[Werewolf Scalebreaker feedback] - "Why most of the changes are unjustified and needs tweaking"

Qbiken

This thread will put more focus on the Berserker morph and also more focus towards PvP
To start of this topic I´ll begin by quoting @jediodyn_ESO who did a nice summary of his/her view of the changes made to werewolf on the Scalebreaker PTS:

New patch nerfs the crud out of BOTH morphs.
Berserker gets a TON less damage.

Here let me break it down:
Resistances apply to all bleeds = dmg nerf
17% dmg reduction to light & heavy attacks
Cost increase (big) + damage reduction (small) on claws - damage change would be ok if not for the increased cost.
17% damage reduction on howl of agony with a (lol) %3 increase to a feared target
Fear nerfed and now has a shorter range than light attacks. (ridiculous)
Huge cost increases means needing more sustain so.. less defense and/or offense.

Also:
Slap in the face 1% cost reduction to pounce
Healing ridiculously gutted - huge cost increase and less healing

+25% bleed damage doesn’t compensate for all that lost damage and increased cost. Also, all other bleeds also had a face damage increase but take an overall damage decrease due to resistance... so overall less damage.

Make no mistake, both morphs are getting neutered. WW fall 2019- roleplayers only.

Hircine´s Fortitude:
I personally think it´s the right call to reduce the effectiveness of this skill since it was overperforming in PvP. No other heal in the game comes remotely close to such a potent heal. What I don´t agree with is how the nerf is done. Reducing the healing or increasing the cost would´ve been a good move, but both at the same time is way overkill. My suggestion is to lower the potency of the heal, but leave the cost as it is.

Increased cost of werewolf skills (not including Hircine´s Fortitude):
Not as big of a deal if you ask me, people will survive and adapt.

Pack-Leader morph
This morph is utterly useless at this point. The morph offers 0 damage output and in terms of utility, the snare and minor maim from the direwolves are not good enough as a compensation.

Werewolf damage output
This section is what´s going to make up the majority of this post, since it´s the most concerning one. Ever since Summerset launched, werewolfs has lost more and more damage each new patch.
In Summerset, werewolfs never got the buffs to light-& heavy attacks (new system where your max resource contributed more to your LA/HA damage) as everyone else got. Adding some bugs that occurred at the same time, this ended up with a 15-20% damage loss to werewolfs light-& heavy attacks (while everyone else that wasn´t a werewolf saw a buff of 15-20 % to their light-& heavy attacks)

In Wolfhunter, werewolfs lost the unique weapon damage modifier from Hircine´s Rage, resulting in even less damage output. As compensation, werewolf received increased survivability through the new Hircine´s Fortitude and it scaling from max HP.

We all remember Murkmire with the bugged enchants and werewolf bleeds proccing them. I´ll leave them out of this context however, since I don´t believe in balancing something after how something that is considered a bug performs.

In Elsweyr, werewolfs lost their ability to refresh the light attack (LA) bleed upon each new light attack. On top of this, the bleed duration was reduced to 4 seconds, down from 8. The damage tooltip remained unchanged however. From a PvP perspective, this was a small buff to the berserker morph since the pressure was a lot more frontloaded than before, and more experienced werewolf players would make good use of this (aka lowering the floor, raising the ceiling). From a PvE/Pack-Leader perspective, it was a noticeable damage nerf, since the bleed damage on the Pack-Leader morph was nerfed at the same time.

As you can see, werewolf has lost damage over quite sometime. And now ZOS decides to reduce damage even more. Which in my opinion is a death-sentence for them in PvP. With bleeds not ignoring resistance anymore, the berserker bleed has taken up to a 60% damage nerf in PvP. On top of that you further reduce the damage on most of our skills and light attacks. Werewolf has always been a tool to deal with very tanky and durable targets and has the last 2-3 patches been a soft counter to the "tank-meta" that people despise so much. Why would I pick a 255-300 (depending on what class you play) cost ultimate that doesn´t give me any edge over my opponent?

