you really honestly read our feedback, and you truly love what you do and want to give us the best experience possible. Then it's time. Please find a way to make this happen. I think I speak for all when I say this is really getting old.

Amarlado · July 2019

Wow. I'm actually impressed, in a way, with how condescending that dev post was.

Sandman929 · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Wow! Is that for real? It looks like a monstrous heal! Wtf are people complaining about? The Stam healer is gonna be ***! Throw out some blood alter, maybe an orb...you can only do one now anyways...can they convert that to one of those highest stat scaling thingy’s? Would I wear Sentinel or bogdans? Stamina necromancer healer is gonna be so good. Just wait and see. Stam Warden healer probably second best healer. Maybe bring a templar for off heals?

stam healing should not be a thing.

Why should the healer role be limited to Magicka? As a dedicated healer I am happy that ZOS finally adds the option for (balanced) Stamina healing builds, it’s long overdue.

As a dedicated healer that actually clears end-game content (i have to make that distinction because we aren't at all the same), stam healers are not and should never be viable. There's no CP for increasing the damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with stamina abilities. There's only elfborn which increases damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with magicka abilities by [0-25]%.

If they plan on making stam healers a thing, they should modify/change everything at once, not just bits and pieces.

The most disturbing part of that is that 2 people agreed with it. Precise Strikes doesn't exist in the CP tree.

Cążki · July 2019

make pvp server pls

BennyButton · July 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Wow! Is that for real? It looks like a monstrous heal! Wtf are people complaining about? The Stam healer is gonna be ***! Throw out some blood alter, maybe an orb...you can only do one now anyways...can they convert that to one of those highest stat scaling thingy’s? Would I wear Sentinel or bogdans? Stamina necromancer healer is gonna be so good. Just wait and see. Stam Warden healer probably second best healer. Maybe bring a templar for off heals?

stam healing should not be a thing.

Why should the healer role be limited to Magicka? As a dedicated healer I am happy that ZOS finally adds the option for (balanced) Stamina healing builds, it’s long overdue.

As a dedicated healer that actually clears end-game content (i have to make that distinction because we aren't at all the same), stam healers are not and should never be viable. There's no CP for increasing the damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with stamina abilities. There's only elfborn which increases damage and healing dealt of critical strikes with magicka abilities by [0-25]%.

If they plan on making stam healers a thing, they should modify/change everything at once, not just bits and pieces.

The most disturbing part of that is that 2 people agreed with it. Precise Strikes doesn't exist in the CP tree.

in my defense, i'm a dedicated healer, prior to this patch i had no need to look into stam cp lol

Tyagar · July 2019

I am still concerned with the impact on Healers. To be fair, I can also see some interesting aspects to the announced changes. Essentially, at least as far I understand it now, one impact of these changes will be that groups will be forced to distribute their healing capacities among more players in the group. Basically, you now would like to have a Templar Healer and a Warden Healer as (in most cases) before, but now also the availability of two sources of Echoing Vigor and also Cinder Storm will become more or less madatory; otherwise it will probably become close to impossible to heal through some of the rougher fights (vHoF HM, vCR execute,...) While I don't dislike the idea in general to put some more support responsibility on DDs - that way maybe less people will confuse the concept of being a pro DD with the ability to mindlessly hit the same 15 buttons in a row over and over again:P - as I indicated in my last post, I fear that the summarized impact of all the individual changes on the Healer role are maybe not very well estimated yet.

While I am not believing in a new 10 Stamcro + 2 Tank meta, as forecasted by BennyButton above, I do believe there is a real "threat" to the existence of the Healer role as we know it at the moment. Namely, I wouldn't be surprised if, with the above changes, in the future we would no longer see groups with 2 Healers, but instead groups with 0 Healers and 3-4 DD/Heal hybrids. Mainly because of the necessity for your group to still being able to put out enough raw healing, but also because other options to support your group as a Healer are getting smaller (Orbs), and because pure Healers might simply run out of usefull skill options during the fights (see my last post). Now of course, whether you would view such a perspective rather as a threat or rather as an interesting new way to play the game is subject to individual preference. However, thinking about a hopefully existent vision that the developers might have in conncetion with these changes, at the moment I can only imagine two scenarios: Either this kind of impact is not desired; in which case the announced changes definitely should be revisted again. Or this kind of impact is desired; in which case it would be a pretty weak move to not announce clearly that the whole idea of the Healer role will change drastically. Which means in any way, I am a bit concerned about what it is likely to come.

