Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

wedgebert · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

No one is saying we're not in a better place than we were, but that's 100% due to the changes to the our other two passives from percent increases to flat values. Not a single person in this thread that I've seen has said we should revert or change those passives. We are only upset at how bad and lore breaking Hunter's Eye is.

I used the 10% stealth bonus damage in PvE because I did a lot of stealthing. It wasn't a big benefit since it was only for one attack and was either wasted on trash that died fast or on a boss that didn't even notice, but at least it was something. Now Hunter's Eye is 100% a PvP passive. If I'm doing a normal dungeon/trail, my base pen plus group buffs means that I don't need 1,500 bonus pen. And in veteran, it's not contributing much of anything because there's not much roll-dodging going on.

Roll dodging is always a DPS loss with regards to Hunter's Eye. Even with set bonuses, the damage lost by not attacking during the roll, plus attacked lost due to the stamina cost means you'll ever make up for it with the bonus damage you're getting. So that means you only will have hunter's eye up if you roll defensively. In PvP, sure everyone rolls all the time, but it's still not enough damage to even notice. And in PvE you rarely have to roll, so your uptime is going to be low. I'd be surprised if Hunters' Eye contributed to 0.5% of your damage in a veteran boss fight.

So Bosmer went from being optimized to cancerous PvP builds to being optimized for impractical niche PvP builds. Not really an improvement.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

In PvP you try to get as much penetration as possible and those 1500 contribute to that as you will ideally also have set your enemy offbalance. The other thing is sustain which is key in PvP. The one with the better sustain will win a drawn-out fight. So in that sense, Bosmer are good for Burst dps as sustained dps doesn't work in PvP and you'll attempt to strike within the 6 seconds of your passive for higher burst. So burst builds benefit the most from Bosmer passive compared to others.

However, I feel like most of what you said is redundant because MartiniDaniels is as concerned about the lore and stealth as we are. I think he only tried to make Cundu_Ertur feel better about the dps data as it doesn't suggest that Bosmer suck as stam dps (or bow for that matter)

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

No one is saying we're not in a better place than we were, but that's 100% due to the changes to the our other two passives from percent increases to flat values. Not a single person in this thread that I've seen has said we should revert or change those passives. We are only upset at how bad and lore breaking Hunter's Eye is.

I used the 10% stealth bonus damage in PvE because I did a lot of stealthing. It wasn't a big benefit since it was only for one attack and was either wasted on trash that died fast or on a boss that didn't even notice, but at least it was something. Now Hunter's Eye is 100% a PvP passive. If I'm doing a normal dungeon/trail, my base pen plus group buffs means that I don't need 1,500 bonus pen. And in veteran, it's not contributing much of anything because there's not much roll-dodging going on.

Roll dodging is always a DPS loss with regards to Hunter's Eye. Even with set bonuses, the damage lost by not attacking during the roll, plus attacked lost due to the stamina cost means you'll ever make up for it with the bonus damage you're getting. So that means you only will have hunter's eye up if you roll defensively. In PvP, sure everyone rolls all the time, but it's still not enough damage to even notice. And in PvE you rarely have to roll, so your uptime is going to be low. I'd be surprised if Hunters' Eye contributed to 0.5% of your damage in a veteran boss fight.

So Bosmer went from being optimized to cancerous PvP builds to being optimized for impractical niche PvP builds. Not really an improvement.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

Lylith · April 2019

Browiseth wrote: »

hooo boy. 53 pages...at a certain point the devs have to realise there's a problem

i admire your optimism.

wedgebert · April 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Basically in PvE, Bosmer get a 10% speed bonus for 6 seconds with maybe a little bit of tickle damage in higher levels. It's just too little damage in too sporadic a time period. It's weaker than the Orc or Dunmer buffs in a perfect 100% uptime scenario. In the real world it's going to preform even worse.

And it even goes against one of their rationale of why Altmer were changed. Spell Recharge now returns stamina because they didn't want a damage class to also have a sustain bonus. So why are Bosmer, a sustain race, getting a damage bonus?

CassandraGemini · April 2019

So, I've just realized that with all the discussions about skyshards that have been going on in the past weeks, I've never actually taken the time to write something here. Maybe it was just because I figured that it wouldn't matter anyway, since this thread keeps getting longer and longer and the devs do not seem to care one bit... but then again I don't believe in the philosophy of keeping one's mouth shut because, in the grand scheme of things, one person's opinion is irrelevant anyway, so here are my 2 cents on this topic (even though on all the 53 pages of this thread everything I'm going to bring up will have already been said more than once, but still).

