srfrogg23 wrote: »

reoskit wrote: »

I truly do not think they’re working towards removing addons. PC would become a ghost town if that happened.

People will adapt just fine.

Here's a "fun" idea for PC players who currently use addons:

Take an hour or so this weekend. Disable all of your addons. Then, play. And I'm not just talking questing. Do your usual, daily stuffs.

Report back. Y'all ready for adaptation?

Edit: werds

Pevey wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

It’s not even clear what point you are trying me make here. Just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, i am saying that the point of online PC games is to be competitive in the first place, so why should one not strive to be be as competitive as possible and why should one feel apologetic about it? It goes with the territory.

barney2525 wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why, though? [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Hm... "non-constructive"?

"Baiting"?

You forgot to mention that it's the only relevant question.

If guild traders are so great, then why is everyone losing their minds over not being able to use addons just to be able to enjoy it?

If we need a bunch of addons just to make it bearable, then Zos, you should be asking yourselves why. Not censoring my posts.

If the guild can No Longer have a record of my character's 10k weekly deposit, then I am skrugeed.

If this only lasts this week I cannot imagine a guild holding that against you.

TheTraveler wrote: »

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

It's not about being competitive. I have said that, but I guess it was too much reading so I will keep it shorter. It's about being able to use sales figures do things like prizes for high sales, setting guild sales goals and having parties when you meet the goal,and being able to kick people from your guild that aren't selling anything because you can see that that they aren't selling anything in a long time. I don't care if its an in-game feature or an addon feature we just need to be able to do these things because it does make the trade guild experience WAY better for all.

Um.. so, but what is wrong with being competitive in a game? If you're feeling you shouldn't be competitive, why are you playing a competitive game?

Just because an MMO has a competitive "Aspect" to it, that does not define it as a "Competitive" game. There are folks who are just here for the fishing for cryin' out loud. Don't judge!

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Just use the ingame sale history from your guild history like every body on consle and you will be just fine

That is the entire point of this thread. There IS no sales history available. They turned it off. If you look there it just says: "No entries"

Ok then it is a problem now

It work on console thought

Yea, only PCs had it turned off, which is the point.

Thank you ZOS for nothing. I decided finally try trading in this godawful trading system you saw fit to create, and that meant I had to get ESO+ too because crafting bag and extra bank space. To afford ESO+, I had to unsubscribe from other service. This happened two weeks ago. First week I sold for about 50k, which was OK for a guild that has trader in a less popular spot with much less traffic than places like Vivec city, or any city for all I know. I also have to sell dirt cheap for the same reason.

How much do you developers in your bubble think I earned this week? This far it has been 1000 gold. One thousand. I don't know why I even bother. Your system is ridicilous, and you make it even worse now. There is NO way in this fresh hell a person who doesn't want to have gaming as a second job can make a dime in this mafia-based market system, and now you make it even more difficult because why? We don't even know. I'm 100% sure many other players share my experience and haven't sold a crap this week because we have to sell in a spot that doesn't attract any traffic, and people don't do price checking now. They either don't buy at all, or they just say *** it and buy from where it is convenient.

ESO has it's merits as a game. But after playing few months (this was my third attempt to live with your product after I bought it 2015) again, I really begin to think why I even bother. Clearly I'm not an important customer. Not that I think I'm that important of a person, but why do you want to make everything so damn difficult and complicated? Do you think that you are in a position where competition is so non existent that you can just overlook your customers and walk all over them when ever you feel like it? Because I aint your hostige, and I don't fall for sunk cost fallacy. I have zero loyalty for some game. Get your *** together and fast.

Edit: In my 50 years of life, this is first time I get so pissed about a game company I rant on their forums. Normally I just leave a game when I'm unhappy with it. I have never seen that complaining has changed anything unless developers are already biased to that direction and the change feels more pleasant to work with because they agree with it. I just know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but so many casual players never say anything and get tramped all over so allow me rant this one time. Next move is I quietly just take my business elsewhere like an adult person should and like I normally do. I'm not that important to anyone else than myself, but jesus christ this company grates my nerves.

tahol10069 wrote: »

Thank you ZOS for nothing. I decided finally try trading in this godawful trading system you saw fit to create, and that meant I had to get ESO+ too because crafting bag and extra bank space. To afford ESO+, I had to unsubscribe from other service. This happened two weeks ago. First week I sold for about 50k, which was OK for a guild that has trader in a less popular spot with much less traffic than places like Vivec city, or any city for all I know. I also have to sell dirt cheap for the same reason.

