Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

MLGProPlayer

52 pages, 130 upvotes, and still no comment from ZOS.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone. First of all, you aren't wrong. We agree we haven't been communicating as much as we should on this matter (among others) and for that, we apologize. There really is no excuse.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

While we do have a backlog of improvements identified for the game, it’s clear we could do a better job of answering those kinds of inquiries, both for the player community and ourselves.

In time we’ll also want to share more about the vision and strategy that will drive future combat updates.

azjuwelz

"Ratzkifal wrote: »

@azjuwelz Seeing how it's still patch 4.3.9 I seriously doubt any bug has been fixed since I tested that. You still get reduced detection radius from medium armor and the direction the player is facing is also important. Without screenshots it's hard to tell what it was in your case.

Ah, that makes sense--I'm pretty sure they weren't directly turned towards me.

Yeah, I'd still prefer the old bonus. And yes, when I was creating the character, I DID look at the (old) race passives as part of my decision-making process. Not to be BIS, but more in the spirit of roleplay.

Jaraal

Wonder when they're going to update the character select screen with the correct information?

BlueRaven

Jaraal wrote: »

Wonder when they're going to update the character select screen with the correct information?

Wait what? I thought that said "stealth detect" since the new update?

wedgebert

Mine does say stealth detection and poison resistance.

Ratzkifal

Mine also says stealth detect. However, this is the Morrowind character creator and I have Summerset. Perhaps it is different if you don't have Summerset?

Cundu_Ertur

Exactly HOW is Bosmer archery improved, oh by the way? Orcs, Dunmer, Reguards, and Imperials have more improvements to archery than Bosmer. So that's another line that needs to be removed. I'd suggest, "Bosmer excel at rolling around in the filth like the disgusting vermin that they are," to better reflect the developers' actual feelings about Bosmers.

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Exactly HOW is Bosmer archery improved, oh by the way? Orcs, Dunmer, Reguards, and Imperials have more improvements to archery than Bosmer. So that's another line that needs to be removed. I'd suggest, "Bosmer excel at rolling around in the filth like the disgusting vermin that they are," to better reflect the developers' actual feelings about Bosmers.

Because we learn bows faster. Obviously being a good archer means you learn fast, not that you're actually better with a bow.

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Exactly HOW is Bosmer archery improved, oh by the way? Orcs, Dunmer, Reguards, and Imperials have more improvements to archery than Bosmer. So that's another line that needs to be removed. I'd suggest, "Bosmer excel at rolling around in the filth like the disgusting vermin that they are," to better reflect the developers' actual feelings about Bosmers.

Well, bosmer roll-dodge speed nicely stacks with bow major expedition roll-dodge. Extra sustain is interchangeable with damage as you may see from susmitds's tests. Given that other races don't have any bonuses related directly to bow (cost reduction is more then compensated by bosmer's recovery), that part of the description is true. Also additional benefit of Senche (ironically set is named after khajiits but related to bosmer's passive ><) is that it can be used on one bar. Still no use in PVE group content, but in all other types of content it rocks.

So for example you take maelstrom's or master's bow and senche 2H or DW. If during roll-dodge you bar swap from melee to bow, on roll-dodge exit you will receive extra speed, senche's bonus and major expedition. Then, if some enemy got off-balanced, you actually don't need fully charged heavy attack to knock him down, slightly charged heavy attack will do. How this is related to bow? Melee heavy attack can be blocked and requires to return back to enemy from whom you roll-dodge. Bow heavy attack doesn't require to return back and even if blocked it won't stun you. And +10% to speed gives you distance necessary to perform that "not fully charged heavy attack". So in terms of synergy of bow and roll-dodge other races are not even close. How this is connected to lore is another question.

A_Silverius

Decsription should say Bosmers excel at cheese rolling :^)

Browiseth

hooo boy. 53 pages...at a certain point the devs have to realise there's a problem

Ratzkifal

About the bow thing, I am not that upset about it to be honest. Sure, I think we could do better and make Bosmer Archers unrivaled to give them a better identity. Perhaps, give them something to make bow/bow more viable.

But I have no issue with Orcs, Dunmer and Redguard being equal in terms of dps with Bosmer on bows as in Daggerfall Dunmer are described as follows

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves."