I created my main Bosmer girl the way she is, because I specifically like to play rogue or thief characters. Whenever there is a class in a game that involves stealthily killing your targets from the shadows, stealing from them or sniping them with a bow, that's the one I'll choose. It's just my preferred playstyle, so when looking at the various passives the races have (or had I should say now) to offer, I knew right away that my main would be a Bosmer. It just seemed to fit and I had a great deal of fun with my girl - from the moment I started playing until the racial passive changes hit.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing her anymore. Of course I still do, she's my main and although I have an emotional connection to all my characters, my connection to her is the deepest, and I didn't even consider race changing her to Khajiit, since my characters are more to me than just placeholders for "most efficient stamblade dd/templar healer/DK tank", etc. They grow on me and every single one of them stays just the way they are.
Still, that doesn't change the fact that she's not what she used to be. She used to be able to perfectly clear Thieves Guild heists in 5 to 6 minutes without being seen even once. Same with Dark Brotherhood sacraments - once upon a time she was so good in what she did, she even got the Flawless Sacrament achievement.
Now, of course, that wouldn't be possible anymore, since she gets detected all the time, in situtations that would have only made her smirk about her own vast superiority before. Now, not so much.

Sure, I really like the other two passives, they're nothing but beneficial. But Hunter's Eye? Didn't get even one skill point from me. The penetration bonus could be nice if it weren't so highly conditional, and the stealth detection bonus? Give me a break. As it stands this passive might be okay for pvp (can't really say, since I don't pvp more than I need to for certain skills), but for pve it's all but useless.

So much for better "balancing".

OsManiaC · April 2019

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

Ratzkifal · April 2019

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

BaTtLgRoUnDs Of CoUrSe!

CassandraGemini · April 2019

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

I suspect there'll be an official response in the next livestream. Something along the lines of: "Rejoice, all you people who want the Bosmer stealth passive back! You can now buy it in the Crown Store for 10000 crowns!"

Jaraal · April 2019

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

Maybe they have future plans to make DLC dungeons have hidden boss mechanics, so that groups looking to farm expensive motifs will have to hire Bosmer tanks to taunt the hidden bosses. This would certainly get people interested in playing wood elves again! Although, of course, tanks are unlikely to be rolling around on the ground like clowns.... so every Bosmer DPS will be queuing as a fake tank to get into a group right away.... at least until they rage quit from the repeated "failed to join the group" notification, that is.

Can't wait to be able to justify spending skill points on Hunter's Eye! Hurry up with the new hidden boss dungeons already, ZOS!

max_only · April 2019

I’m thinking there will be a quest with actually stealthed Khajiit npcs. Like how there were “trespassing” quests in Morrowind.
So they can say “see, we told you you will need it! XD”

Jaraal · April 2019

max_only wrote: »

I’m thinking there will be a quest with actually stealthed Khajiit npcs. Like how there were “trespassing” quests in Morrowind.
So they can say “see, we told you you will need it! XD”

Lol, could you imagine the uproar from non-Bosmer completionists?

(Guild1) "Hey, everybody, I finished every quest in the game..... where's my Tamriel Hero title?"

(Guild1) "You a Bosmer bro?"

(Guild1) "No, why?"

(Guild1) "Then you never finished the stealth detection quests! Kick rocks, scrub!"

Koronach · April 2019

Koronach wrote: »

I still like this idea to fix this issue.

Argonian
Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Wood Elf
Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison and Disease Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.

They aren't exactly the same and still follows the base lore of ESO better.

For the resistances at least. Instead of just removing one from each they should of did something like this for the sake of not breaking ESO's lore.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

Koronach wrote: »

I still like this idea to fix this issue.

Argonian
Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Wood Elf
Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison and Disease Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.

They aren't exactly the same and still follows the base lore of ESO better.
For the resistances at least. Instead of just removing one from each they should of did something like this for the sake of not breaking ESO's lore.

