Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Jaraal

OsManiaC wrote: »

why still we don't get a response?

- I want to learn where can I use "Stealth detection" in Tamriel except - cyroodiil

Maybe they have future plans to make DLC dungeons have hidden boss mechanics, so that groups looking to farm expensive motifs will have to hire Bosmer tanks to taunt the hidden bosses. This would certainly get people interested in playing wood elves again! Although, of course, tanks are unlikely to be rolling around on the ground like clowns.... so every Bosmer DPS will be queuing as a fake tank to get into a group right away.... at least until they rage quit from the repeated "failed to join the group" notification, that is.

Can't wait to be able to justify spending skill points on Hunter's Eye! Hurry up with the new hidden boss dungeons already, ZOS!

max_only

I’m thinking there will be a quest with actually stealthed Khajiit npcs. Like how there were “trespassing” quests in Morrowind.
So they can say “see, we told you you will need it! XD”

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

I’m thinking there will be a quest with actually stealthed Khajiit npcs. Like how there were “trespassing” quests in Morrowind.
So they can say “see, we told you you will need it! XD”

Lol, could you imagine the uproar from non-Bosmer completionists?


(Guild1) "Hey, everybody, I finished every quest in the game..... where's my Tamriel Hero title?"

(Guild1) "You a Bosmer bro?"

(Guild1) "No, why?"

(Guild1) "Then you never finished the stealth detection quests! Kick rocks, scrub!"

Koronach

Koronach wrote: »

I still like this idea to fix this issue.

Argonian

• Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Wood Elf

• Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison and Disease Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.

They aren't exactly the same and still follows the base lore of ESO better.

For the resistances at least. Instead of just removing one from each they should of did something like this for the sake of not breaking ESO's lore.

Ratzkifal

Koronach wrote: »

I still like this idea to fix this issue.

Argonian

• Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease and Poison Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Wood Elf

• Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison and Disease Resistance by 2310 or lower for balance. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.

They aren't exactly the same and still follows the base lore of ESO better.
For the resistances at least. Instead of just removing one from each they should of did something like this for the sake of not breaking ESO's lore.

I don't think it works like that. Previously that immunity was perhaps a bug turned feature as it was there but not mentioned in the text. I remember my pvp guild going crazy when they figured out Bosmer was immune to Major defile, only for it to turn out that it was just the diseased status effect and other sources of defile still applied. But hey, I still like your idea and maybe it does work just like that.

Sylvermynx

Jeez, how did this wind up on page 3? And here I'm not even one who DOES stealth bosmer!

Ratzkifal

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Jeez, how did this wind up on page 3? And here I'm not even one who DOES stealth bosmer!

I didn't feel like responding to myself. Currently there is not a lot we can talk about except that there is still no OFFICIAL response. Only unofficial no-ETA no-promise maybe. I'm also not sure we can turn this into a meme channel about stealth memes or ZOS memes to pass the time until an official response comes as that would probably be considered "derailing".

Once PTS starts we can be active again and call for a follow-up on race changes in U21. I've just seen a video where a guy goes through the math of 2% increased healing done and calculates when it outperforms 129 spell damage in order to better determine how good of a set piece bonus it is. It turns out the tipping point at which 2% increased healing done is equal to 129 spell damage is at around 5000 spell damage. If you have more than 5000 spell damage, your healing will benefit more from 2% healing done than 129 spell damage. Seeing how Altmer get 258 spell damage and Argonians only meager 6% healing done, Altmer is far superior in terms of healing. The Argonian sustain is not that great either, so they really don't have a lot of advantages over Altmer (aka none at all). That alone would be enough reason for me to follow up on the racial rebalance in U22. Fixing more than just Bosmer stealth will also make ZOS look better as they didn't just "give in to a vocal minority" but had more data suggesting yadda yadda yadda. If they aren't satisfied with the Nord ult generation then they'd probably do that too. I'm just hoping they are actually going to do it and not let us remain in this limbo of uncertainty.

Sylvermynx

I don't really have any feel for the numbers like that. I mean, I just crip along with my girls and minor quests/exploring plus the event stuff for mains, and lowbies that need easy XP.