How much do you developers in your bubble think I earned this week? This far it has been 1000 gold. One thousand. I don't know why I even bother. Your system is ridicilous, and you make it even worse now. There is NO way in this fresh hell a person who doesn't want to have gaming as a second job can make a dime in this mafia-based market system, and now you make it even more difficult because why? We don't even know. I'm 100% sure many other players share my experience and haven't sold a crap this week because we have to sell in a spot that doesn't attract any traffic, and people don't do price checking now. They either don't buy at all, or they just say *** it and buy from where it is convenient.

ESO has it's merits as a game. But after playing few months (this was my third attempt to live with your product after I bought it 2015) again, I really begin to think why I even bother. Clearly I'm not an important customer. Not that I think I'm that important of a person, but why do you want to make everything so damn difficult and complicated? Do you think that you are in a position where competition is so non existent that you can just overlook your customers and walk all over them when ever you feel like it? Because I aint your hostige, and I don't fall for sunk cost fallacy. I have zero loyalty for some game. Get your *** together and fast.

Edit: In my 50 years of life, this is first time I get so pissed about a game company I rant on their forums. Normally I just leave a game when I'm unhappy with it. I have never seen that complaining has changed anything unless developers are already biased to that direction and the change feels more pleasant to work with because they agree with it. I just know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but so many casual players never say anything and get tramped all over so allow me rant this one time. Next move is I quietly just take my business elsewhere like an adult person should and like I normally do. I'm not that important to anyone else than myself, but jesus christ this company grates my nerves.

If you hate it so much, why are you playing ESO. It's the only game that has this kind of system for people who like it. Plenty of other MMOs with a Global Auction House to play. You say we are mafias but I haven't had to break anyone's legs or put splints under any fingernails yet. In my experience making gold in ESO is easy as can be so I don't really get why you are so bent out of shape about Guild Traders.

XenoAlbedo wrote: »

I find it genuinely difficult to believe people are actually defending the idea of permanently disabling the ability for addons to access guild history.

People vote for all sorts of self inflicted harm these days in the name of ideology

The devs are so out of touch with the player base its absurd

Now I remember why I quit 4 years ago

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

TQSkull wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

]

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

I think the experience will be much better without all of these 3rd party addons manipulating the market. Now people will use the system the way it was intended. They'll have to.

Now, if a single guild wants to dominate a specific trader for months at a time, they will actually have to run their trading guild like a real business, which is going to be so, so fun...

Honestly, I hope Zos leaves it this way. Then they'll finally get some real feedback on this crap system instead of constantly being defended by people who only enjoy it because they supplement their experience with 3rd party software. Heck, the console crowd seems to be doing just fine.

Go forth and trade! Anarchy is here

Sorry this doesn't stack up. It was always intended that addons would fill the voids in UI functionality, partially because of the console .

Statements like this do not negate the fact that addons do exist and provide much needed functionality that players have come to depend on.

Also you have not grasped that guild history has been disabled, a feature that is integral to the core game. Addons do not manipulate the game or the market they interrogate information that is available and deliver it to players in a usable way.

It is already a pretty one-sided and toxic relationship that Zos has with its trade guild GMs. We undertake huge amounts of admin, stress and yes fun as well running the trade system for Zos, without much support or direct communication. For example Zos has failed to grasp, the direct impact of crown selling (basically legal gold buying) on the trading system and how an excess of gold from those willing to spend real money has had on the bidding system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_SarahHecker how about a dedicated, named developer responsible for the trade system, a forum thread and a constructive dialogue between trade GMs and Zos initiated please?

It does add up. Addons can be good for cosmetic customization. If you want to rearrange the UI, change its appearance then, yeah, that's why they have addon functionality.

I don't think the devs intended for people to use the addons to circumvent gameplay. Make no mistake, manually researching and tracking market prices amongst a large number of competing vendors is the intended "gameplay". It's a medieval market simulator, not a modern corporate tycoon simulator.

I know for sure that they NEVER intended for addons to be used to give players such a significant advantage over the players who aren't using addons.

how can you know that for sure? zos is in control about which api functions can be used and most likely they know what you are able to do with it. additionally they disabled those functions if players archived something they didn't thought about. so i would say it was pretty much intended.

Do you honestly think they would create a system specifically to be circumvented by addons? To be considered almost mandatory just to enjoy the content? Do you honestly think they intended for players to have such a massive advantage over other players just because they use some addons?

No. I don't think that was the intent at all. I think, it's more of a case of either addons are allowed or they're not, and up until this point, they tolerated the addons that bordered on cheating because they didn't want to prevent the use of cosmetic addons.

You should be thankful for this development. It means you will enjoy the game the way it was intended. If you don't like it that way, then you can join the rest of us when we say the guild trader system sucks (this is the reason why it sucks, btw).

There is no “advantage over other players” when you try to paint console players as the “other players”. You chose a system you knew would not have addons, you also don’t directly compete with anyone on PC. No competition = no advantage.

