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Trying to get ZOS' attention (controversial)

Crow_IX
Crow_IX
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Immediate disclaimer, I am not trying to offend anyone or attack a specific playstyle. My goal is to enlighten people, hopefully ZOS themselves and help the state of the game.

First I want to say that performance is obviously THEE major issue. I know ZOS is working on it and I don't expect a fix any time soon. However there will be some things here that I will address that may be performance related. But I just want to point out the biggest issues with performance. First there is positioning desync where on one end of the game you may seem out of range but still get hit by a dizzy swing or dawnbreaker, incap, what have you. Positioning desync also has an opposite effect as well where a player will be right in front of you but you can't target them because they are out of range. Then there is probably the worst issue, health desync, which a lot of players seem to purposely abuse. First thing that comes to mind is the elemental weapon overload combo, a lot of players know this desyncs health and use it because of that. Another is snipe desync, which I'm sure a lot of the snipe spammers aren't aware of the desync they cause but there are some who abuse it purposely. The last one i want to touch up on is delay. Skill delay is completely random it seems. The game works fine for a bit but then you hit a skill nothing comes out then press some other buttons then suddenly everything comes out. You'll notice delay a lot in things like DK's fossilize, where you get stunned before the animation goes off, cant break free until after the animation goes off, and by then you've already been tagged by 2-3 lashes. Same thing with DK leap where you get stunned before the animation lands on you and can't break free til after. I'm 100% certain all of these issues are already known to most of the player base and the devs themselves but I wanted to touch up on them as a refresher.

Speaking of performance related lets talk about skills misfiring and such. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but it seems like when a skill, for example rally, does the animation and takes your resources but doesn't give you a heal when you recast at 16 seconds, I feel that is more of coding rather than server performance. Another example is the dud streak when you streak and sit in place and it takes your magicka. There are several skills that do this, those two are just off the top of my head. I know everyone has experienced this at least once. With that being said this is definitely a struggle in the game where it makes the game feel more like player vs game rather than PvE or PvP, and I personally started noticing these issues right after the introduction to cast times. Now I do not know if cast times and skill duds are related as I am no coder, not a programmer and have no insight to how any of that works, this is all just speculation but, from a player perspective dud skills were not issues, at least not by much, until after cast times.

Now cast times may not be the cause of skills duds or delay and that could all be completely wrong, it is just a thought. But on the topic of cast times, where this will be very controversial, cast times should be removed and ZOS should bring back block canceling. The technicality and the skill gap was the best thing about ESO, making ESO the most unique and fun and fast paced mmo. ZOS has recently been attacking the skill gap for some time now and it is really bad for the game. Higher end PVE'rs and PVP'rs are technical, fast, precise, they by all means should out perform players who are less so. Which then leads to people making fun montage videos, dungeon or trial speed runs, and how-to's and guild videos, because the ESO community has so many helpful and supportive players who just want to help everyone improve and understand the game better. Making the game less skill based will only saturate the game making it stale and boring or even these current patches which are more frustrating than anything. I know a lot of players are going to back lash at this specific statement because the skill gap is controversial and that is fine, I expect it.

(PVP perspective section)
Continuing off of skill gap, or rather just skill in general this is where I am going to try to not offend people. Personally I don't see the logic in nerfing raw dmg such as Fury and New Moon Acolyte, but buffing proc sets like caluurion or venomous smite alone is such a strong set that it basically nullifies healing, especially since the healing nerf. If I have 4.5k weapon dmg, and my vigor tic is 1.2k and rally, which is a dud 5/7 times, has a heal of about 5k maybe 6k, and then venomous smite is hitting for 1k per second? Forgive me for being so blunt but I feel that PVP balancing just was not very well thought out at this time. If we are going to have such strong procs I think it is fair to have harder proc conditions. To proc off a random crit or for stealth blades out of stealth, is the same as getting free damage. There are other strong proc sets as well but these two just stand out as they have a very high damage output. I've seem that venomous is being addressed but I don't think fixing the AOE is enough. The proc sets with the reduction of healing and lack of animation canceling and then the game's performance, is very frustrating for a lot of players, especially your long time veteran PVP'rs. Balancing right now is a major issue that I feel is being ignored. I know a majority of players will run procs no problem and not even see a balance issue. In fact most will probably say "its in the game use it" or "its easy to get" but what is that going to do other than add more imbalance to the game? The procs aren't going to all of a sudden make me out heal venomous just because I'm running it. Again I'm not trying to offend anyone or anyone's playstyle, but this does seem to be an ignored issue in the game which is damaging the game due to the lack of counter play to the current popular proc sets, which will only be worse next patch.

