Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

CassandraGemini

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I'm pretty sure they already know it's not useful, or at least I would assume that they know how their own game works. The question that remains is more like: Will they go to the trouble of implementing some quests or other mechanics with Elsweyr that somehow put the stealth detection to use, just so they're able to say: "There you have it! It's useful!". Or will they just leave it as it is now with the reasoning "Well, it's different from Khajiit now, and it's unique! What more do you want?", without caring that it doesn't really have any use at all and is basically just a slap in the face to everyone who wanted their Bosmers to be stealthy.

Jaraal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I honestly don't ever recall them saying they would make stealth detection useful for the majority of players. The new racial passives seem to have been created with PvP in mind, and PvE players are just left to make do with whatever they can make of them. Much like the recent nerfing of player speed, which they stated would allow players with targeting issues to be better able to do damage to mobile players. They didn't consider the effect on PvE players who needed speed to harvest materials or travel between quest locations efficiently, get through dungeons in a reasonable time frame..... or like with the Major Expedition upon killing a hostile NPC armor sets....... they made it so the speed bonus would be gone by the time a werewolf (who doesn't have access to his Rapid Maneuver skill while in form) got finished devouring their kill and made them useless for that playstyle.

I've done enough PvP to unlock certain skills that are beneficial to me in my preferred environment of PvE. So I understand where they're coming from with these changes, I just don't get why they think everybody should be forced to like killing other players. Or why they have never made any PvE improvements that were actually detrimental to PvP play. You would think they would be most interested in pleasing the largest percentage of their player base (non-PvPers), but it never seems to work out that way. It's like they feel the deathmatch aspect of the game is most important, and everything else is just filler.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

Right now Bosmer are average archers, which I think is bearable as it allows for more build diversity, and bad at stealth (seeing how only Khajiit can be considered good). As long as the core themes aren't in order, we shouldn't consider expanding to new themes as that would fundamentally change their identity as a race.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

Sylvermynx

I wonder if the problem lies in perhaps the pvp population diminishing? Sure we hear about how awful the lag is in Cyrodiil - but we don't really have any idea how many people actually spend nearly all of their time IN pvp. Or at least - I don't.... Sorry. Shouldn't pretend I'm replying for everyone!

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

And consider what would happen if they actually implemented something like this? Can you imagine how many threads would be started about "How come Bosmer gets special quests and we don't, where's MY racial only quests, no fair, nerf Bosmer", etc, etc.

And if that becomes part of some hinted at stealth (detection?) tree that is open to everybody, then Bosmer still loses out, is still tied for worst stealthy race, still has lost decades of established lore, and so forth.

Stealth detection is just a lose/lose situation all around.

Red_Feather

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

And consider what would happen if they actually implemented something like this? Can you imagine how many threads would be started about "How come Bosmer gets special quests and we don't, where's MY racial only quests, no fair, nerf Bosmer", etc, etc.

And if that becomes part of some hinted at stealth (detection?) tree that is open to everybody, then Bosmer still loses out, is still tied for worst stealthy race, still has lost decades of established lore, and so forth.

Stealth detection is just a lose/lose situation all around.

Obviously that wouldn't be exclusive Bosmer content, but Bosmer would be better at these quests than others.

And the skill line... well that wouldn't fix anything for the Bosmer really. Unless it has ties to races and if it has ties to race it can only go two ways. Either it's tied so it doesn't stack with racials (putting Bosmer at a disadvantage) or it's tied so that Bosmer get a headstart, which is still suboptimal.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

@Red_Feather Oh believe me, it's not useful in PvP. At least not to the point that it matters, but I don't think it's supposed to be anyway. ZOS stated that they wanted a sense of progression in the racials and make them increasingly more powerful, so obviously their first passive has low impact. The detection doesn't help you see a cloaked NB faster because you are in their range before they get revealed, it's a bit counterintuitive as they aren't actually pulled out of invisibility, and while sneaking enemies do get revealed sooner, they also get alerted of your presence before you are of theirs, paradoxically putting the sneaking enemy at an advantage, that is assuming the players don't move randomly.

Jaraal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's actually not.


When you are hidden, your detection "eye" is closed. When a player or NPC comes in range, but still don't see you, the eye is partially open. When you are discovered, the eye opens fully.

Now, imagine that you are hidden in PvP, and a Nord enemy player is approaching. When he gets within range, say for the sake of discussion, 3 meters...... your eye opens partially and you know someone is near. You are aware of the Nord's presence, whether he actually sees you or not.

