Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Wildbloom

What do you think it could be? Race-specific armor? More racials? Oh the suspense!

max_only

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

BlueRaven

My impression it’s going to be a stand alone stealth skill tree.

anadandy

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread.

It could just be that I'm punchy but this made me giggle. "They are aware of this thread" makes us sound so ominous - like Liam Neeson on the phone

This thread has a very particular set of skills....

Ratzkifal

max_only wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Well, we will certainly not stop this thread now, right? But I gotta say, I can't stop smiling and feel a lot better already. Even considering to buy Elsweyr! I'll resub and buy Wrathstone when they actually made the change though.

Wildbloom

Ratzkifal wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Well, we will certainly not stop this thread now, right? But I gotta say, I can't stop smiling and feel a lot better already. Even considering to buy Elsweyr! I'll resub and buy Wrathstone when they actually made the change though.

If they know about the thread and they're reading it, we can start pitching ideas maybe? Good to start now so they don't have to sift through the salt.

I would love a tree for stealth gameplay, complete with skills that would help with thievery and sneaking and all sorts of stealing.

Eiron77

Ratzkifal wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Well, we will certainly not stop this thread now, right? But I gotta say, I can't stop smiling and feel a lot better already. Even considering to buy Elsweyr! I'll resub and buy Wrathstone when they actually made the change though.

Meh, I might buy Elsweyr when it goes on sale after a year, IF they make some kind of redemption for this Bosmer for this mess.
UNLESS they make a really damn good change that fixes Bosmer so they're actually Bosmer, then Id buy it full price and resub.

But if it's just a stealth skill line with no specific Bosmer fix... That's not going to be enough for me to come back. They ruined a 5 year character for me that was my only tie in to this game. I just don't have enough free time to level another one from scratch these days. And, for me, its a hell no to making a catman character.

Night_Wolf2112

Hold up . . . . Don't get too wide eyed on that news! A new stealth skill line/tree does sound very intriguing, but. . . . . Everyone will have access to it, which is good, but does not separate Bosmer as an exceptionally skilled race at stealth. It again, just makes them as good as everyone else except Khajit.

Eiron77

Hi everyone! Next Saturday, March 30 from 3:30-4:30pm EDT, we’ll be hosting a special livestreamed Q&A straight from Bethesda Game Days in Boston; this will follow the first livestream we have on Friday, March 29 from 6:30-7:30pm EDT where we’ll be showing live gameplay. Our focus for the Q&A will be on Elsweyr, the Necromancer, Sunspire Trial, and features coming to Update 22. If you have any questions that you’d like us to consider for the Q&A, please post them in this thread. Thanks!

Well, it looks like we probably won't have any questions answered regarding the racial overhaul, but there's always a chance. So we'll see.

ZaroktheImmortal

max_only wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown

So, like the Cyrodiil disconnects and Group Finder bug fixes? They've been working on those for years. Pardon my pessimism, but that sounds rather dismissive.

BlueRaven wrote: »

My impression it’s going to be a stand alone stealth skill tree.

If it's available to all, then Bosmer will still be tied for worst stealthy race. Lore is still desecrated.

Would it really be gamebreaking to swap the unusable in PvE and questionably effective in PvP "stealth detection" back to the previous stealth radius reduction, minus the 10% damage bonus?

BlueRaven

Ok let me tell you what was said and how it went down.

While leaving, I bumped into the guy who is in charge of combat and pvp(?) he was on stage during the presentation.

(As a side note, earlier I also had a nice short conversation with the guy in charge of dungeons except I did not recognize him as the guy in charge of dungeons. We had a nice conversation about... Dungeons.)

Anyway, so after some pleasentries I said;
“Ok, I have to ask, Bosmer and stealth.” Just like that.

And he said he knew about the controversy and hinted at this thread. They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early. He was extremely nice about it and it did not feel like he was trying to push me off with a maybe. We had a short discussion about what the tree might look like and that was it.

I left the conversation very pleased.

Keep in mind that if/when they do implement the tree, bosmers and kahjits May loose anything that says stealth from their passives (this is my supposition not his). Which will even out the stealth issues. I know bosmers won’t be best in stealth, but in Skyrim (eventually) all races can be equally good in stealth and I ok with that.