(PVP Perspective section)
To touch up a bit more on the matters of PVP balancing, I want to address healing, or self healing rather. With the current reduction of self healing the game feels lack luster. It's really difficult to out heal the current meta being mostly procs and malacath dots, when it's an out numbered fight healing is almost useless. Let me just say that fighting outnumbered was one of the most thrilling things about ESO's PVP. While most people see 1vX as 1 good player smashing on several new or not as good players, yeah that is usually the case but when it's 1 good player vs 2-3 decent players, with the reduction of healing, proc meta, mythic rings for insane damage, changes to impen, where is the counter play? I am pretty sure ZOS wanted to nerf tanks in PVP or Solo players in general, but when a solo player kills 5 people who use one ability and don't heal themselves or have not as good buff management, does that really justify nerfing solo playstyle and skill gap? Now I am not saying that 1vX is impossible but it's definitely harder and much more relying on LOS (line of sight) and sustain rather than healing and bursting. You'll find it to be a much less brawling meta and a more kite away and pick people off slowly, which is fine but it's limiting gameplay and playstyles, which makes the game less appealing for a lot of players. I know it is not just 1vX'rs or really good players who get frustrated dying because they can't out heal procs and malacath dots, I'm very sure it has frustrated almost every player at least a few times. I believe reverting the healing could be the first step to bringing ESO PVP back to a more enjoyable experience.

So we come to the last thing I want to bring to light and that is ZOS' attempt to nerf skill gap. This is probably the most controversial thing to bring up but I feel it is important it be talked about. Firstly, I think nerfing skill gap is by far the worst decision you could make for the health of the game, and even from a business perspective. Obviously the attempt it to not make newer players feel so late to the game but they are. But that doesn't mean they wont get good in time. Before ZOS decided to nerf APM by introducing cast times and such I always related ESO to Super Smash Bros Melee, in terms of tech skill. For those of you who don't know about melee i suggest you check it out because it is such a hype, high skill, chaotic interaction, and over all a fun game even just to spectate. So just to quickly compare ESO's animation canceling was much like L canceling in Melee, same principle. Buff management and LOS can be related to skills like wavedashing, platform movement, then blocking and roll dodge could be related to spot dodging and shielding. Then of course the combos. The tech skill in both games provided fun and crazy options, diversity in gameplay. I understand from a less technical viewpoint that the game was frustrating and now it feels more "balanced" but it's actually just nerfing skill gap, which ZOS has literally stated in their "PTS Patch Notes: Testing Ideas for Light & Heavy Attacks in Combat" post, saying they intend to nerf skill gap because as it is, its too high and completely honest here, there was not much to tech skill, just animation canceling which is simply blocking after a skill, dodging after a skill, or weapon swapping after a skill. What makes a good player good is their ability to decision make, choosing what skill to use, how to ani cancel, reading other players. Even today some of this remains but ZOS added a hard counter in the form of healing nerf, proc sets, class reworks. What happened was ZOS took the chance and tried to make the game "balanced" for casual players but it forced a very frustrating meta and a lack luster PVP experience. Personally speaking I can't say if PVE'rs appreciated the tech skill, I know it was a big thing for DPS to be good at it and be fast but I'm not sure if PVE performs just as fine without it. When it comes down to it I truely believe nerfing APM and nerfing skill gap was the biggest mistake and I really really think ZOS needs to reverse this direction of ESO.

I know... I KNOW, this post will more than likely get a lot of back lash, I'm very much expecting it, especially since PVP'ers are the smaller population of ESO and the good players are far in few now, they basically all know each other in their own PVP community, so I am not expecting anything really but disagreements but if it gets people talking then I think there could be hope for the game. Again I didn't want to offend anyone, I was not trying to attack anyone or any playstyle. My goal here was simple to shed some light on the issues I've seen through just this last 8 months or so and hopefully get ZOS' attention and open their eyes to the real frustration in PVP especially but also in ESO in general.
Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Mettaricana
    Mettaricana
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    Long winded but not wrong i just don't think zenimax cares about the issue its not been fixed since the early launch days server or coding if its being heard its by someone who can't or isn't allowed to fix it.
    I'm everything that doesn't belong in the pact but i'm there anyway...
  • volkeswagon
    volkeswagon
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    Well at first I thought here we go with another pvp hardcore player complaining about performance but i don't think this came across too bad. Even though it's above my knowledge and interest it certainly goes into great detail about issues that I think ZOS could find it useful in improving the game
    Edited by volkeswagon on July 22, 2020 2:57AM
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Long winded but not wrong i just don't think zenimax cares about the issue its not been fixed since the early launch days server or coding if its being heard its by someone who can't or isn't allowed to fix it.

    i think thats the problem right? its being ignored and we need to get more people to talk about it. bring it to light. make it to where it is undeniably an issue.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Well at first I thought here we go with another pvp hardcore player complaining about performance but i don't think this came across too bad. Even though it's above my knowledge and interest it certainly goes into great detail about issues that I think ZOS could find it useful in improving the game