Werewolf should be focused around high damage output, and I don´t see it as a problem with them having "a bit over the top" damage output, as long as their tankiness/survivability ain´t too overkill. As it stands with the current PTS notes, werewolf doesn´t have any of these things. They don´t have the damage output to apply high single target pressure (especially with vigor being overbuffed) and they don´t have enough survivability to withstand longer fights due to the changes to Hircine´s Fortitude. I´m fine with making a choice between damage and survivability, but at the moment I can´t choose neither one of them.

My proposals:

* The werewolf bleed continues to ignore physical resistance as a unique mechanic (it´s an ultimate after all), but remove the extra 25% damage bonus to the berserker bleed that was added with Scalebreaker PTS.

* Hircine´s Fortitude gets reduced in potency, but doesn´t get any cost increase.

* Remove the direwolves from the pack-leader morph (so no snare or maim from this morph anymore). The Pack-Leader morph is now a utility morph that boosts the performance of other werewolfs in the group. For each werewolf in the group (pack-leader included) the cost of werewolf skills are reduced by 3% (up to a maximum of 12%) and damage done increased by 2% for each werewolf in the group (up to a maximum of 8%). These %-numbers are just examples and can be tweaked. This way, the pack-leader morph becomes a utility morph that focuses around group play.

* Undo the damage nerf to Howl of Agony and Light-& Heavy attack damage. If not, reduce the damage nerf so werewolf doesn´t hit like a wet noodle in PvP.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
@Masel @Alcast (tagging some of the class-reps just in case ^^)

Chrlynsch

Good points here @Qbiken, I really hope it gets looked at before the patch goes live.

cheifsoap

I'll repost what I posted earlier since the conversation kind of died off

I honestly gave up on the math when i hit forward momentum (it wasn't clear how it was calculated) but essentially on the WW, it works out to be something like -

hircine's rage cost
Original: 4,590
New: 5,737.5

Amount:
Original: 45% max health
New: 37.5%

Effective healing @ hps 37k in a single mana bar of 13k
Original: 16,650 x3, total effective healing: 49,950
New: 13,875 x2, total effective healing: 27,750

vs. what other stam classes have with vigor and forward momentum; which btw are stamina based and thus will get more use out of them. But for the sake of debate lets assume they use the same stamina @ 13k. Resolving Vigor got a single target buff, "Increased the healing per tick by approximately 85% & Reduced the cost to 2295 from 3511." with its morph it goes back to the old 5s duration every 1s. Which accounts to almost 10k per cast? While this is a hot, there are other skills to keep the caster alive such as weapon swapping to blade cloak. The point is, there is more in every other classes tool box to keep them alive vs. the WW where they have 1 burst heal that they can only cast a few times a bar.

The point im trying to make is when you look at the WW holistically, it's toolset pales in comparison to the toolset of other stam classes.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, Pack Leader imho is the morph that requires some attention, as next patch it will simply be useless, both in PvP & PvE.

Pain-points:

1. Untargateble pets – inability to tank DMG & agro mobs.

This means that off-tanking DMG in PvE is now gone. Pets Won’t be able to agro enemies and as a result the whole reason to even consider picking this morph for Solo or Group PvE is now gone. Wolf pets simply won’t be able to “tank” DMG.

2. Utility offered by this morph is far too weak & unreliable.

Since pets will be the one that will apply the de-buff (minor maim & snare), it will be VERY difficult to apply the de-buff where it is needed. Pets are steered by AI, and the AI is more or less “Derpy” or just Dumb. Pets may or may not attack enemy. Also “Pet control” players have is very limited. At best those pets will be able to de-buff 2 enemies, applying de-buff over & over to the same enemy (2 at best, since you have 2 wolf pets). This means that the effective up-time of this de-buff is very low, almost close to nothing (as pets wont simply switch target to de-buff another one). Also pets will have significantly less DMG which means that they will never be able to kill a mob on their own.

Another issues is Snare. From PvE perspective, it is close to useless as Bosses are simply immune to snares. Also, there is snare immunity if you have been snared previously. So in a scenario mentioned above, when those pets will de-buff one enemy over & over it means that snare de-buff will simply be wasted 90% of times.