I also want to comment in some more detail on the two changes that most likely will have the largest impact on Healers, namely Healing Springs / Illustrious Healing (in what follows I will just speak about Healing Springs), and Obrs: I fear that the developers are highly underestimating the impact that stacking of Healing Springs can have on the raw healing output. It will be quite the struggle to compensate for that, if at all possible (in stacked fights it might be possible, but for fights that involve some mobility this will be pretty difficult). Even though, since I like the idea to promote to some reasonable extent some support setups on DDs, I am willing to first see how some of these things play out in practice. I do not like, however, that with the changes to Vigor and Healing Springs, and with the alleged new option of the Circle of Preservation, healing will most likely become so much less dynamic. The shortest HoTs will now be 8 seconds, with the vast majority of HoTs being considerably longer. Also there will be basically no point (and almost no way) to heal people outside some predefined healing areas anymore. Which means we might actually get in a much stronger sense the same mindless rotation routines on Healers that we already have on DDs since forever. Similar for Orbs, there will be just no incentive and/or no opportunity anymore to quick-wittedly distribute some Orbs to your group members in the correct directions when there is a short window of opportunity (yeah, I know they should have stacked better, but you know how it's going^^). This is actually my main concern about these changes, and this is also were I completely not understand, and not approve, this whole alleged reasoning of making abilities more consistent. It is one thing to have some fixed, well designed standards that balance the different skills available in the game. However, it is a completely different thing to just make everything the same. Of course it would also be consistent to just introduce the same duration on 10sec for every DoT and HoT in the game, and to use the very same damage/healing scaling for all of these. But obviosuly that would be super boring! With the announced changes, however, it seems we are moving precisely into this direction.

Summarized, my to biggest concerns/wishes with respect to the changes affecting Healers are:

Please do not remove all of the dynamic from the Healer role. The availability of a strong HoT with small duration is absolutely desirable to keep things dynamic, and in particular with the changes to Healing Springs, this element will be gone more or less completely. Maybe remove the possibility that one person can be affected by several Healing Springs, but please do not remove the possibility to have several Healing Springs active at the same time (which means you also should not increase the duration by that much, and which would still amount to an insane nerf in healing capability).
In the same context, please do not redesign Orbs in such a way that it's only really meaningful anymore to cast them once every ~20sec, if you do not provide some other useful alternative for Healers to use. Maybe make the synergy available to 4 players only and increase the healing drastically. This would still encourage more frequent casting and would help to mitigate the healing nerf due to the changes on Healing Springs.

IonicKai · July 2019

Thraben wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Legit lol! That is absolutely ridiculous.

Look on your medium armor life tooltipp of vigor (with the right CP distribution). That´s why many groups have been running Vet HM with 3DD and 1Tank in the last 2 years.

Oh I'm aware. I'm also aware that with enough DPS you can skip mechanics but they also buffed vigor so it's even stronger. So strong that just in that tool tip is over 4k / s (in equivalent healing since it ticks every 2s) and I don't think that was trying to optimize vigor.

BennyButton · July 2019

BennyButton wrote: »

this looks really balanced

This Looks Really Balanced

SirLeeMinion · July 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Could you pls not nerf Pack Leader that hard ? It will be useless if those changes go live. No joke. I can not think of a content (pvp, pve, solo or group) or secenario in which some one would pick "new" Pack Leader over Werewolf Berserker...

Looks more like werewolf in general will be useless except for RP. I was going to try to get a few more pack runs in with my WW guild before this dropped, but... why bother?

Seraphayel · July 2019

Nevermind, why bother.

I‘m happy that ZOS finally acknowledges something like Stamina healing, it’s good for the game.

FrancisCrawford · July 2019

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Yikes. Makes we want to come up with a stamina healing build.

leepalmer95 · July 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

bulcke10 wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch 👌 why are there so many haters in this game without testing and theorycrafting 🤔 I'm happy because this game is far from death with this mutch effort they put on the game for 5 years 👍 hope they continue until they have a new elders scrolls online game 👏

So if u hate en put negative things on this forum why do you play this game?

this looks really balanced

Nice 👍 there are players who will cry about this.. But they can use it also... 👏 So for me no problem and I still like the game

Yikes. Makes we want to come up with a stamina healing build.

Theres a few but they're always subpar compared with magicka ones. Nice to see they have a strong foundation now.

luen79rwb17_ESO · July 2019

Lol well there goes an insightful for a thread that's supposed to give context but I got none from reading it

Cortimi · July 2019

Kagukan wrote: »

While trying to balance abilities keep in mind light armor is not the same as heavy armor. If offensive abilities are to be equalized than the same needs to be done with defense abilities. And with that, light armor will need better defense abilities than heavy armor.

Light armor has immense offense capabilities. Making it have "better defense abilities than heavy armor" is simply flat out stupid.