    I appreciate the open mind. Although I would consider myself a hardcore pvp'er (which by no means means I am good at the game) I wanted to address base issues that effect the game as a whole and can improve the game as a whole.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Ectheliontnacil
    Ectheliontnacil
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    Crow_IX wrote: »
    Now cast times may not be the cause of skills duds or delay and that could all be completely wrong, it is just a thought. But on the topic of cast times, where this will be very controversial, cast times should be removed and ZOS should bring back block canceling. The technicality and the skill gap was the best thing about ESO, making ESO the most unique and fun and fast paced mmo. ZOS has recently been attacking the skill gap for some time now and it is really bad for the game. Higher end PVE'rs and PVP'rs are technical, fast, precise, they by all means should out perform players who are less so.

    Apart from performance this is easily the biggest issue with eso atm. I couldn't agree more with the point you're making. The game feels so much more sluggish already and they're adding even more cast times to ultis!!!

    Also they didn't even manage to implement the block cancelling removal correctly! Some skills can still be block cancelled (like assassins will, deep fissure etc.) so block cancelling has become this buggy and confusing mess. It's not entirely gone but it doesn't really work anymore either. :/


  • DTStormfox
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    Crow_IX wrote: »
    I know... I KNOW, this post will more than likely get a lot of back lash...

    Actually, no. I believe the silent majority agrees with your post. Just like you, I've posted a related threat on issues that seem (mostly) server-side lag related in April: ZOS you really need to fix this (PvP) - Update: now also in PvE
    I have also posted this on my blog: Is The Elder Scrolls Online worth playing in 2020?

    To keep matters short: You are not alone in this. There are plenty of threads on the Forums by players that experience the same issues as you and I mentioned. Despite the effort we put into writing down such extensive posts and reaching out to ZOS to get some attention to solve the issues, it doesn't seem like ZOS cares. Moderators will occasionally sweep in and remove any baiting and unrelated posts (don't take this as an offence), but I highly doubt it that our threads are ever read by the developers.

    Most of the issues you, others, and I mention are, in a sense, game-breaking because it kills the fun. To me, most of the PvP fun has turned into frustration. Every time I join a Cyrodill server, I am greeted by lag and server-side problems. Battlegrounds does not have much of the lag, but it does have most of the desyncs and balancing problems that you mentioned. I am not quitting ESO yet, but I am very close to quitting.
    ESO was better in the good old days when it only crashed because your computer was too much potato to have 50+ players on your screen at the same time.

    Is Malacath’s Band of Brutality worth it?

    New: Stamina Nightblade Non-CP PvP Battlegrounds build (Greymoor patch)


  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Crow_IX wrote: »
    Now cast times may not be the cause of skills duds or delay and that could all be completely wrong, it is just a thought. But on the topic of cast times, where this will be very controversial, cast times should be removed and ZOS should bring back block canceling. The technicality and the skill gap was the best thing about ESO, making ESO the most unique and fun and fast paced mmo. ZOS has recently been attacking the skill gap for some time now and it is really bad for the game. Higher end PVE'rs and PVP'rs are technical, fast, precise, they by all means should out perform players who are less so.

    Apart from performance this is easily the biggest issue with eso atm. I couldn't agree more with the point you're making. The game feels so much more sluggish already and they're adding even more cast times to ultis!!!

    Also they didn't even manage to implement the block cancelling removal correctly! Some skills can still be block cancelled (like assassins will, deep fissure etc.) so block cancelling has become this buggy and confusing mess. It's not entirely gone but it doesn't really work anymore either. :/


    right, rally can still be block canceled just fine and other skills like vigor can be bash canceled. Which ultimately led to the skills just feeling unpleasant and then we get this bugs that hurt gameplay. I would love to see a return of the block cancel skill gap and removal of cast times to have the game more fluid and fun and fast paced, although i doubt we will see that. None the less i appreciate the support.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    DTStormfox wrote: »
    Crow_IX wrote: »
    I know... I KNOW, this post will more than likely get a lot of back lash...

    Actually, no. I believe the silent majority agrees with your post. Just like you, I've posted a related threat on issues that seem (mostly) server-side lag related in April: ZOS you really need to fix this (PvP) - Update: now also in PvE
    I have also posted this on my blog: Is The Elder Scrolls Online worth playing in 2020?

    To keep matters short: You are not alone in this. There are plenty of threads on the Forums by players that experience the same issues as you and I mentioned. Despite the effort we put into writing down such extensive posts and reaching out to ZOS to get some attention to solve the issues, it doesn't seem like ZOS cares. Moderators will occasionally sweep in and remove any baiting and unrelated posts (don't take this as an offence), but I highly doubt it that our threads are ever read by the developers.