Orcs weren't mentioned in Daggerfall as they were not playable back then, but realistically speaking, bows take a lot of strength to draw. They have a certain draw weight which is directly proportional to your penetration depth and range. Counter to what Holliwood has you believe, being an archer takes a lot of strength meaning Orcs should have a real advantage with long bows over other races.

Ideally Bosmer should have a "cheating passive" like Imperial tanks have with their 3% cost reduction to block. Bosmer may not be stronger than Orcs, Nords, Dunmer etc, but they should get something that allows them to keep up. For Imperial tanks you could argue that their discipline and training makes their technique superior even when they lack sturdiness. They are being smart about it. Similarly Bosmer should have a bonus like that to bows in my opinion. Unfortunately we can't give them a 10% cost reduction to bow abilities as ZOS would probably feel that to be too similar to Redguard. I like permanent penetration as it could be explained with them being more accurate and aiming for the weaknesses, which wouldn't be useless on other weapons and I think I heard that penetration gets more effective the higher your crit chance and Bows give crit chance as a passive.

Accordingly my suggestion for a reworked Hunter's Eye would look something like this:

Ideal Hunter:

• Reduce the radius in which you can be detected by 3m.
• Gain 750 physical penetration.
• After dodgerolling, increase your movement speed by 10% for 6seconds.

The amount of penetration must obviously be further balanced. I have no idea how much 750 really is, but I felt that 1500 would probably be too much if it was permanently active. The name is obviously subject to change. I was also considering calling it "nimble hunter". An "eye" has nothing to do with dodgeroll movement speed anyway. I do think that nobody would mind this change too much though as stealth reduction is undeniably more universally useful than detection, permanent penetration is more reliable and the dodgeroll gotta go fast stays without shoehorning into those roll builds.

Umbraniel

max_only wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been a stealth based race and the main reason to choose these tiny characters is their innate stealth. PVE enemies in this game do not hide, so changing these characters to detect hidden enemies removes an enjoyable and realistic game mechanic and provides no benefit.

I have given feedback regarding the proposed change to this passive here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary/p1
And I have polled the forum with the conclusion that no one uses stealth detection in pve here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458818/do-you-use-stealth-detect-in-pve/p1

Firstly, Wood Elves have always had a head-start bonus to the stealth attribute for the past 5 Elder Scrolls titles. In 3 of those titles, they had a greater bonus to sneaking than any other race. For 5 years in TESO we have used this passive to great effect in all game modes. It is a valuable passive as evidenced by: the continuation (and even improvement) of stealth for Khajiits; two zone DLCs that benefit from this passive; trial and dungeon mechanics that take advantage of being in stealth; and the number of dismayed replies on your official forums.

In the developer notes it states that “many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!” The conclusion to replace it with 3 meter stealth detection is a contradiction because if enemies can’t be bothered to stealth, then we don’t need to detect stealth enemies. There isn’t any pve content available in the game that uses stealth detection. In pvp, 3 meters is actually a negligible amount of stealth detection because of how pvp is currently played. Stealth is used from a distance in order to stack bonuses from the Bow skill line. Stealth in melee range, at the pace of the current pvp climate, requires a skill (Vampire or Nightblade) or a potion. Being able to detect within 3 meters is not enough time to even block before a blow from stealth. “Gankers” will not disappear with the removal of this Wood Elf passive, they will just switch to Khajiit for the crits.

The identity of this race, from the first game, have been stealthy archers and thieves. It needs to remain an innate ability of the smallest race in the game to hide better than the largest. Moving this out of the racial passive and into another skill line is not a solution because a large character, such as a Nord, is realistically not as sneaky as the smallest characters. This change goes against the original vision, the established precedent, in-universe realism, and the lore within the game itself. The point of choosing the smallest character model in the game is that it’s better at hiding.

Regarding your dev note, “Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other.“ Players expect that the smallest characters are the sneakiest, and the effort to make this minor distinction is not worth the cost of removing the main appeal of choosing Wood Elf. Khajiit and Wood Elf are already distinct enough from each other, in physical design and fighting style.