3. Lack of DMG, Bleed DMG and AOE DMG on heavy attacks & very weak compensation.

Compared to other morph (Werewolf Berserker) the Pack Leader morph will stay WAY behind in terms of DMG potential across the board. Utility (mentioned above) has a serious issues and it is far too weak to compensate the huge lack of DMG Pack Leader will now have.

4. PvP wise, pets will have very little counter play.

Since Pets will be untargetable and unkillable, There will be no way to avoid the minor maim de-buff and snare de-buff. The only counter play I see is roll-dodge mechanics, but for many builds (magicka ones especially) that is far too little.

5. Almost no use-case.

All factors combined will cause this morph to disappear. Not only from PvP but from PvE too. There simply won’t be a reason good enough for any one do decide to use Pack Leader morph. Berserker Werewolf, despite numerous Werewolf nerfs looks far superior in every possible scenario, role or type of content.

Suggestion and ideas:

If Pack Leader is supposed to be a Utility / Support morph (as PTS developer comment suggest), it will need far more utility than it offers now.

- Adding a Tanut to Pack Leader morph heavy attack could work, and will fit perfectly in the developers vision of this morph being a utility / support morph.

It will enable Werewolf to be used as tank in PvE (something that players wanted for a long time btw) and will keep this morph relevant and useful.

Werewolf has more stamina pool and build in DMG mitigation, so it should make up for lack of % block cost reduction.

However, If that won’t be enough, there is also a possibility to add block cost reduction to this morph (Since again, it is supposed to be focused more on utility / support and survival).

Perhaps it could be tied to pets somehow. For example:
5% base block cost reduction and some bonus if your pet attacked someone recently. Example: 3% for 10 seconds per pet if your pet attacked someone recently. Since you have 2 pets that could be 5% base +3% for one pet & 3% for other pet.

Other way is to simply add 1% block cost reduction for 10 seconds per enemy attacked by pets, stacking up to 10 or something like that. So 5% base + up to 10%.

Tbh. That would be more useful than proposed by ZOS, because as stated above in my post, de-buffing pets are VERY unreliable. If necessary , replace one of the pet de-buff with block cost reduction applied to you.

So it will be a utility / support morph while the other, Werewolf Berserker will be a raw DPS / DMG morph. Fits perfectly.
That way the trade off (Lack of DMG but instead ability to Taunt) will look far better and at least will be more or less justified & acceptable.

- Make wolf pets so they could still be targeted by PvE mobs, but not the players. Otherwise pets won’t be able to agro / tank enemy mobs / NPCs or bosses, making them pointless.

Skelfish

Unless I misunderstood how the 5pc works, I don't think Dro'Zakar is working with the Berserker bleed. So that's a bummer.

When comparing Combat Metrics reports where the only difference is 1 has Dro'Zakar and 1 has something else...Combat Metrics is not reporting a higher weapon damage.
I'm aware that Combat Metrics won't pick up any applied buff because it's obviously not updated for the PTS, but it still should show a 200 weapon damage difference between fight reports due to proccing off each unique bleed effect on an enemy.

In the fight reports below I am using Slimecraw, Normal Relequen, and either Blood Moon or Dro'Zakar. Dro'Zakar should be showing a max weapon damage value higher than 3932 from the Blood Moon Report if it procced from the werewolf bleed and acted more like Hunding's Rage and less like Strength of the Automaton where it's an "invisible" buff.




*Edited to fix screenshots

Chrlynsch

Skelfish wrote: »

Unless I misunderstood how the 5pc works, I don't think Dro'Zakar is working with the Berserker bleed. So that's a bummer.

When comparing Combat Metrics reports where the only difference is 1 has Dro'Zakar and 1 has something else...Combat Metrics is not reporting a higher weapon damage.
I'm aware that Combat Metrics won't pick up any applied buff because it's obviously not updated for the PTS, but it still should show a 200 weapon damage difference between fight reports due to proccing off each unique bleed effect on an enemy.