Sandman929 · July 2019

Whatever you think about the notes, and I've got some reservations of my own, I will say that this looks like a direction. This isn't baby steps and a bunch of minor tweaks that leave most of us wonder why even bother doing it.
I have a bit more confidence after this that the audit we heard about really happened and there exists a clear direction for changes.

Camb0Sl1ce · July 2019

Defensive sets, defensive ults, self healing sounds a lot like PvP to me. If I want to PvP ill PvP a lot of these proposed changes are ridiculous from the pve side of things. Stripping damage away that a lot of players put the time and practice in to achieve is demoralizing.

Sennecca · July 2019

Ash cloud: 5.0Ash Cloud: Increased healing of this ability by approximately 15%.

5.1 decreased the healing of this ability by 30% increased the cost to 5670 from 4590

5.0 Drain Power: Increased the damage of this ability and the Sap Essence morph by 25% to adhere it to our PBAoE damage standards. Ability and Sap Essence now grant Major Sorcery, rather than Brutality, to better represent the scaling mechanisms the skills use.
Power Extraction (morph): Increased the damage of this ability by 20%. This ability continues to grant Major Brutality.

5.1Power Extraction (morph): This morph no longer increases the damage dealt of the attack, but instead reduces the Weapon Damage of enemies hit by 300 Weapon Damage for 8 seconds.

5.0 Razor Caltrops (morph):
This morph no longer snares enemies hit upon the initial hit. Instead, the initial hit deals as much damage as an instant cast AoE spammable ability (approximately 350% damage increase for the initial hit).
Adjusted this ability to follow our standardized Damage over Time ruleset. Added a 1 second delay between then initial hit and the first tick, and increased the damage per tick by approximately 8% to make up for the loss of the first tick.

5.1 Reduced the base cost to 2984 from 3510.
Increased the snare potency to 50% from 30%.
Reduced the damage per tick by approximately 60%, and decreased the duration to 10 seconds from 12 seconds. These changes apply to all morphs.
Caltrops now ranks up in 1.1% damage per rank, rather than reducing in cost.

Razor Caltrops (morph): This ability no longer deals initial hit damage, but instead applies Major Fracture to enemies hit by the DoT, up to 4 seconds at Rank IV.

I'm probably going to find ways to adapt, but changes like these patch after patch make me wonder just WHAT the vision really is.

Jayne_Doe · July 2019

I'm assuming at some point you're going to need to look at passives? Or have you factored those into the changes you've made? Like that certain class passives might increase the overall duration of skills or reduce the cost of skills, which would then potentially cause some skills to not actually be in line with the standards?

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Jayne_Doe wrote: »

I'm assuming at some point you're going to need to look at passives? Or have you factored those into the changes you've made? Like that certain class passives might increase the overall duration of skills or reduce the cost of skills, which would then potentially cause some skills to not actually be in line with the standards?

I'm thinking more along the lines of don't bring this to their attention.

Deathlord92 · July 2019

Make rapid regen so it’s always on the caster please and rework concealed weapon 🙏

Iskiab · July 2019

Awesome, thanks for looking at orbs for the synergy issue for pve sustain from orbs.

Couple of issues I’m seeing right now from a ‘first glance’ at notes without being able to test anything:

1. 2h onslaught looks like it will be OP
2. Stamwarden healers look like they’ll be OP
3. I’m concerned werewolfs are overnerfed. They’re so easily kitable and with everybody else being buffed and them being nerfed, they’ll be too weak. They’re already basicly OP vs noobs and ineffective/useless in high MMR pre-nerf
4. Look at ritual of retribution. You’re going to create the exact same conditions where MagNBs were before, stack templar dps using ritual and you only need 1 healer, except ritual will be twice as powerful as refreshing path ever was
5. Soul magic skill line will have issues because of the set that buffs the skill line
6. Healer changes aren’t too bad, major overreaction because the unknown creates fear

That’s all I can see just from reading notes, more to come later when I’ve logged on.

Blinkin8r · July 2019

Heyo @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Performance is pretty garbo tho what steps are you/anyone at Zos doing to make the game playable?

TheHsN · July 2019

I got bored to change all the time, every 3 month

*Playing style
*My Gear
*My Cp
*My Skılls

I run trials , PVp ing, dolmens, Dungeons to be able to drop the right set. Then spends a lot of golds to make them legendary. spend a lot of time also to be able to make everything ready to play well

Then i cant even play with it 1 or 2 month and then again the same cycle.

I WANT TO PLAY THE GAME LITTLE BIT.....

Leave the major changes...

TheHsN · July 2019

And Also You can make Balance with BUFF ing to skills and gears not just nerfing..

Why trying to balance all the time with NERFS