At least it will be better then what we have currently.

Ok back to driving.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early.

Kind of like, Legerdemain/Thieves Guild 2.0?


But anyway, thank you for talking to them about it for us! Your efforts are much appreciated!

Ratzkifal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok let me tell you what was said and how it went down.

While leaving, I bumped into the guy who is in charge of combat and pvp(?) he was on stage during the presentation.

(As a side note, earlier I also had a nice short conversation with the guy in charge of dungeons except I did not recognize him as the guy in charge of dungeons. We had a nice conversation about... Dungeons.)

Anyway, so after some pleasentries I said;
“Ok, I have to ask, Bosmer and stealth.” Just like that.

And he said he knew about the controversy and hinted at this thread. They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early. He was extremely nice about it and it did not feel like he was trying to push me off with a maybe. We had a short discussion about what the tree might look like and that was it.

I left the conversation very pleased.

Keep in mind that if/when they do implement the tree, bosmers and kahjits May loose anything that says stealth from their passives (this is my supposition not his). Which will even out the stealth issues. I know bosmers won’t be best in stealth, but in Skyrim (eventually) all races can be equally good in stealth and I ok with that.

At least it will be better then what we have currently.

Ok back to driving.

Sounds definitely interesting. If they are going to remove the Khajiit 3meter radius and the Bosmer detection to replace it all with a new open system accessible to all, then I'd say Bosmer, Khajiit, Argonians and Dunmer should get progress on that line faster than other races. They are the stealthy races after all.
A "system outside the races" still needs ties to the races, if the racial passives don't cover everything they should. If they don't have these ties and the racial passives stay as they are, then ZOS isn't staying true to their lore and is still messing with one of the Bosmers' core identities.

MLGProPlayer

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

It's hard not to be aware of this thread. It's been on the front page with 100+ upvotes for over a month now. But ZOS being aware of something doesn't mean they will actually do something about it (using the past as precedent, more often than not, they won't do anything about it).

BlueRaven

Oh and I bumped into @Shimmer (also super nice!) and she told me that she mentioned the Bosmer/stealth issue to the devs!

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

If it's available to all, then Bosmer will still be tied for worst stealthy race. Lore is still desecrated.

Would it really be gamebreaking to swap the unusable in PvE and questionably effective in PvP "stealth detection" back to the previous stealth radius reduction, minus the 10% damage bonus?

Just put it back (minus the bonus damage) and include a note that the racial stealth bonuses are going to be re-evaluated pending a new legerdemain system.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sounds definitely interesting. If they are going to remove the Khajiit 3meter radius and the Bosmer detection to replace it all with a new open system accessible to all, then I'd say Bosmer, Khajiit, Argonians and Dunmer should get progress on that line faster than other races. They are the stealthy races after all.
A "system outside the races" still needs ties to the races, if the racial passives don't cover everything they should. If they don't have these ties and the racial passives stay as they are, then ZOS isn't staying true to their lore and is still messing with one of the Bosmers' core identities.

At the very least, this.

Still does nothing for the fact that Bosmer are crap archers, though. Ok, fine, they're average archers. But that's the problem.

Alaya

I feel like if they'd just like give stealth back and change that dodge roll to something like 3% more damage with ranged weaponry, we'd be fine, right?

A_Silverius

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok let me tell you what was said and how it went down.

While leaving, I bumped into the guy who is in charge of combat and pvp(?) he was on stage during the presentation.

(As a side note, earlier I also had a nice short conversation with the guy in charge of dungeons except I did not recognize him as the guy in charge of dungeons. We had a nice conversation about... Dungeons.)

Anyway, so after some pleasentries I said;
“Ok, I have to ask, Bosmer and stealth.” Just like that.

And he said he knew about the controversy and hinted at this thread. They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early. He was extremely nice about it and it did not feel like he was trying to push me off with a maybe. We had a short discussion about what the tree might look like and that was it.

I left the conversation very pleased.

Keep in mind that if/when they do implement the tree, bosmers and kahjits May loose anything that says stealth from their passives (this is my supposition not his). Which will even out the stealth issues. I know bosmers won’t be best in stealth, but in Skyrim (eventually) all races can be equally good in stealth and I ok with that.

