Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal · July 2019

I feel like the description of what we'll be doing in the Lair of Maarselok is a good metaphor for our thread.
Elden Root (meaning the Bosmer) are threatened by a deathly corruption (detection) that originates from a dragon (Zenimax). Now we must attempt to save the Bosmer together before the corruption can spread.

Ratzkifal · July 2019

haelene wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

One troll is worth 5 pages, at least

I mean, if you're looking at it in terms of keeping the thread active, sure!

That said, not really sure that's the best way to get our point across in a meaningful way. (Not like I really believe ZOS is listening anyways, but a girl can dream.)

Every troll is an opportunity to present our points to them. Of course we should always stay respectful towards them.
Blinkin8r was here some 40 pages ago already. Told us that he pretty much doesn't care what others think about the passive because it works for him. He doesn't mind that detection is useless because to him, it's like swim speed anyway. He never responded to me pointing out that our fall damage is supposed to be "as useless as swim speed and only there to add flavor" as far as I remember. Too bad he didn't bring up any new points now, because it's always fun to deconstruct and debunk arguments.

Uryel · July 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Exactly... And this is one of the reasons I hate PvP, and even more so, I have a strong, burning hatred for PvP whiners. I hate them with so much passion I could smack them with that proverbial sledgehammer in the face. Repeatedly, just to be sure.

Those whiners are the plague of every MMO. They call that "balance", but truly, they are just sore losers who want to win. They are always going about "nerf this" or "nerf that", but when do they ever ask for something to get better ? Oh, yes, when they play it. You'll never find a PvP whiner say "in all fairness, X should be made stronger. It really feels unfair when I break through their defense so easily". You never see that because they want to win, not a fair game. And that's made even worse by the absolute lack of creativity. Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Just a few minutes ago, I noticed a thread made by someone who KNOWS that sorcerers who use pets in PvP use them to hide behind them, that they make smart use of strategic positionning... And request the ability to not target pets but the sorcerer directly. They want the game to be skilled in their stead.

"There is no counter to Bosmer snipers, nerf them !"... Well, sucker, there is no counter to snipers IRL either, if they snipe you, you're dead. That's called "War", the only difference is that you chose to participate in that one instead of being an innocent bystander. Also, there was a counter, it was called "being a dragon knight", before that was nerfed too. And another perfect counter, that would still work today, and it's called "teamplay". Just like you do in real life to counter a sniper : you send someone to backstab them.

I really, really hate those idiots who can't stand losing but still chose to take part in some form of competitive game. If you can't take it kindly to losing, then play WITH people instead of AGAINST people. Simple as that.

They should consider themselves lucky I'm not the person in charge of that game. If I were, next DLC would be called "the three banners war : the end". Once the storyline ties up, Cyrodiil would become a normal PvE zone. No more war, no more battlefield. I think the story would roughly be that the alliances agreed to a truce to push Molag Bal's forces out of the Imperial City. No more combat in Cyrodiil, and in the Imperial City, it's everyone against the daedras. Maybe even have some form of ranking, the alliance that scores the most gives higher chances, in the long run, for their team to ultimately rule the empire. After all, the people will cheer for the heroes who freed them from daedras, right ? And that could be another DLC.

And of course, PvP would disapear from the game. Good riddance. Duels would be outlawed. There MIGHT be one arena for fighting, but that's it. If I'm in a good mood.

Sh*it, I've got ideas to sell 2 more DLCs AND rid the game of PvP entirely, thus removing all questions regarding the so called "balance" that no PvPers actually wants because it would reduce their chances to win. What do you say about that, @ZOS_MattFiror ? I suppose your answer would be something along the line of "nerf Nightblades", anyway.

BlueRaven · July 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Oh my goodness, yes! Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! That's like when they nerfed Swift and Major Expedition sets to slow everybody down because some players couldn't target in Cyrodiil due to server lag. Rather than fix the problems, let's just remove the symptoms! Yet another nerf to PvE (this time to ALL sword and board users) to address one specific PvP issue.

Exactly... And this is one of the reasons I hate PvP, and even more so, I have a strong, burning hatred for PvP whiners. I hate them with so much passion I could smack them with that proverbial sledgehammer in the face. Repeatedly, just to be sure.