    Most of the issues you, others, and I mention are, in a sense, game-breaking because it kills the fun. To me, most of the PvP fun has turned into frustration. Every time I join a Cyrodill server, I am greeted by lag and server-side problems. Battlegrounds does not have much of the lag, but it does have most of the desyncs and balancing problems that you mentioned. I am not quitting ESO yet, but I am very close to quitting.

    it's sad to see so many players leave the game as it is one of the most unique and skill based mmo's out there, but that is quickly being diminished and I too am thinking about going to wow or back to ff14 after this next patch. But I don't want to let what used to be my favorite game, die out without a fight. I will support your posts as well and I appreciate the support in mine. It is reassuring to know that a lot of other people share a similar view point as I do. Hopefully we can get more people to speak up and bring attention to it although like you said I also doubt ZOS will make any changes in this direction, at least we can say we tried before moving on.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Xargas13
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    I read only PvP section and I agree, made a couple of posts about PvP in this expansion myself. The problem is not only heal, but the damage too, I don't know about world PvP, but in BGs it's just not fun anymore, no use using defensive abilities etc, just stun and damage. And I am not fan of proc sets from the beginning since I started playing this game, it's okay in PvE I guess, but in PvP, it kills much faster and removes a player input/interaction, I don't want to expand on this, but I will say this, do you know those mobile games that plays itself? That's a proc set.
  • Gundug
    Gundug
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    I disagree that self healing in PVP should be increased again. If anything, it should be nonexistent. I understand skillful PVPers enjoy the idea of toying with groups of unskilled players for long periods of time, sometimes picking off one or two, but this type of gameplay really just displays the tremendous imbalance in setups possible. I have never played any multiplayer game where anyone, outside of blatant cheaters, could survive against a group of players hitting them. When new players come to Cyrodiil and see this, what sort of impression do you think they take away from it? No one enjoys being killed, and good PVPers enjoy reaping the rewards of the time and effort they have put into their setups, but the PVP game would be much healthier if everyone stood some chance of at least doing damage, and possibly even killing someone.

    If Joe Newbie attacks me in Battlegrounds, the outcome should be based on how well we play against each other, not my setup allowing me to attack him with impunity while he doesn’t inflict a scratch on me. If he manages to get some hits on me, I should be hurt. If his teammate Jane Newbie shows up, I should be in trouble. This is where experience and better tactics might save the day for me, or the two of them might simply overwhelm me.

    A great deal of this problem, for PVP and PVE, stems from the way ZOS has made the difference in power given by various gear and skill setups far too great. It’s impossible to balance a game where some damage dealers are outputting 80k DPS, where others are hitting 10k. I acknowledge the need for players to develop their own skills to achieve higher numbers, but this gap results in content that varies wildly from trivial to ludicrously difficult. It shows, in how ZOS is having a great deal of difficulty finding a good balance in the difficulty of more recent content, given the increase in instant death mechanics in trials and dungeons. The Kyne’s Aegis trial is particularly egregious, with tank killing trash mobs. There is a certain amount of experience and smart tactics required to clear them, which is not a bad thing, but it’s gotten to a point where we suffer binary gameplay: play the mechanic perfectly and you should succeed, make a slight mistake and the group wipes.

    The trouble is, instead of doing the difficult thing, which would be to massively reduce the power of everything so the effect of gear and skill choices could be made subtle, thus enabling significantly easier difficulty balancing, ZOS will continue adding new gear that gradually creeps the power imbalance even wider.
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Xargas13 wrote: »
    I read only PvP section and I agree, made a couple of posts about PvP in this expansion myself. The problem is not only heal, but the damage too, I don't know about world PvP, but in BGs it's just not fun anymore, no use using defensive abilities etc, just stun and damage. And I am not fan of proc sets from the beginning since I started playing this game, it's okay in PvE I guess, but in PvP, it kills much faster and removes a player input/interaction, I don't want to expand on this, but I will say this, do you know those mobile games that plays itself? That's a proc set.

    I'm glad you made this point as I didn't want to dive too deep into it in my post due to it is already super long. Personally I feel ZOS has completely ignored the NO CP side of PVP, including BGs. NO CP, which is where I main'ed PVP since in my eyes it was more balance, has just become all proc sets and raw dmg. It really seems like proc sets are meta in NO CP because its the most and the easiest damage and there is little to no counter play. NO CP i feel is extremely ignored and needs attention.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Xargas13
    Xargas13
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    Gundug wrote: »
    I disagree that self healing in PVP should be increased again. If anything, it should be nonexistent. I understand skillful PVPers enjoy the idea of toying with groups of unskilled players for long periods of time, sometimes picking off one or two, but this type of gameplay really just displays the tremendous imbalance in setups possible. I have never played any multiplayer game where anyone, outside of blatant cheaters, could survive against a group of players hitting them. When new players come to Cyrodiil and see this, what sort of impression do you think they take away from it? No one enjoys being killed, and good PVPers enjoy reaping the rewards of the time and effort they have put into their setups, but the PVP game would be much healthier if everyone stood some chance of at least doing damage, and possibly even killing someone.