At least it will be better then what we have currently.

Ok back to driving.

Thanks for asking on our behalf! Glad you enjoyed your time there:)

A_Silverius

Jaraal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

They want to open stealth gameplay to all and they are planning on a dedicated stealth skill line but it’s all very early.

Kind of like, Legerdemain/Thieves Guild 2.0?


But anyway, thank you for talking to them about it for us! Your efforts are much appreciated!

Maaaaybeeee, their working on more thieves guild/dark brotherhood story content? I think its about time we got more of those! I do hope that the stuff they are working on includes more options for racial passives though with a skill point limit like 9/9 max racial points to keep things balanced.

Living_Ded

My poor Bosmers were stripped of their racials.
When I read the patch notes I was pretty disappointed.
Just wanted to add my $.02 to make sure we're heard.

Jaraal

Alaya wrote: »

I feel like if they'd just like give stealth back and change that dodge roll to something like 3% more damage with ranged weaponry, we'd be fine, right?

That'd be ok with me.

TBH, I feel embarrassed being forced to roll around like Sonic The Hedgehog every six seconds, and if I just don't do it, then it makes me mad that I'm missing out on some extra damage and speed, regardless of how inconsequential it may or may not be. The whole new Bosmer passive group just seems like a hastily cobbled together afterthought. I honestly can't think of anything they could do to make it worse.

Any changes would be welcome!

Uryel

So, they're thinking about a way to open stealth to everyone ? That's good. I'll think about re-subbing when they actually do it.

Something I have noted recently, too, with the recent event that was about thieves guild and dark brotherhood, is how heist and sacrament missions are NOT representative of stealthy gameplay.

When we started complaining about losing the stealth bonus, people said "I maxed out both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on <insert some non stealthy character here>, it's easy and you're just whiners". Well, now that I replayed those missions, I'll agree with them, it's easy. It's easy because those are not stealth missions.

Those missions are about mobility, not noticeability. You need to move fast from one forced and awkward hiding spot (even labelled as such) to another, else the super magic lamp of the guard will reveal you, even if you are using an invisibility potion. Those missions consist of large hjallways in which staying out of sight is easy, and forced tight hallways with convenient hiding spots. It's easy, once you get the rythm of it, you just give a wide berthe to everything, and time your movements out of the big bad evil magic circles of invisibility breaking.

How is that stealth ? Stealth is being able to go through a tight hallway because you're THAT good at hiding. It's about timing the use of a concealment skill or potion so that you can actually squeeze between guards when required. It's not about hiding in the convenient cloth basket that for some reason exists even in a daedric temple or a sewer to avoid the magic lanterns that are so good the all-seeing, ever-watching eye of Sauron seems lackluster.

Basically, those missions feel forced, contrived, and awkward. The actual stealth in those DLC happens in the story quests, or the minor missions that happen in open world (but in the latter, only if you care to avoid bounty), but not in heists and sacraments. Those are more like Quick Time Events.

Truthsnark

Thank you BlueRaven for your dogged persistence!

Also guys, I....became a vampire last night.

I just missed my sneak speed so much. I used to be able to run Night's Silence + Night Mother's Embrace and a monster set, because of my natural stealth bonus. When they took our stealth bonus, I had to pull in Night Terror and lose my monster set, plus do awkward bar swaps to even get close to what I had before.

Now I can use my monster set again, but I look like a hot mess. I just want my stealth bonus back.

BlueRaven

Truthsnark wrote: »

Thank you BlueRaven for your dogged persistence!

Also guys, I....became a vampire last night.

I just missed my sneak speed so much. I used to be able to run Night's Silence + Night Mother's Embrace and a monster set, because of my natural stealth bonus. When they took our stealth bonus, I had to pull in Night Terror and lose my monster set, plus do awkward bar swaps to even get close to what I had before.

Now I can use my monster set again, but I look like a hot mess. I just want my stealth bonus back.

Last time I checked, if you wear a disguise, the kind you wear for quests, it reverts your appearance back to how you created your character.

I hope that helps!

Raammzzaa

Truthsnark wrote: »

Thank you BlueRaven for your dogged persistence!

Also guys, I....became a vampire last night.

