deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

I get it, RPG is role playing game. But the majority of players aren’t role players so to speak. They play on the side of performance. Most people would rather have balanced characters, fix game breaking issues, than a particular race being lore friendly. Now I’m by no way saying your wrong because your vote counts too, as a person playing the game.

What I want to know from y’all, is what would you sacrifice to just have sneak back? As far as I’m concerned I like the changes. I like the stamina. I like the roll dodge penetration. I like the stamina recovery. Are you willing to get rid of these just for sneak? To screw over a huge amount of players for something that, honestly, doesn’t add much in comparison BUT role play and lore?

I’d be fine with ADDING the sneak to say, the stamina recovery passive for wood elf. But getting rid of anything that we wood elves have now just for sneak is a bit ridiculous.

So what is it you’re really willing to give up, or make others give up, to get your sneak back? Because I can totally get on the band wagon if you’d argue to add sneak while keeping the current passives how they are. But if you want to remove something just for sneak, I’ll fight against that all day.

People who ask what we want as if we haven’t said it over and over...

You “fight against that all day?” For 25 years we had this passive and we must be the ones who stop fighting?

From page 1, second post of the main thread:

max_only wrote: »

TLDR for entire thread:

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Comprehensive collection of arguments against the complete removal of stealth related Bosmer passives

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, due to the severe lack of detectable enemies and/or objects
  making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons, Delves and PvP by making it easier to sneak past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Removing stealthiness from Bosmer breaks with tradition as every game starting with Arena described Bosmer as great sneak thieves.
  Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
  
  Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
  
  Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
  
  Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion
  
  Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
  
  Elder Scrolls Online
  
• Stealth has always been an integral part of Bosmer culture and lore.
  • The Rite of Theft is a war custom of the tribal Woodelfs in which a tribe raids another to steal the valuable possessions or people for ransom. The larger the stolen object, the more prestige it has. While deaths do occur, these raids are generally not deadly due to the stealthy nature of this war custom. "Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth" - Mistral Aurelian Teriscor
  • The Bosmer's most famous poem is called "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding". Although we have never seen this poem, it has been mentioned several times, even within the books of ESO. Sources for this are the "Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion", "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer" (ESO) as well as "A Dance in Fire, Book 1". All these sources are quoting it to be the most famous poem and two of them also mention the forest-coupling ability.
  • Bosmer are known to possess an ability called "forest-coupling" that allows them to camouflage themselves in proximity to plantlife. This ability, in conjunction with being prone to desertion, is described as the reason why the Colovian armies stopped using the superior Bosmer archers in their legions after a failed experiment in the War of Rihad. It is said that "they would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable." While this can be interpreted as exaggeration, their superior stealth still factored into them not being commonly recruited into archer regiments for the Empire. It should be considered that the Imperial Legion is one of the most tactically advanced and honed military forces in Tamriel, making them a very reliable source for information of military importance such as stealth capabilities of potential enemies or allies.

  Sources:
  

  BlueViolet wrote: »

  
  War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer
  
  Valenwood: A Study
  

  
  Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
• The emotional argument of habitute and attachement - while not a strong argument on its own when talking about delicate matters such as balance, in conjunction with the reasons given above, it adds gravity to the situation and highlights the importance of this issue.
  We, the players, are not a homogenous mass and nobody can speak for the entire playerbase without needing to differentiate. Thus this may not apply for every player individually.
  Prior to the Wrathstone release, Bosmer was not considered a "good race" in terms of combat power by most. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of stamina sustain, will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer because of their looks will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer for roleplaying and lore will continue to do so now. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of their improved sneaking have now either switched to Khajiit or are too attached to the characters they spent time and effort to flesh out and develop to switch off now. These players won't use their race change tokens, because changing the race, means changing everything about the character that they love. Yet, their characters lost their reason for being. When there are plenty of reasons (as seen above) for Bosmer to retain their stealthiness, then it will be difficult for these players to move on from their characters. Most of us, who still think of this as an important issue, chose the Bosmer race with the substantiated expectation that choosing Bosmer would always mean sneaking superiorly to most races. If it was merely an attachment to the stealth gameplay and not the race, then these players would have adapted and moved on already, however they would have never created a Bosmer specifically, if wanting to excel at stealth gameplay played no roll in their decision. The Wrathstone update betrayed this expectations and is making others fear that "they may be next". Instilling this kind of fear into players will ultimately drive people away and hurt the diversity of the playerbase if not harm the total numbers noticably.