Ratzkifal

What we could talk about is the supposed skill line. I don't have a whole lot of ideas for it as Legerdemain, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood already cover a ton of things. Passives that aren't really available yet is reduced detection radius to help with trespassing.
To be honest I'm not sure how ZOS wants to "open up stealth" even further. I don't think they are planning to give more sources of invisibility to the players as that would diminish the uniqueness of Nightblades. So detection radius is pretty much the only other option. But how do you fill an entire line of passives with that? Unless they are doing some combining of existing legerdemain passives and adding new components to them, there is not much room to move in.
I don't think they are going to fundamentally change the way stealth works, as that's been more or less consistent with the way it was in Skyrim. So there aren't really a whole lot of new avenues left to open. Perhaps sneaking speed is still an option though.

None of that addresses the issue of Bosmer stealth though unless they give Bosmer a bonus on earning these, which would still have the same problems as the archery being underrepresented in the Bosmer racials.

Can you think of more ways to open up stealth?

BlueRaven

I posted my idea a while ago in another thread;

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5850003#Comment_5850003

“OK this is what I was thinking what a "Sneak" tree would look like.

The skill line would appear under the "World" tab and would have 20 levels. It would be open to all (similar to ledgerman), but I can see a quest chain or daily in Elsweyr (or someplace) that directly helps leveling it.

There would be three ways to level it.

1) Attacking PvE enemies from stealth. This would be the slowest way of leveling the skill but is open to all regardless of what DLCs or Chapters they own. Each attack, even if it does not result in a kill, originating from stealth would level up the skill line. There would be a 20-30 sec cool down on the experience gained so players would avoid going into stealth, kill a mud crab, go back into stealth, kill a mud crab, type of grinding.

2) Attacking players enemies from stealth. Similar to attacking PvE enemies, with a similar cool down, so it is not spamable. The only change is that attacking another player from stealth delivers 4-5 times the experience of attacking a PvE target. The reason why is because there is less available opportunities to go back into stealth in large battles.

3) Quests and dailies in Elsweyr(?) This would be the most efficient way to get a head start in the tree. But can be avoided if the player is not interested in questing. A parallel might be the mage and fighters guild skill trees where lore books and killing certain mobs level the skill lines without having to do the quests, but the quests help a lot.

The skill trees;

None of the skills listed are stackable with racials or armor sets. In areas when an armor set or racial grants a higher bonus, then the higher bonus number will be used.
Everything below requires a skill point to rank up, but any skills can be skipped if the player is not interested in investing any points into it. (Again similar to ledgerman.)

Improved stealth (4 ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (2, 7, 12, 16). Each rank adds a stealth detection radius reduction of 1m, with a maximum of 4m. (Note: This is basically the kahjit stealth racial with an additional 1m added on at the end.)

Stealth Detection (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (3, 8, 13, 17). Increases a stealth detection radius by 1m, with a maximum of 4m. (Note: Why is this here? As a character learns the tricks of being stealthy, they also learn the ways to catch others who are being stealthy. This is basically the bosmer detect stealth ability with 1 m added on the end.)

Stealth Cost Reduction (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (4, 9, 14, 18). Reduces the stamina cost of stealth by 2.5% per rank, maximum of a 10% reduction.

Stealth Speed (4 Ranks): Rank ups available at Sneak levels (5, 10, 15, 19). Each rank increases the stealth speed by (X)/4 % with a maximum value of X%. (Note: I am not sure what a good maximum value would be for this. Should they be able to move as fast as vampires in stealth? Nearly as fast? Half as fast? I am not sure. When a final speed is figured out just put the value in for "X".)

Active skill:

Cloud of Dust: (Available at rank 20) At the cost of magicka, create a cloud of dust effecting all hostile enemies with 2m. This dust interrupts all spell casting for 2 seconds. Hostile enemies are put into a daze for 1 second. Also the caster is immediately thrown back into stealth. The caster is not immune to stealth breaking effects.

Morphs:

Bag of Dust: Increases area of effect to 3m from caster. Interrupt is now 3 secs. And daze is 2 secs.

Blind: Single target. Target is interrupted in spell casting for 5 secs. And put into a daze for 4 secs. The caster is NOT put back into stealth.

•••

Probably unbalanced and OP but this is what was in my head.”

•••

Probably not the best idea, but at least it’s something.

Sylvermynx

That's some really great stuff there Blue!

Ratzkifal

@BlueRaven Not a bad start. I do like the thought of a smoke grenade skill.