Please, reconsider this change. Stealthiness is THE identifying attribute to this race. The proposed change to this passive is disruptive and counterintuitive. Wood Elf hiding ability has been an established precedent for all 5 TES games and the past 5 years in this game.

I love when the community cares this much.

Tigerseye

AngelFires333 wrote: »

I blame Trump.

I blame that guy who looks like a bad tempered walrus.

Apparently, he called for this in between demanding endless wars...

Jaraal wrote: »

Wonder when they're going to update the character select screen with the correct information?

Amateurs.

Night_Wolf2112

^^ It's too bad ESO developers dont care this much.

Tigerseye

wedgebert wrote: »

Another interesting thing about that photo is that it also shows how people tend to think of Khajiit vs Bosmer.

Bosmer: cannibalistic theives

My Bosmer doesn't eat other Bosmer.

In fact, she is thinking of going pollo-pescetarian.

She doesn't care what other Bosmer think about her eating habits.

Cundu_Ertur

So

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Given that other races don't have any bonuses related directly to bow (cost reduction is more then compensated by bosmer's recovery), that part of the description is true.

Except that's not a given. 258 weapon damage includes the bow. The races that have that, Orc and Dunmer, are also consistently 1 and 2 on the DPS tests susmitds did. Bosmer are barely above 'no racial' for half of the tests, stamplar being the most significant exception.

The example you give (with its completely-never-mentioned-in-lore-required-set) can easily be performed by an Orc or Dunmer wearing the same armor and with the same CP perks just relying on the roll-dodge speed boost of Hasty Retreat. And they can do it better, since they get the additional weapon damage from their much-less-useless racial passive. They don't just match the Bosmer supposed 'synergy,' they smash it to smithereens.

IIRC there was some other testing on the sustain for Bosmer vs Redguard, and in combat (when it matters most) the two were nearly identical, so to say that the ability discount is matched by sustain is also inaccurate. For Imperials, who share their sustain with stamina and health, it may be more of a match perhaps. So tied for 4th best archers, maybe, at best.

The diversified racial skills of the Wood Elves reflect their woodland affinity. Improved archery, stamina, stamina recovery, stealth, reduced fall damage, and disease resistance make them dangerous foes.

No other race's in game description got as mangled as this. Argonians come close with two things, healing received and poison resistance. Altmer have a valid gripe about losing magic sustain. Dunmer initially complained about their fire damage, but that's not a lore thing, it was an ESO gameplay only thing, and besides it was replaced with something better. Bosmer got gutted.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

About the bow thing, I am not that upset about it to be honest. Sure, I think we could do better and make Bosmer Archers unrivaled to give them a better identity. Perhaps, give them something to make bow/bow more viable.

But I have no issue with Orcs, Dunmer and Redguard being equal in terms of dps with Bosmer on bows as in Daggerfall Dunmer are described as follows

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves."

Orcs weren't mentioned in Daggerfall as they were not playable back then, but realistically speaking, bows take a lot of strength to draw. They have a certain draw weight which is directly proportional to your penetration depth and range. Counter to what Holliwood has you believe, being an archer takes a lot of strength meaning Orcs should have a real advantage with long bows over other races.

Ideally Bosmer should have a "cheating passive" like Imperial tanks have with their 3% cost reduction to block. Bosmer may not be stronger than Orcs, Nords, Dunmer etc, but they should get something that allows them to keep up. For Imperial tanks you could argue that their discipline and training makes their technique superior even when they lack sturdiness. They are being smart about it. Similarly Bosmer should have a bonus like that to bows in my opinion. Unfortunately we can't give them a 10% cost reduction to bow abilities as ZOS would probably feel that to be too similar to Redguard. I like permanent penetration as it could be explained with them being more accurate and aiming for the weaknesses, which wouldn't be useless on other weapons and I think I heard that penetration gets more effective the higher your crit chance and Bows give crit chance as a passive.

Accordingly my suggestion for a reworked Hunter's Eye would look something like this:

Ideal Hunter:

• Reduce the radius in which you can be detected by 3m.
• Gain 750 physical penetration.
• After dodgerolling, increase your movement speed by 10% for 6seconds.