    If Joe Newbie attacks me in Battlegrounds, the outcome should be based on how well we play against each other, not my setup allowing me to attack him with impunity while he doesn’t inflict a scratch on me. If he manages to get some hits on me, I should be hurt. If his teammate Jane Newbie shows up, I should be in trouble. This is where experience and better tactics might save the day for me, or the two of them might simply overwhelm me.

    A great deal of this problem, for PVP and PVE, stems from the way ZOS has made the difference in power given by various gear and skill setups far too great. It’s impossible to balance a game where some damage dealers are outputting 80k DPS, where others are hitting 10k. I acknowledge the need for players to develop their own skills to achieve higher numbers, but this gap results in content that varies wildly from trivial to ludicrously difficult. It shows, in how ZOS is having a great deal of difficulty finding a good balance in the difficulty of more recent content, given the increase in instant death mechanics in trials and dungeons. The Kyne’s Aegis trial is particularly egregious, with tank killing trash mobs. There is a certain amount of experience and smart tactics required to clear them, which is not a bad thing, but it’s gotten to a point where we suffer binary gameplay: play the mechanic perfectly and you should succeed, make a slight mistake and the group wipes.

    The trouble is, instead of doing the difficult thing, which would be to massively reduce the power of everything so the effect of gear and skill choices could be made subtle, thus enabling significantly easier difficulty balancing, ZOS will continue adding new gear that gradually creeps the power imbalance even wider.

    That's a good take on it, it is funny how there are so much sets in the game, that in theory should add a lot of play styles, but unless you figure out what works you will be useless, all gear at max level is almost the same, just different bonuses, so it is really hard to figure out with what you should play and what is considered progression unless you go online and read about it. Which shouldn't be the case, it is the first game where I had to do it, and it says a lot since it's by far not my first game or MMO. Some become literally untouchable while others die in one second while having maxed out gear.... As for healing, I think some classes require it, like in any other MMO there should be classes that are able to heal and do damage, while others just do damage but have higher defense. Healing thing probably won't change though, because it was in the game since day one and there were no major overhauls in this sense as far as I am aware of.
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Gundug wrote: »
    I disagree that self healing in PVP should be increased again. If anything, it should be nonexistent. I understand skillful PVPers enjoy the idea of toying with groups of unskilled players for long periods of time, sometimes picking off one or two, but this type of gameplay really just displays the tremendous imbalance in setups possible. I have never played any multiplayer game where anyone, outside of blatant cheaters, could survive against a group of players hitting them. When new players come to Cyrodiil and see this, what sort of impression do you think they take away from it? No one enjoys being killed, and good PVPers enjoy reaping the rewards of the time and effort they have put into their setups, but the PVP game would be much healthier if everyone stood some chance of at least doing damage, and possibly even killing someone.

    If Joe Newbie attacks me in Battlegrounds, the outcome should be based on how well we play against each other, not my setup allowing me to attack him with impunity while he doesn’t inflict a scratch on me. If he manages to get some hits on me, I should be hurt. If his teammate Jane Newbie shows up, I should be in trouble. This is where experience and better tactics might save the day for me, or the two of them might simply overwhelm me.

    A great deal of this problem, for PVP and PVE, stems from the way ZOS has made the difference in power given by various gear and skill setups far too great. It’s impossible to balance a game where some damage dealers are outputting 80k DPS, where others are hitting 10k. I acknowledge the need for players to develop their own skills to achieve higher numbers, but this gap results in content that varies wildly from trivial to ludicrously difficult. It shows, in how ZOS is having a great deal of difficulty finding a good balance in the difficulty of more recent content, given the increase in instant death mechanics in trials and dungeons. The Kyne’s Aegis trial is particularly egregious, with tank killing trash mobs. There is a certain amount of experience and smart tactics required to clear them, which is not a bad thing, but it’s gotten to a point where we suffer binary gameplay: play the mechanic perfectly and you should succeed, make a slight mistake and the group wipes.

    The trouble is, instead of doing the difficult thing, which would be to massively reduce the power of everything so the effect of gear and skill choices could be made subtle, thus enabling significantly easier difficulty balancing, ZOS will continue adding new gear that gradually creeps the power imbalance even wider.

    I appreciate your insight and your respectful argument.

    First I want to say that I am glad there are people disagreeing and respectfully at that. I can understand where you are coming from but I want to point out a few things here, which you are more likely going to disagree with and that is fine, but if I can convert your opinion then great. So I shall try.