My take on it would look more like this:

Smoke bomb - Throws a smoke bomb on the ground briefly turning the caster invisible and reducing the detection radius of enemies in the area to 0m for X seconds.

Morph
1. Smoke Screen - Throws a smoke bomb from a distance at a target location, reducing the detection radius of enemies caught in the area to 0m for X seconds. This skill does not break stealth.
2. Illusionary Smoke bomb - Briefly turns the caster invisible and leaves a cloud of smoke behind which reduces the detection radius of enemies in the area to 0m for X seconds and slows them by Y%.

I was thinking that one morph would be great for escape and the other good as a distraction/preparation. They wouldn't be useless in PvP either, yet not be too beneficial to change the meta. I think the base skill and Morph 1 should cost stamina as that would keep the skill from being easy mode. You expend the resource you are sneaking with to prepare your attack/theft. If you want to use it, then you have to be sure that you'll make it. Morph 2 should cost magicka to give magicka characters better tools to escape into stealth but not use up their entire pool in the process. The short invisibility prevents incoming damage allowing you to fully enter stealth while the enemies' detection is down.

I feel it's unlikely to get implemented though. Invisibility is a Nightblade thing and I don't think ZOS would make the one thing that makes Nightblades unique accessable to all.

The rest of the skill line is alright, although I don't think adding detection is a good choice. Everyone hates sneaking characters in PvP so that passive would become mandatory. It would be a different thing if it was a trade-off and you could only have detection OR sneaking.
That these passives don't stack with racials also removes the uniqueness of Khajiit and Bosmer even further. Imagine how Highelfs would feel if there was a new skill line coming out and one passive read "Gain 258 spell damage but not when you are Altmer or Dunmer". They'd get a useless passive because the other races get theirs for free + extra. That's essentially what this is. If we'd implement this, then Khajiit and Bosmer need new passive components or they would fall off even more.

BlueRaven

@Ratzkifal I like your ideas of the smoke bombs! I am not sure how that would look like in Cyrodiil or an arena, but I like the concept a lot!

I did not want the bonuses to stack because as we saw on the PTS the a stealth range of 5m essentially becomes invisible to guards. So a 7m one would be ridiculous. I think 5m is the absolute maximum it should go.

I chose 4m as it is "one" better then the base 3m the races get. So it would be worth it for someone to want to put points into the passive as it will eventually get one better than their races passive.

I put the stealth detect in there as a direct nod to players in PvP. If a player does not PvP or is not interested in the skill then there will be no need for them to put points into it.
If they do PvP and want to put points into it, well they will have to do the work, and I could not think of a different mechanism that could be used to level the ability for someone who stays in cyrodil all the time.
Also, I put it rather early in the tree to lessen the burden of PvP players to actually level the skill.

I know what you mean for uniqueness of the skill for the races, but I can't stop myself to thinking back to Skyrim where any race can become equally as stealthy if they put the work into it. And I think it gives a nod to player fantasy (RPer's). "For a time I lived with the Bosmer's of Malabal Tor, and they taught me the ways of stealth." It's a fun fantasy trope in my opinion, so why not embrace it?
In my head I though of the Kahjit (and what should also be the Bosmer stealth passive) as a kind of head start of the ways of stealth. Kind of like in Skyrim where they started with a head start, but all races could catch up if they wished.
So I think this is where you and I differ in opinion, but is an important question to ask. Should Kahjits, (and bosmer's) ALWAYS be stealthier than any other race if they have the same armor etc? Or is it ok that they eventually be the same if they both put work into it. Are kahjits and bosmers always going to be more stealthier than someone from the Morag Tong for example?

One last thought, imagine that this tree goes live and the passive to kahjits and bosmers gets changed from the stealth detect(ion) skills they currently have to a +20% bonus to this skill tree (or something like that). Would that be acceptable?

•••

Basically I came up with the tree as a thought exercise while commuting a while back. I know it needs changes, but I thought it would be a bit of a starting off point at least.

Tigerseye

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Yeah, this is the point.

I love rolling around.

So, I'm happy that dodge roll now adds a little extra speed, even when I don't have bow equipped; even if it isn't very much.

The issue is not them making rolling better (which I view as a good thing) - it is them tying rolling to extra penetration, or in fact tying extra damage to rolling, at all.

If damage has to be tied to dodge roll for some unknown reason (when other races just have it passively), it would at least be far better to tie a damage stat, without a hard cap, to it.