Those whiners are the plague of every MMO. They call that "balance", but truly, they are just sore losers who want to win. They are always going about "nerf this" or "nerf that", but when do they ever ask for something to get better ? Oh, yes, when they play it. You'll never find a PvP whiner say "in all fairness, X should be made stronger. It really feels unfair when I break through their defense so easily". You never see that because they want to win, not a fair game. And that's made even worse by the absolute lack of creativity. Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Just a few minutes ago, I noticed a thread made by someone who KNOWS that sorcerers who use pets in PvP use them to hide behind them, that they make smart use of strategic positionning... And request the ability to not target pets but the sorcerer directly. They want the game to be skilled in their stead.

"There is no counter to Bosmer snipers, nerf them !"... Well, sucker, there is no counter to snipers IRL either, if they snipe you, you're dead. That's called "War", the only difference is that you chose to participate in that one instead of being an innocent bystander. Also, there was a counter, it was called "being a dragon knight", before that was nerfed too. And another perfect counter, that would still work today, and it's called "teamplay". Just like you do in real life to counter a sniper : you send someone to backstab them.

I really, really hate those idiots who can't stand losing but still chose to take part in some form of competitive game. If you can't take it kindly to losing, then play WITH people instead of AGAINST people. Simple as that.

They should consider themselves lucky I'm not the person in charge of that game. If I were, next DLC would be called "the three banners war : the end". Once the storyline ties up, Cyrodiil would become a normal PvE zone. No more war, no more battlefield. I think the story would roughly be that the alliances agreed to a truce to push Molag Bal's forces out of the Imperial City. No more combat in Cyrodiil, and in the Imperial City, it's everyone against the daedras. Maybe even have some form of ranking, the alliance that scores the most gives higher chances, in the long run, for their team to ultimately rule the empire. After all, the people will cheer for the heroes who freed them from daedras, right ? And that could be another DLC.

And of course, PvP would disapear from the game. Good riddance. Duels would be outlawed. There MIGHT be one arena for fighting, but that's it. If I'm in a good mood.

Sh*it, I've got ideas to sell 2 more DLCs AND rid the game of PvP entirely, thus removing all questions regarding the so called "balance" that no PvPers actually wants because it would reduce their chances to win. What do you say about that, @ZOS_MattFiror ? I suppose your answer would be something along the line of "nerf Nightblades", anyway.

So true!

I can't say I thought up this phrase but I think about it every time a PvP person asks for nerfs;

Scissors says; "Nerf rock, paper is fine."

BigBragg · July 2019

Some nerfs come about due to PvP, but saying that all or most would be a flat out lie. Read through the dev notes on PTS and patch notes. The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I also do know why the forums are so divisive. Seriously stop trying to force a wedge between PvP and PvE. Many players do and enjoy both. Even if they don't, they are still playing and enjoying the same game. Let them have that, even when it is passionate about things they don't like. People speak up when they care.

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that get ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

Sylvermynx · July 2019

@Uryel - bravo! Very well stated.

HowTaoBrownCow · July 2019

BigBragg wrote: »

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that ge ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

Of course changes are the devs' call. And, when they make changes that the players like or don't like, the devs want the players to give feedback so that they can make the game more enjoyable. Making the game more enjoyable results in pride in their own work, and increased revenue for the company, and salaries and bonuses and more rewarding work for the devs.

The forum is part of that process. So, when the devs remove a thing that's fundamental to many players' enjoyment of their characters, there's not a doubt in my mind that the devs would rather hear about it -- for as long as it continues to bother the players -- than they would like to have players give up, cancel subscriptions, and/or walk away from the game. If we don't continue to express our unhappiness, they'll assume that we've gotten used to it and we no longer care. Or, alternatively, they'll stop hearing about it because we've left the game. I don't think that either of those outcomes are desirable.

As for the wedge... ZOS has always had a difficult job with this game, because the needs and desires of PvE players are very different than the needs and desires of PvP/trial players. (I group PvP and trials together because I think there's a similar level of competition, freneticism, and focus on fine-tuning and min-maxing that's very different from your average PvE quester.) I think that from the beginning they've done an impressive job at managing to provide both -- and many players enjoy both -- but there have been many choices they've made that suggest PvP/trials might be more of a priority for them. I assume that its because those players are more competitive and the competition increases engagement and increased engagement increases revenue -- but that's just a guess and I'm hardly an expert. Regardless, it's not "forcing a wedge" to note that the needs and desires of the two camps are different.