I don't think it works like that. Previously that immunity was perhaps a bug turned feature as it was there but not mentioned in the text. I remember my pvp guild going crazy when they figured out Bosmer was immune to Major defile, only for it to turn out that it was just the diseased status effect and other sources of defile still applied. But hey, I still like your idea and maybe it does work just like that.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

Jeez, how did this wind up on page 3? And here I'm not even one who DOES stealth bosmer!

Ratzkifal · April 2019

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Jeez, how did this wind up on page 3? And here I'm not even one who DOES stealth bosmer!

I didn't feel like responding to myself. Currently there is not a lot we can talk about except that there is still no OFFICIAL response. Only unofficial no-ETA no-promise maybe. I'm also not sure we can turn this into a meme channel about stealth memes or ZOS memes to pass the time until an official response comes as that would probably be considered "derailing".

Once PTS starts we can be active again and call for a follow-up on race changes in U21. I've just seen a video where a guy goes through the math of 2% increased healing done and calculates when it outperforms 129 spell damage in order to better determine how good of a set piece bonus it is. It turns out the tipping point at which 2% increased healing done is equal to 129 spell damage is at around 5000 spell damage. If you have more than 5000 spell damage, your healing will benefit more from 2% healing done than 129 spell damage. Seeing how Altmer get 258 spell damage and Argonians only meager 6% healing done, Altmer is far superior in terms of healing. The Argonian sustain is not that great either, so they really don't have a lot of advantages over Altmer (aka none at all). That alone would be enough reason for me to follow up on the racial rebalance in U22. Fixing more than just Bosmer stealth will also make ZOS look better as they didn't just "give in to a vocal minority" but had more data suggesting yadda yadda yadda. If they aren't satisfied with the Nord ult generation then they'd probably do that too. I'm just hoping they are actually going to do it and not let us remain in this limbo of uncertainty.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

I don't really have any feel for the numbers like that. I mean, I just crip along with my girls and minor quests/exploring plus the event stuff for mains, and lowbies that need easy XP.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

What we could talk about is the supposed skill line. I don't have a whole lot of ideas for it as Legerdemain, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood already cover a ton of things. Passives that aren't really available yet is reduced detection radius to help with trespassing.
To be honest I'm not sure how ZOS wants to "open up stealth" even further. I don't think they are planning to give more sources of invisibility to the players as that would diminish the uniqueness of Nightblades. So detection radius is pretty much the only other option. But how do you fill an entire line of passives with that? Unless they are doing some combining of existing legerdemain passives and adding new components to them, there is not much room to move in.
I don't think they are going to fundamentally change the way stealth works, as that's been more or less consistent with the way it was in Skyrim. So there aren't really a whole lot of new avenues left to open. Perhaps sneaking speed is still an option though.

None of that addresses the issue of Bosmer stealth though unless they give Bosmer a bonus on earning these, which would still have the same problems as the archery being underrepresented in the Bosmer racials.

Can you think of more ways to open up stealth?

BlueRaven · April 2019

I posted my idea a while ago in another thread;

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5850003#Comment_5850003

“OK this is what I was thinking what a "Sneak" tree would look like.

The skill line would appear under the "World" tab and would have 20 levels. It would be open to all (similar to ledgerman), but I can see a quest chain or daily in Elsweyr (or someplace) that directly helps leveling it.

There would be three ways to level it.

1) Attacking PvE enemies from stealth. This would be the slowest way of leveling the skill but is open to all regardless of what DLCs or Chapters they own. Each attack, even if it does not result in a kill, originating from stealth would level up the skill line. There would be a 20-30 sec cool down on the experience gained so players would avoid going into stealth, kill a mud crab, go back into stealth, kill a mud crab, type of grinding.

2) Attacking players enemies from stealth. Similar to attacking PvE enemies, with a similar cool down, so it is not spamable. The only change is that attacking another player from stealth delivers 4-5 times the experience of attacking a PvE target. The reason why is because there is less available opportunities to go back into stealth in large battles.

3) Quests and dailies in Elsweyr(?) This would be the most efficient way to get a head start in the tree. But can be avoided if the player is not interested in questing. A parallel might be the mage and fighters guild skill trees where lore books and killing certain mobs level the skill lines without having to do the quests, but the quests help a lot.

The skill trees;

None of the skills listed are stackable with racials or armor sets. In areas when an armor set or racial grants a higher bonus, then the higher bonus number will be used.
Everything below requires a skill point to rank up, but any skills can be skipped if the player is not interested in investing any points into it. (Again similar to ledgerman.)