Now, let's consider what happens if the player is a Bosmer. He/she will detect you (with the new Hunter's Eye passive) hiding from 3 meters further out, whether he actually "sees" you or not. But what effect does it have on you? Yep, you guessed it. Your "eye" will open while the Bosmer is 3 meters further away from when you knew the Nord was near. So basically, Hunter's Eye has the unique 'benefit' of alerting you twice as early when a Bosmer player is near.

So, is that useful in PvP? I don't see how it is.

Deathlord92

I wish we could pick racial passives or morph em my Breton an assassin and always will be Breton for life

Red_Feather

Jaraal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's actually not.


When you are hidden, your detection "eye" is closed. When a player or NPC comes in range, but still don't see you, the eye is partially open. When you are discovered, the eye opens fully.

Now, imagine that you are hidden in PvP, and a Nord enemy player is approaching. When he gets within range, say for the sake of discussion, 3 meters...... your eye opens partially and you know someone is near. You are aware of the Nord's presence, whether he actually sees you or not.

Now, let's consider what happens if the player is a Bosmer. He/she will detect you (with the new Hunter's Eye passive) hiding from 3 meters further out, whether he actually "sees" you or not. But what effect does it have on you? Yep, you guessed it. Your "eye" will open while the Bosmer is 3 meters further away from when you knew the Nord was near. So basically, Hunter's Eye has the unique 'benefit' of alerting you twice as early when a Bosmer player is near.

So, is that useful in PvP? I don't see how it is.

When you explain it that sounds like negative racial passive! That's awful and I might take my point out of it.

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@Red_Feather Oh believe me, it's not useful in PvP. At least not to the point that it matters, but I don't think it's supposed to be anyway. ZOS stated that they wanted a sense of progression in the racials and make them increasingly more powerful, so obviously their first passive has low impact. The detection doesn't help you see a cloaked NB faster because you are in their range before they get revealed, it's a bit counterintuitive as they aren't actually pulled out of invisibility, and while sneaking enemies do get revealed sooner, they also get alerted of your presence before you are of theirs, paradoxically putting the sneaking enemy at an advantage, that is assuming the players don't move randomly.

They have said they wanted a feeling of progression for passives, but it sure didn't turn out that way. Five of the ten races have +Max Resource as their first passive.

Nords get +1000 health, + cold resistance, + immune to chilled as their first passive. Our third (and should be strongest?) passive is +2000 stam, + poison resist, +immune to poison. Granted our is better for DPS, but Nords start off strong and stay strong.

Dunmer likewise start off with a strong +max to stam and magicka. I'd say their second passive, +flame resist, is the weakest of the bunch.

Red_Feather

I am new to wood elf and have the luxury of rerolling. What race should I pick for stamina templar?
edit: I think Orc would be best for PvP. Sorry for posting here. I am detracting.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

I am new to wood elf and have the luxury of rerolling. What race should I pick for stamina templar?
edit: I think Orc would be best for PvP. Sorry for posting here. I am detracting.

@Red_Feather Stamina and in doubt? Go Orc! You can never go wrong with Orc because they are pretty much the best at everything stamina closely followed by Dunmer who have the luxury of also being able to go magicka and excel at it.
Khajiit are also good for stamina or magicka but Dunmer are better and Orc are better than them if you are certain you'll go stamina and not switch later.
Behind Khajiit, Redguard and Bosmer are equal, with Bosmer pulling ahead as dps outside lab conditions and Redguard pulling ahead as tanks.

It should be noted that any races works for any content and spec. However some choices will make your life more convenient, like Bosmer did for thieves before they lost their 3m being-detected radius reduction. Now Bosmer have the easiest stamina sustain and if you are usually struggling to manage your resources, you'll end up being a better damage dealer on a sustain race than on a "power race". (Can't deal damage if you are constantly out of stamina after all)

Cundu_Ertur

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's not, really. 3m is too small of a detection boost: potions, abilities, and spells are still the way to go for detection. The PVP'ers seem to like the roll dodge thing, for whatever reason. But not even the most vociferous defender of the roll-dodge bonus could come up with a situation where they ever had a use for the detection bit.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's not, really. 3m is too small of a detection boost: potions, abilities, and spells are still the way to go for detection. The PVP'ers seem to like the roll dodge thing, for whatever reason. But not even the most vociferous defender of the roll-dodge bonus could come up with a situation where they ever had a use for the detection bit.