In the fight reports below I am using Slimecraw, Normal Relequen, and either Blood Moon or Dro'Zakar. Dro'Zakar should be showing a max weapon damage value higher than 3932 from the Blood Moon Report if it procced from the werewolf bleed and acted more like Hunding's Rage and less like Strength of the Automaton where it's an "invisible" buff.




*Edited to fix screenshots

It should be an invisible buff like Automaton.

ZeroXFF

When it comes to PvE, the berserker damage got flat out buffed, because in well optimized groups the targets don't have resistances anyways, so bleeds being mitigated by resistances is irrelevant.

But pack leader is a dead morph at this point. To make it in any way relevant it needs one or both of the following:
1. Make it permanent.
2. Give it a taunt.

Lisutaris

I can agree in pvp-pov.

But for PvE, WW would need much more love to make it worth using it as an ult.
The 17% nerf is complete crazy. The changes to Packleader (pets), intelligent. Getting rid of the bleed on the other hand ? omg. A good change would be a debuff on the mob (as packleader), which gives the grp more dmg if they attack the same boss. Or make the pets only deal (high) damage if they attack the same target.
Simple but pack leader would deserve the name.

Wuuffyy

Katahdin wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Great changes ZOS. WW was deserving of nerfs.

What purpose does pack leader ult serve?

He is a WW hayer, praising the nerfs in every thread. He has no point or perspective other than that.

Right.

Amdar_Godkiller

Not to mention the changes to dual wield infused trait a few patches ago. In PVE, berserker should be fine for the most part, but both morphs are pretty much useless in PVP after this update. There won't even be A SINGLE powerful PVP WW build.

Why are light attacks being nerfed? Most wolves are going to use kena just to deal damage, so actual costs are much higher in WW form than they appear.

If you're gonna nerf it this much, just make it a toggle with a heal that costs stamina so it can just be apart of the stamina toolkit, rather than the fully functional class it once was.

ccfeeling

Ww was totally

Skelfish wrote: »

Unless I misunderstood how the 5pc works, I don't think Dro'Zakar is working with the Berserker bleed. So that's a bummer.

When comparing Combat Metrics reports where the only difference is 1 has Dro'Zakar and 1 has something else...Combat Metrics is not reporting a higher weapon damage.
I'm aware that Combat Metrics won't pick up any applied buff because it's obviously not updated for the PTS, but it still should show a 200 weapon damage difference between fight reports due to proccing off each unique bleed effect on an enemy.

In the fight reports below I am using Slimecraw, Normal Relequen, and either Blood Moon or Dro'Zakar. Dro'Zakar should be showing a max weapon damage value higher than 3932 from the Blood Moon Report if it procced from the werewolf bleed and acted more like Hunding's Rage and less like Strength of the Automaton where it's an "invisible" buff.




*Edited to fix screenshots

I have the similar result.

templesus

WW is more on the balanced side now. Refs were just. Good job ZOS and Gilliam.

Wuuffyy

templesus wrote: »

WW is more on the balanced side now. Refs were just. Good job ZOS and Gilliam.

Lol you just hop around WW forms and lodge unbased, unfounded, incredibly biased statements misrepresenting a big problem that just happens to not encompass you. I have noticed this recently and others can see that pattern with your posts also.

Anyways, the packleader nerfs are the worst. They honestly need to have meatshields now and should have a bleed half of current live value as they are big wolves with 10 knives for claws.

jediodyn_ESO

IMO all pets should have a “targeting off” option in combat settings. Zoo WW groups were bad in PvP but without that, who was seriously having trouble with Werewolves?

Berserkers only were dangerous if you had a pocket healer or we’re going up against new players without impen, don’t ever cc, or don’t break free. In any of those situations a high dps build would still be way more ideal than a WW.

“High Dps, aggressive (but fragile) playstyles are:
1) going to always suck against decent players.
2) always going to make new players cry
3) always going to look op with a healer following them around keeping them alive if the other team doesn’t also have heals
4) completely worthless if they aren’t actually high dps and still fragile.