    For your first section, I'd like to point out that it isn't just skillful players but players trying to improve and get better as well. Players testing their limits. I also want to make a point that a lot of times when a player sees their own faction zerging down another group they often just leave since that isn't a testament to their skills (not to say all good players follow this). It's an "honor among thieves" kind of thing, you know? Do you have it or do you not. I value your input truly, I don't want you to think otherwise. However I think self healing is essential to ESO and it's PVP combat. I get that new players can become quickly frustrated with having a group of 5+ and being wiped by a single player, well because that happens a lot I want to point out a few things. First there was never a guide for PVP saying impen was the meta trait and such and such skills were meta or will or wont work. That is something all of us had to figure out by either years of experience or asking more experienced players or a long time of trial and error. The game is not easy, and people need to understand this. By today even with reduced healing and I truly believe even without self healing, the higher skilled players will still be able to kill those less skilled because they know to keep buffs up and the skill and damage rotation. The frustration you speak of will always exist if there are experienced players.

    I fully agree with your second section here about joe newbie, however, the game in its current state the more experienced player in BGs is more likely to die because the reduction to healing, the nerf to apm, and the increase of damage and proc sets. I stated earlier that venomous alone can nullify a vigor tic, rendering that self heal (which only lasts for 6 seconds) useless. It is not impossible to outplay people if you are a better player but it almost feels that way with the way ZOS is taking the game. Is it really the better player winning if you're using a set that does 1k damage or more per second for 10 seconds to a heal that has been nerfed to almost 1k per second for 6 seconds and costs stamina? This game is so unique in terms of being able to play how you want and being able to play solo and that portion of the game is dying thus narrowing playstyle which in turn saturates the game. Don't lose sight of the over all picture.

    I can see where you're coming from in your third post here but I'd like to respectfully disagree. For PVE specifically I'd like to point out that trial gear works best here, but not so much in PVP. PVP has been for a while now damage sets and some times sustain sets, with a mix of a few unique builds. Now I do want to point out that there are too many sets in the game for ZOS to balance and I do agree there, but I don't think sets should be as focused as they are now. As an example, when animation canceling or block canceling rather, was popular and the meta, there was more build diversity because people relied less on what they are running and more on skill. Now it's just wear what gives you the most damage and make sure it is gold and you're good to go. That to me seems lack luster, feel free to disagree, again a appreciate the respectful disagreement. The last thing I want to say here is that unfortunately there will always be some way to cheese mechanics in trials/dungeons/endgame pve content because the mobs just aren't as smart as humans. I myself am guilty of abusing mechanics in vDSA, I can't lie. Personally I find PVE really boring and just wanted to get it over with. I think that will always be a tough thing to balance.

    This last point of yours is undeniable. Vets have seen it time and time again. The old proc meta, the introduction of sload's, and so on. ZOS by all means will continue to make new sets and there by all means will be an imbalance, but that doesn't mean we cant push ZOS in a better directions. A great example to use here is the original Stuhn's set. Stuhn's as it is, has an armor pen of 5k or so, but it's original set bonus was 15k in PTS notes. Now obviously 15k is way too much even for PVE, but that should have been logical and a huge red flag that should have never met the PTS notes in the first place. It Really seems like ZOS doesn't initially consider the power of sets til after the fact, and even then most are over tuned. I know ZOS will keep making strong proc sets, but if we can push them in a direction of balance rather than a direction of hit or miss, then we as a community have hope for true balance.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • BigBragg
    BigBragg
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    I think wanting the game to function on a basic level is a pretty acceptable request. Look at the player, that is where they are. Look at a resource bar, that is what you have. Press a skill button, skill goes off. Basic, right?
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
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    Gundug wrote: »
    I disagree that self healing in PVP should be increased again. If anything, it should be nonexistent. I understand skillful PVPers enjoy the idea of toying with groups of unskilled players for long periods of time, sometimes picking off one or two, but this type of gameplay really just displays the tremendous imbalance in setups possible. I have never played any multiplayer game where anyone, outside of blatant cheaters, could survive against a group of players hitting them. When new players come to Cyrodiil and see this, what sort of impression do you think they take away from it? No one enjoys being killed, and good PVPers enjoy reaping the rewards of the time and effort they have put into their setups, but the PVP game would be much healthier if everyone stood some chance of at least doing damage, and possibly even killing someone.

    If Joe Newbie attacks me in Battlegrounds, the outcome should be based on how well we play against each other, not my setup allowing me to attack him with impunity while he doesn’t inflict a scratch on me. If he manages to get some hits on me, I should be hurt. If his teammate Jane Newbie shows up, I should be in trouble. This is where experience and better tactics might save the day for me, or the two of them might simply overwhelm me.