This whole thread is just to point out to ZOS that they're harming the enthusiasm of a chunk of their PvE base, and that it might be worth it to them to find another solution to whatever the Bosmer stealth nerf was supposed to solve. The folks for whom PvE is the primary focus are more lore-driven, and faithfulness to the lore and to what it lends to our characters is important to us. I would hope that this makes it important to ZOS also, and that ultimately they'll listen.

thegreatme · July 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Most people copy builds they have seen somewhere else, they can't even think of a counter because they never thought about what they're doing in the first place. They copy something that they think might make them win, and they use it mindlessly.

Yeah, its always fun when I have someone telling me my custom build is "trash" because its not out of an Alcast endgame guide. When I almost never touch Trials anyway

Works just fine for me to comfortably solo most PvE content, including clearing Pub Dungeon "Group Events" no problem by myself, so I don't see the issue with it.

Even better when they mock me for running a Bosmer sneak-thief because their khajiit is the "master sneak race" now. Nevermind I mained a Bosmer sneak-thief when that wasn't the case.

Jaraal · July 2019

BigBragg wrote: »

Some nerfs come about due to PvP, but saying that all or most would be a flat out lie. Read through the dev notes on PTS and patch notes. The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I also do know why the forums are so divisive. Seriously stop trying to force a wedge between PvP and PvE. Many players do and enjoy both. Even if they don't, they are still playing and enjoying the same game. Let them have that, even when it is passionate about things they don't like. People speak up when they care.

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that get ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

The reason that the Stealthy passive was removed from Bosmer and Khajiit in the first place was the 10% damage bonus from stealth. They could have just removed the damage modifier and called it good, but they knew PvPers would call it a flat out nerf. So they gave Khajiit the stealth back and the ability to set stack to virtual invisibility..... and gave Bosmer a big, steaming pile of who knows what.

Ratzkifal · July 2019

@Uryel You are going a bit off topic there and don't send the kind of vibes our thread wants to send imo.
While I can understand your frustration, this is not always the reason for why things get nerfed and ZOS doesn't always go about it the same way.
Considering that bash still costs nothing when not hitting a target when you are not a Goliath and that the 500weapon damage is probably a buff on most builds compared to before, this isn't such a bad way of handling it I feel. Might be wrong on that of course, but at least ZOS got around reworking the entire morph of the ult, potentially creating even more problems in the process.

Applied to the Bosmer stealth change, you are probably right though. If all this was just to nerf ganking builds, then ZOS definitely took it too far when they removed the radius after they already removed the damage.

Ratzkifal · July 2019

BigBragg wrote: »

Some nerfs come about due to PvP, but saying that all or most would be a flat out lie. Read through the dev notes on PTS and patch notes. The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I also do know why the forums are so divisive. Seriously stop trying to force a wedge between PvP and PvE. Many players do and enjoy both. Even if they don't, they are still playing and enjoying the same game. Let them have that, even when it is passionate about things they don't like. People speak up when they care.

Edit: In the end changes are the devs call, not the players. There are mountains of things that get ignored and go unchanged that players want. Stop taking changes out on each other.

Well said. I also enjoy both and I'd also be the type of PvP player to ask for other classes to get buffed.

BigBragg · July 2019

They way ZoS handles balance changes is a pain point for most people throughout the community. Adjusting the over performing Necro ult didn't require touching shields. I don't know of one person that was happy for sustain changes. I also agree that the Bosmer race changes doesn't fit from a lore perspective, or in a gameplay mechanics. They have a habit of using the proverbial sledgehammer to balance things when a jewelers mallet would be more than sufficient.

thegreatme · July 2019

BigBragg wrote: »

The vast majority of changes are made due to under or over performance in PvE.

I think in this case, the "under-performance" is really just a lot of people too impatient to level to bother with stealth (and mocking the very idea you can or should use stealth to get through your content, unless its thieving, which is optional and for some completely avoided as a regular thing, while others pretty much depend on it as a playstyle).

I've been playing ESO for more than a year. I stealthed my way through a lot of delves and other such places when I was still learning the game or just because that was how I got comfortable with playing.

Suffice to say I didn't see a lot of other players using stealth as anything more than a preventative measure against aggro'ing NPCs while AFK. Actually I'm not sure I've seen people use it for delves and such EVER. Just a lot of Train players plowing through at breakneck speed -- Choo choo! Outta the way!

So there's a lot of people who see it as a useless mechanic, I'm sure, because its not useful to them specifically. Which then gets attributed to "under-performance".

ZOS_RogerJ · July 2019

Greetings! We've locked this thread to prevent any further spiraling and due to its non-constructive nature. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.