This patch makes WW fall into category 4.
Too many nerfs ZOS. WW are so weak on PTS now. Try playing your own game!

Dashmatt

The combination of nerfing the heal while increasing the cost is too heavy-handed. One or the other would suffice. Preferably the amount healed.

Not sure what to say about the damage nerfs, other than it also seems like overkill.

I’m not sure it’s fair to apply class skill rules to werewolves, since they are not really a class. They don’t have class skills, or benefits for slotting abilities. They don’t get weapon passives. They have one skill bar. They don’t have an ultimate - they ARE the ultimate.

25% more damage at 25% more cost? 25% more than what? What else in this game is even remotely similar?

Wuuffyy

Dashmatt wrote: »

The combination of nerfing the heal while increasing the cost is too heavy-handed. One or the other would suffice. Preferably the amount healed.

Not sure what to say about the damage nerfs, other than it also seems like overkill.

I’m not sure it’s fair to apply class skill rules to werewolves, since they are not really a class. They don’t have class skills, or benefits for slotting abilities. They don’t get weapon passives. They have one skill bar. They don’t have an ultimate - they ARE the ultimate.

25% more damage at 25% more cost? 25% more than what? What else in this game is even remotely similar?

I know. Just unnecessary off the top nerfs.

Tommy_The_Gun

Qbiken wrote: »

My proposals:
* Remove the direwolves from the pack-leader morph (so no snare or maim from this morph anymore). The Pack-Leader morph is now a utility morph that boosts the performance of other werewolfs in the group. For each werewolf in the group (pack-leader included) the cost of werewolf skills are reduced by 3% (up to a maximum of 12%) and damage done increased by 2% for each werewolf in the group (up to a maximum of 8%). These %-numbers are just examples and can be tweaked. This way, the pack-leader morph becomes a utility morph that focuses around group play.

That would not work as it will cause ppl to only run this morph in group content as a DPS role. Imagine this in 12 man trial...

ZOS is trying to make it a utilty support morph. But de-buff the ofered to wolf pets is simply too litle to compansate lack of dmg. Also, this ww morph (Pack Leader) was always good for solo play.
Locking this only in group play is a terible idea imho. When it comes to Pack Leader ZOS should simply focus on the folliwing things:
- Incresing the utilty / support aspect in a "uniwersal" way, that will benefit both pve / pvp (for example tanut + block cost reduction).
- Incresing DMG mitigation (to compensate lack of DMG).
- Perhaps adding a buff to you when pet attacks , instead of de-buffing enemies.

Qbiken

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

My proposals:
* Remove the direwolves from the pack-leader morph (so no snare or maim from this morph anymore). The Pack-Leader morph is now a utility morph that boosts the performance of other werewolfs in the group. For each werewolf in the group (pack-leader included) the cost of werewolf skills are reduced by 3% (up to a maximum of 12%) and damage done increased by 2% for each werewolf in the group (up to a maximum of 8%). These %-numbers are just examples and can be tweaked. This way, the pack-leader morph becomes a utility morph that focuses around group play.

That would not work as it will cause ppl to only run this morph in group content as a DPS role. Imagine this in 12 man trial...

ZOS is trying to make it a utilty support morph. But de-buff the ofered to wolf pets is simply too litle to compansate lack of dmg. Also, this ww morph (Pack Leader) was always good for solo play.
Locking this only in group play is a terible idea imho. When it comes to Pack Leader ZOS should simply focus on the folliwing things:
- Incresing the utilty / support aspect in a "uniwersal" way, that will benefit both pve / pvp (for example tanut + block cost reduction).
- Incresing DMG mitigation (to compensate lack of DMG).
- Perhaps adding a buff to you when pet attacks , instead of de-buffing enemies.

I'm not saying thay my proposal is without flaws, and it was just an example of how you could rework it. But I do agree with you that Pack-Leader doesn't offer enough utility as it stands right now.

The biggest issue I've encountered on the PTS is how overboard ZOS went with the increased cost of the heal. Lowering the potency is an ok change but for 5,4k magicka, it's way too much.