People on PC chose the platform with addons. And yes, ZOS did design this game with addons in mind. That why the API has functioned like it has for 5 or so years with only moderate changes. There’s even a quote a small way back about how the devs left out some features because they knew and addon could fulfill the same function if players so desired.

Nothing has been circumvented. API issues have gotten patched rather quickly once they come to public attention. There’s no blanket addon-ban, that would definitely cause a great deal of people to quit. MM, Shissu’s Guild Tools, ATT have existed for years as publicly known and encouraged tools for traders and trade guild GMs. Most of those tools should 100% be built into the base game.

The console trade scene is toxic only because you don’t have reasonable tools available, or the dedication I guess. Since you could just track every single sale every player makes right? (/s)

I think you're doing way too many mental gymnastics to try to downplay the affect that these addons have on the system. Just to put it into perspective: Read all of the posts complaining about all of the horrible, time consuming things that guld masters will have to do just to remain competitive and hold on to their traders from week to week.

And yes, guilds are competing against each other to hold those spots. If you lose your trader, then you're limited to in-guild sales. That means profits are extremely limited.

That's where the significant advantage of addons comes into play.

Mental gymnastics to say the console market developed differently than PC? Nah I don’t think so.

PC trading has functioned healthy because PC guilds can base requirements off sales rather easily. It’s more player-friendly and generates a nice reward system for those who participate when a weekly fee is waived in light of good sales numbers.

Console, in general, doesn’t use sales as a metric at all because gathering the info is tedious. That environment is much less welcoming and doesn’t distinguish between high participation sellers and those just hanging out in the guild for a week. They all have the same donation reqs even if one person sells 100k and another sold 50k. Even with addons I’d venture to say PC trade GMs work as hard or harder than console trade guild GMs do due to the completely different requirement system we’ve all come to know here.

The reward systems like sales tax returns, high-seller bonuses are not feasible on console because you lack a proper data gathering tool. On PC those reward systems are common.

Maybe you’re selectively reading, but people on PC would agree that bringing over many addon function, especially for guilds, would be welcome on consoles. You’re not competing against addons in your system, which is the point. PC players all have equal access to addons, further making that point moot. The trade system at its base is social and unique on top of all the good it does keeping gold inflation down. That doesn’t mean it’s not in dire need of an update.

I'm not selectively reading. I understand exactly what you're saying. "Addons make guild traders worthwhile".

You're not understanding me. I'm saying, "guild traders suck because they're only worth a damn if you use a bunch of addons. People who don't use addons are at a disadvantage because of that. The guild trader system needs to go away. If it's not going to go away, then everyone needs to be on an equal playing field. That means getting rid of the addons, permanently."

You see, I don't care if you think you're somehow facilitating a good gameplay experience for non-addon-using players because you use addons yourself. I want you to experience the guild trader system in its purest form and then come back and tell me how fun it is.

Game devs need real feedback on this system. People like to brush aside the criticism of it by saying "just download all these addons so it doesn't suck". Sorry, no. That's bad design. We should not need to download 3rd party software just to make a mechanic bearable.

So, no more addons, I say. Play it the way I do. See how you enjoy it after that.

KyraCROgnon wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Hm... call me a "purist", but if you need an addon just to use the game mechanics, then it's a bad mechanic.

If the devs didn't include it as a feature, then it wasn't intended.

iirc, ZOS excuse for a lot of missing basic functionnalities (like mini map for exemple ...) has always been "we allowed add-ons , so just make your own" . If the game had a rich interface, we could do without them, but it has never been ZOS politic to improve on gameplay when they could have unpaid volunteers do it !
So your sentence is completely wrong : a lot of features should have been in game but weren't included to cut cost because they hoped add-on makers to fill the gap.

And, that stance, 5 years ago, was wrong. It's time for them to rethink that strategy. This is a multiplayer game. What I do affects other people and vice-versa.

Just because they were thinking of cosmetic changes with addons, doesn't mean that they intended for players to use addons that give them advantages over other players.

That original philosophy was not intended to give players carte blanche freedom to do whatever the heck they wanted to do.

DragonRacer wrote: »

And so the thread receives a Z stamp, but for moderation rather than an answer.

This will go over well...

In this, we have only ourselves to blame. Every day we drift further from Finn's light. :P

Addons are a thing, they are not going away.

If you dont like addons dont use them. Telling me and people like me not to use addons is a fruitless cause. You could go and start your own anti-addon thread elsewhere and allow us here to feedback on what we need to do to run our trade guilds.

Zos please bring back guild history so that we can use the addons that allow us to undertake complex guild admin, so that we can continue to run trade guilds that thousands of people enjoy being members of. Please also consider using this opportunity to start a productive dialogue with Trade Guild gms and officers so that we can begin to improve on the trade system.