I just missed my sneak speed so much. I used to be able to run Night's Silence + Night Mother's Embrace and a monster set, because of my natural stealth bonus. When they took our stealth bonus, I had to pull in Night Terror and lose my monster set, plus do awkward bar swaps to even get close to what I had before.

Now I can use my monster set again, but I look like a hot mess. I just want my stealth bonus back.

I have the new "Arctic Rime Skin" on my Bosmer vampire, which was illustrated in another thread to hide vampirism very well. It does a good job. I like how there is still light white streaks in spots that kind of make it look like she is wearing make-up to hide her vampirism. You may wish to consider this option too, at least until/if Bosmer stealth is addressed.

anadandy

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not jazzed about the Bosmer racial being replaced by a stealth line - however, I am slightly heartened that they seem to be aware that we're out here.

They still handled it badly - if the line was coming they should have waited to make such a drastic change to the race until it was in a state where they could talk about it - for me that would have made a big difference. I will stay cautiously optimistic for now.

And you talked to Brian Wheeler! [insert flailing hands gif]

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not jazzed about the Bosmer racial being replaced by a stealth line - however, I am slightly heartened that they seem to be aware that we're out here.

They still handled it badly - if the line was coming they should have waited to make such a drastic change to the race until it was in a state where they could talk about it - for me that would have made a big difference. I will stay cautiously optimistic for now.

And you talked to Brian Wheeler! [insert flailing hands gif]

That was really cool. But I still can’t believe I got a selfie with Pete Hines!

Truthsnark

Thank you for the suggestions on the vampirism appearance issue! I bought the rime skin with some gems I had and it's OK, not great, but OK, and CERTAINLY BETTER than the alternative.

However ideally I'd like my stealth bonus back, please and thank you.

KMarble

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Btw, the rumor of what class changes might be gets two responses.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465659/where-were-the-upcoming-class-changes-officially-released-at/p1

Here, 45+ pages, nothing.

The way I see it there's no way for ZOS to give an answer here that will do less harm than just not saying anything.

So this is just a tug of war between the people in this thread and ZOS. The first side to let go loses. Though I really wonder how long ZOS can keep this up.

I'd prefer if someone came to this thread and said something along the lines of "we're aware of your complaints but can't talk about it right now".

Most people posting here are (I hope) mature enough to understand that the devs cannot share everything, and even a single reply like what I posted above would generate some good will IMO.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Thank you for keeping us updated. Glad to know you had a great time.

Uryel wrote: »

So, they're thinking about a way to open stealth to everyone ? That's good. I'll think about re-subbing when they actually do it.

Something I have noted recently, too, with the recent event that was about thieves guild and dark brotherhood, is how heist and sacrament missions are NOT representative of stealthy gameplay.

When we started complaining about losing the stealth bonus, people said "I maxed out both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on <insert some non stealthy character here>, it's easy and you're just whiners". Well, now that I replayed those missions, I'll agree with them, it's easy. It's easy because those are not stealth missions.

Those missions are about mobility, not noticeability. You need to move fast from one forced and awkward hiding spot (even labelled as such) to another, else the super magic lamp of the guard will reveal you, even if you are using an invisibility potion. Those missions consist of large hjallways in which staying out of sight is easy, and forced tight hallways with convenient hiding spots. It's easy, once you get the rythm of it, you just give a wide berthe to everything, and time your movements out of the big bad evil magic circles of invisibility breaking.

How is that stealth ? Stealth is being able to go through a tight hallway because you're THAT good at hiding. It's about timing the use of a concealment skill or potion so that you can actually squeeze between guards when required. It's not about hiding in the convenient cloth basket that for some reason exists even in a daedric temple or a sewer to avoid the magic lanterns that are so good the all-seeing, ever-watching eye of Sauron seems lackluster.

Basically, those missions feel forced, contrived, and awkward. The actual stealth in those DLC happens in the story quests, or the minor missions that happen in open world (but in the latter, only if you care to avoid bounty), but not in heists and sacraments. Those are more like Quick Time Events.

Thank you! Unlike you, I started TG and DB just a few weeks before the event, but got the same feeling you got. More than once I caught myself complaining about this to my (very bored) husband, which was the reason I said a few days ago in this thread that what the devs consider "stealth" is different from what I consider stealth.