Amdar_Godkiller

templesus wrote: »

WW is more on the balanced side now. Refs were just. Good job ZOS and Gilliam.

You play on PS4, so maybe you should try not commenting on the PTS state of WW as though you know what the *** you're talking about.

Amdar_Godkiller

Dashmatt wrote: »

The combination of nerfing the heal while increasing the cost is too heavy-handed. One or the other would suffice. Preferably the amount healed.

Not sure what to say about the damage nerfs, other than it also seems like overkill.

I’m not sure it’s fair to apply class skill rules to werewolves, since they are not really a class. They don’t have class skills, or benefits for slotting abilities. They don’t get weapon passives. They have one skill bar. They don’t have an ultimate - they ARE the ultimate.

25% more damage at 25% more cost? 25% more than what? What else in this game is even remotely similar?

I'd suggest adding percentage penetration to our passives as a means of better adjusting for the nerfs and changes in the mechanics of our bleed.

This would make our WW attacks FEEL POWERFUL, while increasing our bleed and light attack damage as well. 25% increased penetration instead of the 25% buff to our bleed damage seems about right.

I suggest changing the crappy aoe morph of our pounce to one that gives major and minor expedition for 5 seconds, since WWs won't be able to utilize the new shuffle feature of passive major expedition from AOE damage, making us 30% slower than we once were in relation to medium armor builds. I like the changes to shuffle, but I also see it as another indirect nerf to WW, since it kind of negates our 30% movement speed bonus, relatively speaking.

Amdar_Godkiller

Qbiken wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

My proposals:
* Remove the direwolves from the pack-leader morph (so no snare or maim from this morph anymore). The Pack-Leader morph is now a utility morph that boosts the performance of other werewolfs in the group. For each werewolf in the group (pack-leader included) the cost of werewolf skills are reduced by 3% (up to a maximum of 12%) and damage done increased by 2% for each werewolf in the group (up to a maximum of 8%). These %-numbers are just examples and can be tweaked. This way, the pack-leader morph becomes a utility morph that focuses around group play.

That would not work as it will cause ppl to only run this morph in group content as a DPS role. Imagine this in 12 man trial...

ZOS is trying to make it a utilty support morph. But de-buff the ofered to wolf pets is simply too litle to compansate lack of dmg. Also, this ww morph (Pack Leader) was always good for solo play.
Locking this only in group play is a terible idea imho. When it comes to Pack Leader ZOS should simply focus on the folliwing things:
- Incresing the utilty / support aspect in a "uniwersal" way, that will benefit both pve / pvp (for example tanut + block cost reduction).
- Incresing DMG mitigation (to compensate lack of DMG).
- Perhaps adding a buff to you when pet attacks , instead of de-buffing enemies.

I'm not saying thay my proposal is without flaws, and it was just an example of how you could rework it. But I do agree with you that Pack-Leader doesn't offer enough utility as it stands right now.

The biggest issue I've encountered on the PTS is how overboard ZOS went with the increased cost of the heal. Lowering the potency is an ok change but for 5,4k magicka, it's way too much.

Forcing us back to where we were before wolfhunter, having to build for healing and sustain over damage and mitigation.

Ellyhan

Give us a Taunt !!

Amdar_Godkiller

Ellyhan wrote: »

Give us a Taunt !!

No. WW has no tanking potential because it has no ability to increase transformation duration while blocking, nor any passives to help with block cost. Plus our debuffs are too expensive for tanking purposes.

I'd rather see dedicated WW healing than WW tanking. lol

Tommy_The_Gun

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Ellyhan wrote: »

Give us a Taunt !!

No. WW has no tanking potential because it has no ability to increase transformation duration while blocking, nor any passives to help with block cost. Plus our debuffs are too expensive for tanking purposes.

I'd rather see dedicated WW healing than WW tanking. lol

I disagree. WW has more stamina pool and build-in dmg mitigation, which should make up for the lack of block cost reduction. Sure, it wont be amazing tank but it should be enough to do vet base game dungeons or normal DLC ones. This will be almost on the same level as WW DPS. Not that great but "good enough".