Ratzkifal

If they do get a headstart then it would be better for the lore aspect of things. What I just don't like is that one race gets more options to spend skills for improvements than others. Redundancy is bad. If they don't stack, then races access to less redundant passives are stronger.
In the earlier example with the 258 spell damage, nobody would pick Altmer anymore and everyone would go with Breton, because Altmer doesn't add anything beyond that spell damage which Bretons have in addition to 7% reduction. You could have the same "they learned magic from the Altmer" vibe there, but then one race would be objectively worse than the rest.

It works for the single player games, because the only character that matters there is you. In an MMO you always have to look at what the others are doing. If 5m is too much and we want to avoid redundancy, then the radius reduction is just not possible as a passive. Your passive line could still work if we went back to the racials and changed them to be more compatible while opening up the mandatory radius reduction to everyone. But since this whole skill line seems to only be in the discussion to avoid having to revisit the racials, I don't think that is an option.

Sylvermynx

I think it's pretty discouraging that no one from ZOS is addressing any of this. I wonder if they're even reading any of it.

MartiniDaniels

Tigerseye wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

In PVE group dps role hunter's eye is useless other then in moments when you roll-dodge due to mechanics. But same may be said for orcs health proc and sprint speed, dunmers off-resource bonus, khajiit health/off-resource recovery etc.
In PVP and PVE solo, even on magicka character you roll-dodge a lot, because you can't face tank everything with shield anymore and those 5-6 seconds after roll-dodge are decisive in most of the cases. Of course somebody may build for one-way burst, i.e maximum damage with only small recovery, but those are gank builds which are in huge disadvantage in case burst failed. That's why I pointed "balanced" PVP builds. While orc or dunmer should use sustain set or mundus, bosmer can use more damage oriented set to compensate for lack of weapon damage. And even here there are small nuances.. for example bone's pirate provides amazing bonus to recovery, but it can't be used with best food since Artaeum takeaway is food and not drink..
And if we look at what devs are doing, i.e. over-stacked shields nerfed, passive dodge removed, permablocking is in-effective if it is not tank's block during healer's check etc.. they want roll-dodge to be essential and unavoidable part of combat, like it is in many action-RPG games. And when roll-dodge is unavoidable, bosmer will always be in advantage.

The problem is that, unlike every other racial passive, Hunter's Eye can be made obsolete. With a little bit of thought, you can have enough penetration that Hunter's Eye isn't helping (in PvE). If you have 9,000 pen between base and any buffs/debuffs you can apply, then Hunters' Eye won't help in any solo gameplay because all normal content caps at 9,100 resistance.

And nobody in their right mind is going to try to cap their penetration at 7,600 with the intent of using HE to cover the distance. So you're left with either having too much penetration sometimes or too little others. So Bosmer are either losing DPS by having too little penetration or losing their passive by having too much.

Veteran is a little different since getting max penetration is harder, but you also have your party to help with more buffs/debuffs.

Yeah, this is the point.

I love rolling around.

So, I'm happy that dodge roll now adds a little extra speed, even when I don't have bow equipped; even if it isn't very much.

The issue is not them making rolling better (which I view as a good thing) - it is them tying rolling to extra penetration, or in fact tying extra damage to rolling, at all.

If damage has to be tied to dodge roll for some unknown reason (when other races just have it passively), it would at least be far better to tie a damage stat, without a hard cap, to it.

Yep, 150 WD on roll-dodge will do. Also it will boost vigor a little so as small as it there will be also defensive benefit to this. Penetration is probably worst combat stat possible to be activated on roll-dodge.

wedgebert

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Well said. I just hope some people at ZOS actually realize that at some point.

BlueRaven

Yeah, I am ready for this to come at a conclusion myself. The PTS is on the 15th correct?
Please, please, please, let there be some light for the end of this tunnel. I hope the phase two of whatever overhaul they are planning is finally revealed.

Sylvermynx

wedgebert wrote: »

I wish were weren't reduced to talking about how to make the dodge roll portion of Hunter's Eye less terrible. Every single thing about that passive makes no sense, especially for Bosmer.

While, yes, I would be completely happy and stop talking about it if they kept the dodge roll part and just gave stealth back, I don't want to give them ideas on how to fix the dodge roll while not returning stealth.