    A great deal of this problem, for PVP and PVE, stems from the way ZOS has made the difference in power given by various gear and skill setups far too great. It’s impossible to balance a game where some damage dealers are outputting 80k DPS, where others are hitting 10k. I acknowledge the need for players to develop their own skills to achieve higher numbers, but this gap results in content that varies wildly from trivial to ludicrously difficult. It shows, in how ZOS is having a great deal of difficulty finding a good balance in the difficulty of more recent content, given the increase in instant death mechanics in trials and dungeons. The Kyne’s Aegis trial is particularly egregious, with tank killing trash mobs. There is a certain amount of experience and smart tactics required to clear them, which is not a bad thing, but it’s gotten to a point where we suffer binary gameplay: play the mechanic perfectly and you should succeed, make a slight mistake and the group wipes.

    The trouble is, instead of doing the difficult thing, which would be to massively reduce the power of everything so the effect of gear and skill choices could be made subtle, thus enabling significantly easier difficulty balancing, ZOS will continue adding new gear that gradually creeps the power imbalance even wider.

    If healing were 'nonexistent' or a small experienced group will be able to put out more damage in a tight enough window and effectively one shot a much larger force. We'd then see the same people complaining. The 10% nerf was enough to reduce over-survivability for high efficiency solo/small group players while leaving the larger pug groups with multiple healers effectively unscathed. Lower it too much and it will disproportionately harm those large / lower skill level groups you are trying to help.

    I think healing is in a fine spot after the nerf. Larger groups still maintain an understandable advantage while the current frustration with fighting outnumbered can be mostly attributed to the game not performing as it should. Whether its server instability or a result of the inconsistent and frankly buggy changes they made to animations some time ago, higher skilled players are impacted far more and therefore get understandably frustrated. Consider if imperfect equipment were given to a pro in any field. They would notice imperfections far more than a novice would, particularly if those imperfections effected their ability to perform at their best and it would lead to frustration.

    As for gear, while it plays a part, it is not nearly the largest contributing factor to the effectiveness of different players. An experience player will put out more damage and survive longer than a less experienced player regardless of what they put on in both PvE and PvP. Understanding of class / sklls, positioning, and playstyle/build synergy all contribute more to effectiveness than gear and should always remain that way as it rewards knowledge gained from playing the game. However, you don't want to reduce effectiveness of choice as that will end up harming much of the variety that gives the game its color, for lack of a better word. In ESO, character variety comes, in large part, from the different sets and how they can be used to make unique builds.

    That being said, standardization is needed in any game. Not the reduction of difference between sets but the establishment of rules for how skills and gear are designed. In the past skill and item changes haven't seemed to follow any rule or pattern and it has directly led to overperforming or underperforming sets and skills as well as seemingly illogical changes from patch to patch. With the recent patches and especially the next patch, ZOS looks to be going in the direction of standardizing overperforming sets (looking at new moon) and bringing older sets up to par with the standard, particularly pertaining to stats. While I don't necessarily have faith that every new set in the future will fall in line with the standard being set, the fact that it appears they are finally establishing standards / rules for how sets are designed is a large step in the right direction.
  • Salvas_Aren
    Salvas_Aren
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    You should have started your post with "I've hidden some exploits in the text" to make sure they read such a long essay. :D
    It just works, it just works, little lies, stunning shows,
    people buy, money flows, it just works.
    It just works, it just works, overpriced open worlds,
    earnings rise, take my word: IT JUST WORKS!

    I nerfed my wallet in Jan 2017. I altered my wallet status to closed in May 2019.
  • Icarus42
    Icarus42
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    Thank you Crow_IX for posting this in the forums. Spot on! The skill "dud's", did not know what to call that, aptly named!

    The skill "dud" has become a major issue especially with streak in my own personal experience. I have also experienced not being able to target players repeatedly, seems to happen the most with crystal frag proc not wanting to fire..

    Don't know if it related to the disappearing player problem I have also been experiencing, but that could be because my settings are too low (need to test that one). Anyway the disappearing player problem is when, I am guessing, but when more than 50 or so players are on the screen at once, the game randomly "disappears" players, maybe because the server is overloaded and can't render them? IDK...

    Anyway you covered a lot of ground in this post, so many things addressed, that I am sure most of us have experienced. Also could'nt agree with you more on the skill gap thing... going to hop off before I type out my welcome! Anyway kudos, hope this one stays on the forums for awhile :smile:
    Ebonheart Pact - PC NA - Magicka Sorcerer
  • SweepsAllClowns
    SweepsAllClowns
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    This kind of long and accurate post with opinions and explaining things too much simply doesn't get the attention of Z0S at all, however it's very easy to reach for some fast attention with some nonconstructive post or comment, sadly this forum isn't much about the actual ESO game nowadays. Also how can you know that Z0S is actually working on performance, the actual results over the past years in the game don't quite support such statement.
  • amm7sb14_ESO
    amm7sb14_ESO
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    Gundug wrote: »
    I disagree that self healing in PVP should be increased again. If anything, it should be nonexistent. I understand skillful PVPers enjoy the idea of toying with groups of unskilled players for long periods of time, sometimes picking off one or two, but this type of gameplay really just displays the tremendous imbalance in setups possible. I have never played any multiplayer game where anyone, outside of blatant cheaters, could survive against a group of players hitting them. When new players come to Cyrodiil and see this, what sort of impression do you think they take away from it? No one enjoys being killed, and good PVPers enjoy reaping the rewards of the time and effort they have put into their setups, but the PVP game would be much healthier if everyone stood some chance of at least doing damage, and possibly even killing someone.