I actually didn't test if the 3m stack with the 20m of a detection potion or if they extend your truesight or not. That could be an interesting test.
Despite being a 32% area increase (which only matters when you assume random motion), I doubt it really affects the outcome as the relative speeds and distance between the players is way more important. There are no 23m choke points. If 23m is enough then so will 20m and if it's not, then there was no guarantee for you to find your enemy anyway as that would mean you are in an open field.
On the other end 3m reduction can make or break chokepoints pretty much anywhere as it allows you to hide in corners or at walls when your enemy is in the middle of the room.

Cundu_Ertur

Except they'll be warned you're there before you know they are there. Wasn't that you, or was it wedgebert who found that out?

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Except they'll be warned you're there before you know they are there. Wasn't that you, or was it wedgebert who found that out?

I've brought it up a few times, but I'm not the one who initially discovered it. It's been mentioned in other places and I just wanted it in the context of this thread.

Ratzkifal

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

MartiniDaniels

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

I'm betting my 12 hardly earned Artaeum Takeaway Broth that there will be a lot of things broken and hilarious outrage everywhere!

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Pts will be up in the afternoon sometime in the US so in the evening in Europe. I really hope there is something about stealth in it. Even just a hint would be nice.

JadeCoin

The other day my boyfriend's Khajiiti main was stopped for his bounty by a Bosmer guard. I wish I had a screenshot of the dialog to post here, but it's more involved to upload that from an Xbox.

The Bosmer guard basically said: "Didn't see me there, did you? Happens all the time."

Apparently even when they are guards, Wood Elves rely less on detection than stealth to catch criminals. They can sneak up on you and, more to the point, they're short!

The irony of this encounter was certainly not lost on my poor Bosmer thief.

max_only

JadeCoin wrote: »

The other day my boyfriend's Khajiiti main was stopped for his bounty by a Bosmer guard. I wish I had a screenshot of the dialog to post here, but it's more involved to upload that from an Xbox.

The Bosmer guard basically said: "Didn't see me there, did you? Happens all the time."

Apparently even when they are guards, Wood Elves rely less on detection than stealth to catch criminals. They can sneak up on you and, more to the point, they're short!

The irony of this encounter was certainly not lost on my poor Bosmer thief.

That’s poetic!

billp_ESO

I will go out on a limb here, and say that when they introduce the new "tree", or whatever it is to counteract gutting the Bosmer, it will be behind a paywall.

Probably in a new DLC, costing money.

wedgebert

billp_ESO wrote: »

I will go out on a limb here, and say that when they introduce the new "tree", or whatever it is to counteract gutting the Bosmer, it will be behind a paywall.

Probably in a new DLC, costing money.

And still won't counteract the loss of Bosmers' racial identity because it will be available to everyone. Bosmer will continue to not exist in this game, instead we'll just keep being Altmer who were cast out for not having magic.

StormeReigns

If no stealth return, let my bosmer climb 8-10 meter walls / trees. An perch above the rest to rain arrows down

BlueRaven

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Nope. Nothing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599/pts-patch-notes-v5-0-0#latest

Stealth is mentioned once;

"You can currently crouch with Volendrung equipped, which is not intended. This will be resolved in a future PTS patch as you should not be able to crouch/stealth while carrying an Artifact."

Bosmer is not mentioned, nor wood elf.

Seriously, wtf? Just say something Zos, anything.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day, right? Tomorrow we'll get PTS. 2/10 chance we get something related to stealth changed. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen!

I'm betting 40 Green-Pact-friendly Camoran Throne beverages (on PC EU) that we won't get something fixed.

Nope. Nothing.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468599/pts-patch-notes-v5-0-0#latest

Stealth is mentioned once;

"You can currently crouch with Volendrung equipped, which is not intended. This will be resolved in a future PTS patch as you should not be able to crouch/stealth while carrying an Artifact."

Bosmer is not mentioned, nor wood elf.

Seriously, wtf? Just say something Zos, anything.

Means nobody can detect a stealthed player with an artifact.....








.....not even Bosmer.

Koronach

Paying attention to lore and preserving established lore actually means break it, remain silent, and sweep it under the rug. Now they just hope newer players don't notice the lore fails and question them.

BlueRaven

A few weeks ago there was a reddit post that claimed they were going to interview a developer. And they were asking for questions. Remember that? Did anything come of it?

I thought there was a link somewhere in this thread and I cannot find it.