Besides, ZOS vision of WW is for the pack leader to be a utility / support - the very definision of a tank & what tank does.

Also, if you are concern about lack of % block cost, then we still have sturdy trait, CP and gear sets.

Btw. Block cost could be added together with taunt (if that will be necesery). I simply fear that ppl will start this stupid nerf war again, so I dont want WW to be super strong. I just want it to be decent and current Pack Leader morph on PTS is FAR from beeing at least decent...

Amdar_Godkiller

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Ellyhan wrote: »

Give us a Taunt !!

No. WW has no tanking potential because it has no ability to increase transformation duration while blocking, nor any passives to help with block cost. Plus our debuffs are too expensive for tanking purposes.

I'd rather see dedicated WW healing than WW tanking. lol

I disagree. WW has more stamina pool and build-in dmg mitigation, which should make up for the lack of block cost reduction. Sure, it wont be amazing tank but it should be enough do vet base game dungeons or normal DLC ones. This will be almost on the same level as WW DPS. Not that great but "good enough".

Besides, ZOS vision of WW is for the pack leader to be a utility / support - the very definision of a tank & what tank does.

Also, if you are concern about lack of % block cost, then we still have sturdy trait, CP and gear sets.

Btw. Block cost could be added together with taunt (if that will be necesery). I simply fear that ppl will start this stupid nerf war again, so I dont want WW to super strong. I just want it to be decent and current Pack Leader morph on PTS is FAR from beeing at least decent...

Block cost gets above 7000 stamina per second (4 ticks of 1760). In WW form we could get block cost down to about 360 stamina (1440 stamina per second with 4 ticks). So that could be reasonably done with 3 infused block cost glyphs, 100 CP, and 8 sturdy. Any more than that would be too costly of an investment. Still leaves the whole staying in form issue and the fact that tanks tend to use magicka debuffs or cheap stamina ones because that stamina pool is needed for blocking. Also, some dodge and break free reductions don't work correctly at present on WW.

The only way you could stay in form would be if they reverted the passive that increases our duration to the way it was before wolfhunter, making it so that receiving damage rather than dealing it increased our time in form.


If they let us retain weapon passives, Ice staff heavy attack would make your heavy attacks a taunt. That's what I suggested before Wolfhunter. Having Tormentor work with our leap would be another route they could go, but either way, WW tanking toolkit is just worse than any class or setup. You'd be better off tanking with a light armor nightblade.

Jaraal

Tried my Pack Leader on test and wow, talk about gimped! Takes twice as long to clear trash packs in a public dungeon. Pets are all messed up, too.... often standing inside each other, wandering off and teleporting back.... just garbage.

If it goes live like this, I don't see any reason to play the class, TBH.

Tommy_The_Gun

Jaraal wrote: »

Tried my Pack Leader on test and wow, talk about gimped! Takes twice as long to clear trash packs in a public dungeon. Pets are all messed up, too.... often standing inside each other, wandering off and teleporting back.... just garbage.

If it goes live like this, I don't see any reason to play the class, TBH.

Pretty much this.

There is simply no reason to pick Pack Leader morph. There is no scenario or content in ESO where this morph could be useful.
The compensation for the HUGE lack of DMG is simply close to nothing. It is simply too little.

If this is going to be a utility / support morph, then this "compensation" must at lest be noticeable.
But if those changes go live, the "White Wolf" will truly became a creature from legends, mentioned only in tales...

Chrlynsch

Qbiken wrote: »

Hircine´s Fortitude:
I personally think it´s the right call to reduce the effectiveness of this skill since it was overperforming in PvP. No other heal in the game comes remotely close to such a potent heal. What I don´t agree with is how the nerf is done. Reducing the healing or increasing the cost would´ve been a good move, but both at the same time is way overkill. My suggestion is to lower the potency of the heal, but leave the cost as it is.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
@Masel @Alcast (tagging some of the class-reps just in case ^^)

I am really curious what ability/abilites that they compared to Hircine's Fortitude in order to come up with the numbers they did.