Improved stealth (4 ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (2, 7, 12, 16). Each rank adds a stealth detection radius reduction of 1m, with a maximum of 4m. (Note: This is basically the kahjit stealth racial with an additional 1m added on at the end.)

Stealth Detection (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (3, 8, 13, 17). Increases a stealth detection radius by 1m, with a maximum of 4m. (Note: Why is this here? As a character learns the tricks of being stealthy, they also learn the ways to catch others who are being stealthy. This is basically the bosmer detect stealth ability with 1 m added on the end.)

Stealth Cost Reduction (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (4, 9, 14, 18). Reduces the stamina cost of stealth by 2.5% per rank, maximum of a 10% reduction.

Stealth Speed (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (5, 10, 15, 19). Each rank increases the stealth speed by (X)/4 % with a maximum value of X%. (Note: I am not sure what a good maximum value would be for this. Should they be able to move as fast as vampires in stealth? Nearly as fast? Half as fast? I am not sure. When a final speed is figured out just put the value in for "X".)

Active skill:

Cloud of Dust: (Available at rank 20) At the cost of magicka, create a cloud of dust effecting all hostile enemies with 2m. This dust interrupts all spell casting for 2 seconds. Hostile enemies are put into a daze for 1 second. Also the caster is immediately thrown back into stealth. The caster is not immune to stealth breaking effects.

Morphs:

Bag of Dust: Increases area of effect to 3m from caster. Interrupt is now 3 secs. And daze is 2 secs.

Blind: Single target. Target is interrupted in spell casting for 5 secs. And put into a daze for 4 secs. The caster is NOT put back into stealth.

•••

Probably unbalanced and OP but this is what was in my head.”

•••

Probably not the best idea, but at least it’s something.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

That's some really great stuff there Blue!

Ratzkifal · April 2019

@BlueRaven Not a bad start. I do like the thought of a smoke grenade skill.

My take on it would look more like this:

Smoke bomb - Throws a smoke bomb on the ground briefly turning the caster invisible and reducing the detection radius of enemies in the area to 0m for X seconds.

Smoke Screen - Throws a smoke bomb from a distance at a target location, reducing the detection radius of enemies caught in the area to 0m for X seconds. This skill does not break stealth.
Illusionary Smoke bomb - Briefly turns the caster invisible and leaves a cloud of smoke behind which reduces the detection radius of enemies in the area to 0m for X seconds and slows them by Y%.

I was thinking that one morph would be great for escape and the other good as a distraction/preparation. They wouldn't be useless in PvP either, yet not be too beneficial to change the meta. I think the base skill and Morph 1 should cost stamina as that would keep the skill from being easy mode. You expend the resource you are sneaking with to prepare your attack/theft. If you want to use it, then you have to be sure that you'll make it. Morph 2 should cost magicka to give magicka characters better tools to escape into stealth but not use up their entire pool in the process. The short invisibility prevents incoming damage allowing you to fully enter stealth while the enemies' detection is down.

I feel it's unlikely to get implemented though. Invisibility is a Nightblade thing and I don't think ZOS would make the one thing that makes Nightblades unique accessable to all.

The rest of the skill line is alright, although I don't think adding detection is a good choice. Everyone hates sneaking characters in PvP so that passive would become mandatory. It would be a different thing if it was a trade-off and you could only have detection OR sneaking.
That these passives don't stack with racials also removes the uniqueness of Khajiit and Bosmer even further. Imagine how Highelfs would feel if there was a new skill line coming out and one passive read "Gain 258 spell damage but not when you are Altmer or Dunmer". They'd get a useless passive because the other races get theirs for free + extra. That's essentially what this is. If we'd implement this, then Khajiit and Bosmer need new passive components or they would fall off even more.

BlueRaven · April 2019

@Ratzkifal I like your ideas of the smoke bombs! I am not sure how that would look like in Cyrodiil or an arena, but I like the concept a lot!

I did not want the bonuses to stack because as we saw on the PTS the a stealth range of 5m essentially becomes invisible to guards. So a 7m one would be ridiculous. I think 5m is the absolute maximum it should go.

I chose 4m as it is "one" better then the base 3m the races get. So it would be worth it for someone to want to put points into the passive as it will eventually get one better than their races passive.