The amount of penetration must obviously be further balanced. I have no idea how much 750 really is, but I felt that 1500 would probably be too much if it was permanently active. The name is obviously subject to change. I was also considering calling it "nimble hunter". An "eye" has nothing to do with dodgeroll movement speed anyway. I do think that nobody would mind this change too much though as stealth reduction is undeniably more universally useful than detection, permanent penetration is more reliable and the dodgeroll gotta go fast stays without shoehorning into those roll builds.

I do not disagree with anything you say about Orcs and Dunmer. However, I would start by looking at the lore for an answer as to how to make Bosmer better archers. And in this case it provided two possible answers. Range and speed. Range is repeatedly documented (Words and Philosophy, the Marksmanship Lesson), as is speed (snatch and release is described in The Gold Ribbon of Merit and other sources). Range is problematic, though, for PVP; which leaves speed. So what would the impact be to make Bosmer 3/6/10% faster with attacks and abilities using a bow?

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

So what would the impact be to make Bosmer 3/6/10% faster with attacks and abilities using a bow?

I feel like that would be a whole new can of worms to open in terms of balance. Sure, it would be innovative and unique, but just imagine the bugs and weird animation glitches. ZOS currently seems to be trying to unify cast times to make weaving easier. Those 10% would completely mess with that if they applied to all animations and cast times (Bosmer Snipe OP PLZ NERF). That only leaves light attacks and having 10% faster light attacks means you need to click 10% faster in combat. That probably feels a bit stressful compared to other races. It could work for other types of games were you have an autoattack feature like League of Legends or WoW, but I just can't see it for ESO despite how accurate it would be.

Koronach

The fact that Zo$ stood up in front of everyone and lied, bothers me. They said at the event they pay attention to the lore, They said on the forums they wanted to preserve and maintain established lore. Then they turn around and gut races lore and immersion that has been in game and established lore for 5 years. I guess one of the requirements for working at Zo$/Bugthesda is to be a chronic liar. Now they are going to gut classes and other passives. They act like this game is still in open Beta. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert When making bold statements like that you really should back it up and stay in communication with the people playing your game. Listening to only the 1% Class reps/Streamers isn't the best way to go about it. @ZOS_LeamonTuttle as the new Loremaster how can you be ok with them breaking established lore like they did? As new Loremaster you start with them breaking established game lore and not doing anything about it, not a good start. I gave up on the Argo threads our representation on the forums as a race is abysmally low combined with people can't be bothered to sign up for the forums.

Ratzkifal

Koronach wrote: »

The fact that Zo$ stood up in front of everyone and lied, bothers me. They said at the event they pay attention to the lore, They said on the forums they wanted to preserve and maintain established lore. Then they turn around and gut races lore and immersion that has been in game and established lore for 5 years. I guess one of the requirements for working at Zo$/Bugthesda is to be a chronic liar. Now they are going to gut classes and other passives. They act like this game is still in open Beta. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert When making bold statements like that you really should back it up and stay in communication with the people playing your game. Listening to only the 1% Class reps/Streamers isn't the best way to go about it. @ZOS_LeamonTuttle as the new Loremaster how can you be ok with them breaking established lore like they did? As new Loremaster you start with them breaking established game lore and not doing anything about it, not a good start. I gave up on the Argo threads our representation on the forums as a race is abysmally low combined with people can't be bothered to sign up for the forums.

I feel like the Argonian issue is a bit too complicated on too many levels. Your entire set of passives apart from the potion passive feels lacking and the potion passive is actually only effective as long as you keep spending time and resources in alchemy, which I personally think is a flaw worse than the stamina cost on dodgeroll keeping Hunter's Eye from being useful. Then again, it has also a lot more power as immediate restore can be a life saver in an emergency while gradual restore won't help when you are out of resources and low on health. Your best bet is that they'll eventually overhaul the entire set of argonian passives, because ZOS doesn't see anything broken with it. You could make the argument about the resistance being lore breaking, which I agree on, but then again it's also nothing new for Argonians and Bosmer to have only one of their resistances represented. Disease resistance feels a bit more important on Argonians to me because of the whole Knahaten flu killing everyone (even Bosmer) but not Argonians. That's why I suggested that Argonians should have poison resistance and 1.5 times as much disease resistance with Bosmer having it the other way around. You have your reasons and your goals are noble, but with Bethesda having already stripped poison resistance off them once in Skyrim, ZOS has a precedent to do the same, which is more than unfortunate. Good times will come back eventually!