They need to go back and figure out what makes a Bosmer a Bosmer (hint, it's stealth with some skill at bows) and build the passive around that.

Yeah. ZOS needs to start hearing. Or maybe they should buy hearing aids.

[Edit for stupid fumble-fingered typo.]

Uryel

Seraphayel wrote: »

Bosmer losing stealth can easily be adjusted by changing equipment and adapting. That's it. The racial change might be questionable from a lore standpoint but in the end it's totally negligible.

You again, hey ? I suppose you never bothered actually reading the answers I gave you in other threads.

NO, it can't be easily adjusted. Not at all.

Either you slap on some + stealth gear, and then get +4m to your radius, but lose all mobility bonus, or you are limited to +2 and can indeed have no penalty.

The workaround would be to become a vampire, but that doesn't provide many benefits for a stamina character (and many stealthy characters aren't magicka based), and also induces a major weakness to fire. Also, not everyone enjoys looking like they fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down.

Another option is to be a magicka based nightblade, but not every stealthy character is a nightblade, and for the mobility bonus you get from that ONE nightblade skill, you have to resort to use +stealth equipment that will work best for stamina characters, effectively gimping you combat-wise.

There is absolutely no way to get back to both +5m stealth bonus and no mobility impairement. The best that can be achieved is +4m and stage 4 vampire to remove the penalty. Previously, the absolute maximum would have been +7m bonus and no stealth penalty if you were a vampire. If you're not a vampire, you have to either go for a +4m and a penalty, or +2m and free movement.

So, it's not even that it's not "easily adjusted" as you suggest, it's that it's not even possible at all. Not with the current state of the game and the gear available.

And don't even start me on the lore side. Lore-wise, this change is an abomination.

[Edited for spelling]

Ratzkifal

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

A_Silverius

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

Yeah but its easier to just pull all the mobs at Hadran's Caravan in Reapers March and murder them with aoe because theres no guards in that place. Oh well

anadandy

A_Silverius wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

Yeah but its easier to just pull all the mobs at Hadran's Caravan in Reapers March and murder them with aoe because theres no guards in that place. Oh well

*quietly takes notes*

Jaraal

anadandy wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

Yeah but its easier to just pull all the mobs at Hadran's Caravan in Reapers March and murder them with aoe because theres no guards in that place. Oh well

*quietly takes notes*

Try the At-Tura Estate in Stormhaven first. Same thing, but on a slightly smaller and easier scale.

Only problem with mass murdering with aoes is that you need to be strong (and/or skilled) enough to take hits and nukes from 10-20 mobs at once. And be prepared to have hundreds of thousands in bounty in just minutes.

IwakuraLain42

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

Yeah but its easier to just pull all the mobs at Hadran's Caravan in Reapers March and murder them with aoe because theres no guards in that place. Oh well

*quietly takes notes*

Try the At-Tura Estate in Stormhaven first. Same thing, but on a slightly smaller and easier scale.

Only problem with mass murdering with aoes is that you need to be strong (and/or skilled) enough to take hits and nukes from 10-20 mobs at once. And be prepared to have hundreds of thousands in bounty in just minutes.

Entering the estate requires progress in the Stormhaven quest line, Haddocks Caravan in Reapers March doesn’t. It’s a favorite gold makeing spot using alt‘s for a reason ...

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

So apparently even this silver lining is nerfed.

RIP Bosmer.

Again.

Jaraal

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

Yeah but its easier to just pull all the mobs at Hadran's Caravan in Reapers March and murder them with aoe because theres no guards in that place. Oh well

*quietly takes notes*

Try the At-Tura Estate in Stormhaven first. Same thing, but on a slightly smaller and easier scale.

Only problem with mass murdering with aoes is that you need to be strong (and/or skilled) enough to take hits and nukes from 10-20 mobs at once. And be prepared to have hundreds of thousands in bounty in just minutes.

Entering the estate requires progress in the Stormhaven quest line, Haddocks Caravan in Reapers March doesn’t. It’s a favorite gold makeing spot using alt‘s for a reason ...

This statement is partially true. You can climb the rocks to the right of the gate, mount your horse, and ride/jump over the wall into the estate grounds.

anadandy

It's delve daily week for the Anniversary Jubilee!!

And once again, I am reminded how much better my Bosmer used to slip through those delves straight to the boss - no fuss no muss. Now it's grab the attention of every trash NPC...