I put the stealth detect in there as a direct nod to players in PvP. If a player does not PvP or is not interested in the skill then there will be no need for them to put points into it.
If they do PvP and want to put points into it, well they will have to do the work, and I could not think of a different mechanism that could be used to level the ability for someone who stays in cyrodil all the time.
Also, I put it rather early in the tree to lessen the burden of PvP players to actually level the skill.

I know what you mean for uniqueness of the skill for the races, but I can't stop myself to thinking back to Skyrim where any race can become equally as stealthy if they put the work into it. And I think it gives a nod to player fantasy (RPer's). "For a time I lived with the Bosmer's of Malabal Tor, and they taught me the ways of stealth." It's a fun fantasy trope in my opinion, so why not embrace it?
In my head I though of the Kahjit (and what should also be the Bosmer stealth passive) as a kind of head start of the ways of stealth. Kind of like in Skyrim where they started with a head start, but all races could catch up if they wished.
So I think this is where you and I differ in opinion, but is an important question to ask. Should Kahjits, (and bosmer's) ALWAYS be stealthier than any other race if they have the same armor etc? Or is it ok that they eventually be the same if they both put work into it. Are kahjits and bosmers always going to be more stealthier than someone from the Morag Tong for example?

One last thought, imagine that this tree goes live and the passive to kahjits and bosmers gets changed from the stealth detect(ion) skills they currently have to a +20% bonus to this skill tree (or something like that). Would that be acceptable?

•••

Basically I came up with the tree as a thought exercise while commuting a while back. I know it needs changes, but I thought it would be a bit of a starting off point at least.

Tigerseye · April 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Yeah, this is the point.

I love rolling around.

So, I'm happy that dodge roll now adds a little extra speed, even when I don't have bow equipped; even if it isn't very much.

The issue is not them making rolling better (which I view as a good thing) - it is them tying rolling to extra penetration, or in fact tying extra damage to rolling, at all.

If damage has to be tied to dodge roll for some unknown reason (when other races just have it passively), it would at least be far better to tie a damage stat, without a hard cap, to it.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

If they do get a headstart then it would be better for the lore aspect of things. What I just don't like is that one race gets more options to spend skills for improvements than others. Redundancy is bad. If they don't stack, then races access to less redundant passives are stronger.
In the earlier example with the 258 spell damage, nobody would pick Altmer anymore and everyone would go with Breton, because Altmer doesn't add anything beyond that spell damage which Bretons have in addition to 7% reduction. You could have the same "they learned magic from the Altmer" vibe there, but then one race would be objectively worse than the rest.

It works for the single player games, because the only character that matters there is you. In an MMO you always have to look at what the others are doing. If 5m is too much and we want to avoid redundancy, then the radius reduction is just not possible as a passive. Your passive line could still work if we went back to the racials and changed them to be more compatible while opening up the mandatory radius reduction to everyone. But since this whole skill line seems to only be in the discussion to avoid having to revisit the racials, I don't think that is an option.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

I think it's pretty discouraging that no one from ZOS is addressing any of this. I wonder if they're even reading any of it.

MartiniDaniels · April 2019

Tigerseye wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Yeah, this is the point.

I love rolling around.

So, I'm happy that dodge roll now adds a little extra speed, even when I don't have bow equipped; even if it isn't very much.

The issue is not them making rolling better (which I view as a good thing) - it is them tying rolling to extra penetration, or in fact tying extra damage to rolling, at all.

If damage has to be tied to dodge roll for some unknown reason (when other races just have it passively), it would at least be far better to tie a damage stat, without a hard cap, to it.

Yep, 150 WD on roll-dodge will do. Also it will boost vigor a little so as small as it there will be also defensive benefit to this. Penetration is probably worst combat stat possible to be activated on roll-dodge.

wedgebert · April 2019

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Ratzkifal · April 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Well said. I just hope some people at ZOS actually realize that at some point.

BlueRaven · April 2019

Yeah, I am ready for this to come at a conclusion myself. The PTS is on the 15th correct?
Please, please, please, let there be some light for the end of this tunnel. I hope the phase two of whatever overhaul they are planning is finally revealed.

Sylvermynx · April 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Yeah. ZOS needs to start hearing. Or maybe they should buy hearing aids.

[Edit for stupid fumble-fingered typo.]