Race description direct from Elder Scrolls game manuals throughout the years:

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

To submit feedback to your Class Reps:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Brought up here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels

Link is this: https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

The official thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

Other threads of feedback:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458816/once-again-im-underwhelmed-bosmers-hunter-eye/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459778/wood-elf-racial-changes-zos-please-stop-ignoring-your-community/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458645/as-a-wood-elf-what-utility-racial-passive-is-the-best/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460182/save-the-bosmer/p1

Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.

On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for years.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Nevermind.

Khajiit Master Race

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

In regards to the Bosmer loosing their stealthy passive, the community seamed a bit perplexed at what seamed to be a changed aimed at nerfing roll-palayers. I wonder if the Devs ever spoke out about this or gave a reason why ? ( i know there are huge forum threads on this but i don't ever remember seeing any dev speak out about this )
My theory was this was done just to encourage more players to make khajiit for the "Chapter"
But having just made a new Bosmer nightblade i cant understand how this little 4 foot peanut is as easy to detect in sneak as Lyris Titenborn.

The Bosmer has to have its stealthy passive back - its nonsensical for it not to exist.

oh my...

Ok, the cats land on their legs and the wood elves are good at hiding. Thats true and Zenimax did maybe mess this up a bit.
But i play a Bosmer and with any 7 medium, even stets without any stealth boost, i can hide very, very well. Thats true also.
So even the roleplayer in me doesnt have any problems with it. I am happy tho have the falling damage reduction.

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

The Bosmer has to have its stealthy passive back - its nonsensical for it not to exist.

You won’t get it back, it’s time to get over and adapt to it. ZOS pretty much ignored the other thread that has dozens of pages and hundreds, thousands of comments. They’re content with the changes and nothing’s going to change in that regard. They moved on 4 months ago and so should you.

Ok so whats your take on this epic lorefail? And what they shouldn't fix this either?

They did this too ? Oh dear.

Yeah but this was more ninja nerf, it wasn't mentioned clearly in patch notes that they are taking it away, they just rewrited the passive without poison resistance and hped nobody will notice.

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nevermind.

Khajiit Master Race

Well, devs were trying to appeal only new/casual players, so khajiits, same as bosmers are good only for some builds in PVP, but completely overshadowed in PVE by other races in any min-maxed role.

A reminder: This is the exact opposite of everything they said they were trying to accomplish.

Which doesn't mean they're not doing it anyway.

They also said the dragons are awesome and perfectly well animated, that the servers have been fixed, and that they are satisfied with the feedback about Elsweyr. I can't figure if they are better liars than most politicians or simply well sheltered from reality.

Uryel wrote: »

... no longer that good at stealth. For instance, "I used to be a sneaky thief like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee".

You're a little worse when it comes to sneaking and stealing and on par with every other race besides Khajiit. It's not like you all of a sudden became the worst stealth race in the game. How are 95% of the playerbase dealing with these stealth issues you experience as a Bosmer now?

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Oh you mean you guys are only using the lore that resonates with you the most while blatantly leaving out the parts that can easily be Googled? Yet want to act like lore masters lol yeah okay.

Challenge accepted.

- "The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding" - Pocket guide to the empire, first edition.

So, Bosmeri epic number one is about hiding.

- "The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom [...]. The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth. In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite. In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery." - Heroes of the sanctuary ; Visions of the Green Pact Bosmers ; A merchant's guide to Valenwood.

So, one of the most important cultural rites of the Bosmers is stealing from each other.

- "The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars they apparently borrowed from the Khajiit" - Varieties of faiths - The Wood Elves

So, one of their most important deities is a Khajiiti one, their god of tricks and thieving.

- "These tree-folk are vicious, adept at banditry [...] When you walk the woods near Arenthia, hold your purse or satchel close" - The wood elves of Valenwood

This one doesn't even call for any comment...

- "Bosmer consider the slaying of others to be simply unnecessary, and wagers are even made prior to raids regarding the theft of prized possessions without a drop of blood spilled. - The wood elves of valenwood

This one is especially interesting. Why would people who consider killing others unnecessary have developped an ability to pierce armors better ? Also, obviously, thieving is the subject of those raids.

- "They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactic" - Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition

So, how exactly can a "guerrilla tactic" work without hiding ?


And so on. I know Google-fu.