Looking at many of the health based heals in the game Hircine Fortitude came out behind nearly all of them. Now almost all of these heals in the game are also HOTS, While Hircine fortitude is a burst heal. But it is hard to sit here and look at vigor and see that it isn't 2x better than Hircine's Fortitude.

Werewolf is still fundamentally flawed when it comes to base design. If this transformation is built on being able to do big single target damage, why is it that its heal is based off of max health (Tank Stat), and is one of the single most expensive magic abilities in the game (Magicka spec, regen and Pools needed).

With the dramatic increase in both cost and decrease in effectiveness, It will be nearly impossible for anyone that isn't a long term PVP werewolf enthusiast to make it "work".

If werewolf is ment to be a DD, Why are they still forced to diversify their stats. Other dds, continue to grow more powerful the more they dump into their respected resources.

Werewolves are not tanks, ZOS said it themselves, get rid of the tank heal.


Make the Roar cost Magicka, this ability is a utility skill.

Hircine's heal, Costs Stamina Compare to Resolving Vigor +25% heal and cost.

Wuuffyy

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

WW is more on the balanced side now. Refs were just. Good job ZOS and Gilliam.

You play on PS4, so maybe you should try not commenting on the PTS state of WW as though you know what the *** you're talking about.

Agreed

cheifsoap

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Hircine´s Fortitude:
I personally think it´s the right call to reduce the effectiveness of this skill since it was overperforming in PvP. No other heal in the game comes remotely close to such a potent heal. What I don´t agree with is how the nerf is done. Reducing the healing or increasing the cost would´ve been a good move, but both at the same time is way overkill. My suggestion is to lower the potency of the heal, but leave the cost as it is.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
@Masel @Alcast (tagging some of the class-reps just in case ^^)

I am really curious what ability/abilites that they compared to Hircine's Fortitude in order to come up with the numbers they did.

Looking at many of the health based heals in the game Hircine Fortitude came out behind nearly all of them. Now almost all of these heals in the game are also HOTS, While Hircine fortitude is a burst heal. But it is hard to sit here and look at vigor and see that it isn't 2x better than Hircine's Fortitude.

Werewolf is still fundamentally flawed when it comes to base design. If this transformation is built on being able to do big single target damage, why is it that its heal is based off of max health (Tank Stat), and is one of the single most expensive magic abilities in the game (Magicka spec, regen and Pools needed).

With the dramatic increase in both cost and decrease in effectiveness, It will be nearly impossible for anyone that isn't a long term PVP werewolf enthusiast to make it "work".

If werewolf is ment to be a DD, Why are they still forced to diversify their stats. Other dds, continue to grow more powerful the more they dump into their respected resources.

Werewolves are not tanks, ZOS said it themselves, get rid of the tank heal.


Make the Roar cost Magicka, this ability is a utility skill.

Hircine's heal, Costs Stamina Compare to Resolving Vigor +25% heal and cost.

I couldn't agree more. I feel like those who claim Hircine's heal is OP really lacks perspective on the scenarios in where its actually OP; the only scenario I see over performing constantly is low level BG's. At any other level its actually under performing, especially when compared other stam based heals in the game. The WW is a single bar of abilities to use vs. other classes where they have a large number of abilities; perhaps rather than nerfing Hircine's into the ground like they're proposing, how about making it a HoT > Burst and make it based off of stam > mag? Its play style would be in line all other stamina classes w/ vigor/forward momentum/etc.

Tommy_The_Gun

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolves are not tanks, ZOS said it themselves

Well... actually they are kinda both DPS & Tank...
The developer comment says that they want Pack Leader to be a utility / support morph, while Werewolf Berserker is supposed to raw DMG / DPS morph.

The problem is though Pack Leader on PTS does not offer ANY useful or relevant utility, and it loses A LOT of dps and is way behind Werewolf Berserker. Simply speaking, the current Pack Leader does not have a purpose.

To me it looks like some form of internal miss-communication at ZOS, so they said it is going to provide utility, but they forgot to add tools that will give this utility.