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Except that's not a given. 258 weapon damage includes the bow. The races that have that, Orc and Dunmer, are also consistently 1 and 2 on the DPS tests susmitds did. Bosmer are barely above 'no racial' for half of the tests, stamplar being the most significant exception.

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

wedgebert

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

No one is saying we're not in a better place than we were, but that's 100% due to the changes to the our other two passives from percent increases to flat values. Not a single person in this thread that I've seen has said we should revert or change those passives. We are only upset at how bad and lore breaking Hunter's Eye is.

I used the 10% stealth bonus damage in PvE because I did a lot of stealthing. It wasn't a big benefit since it was only for one attack and was either wasted on trash that died fast or on a boss that didn't even notice, but at least it was something. Now Hunter's Eye is 100% a PvP passive. If I'm doing a normal dungeon/trail, my base pen plus group buffs means that I don't need 1,500 bonus pen. And in veteran, it's not contributing much of anything because there's not much roll-dodging going on.

Roll dodging is always a DPS loss with regards to Hunter's Eye. Even with set bonuses, the damage lost by not attacking during the roll, plus attacked lost due to the stamina cost means you'll ever make up for it with the bonus damage you're getting. So that means you only will have hunter's eye up if you roll defensively. In PvP, sure everyone rolls all the time, but it's still not enough damage to even notice. And in PvE you rarely have to roll, so your uptime is going to be low. I'd be surprised if Hunters' Eye contributed to 0.5% of your damage in a veteran boss fight.

So Bosmer went from being optimized to cancerous PvP builds to being optimized for impractical niche PvP builds. Not really an improvement.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

In PvP you try to get as much penetration as possible and those 1500 contribute to that as you will ideally also have set your enemy offbalance. The other thing is sustain which is key in PvP. The one with the better sustain will win a drawn-out fight. So in that sense, Bosmer are good for Burst dps as sustained dps doesn't work in PvP and you'll attempt to strike within the 6 seconds of your passive for higher burst. So burst builds benefit the most from Bosmer passive compared to others.

However, I feel like most of what you said is redundant because MartiniDaniels is as concerned about the lore and stealth as we are. I think he only tried to make Cundu_Ertur feel better about the dps data as it doesn't suggest that Bosmer suck as stam dps (or bow for that matter)

MartiniDaniels

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You must mention though that in many cases even OP orc is only slightly (2.5k) above "no racial". So it all just shows that those 258 weapon damage is not that big an issue, and also those tests were made in "ideal" conditions so in any variation from ideal, be it mechanics, stun, moving between targets and so on, bosmer will be coming forward, since passive recovery in comparison to absorb stamina enchantments of dunmer/orc and proc stamina return of redguard and imperial, passive recovery works always no matter what.
Bro, it's up to you how you perceive facts and tests, and if you prefer to think that bosmer is "weak race". I deeply hurt by losing stealth (stealing was always one of my favorite things in all ES games), but combat wise bosmer was considerably buffed with new racials and I'm having great times now in all roles with exception of healer.
Before we had lesser stamina then redguard, less recovery then redguard (if not stacked to huge numbers) and shared damage from stealth with khajiit and that damage was useful only in cancerous builds in PVP and for one-shot of mobs. If anything bosmer was really one of the weakest if not the weakest race in ESO in U20, good for nothing with exception of snipe exploit. Now we have same stamina as everyone, literally best recovery of main resource from all races in real conditions, best mobility if using bow and best burst potential in balanced PVP builds.

No one is saying we're not in a better place than we were, but that's 100% due to the changes to the our other two passives from percent increases to flat values. Not a single person in this thread that I've seen has said we should revert or change those passives. We are only upset at how bad and lore breaking Hunter's Eye is.