    If Joe Newbie attacks me in Battlegrounds, the outcome should be based on how well we play against each other, not my setup allowing me to attack him with impunity while he doesn’t inflict a scratch on me. If he manages to get some hits on me, I should be hurt. If his teammate Jane Newbie shows up, I should be in trouble. This is where experience and better tactics might save the day for me, or the two of them might simply overwhelm me.

    A great deal of this problem, for PVP and PVE, stems from the way ZOS has made the difference in power given by various gear and skill setups far too great. It’s impossible to balance a game where some damage dealers are outputting 80k DPS, where others are hitting 10k. I acknowledge the need for players to develop their own skills to achieve higher numbers, but this gap results in content that varies wildly from trivial to ludicrously difficult. It shows, in how ZOS is having a great deal of difficulty finding a good balance in the difficulty of more recent content, given the increase in instant death mechanics in trials and dungeons. The Kyne’s Aegis trial is particularly egregious, with tank killing trash mobs. There is a certain amount of experience and smart tactics required to clear them, which is not a bad thing, but it’s gotten to a point where we suffer binary gameplay: play the mechanic perfectly and you should succeed, make a slight mistake and the group wipes.

    The trouble is, instead of doing the difficult thing, which would be to massively reduce the power of everything so the effect of gear and skill choices could be made subtle, thus enabling significantly easier difficulty balancing, ZOS will continue adding new gear that gradually creeps the power imbalance even wider.

    I agree with this 100%
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    Icarus42 wrote: »
    Thank you Crow_IX for posting this in the forums. Spot on! The skill "dud's", did not know what to call that, aptly named!

    The skill "dud" has become a major issue especially with streak in my own personal experience. I have also experienced not being able to target players repeatedly, seems to happen the most with crystal frag proc not wanting to fire..

    Don't know if it related to the disappearing player problem I have also been experiencing, but that could be because my settings are too low (need to test that one). Anyway the disappearing player problem is when, I am guessing, but when more than 50 or so players are on the screen at once, the game randomly "disappears" players, maybe because the server is overloaded and can't render them? IDK...

    Anyway you covered a lot of ground in this post, so many things addressed, that I am sure most of us have experienced. Also could'nt agree with you more on the skill gap thing... going to hop off before I type out my welcome! Anyway kudos, hope this one stays on the forums for awhile :smile:

    thanks i appreciate it, i just need help getting the word out there
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    This kind of long and accurate post with opinions and explaining things too much simply doesn't get the attention of Z0S at all, however it's very easy to reach for some fast attention with some nonconstructive post or comment, sadly this forum isn't much about the actual ESO game nowadays. Also how can you know that Z0S is actually working on performance, the actual results over the past years in the game don't quite support such statement.

    it's an unfortunate fact but just like [snip] our voices wont be heard if we dont speak. we need to participate in zos' community to let them know we are still here

    [edited for inappropriate content]
    Edited by ZOS_RachelM on July 30, 2020 2:33PM
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • coletas
    coletas
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    why dont make campaigns for novice people (with another Battle Spirit for a more paced play), others for zergs vs zergs (with billions of aoes, etc) and leave the old player base playing their game as usual?
  • BisDasBlutGefriert
    BisDasBlutGefriert
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    All I can say after reading all of these is simply WOW! In a very good way! Lots of excellent info here, lots of great discussions, and lots of even greater individuals respecting each other!

    Keep it up! You are all AMAZING!!
    ~There’s a positive in every negative. Sometimes the positive is harder to find than other times, but there is ALWAYS one there~
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    coletas wrote: »
    why dont make campaigns for novice people (with another Battle Spirit for a more paced play), others for zergs vs zergs (with billions of aoes, etc) and leave the old player base playing their game as usual?

    It's a good idea for sure but in order for this to work effectively ESO's PvP needs a bigger population. If ZOS were to do this, it would look a lot like another below 50 campaign, pretty dead. Plus I'm sure vet players would go in from time to time just to pub stomp, which would defeat the purpose. It is a fair thought though.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
  • Crow_IX
    Crow_IX
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    All I can say after reading all of these is simply WOW! In a very good way! Lots of excellent info here, lots of great discussions, and lots of even greater individuals respecting each other!

    Keep it up! You are all AMAZING!!

    goes to show how good the eso community is right? i appreciate your enthusiasm, feel free to join in the conversations.
    Worst stamblade NA (:
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