I used the 10% stealth bonus damage in PvE because I did a lot of stealthing. It wasn't a big benefit since it was only for one attack and was either wasted on trash that died fast or on a boss that didn't even notice, but at least it was something. Now Hunter's Eye is 100% a PvP passive. If I'm doing a normal dungeon/trail, my base pen plus group buffs means that I don't need 1,500 bonus pen. And in veteran, it's not contributing much of anything because there's not much roll-dodging going on.

Roll dodging is always a DPS loss with regards to Hunter's Eye. Even with set bonuses, the damage lost by not attacking during the roll, plus attacked lost due to the stamina cost means you'll ever make up for it with the bonus damage you're getting. So that means you only will have hunter's eye up if you roll defensively. In PvP, sure everyone rolls all the time, but it's still not enough damage to even notice. And in PvE you rarely have to roll, so your uptime is going to be low. I'd be surprised if Hunters' Eye contributed to 0.5% of your damage in a veteran boss fight.

So Bosmer went from being optimized to cancerous PvP builds to being optimized for impractical niche PvP builds. Not really an improvement.

I still don't understand this whole "Bosmer are a burst dps race". We have nothing that contributes to burst damage as we're a sustain race. Orcs and Dunmer can burst as they can do more damage in the same time frame, but have to spend more time recovering.

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

Lylith

Browiseth wrote: »

hooo boy. 53 pages...at a certain point the devs have to realise there's a problem

i admire your optimism.

wedgebert

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Basically in PvE, Bosmer get a 10% speed bonus for 6 seconds with maybe a little bit of tickle damage in higher levels. It's just too little damage in too sporadic a time period. It's weaker than the Orc or Dunmer buffs in a perfect 100% uptime scenario. In the real world it's going to preform even worse.

And it even goes against one of their rationale of why Altmer were changed. Spell Recharge now returns stamina because they didn't want a damage class to also have a sustain bonus. So why are Bosmer, a sustain race, getting a damage bonus?

CassandraGemini

So, I've just realized that with all the discussions about skyshards that have been going on in the past weeks, I've never actually taken the time to write something here. Maybe it was just because I figured that it wouldn't matter anyway, since this thread keeps getting longer and longer and the devs do not seem to care one bit... but then again I don't believe in the philosophy of keeping one's mouth shut because, in the grand scheme of things, one person's opinion is irrelevant anyway, so here are my 2 cents on this topic (even though on all the 53 pages of this thread everything I'm going to bring up will have already been said more than once, but still).

I created my main Bosmer girl the way she is, because I specifically like to play rogue or thief characters. Whenever there is a class in a game that involves stealthily killing your targets from the shadows, stealing from them or sniping them with a bow, that's the one I'll choose. It's just my preferred playstyle, so when looking at the various passives the races have (or had I should say now) to offer, I knew right away that my main would be a Bosmer. It just seemed to fit and I had a great deal of fun with my girl - from the moment I started playing until the racial passive changes hit.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing her anymore. Of course I still do, she's my main and although I have an emotional connection to all my characters, my connection to her is the deepest, and I didn't even consider race changing her to Khajiit, since my characters are more to me than just placeholders for "most efficient stamblade dd/templar healer/DK tank", etc. They grow on me and every single one of them stays just the way they are.
Still, that doesn't change the fact that she's not what she used to be. She used to be able to perfectly clear Thieves Guild heists in 5 to 6 minutes without being seen even once. Same with Dark Brotherhood sacraments - once upon a time she was so good in what she did, she even got the Flawless Sacrament achievement.
Now, of course, that wouldn't be possible anymore, since she gets detected all the time, in situtations that would have only made her smirk about her own vast superiority before. Now, not so much.

Sure, I really like the other two passives, they're nothing but beneficial. But Hunter's Eye? Didn't get even one skill point from me. The penetration bonus could be nice if it weren't so highly conditional, and the stealth detection bonus? Give me a break. As it stands this passive might be okay for pvp (can't really say, since I don't pvp more than I need to for certain skills), but for pve it's all but useless.

So much for better "balancing".

OsManiaC

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

Ratzkifal

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

BaTtLgRoUnDs Of CoUrSe!

CassandraGemini

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

I suspect there'll be an official response in the next livestream. Something along the lines of: "Rejoice, all you people who want the Bosmer stealth passive back! You can now buy it in the Crown Store for 10000 crowns!"