Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Jaraal

anadandy wrote: »

It's delve daily week for the Anniversary Jubilee!!

And once again, I am reminded how much better my Bosmer used to slip through those delves straight to the boss - no fuss no muss. Now it's grab the attention of every trash NPC...

If you made it through the 30 second queue that's actually 45 minutes and didn't get disconnected, that is.

Maybe they can include a stealth detection workshop in the queue loading screens, so people can learn how to use their new passive throughout Tamriel. Maybe there's hidden stuff out there to find, and we just aren't looking for it in the right way.

Ratzkifal

There will be ESO live again today/tomorrow (depending where you live) but as usual we can't expect to learn anything about Bosmer stealth from that.

Whatever happened to that "improved communication"?

Tigerseye

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

I'd rather keep the 100K.

Ratzkifal

Tigerseye wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I just realized that there is one positive thing to getting our stealth removed! We can accumulate higher bounties more quickly for the 100k bounty paid achievement!

I'd rather keep the 100K.

It has a cool pile of coins as achievement furniture though. I covered the floor in my treasure vault with those and it looks fantastic!

anadandy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

There will be ESO live again today/tomorrow (depending where you live) but as usual we can't expect to learn anything about Bosmer stealth from that.

Whatever happened to that "improved communication"?

Yeah, the ESO live is going to be talking about game art (which I admit is kind of cool,I feel like the art designers don't get to shine enough) and the new ESO Logging tool they slipped in under the radar (because combat is king!). I don't expect anything else, except for this thread to grow longer and continue to be ignored.

Uryel

anadandy wrote: »

I don't expect anything else, except for this thread to grow longer and continue to be ignored.

Well then, let's make it grow longer, and let us be ignored some more. I mean, it's probably a lost cause, but still a worthy one.

I kept all my previous stealth gear in a chest, in my house, just in case some day, at some point, ZOS ears reason and reverts to something sensible. I suppose I can keep coming here once in a while and post to keep that thread alive, just to remind them that there are still people out there who demand their stealth back, who frown on the hidious crime of making Bosmers better at being guards than thieves, and who still refuse to buy any more crowns or ESO+ subs until there is an actual solution to that.

Ratzkifal

Uryel wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

I don't expect anything else, except for this thread to grow longer and continue to be ignored.

Well then, let's make it grow longer, and let us be ignored some more. I mean, it's probably a lost cause, but still a worthy one.

I kept all my previous stealth gear in a chest, in my house, just in case some day, at some point, ZOS ears reason and reverts to something sensible. I suppose I can keep coming here once in a while and post to keep that thread alive, just to remind them that there are still people out there who demand their stealth back, who frown on the hidious crime of making Bosmers better at being guards than thieves, and who still refuse to buy any more crowns or ESO+ subs until there is an actual solution to that.

This event is rough on my inventory management but so far I'm holding up and I probably will continue doing so. Just not sure if I can keep myself from buying Elsweyr. I was looking forward to playing as a Necromancer for a long time now. The lack of class change tokens makes it a bit easier so I guess PTS will decided it in the end. Let's hope nobody else will have to endure what Bosmer continue to endure.

CassandraGemini

Uryel wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

I don't expect anything else, except for this thread to grow longer and continue to be ignored.

Well then, let's make it grow longer, and let us be ignored some more. I mean, it's probably a lost cause, but still a worthy one.

I kept all my previous stealth gear in a chest, in my house, just in case some day, at some point, ZOS ears reason and reverts to something sensible. I suppose I can keep coming here once in a while and post to keep that thread alive, just to remind them that there are still people out there who demand their stealth back, who frown on the hidious crime of making Bosmers better at being guards than thieves, and who still refuse to buy any more crowns or ESO+ subs until there is an actual solution to that.

I'd be careful using the word "demand" in this context. We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!". Let's just be on the safe side here and stick to the rules like there's no tomorrow, we don't want to give them any excuse to get rid of us.

Cundu_Ertur

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

I don't expect anything else, except for this thread to grow longer and continue to be ignored.

Well then, let's make it grow longer, and let us be ignored some more. I mean, it's probably a lost cause, but still a worthy one.

I kept all my previous stealth gear in a chest, in my house, just in case some day, at some point, ZOS ears reason and reverts to something sensible. I suppose I can keep coming here once in a while and post to keep that thread alive, just to remind them that there are still people out there who demand their stealth back, who frown on the hidious crime of making Bosmers better at being guards than thieves, and who still refuse to buy any more crowns or ESO+ subs until there is an actual solution to that.

I'd be careful using the word "demand" in this context. We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!". Let's just be on the safe side here and stick to the rules like there's no tomorrow, we don't want to give them any excuse to get rid of us.

Unless they ban me from the forums, there will always be a thread like this.


Crap, I shouldn't have given them any ideas...

Jaraal

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

CassandraGemini

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

You do realize that it explicitly states in the forum rules that we're not allowed to reopen a thread with the same topic, when it has already been closed, right? Just saying, I'd be careful, I bet none of us want this thread to be closed for good, since we all care about the topic very much, so... yeah, let's just play by the rules here so that doesn't happen, no matter how dumb some of them may be.

luizpaulom17

My god, I cant belive U people are still here... How can the moderators aloud this topic to still be open?? Please, close this! It has no point to keep a topic for so long with the same group of players sending message everyday, with the only proporse to keep it up... Im tired tof seeing this always on the top, this is bumping!

CassandraGemini

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

My god, I cant belive U people are still here... How can the moderators aloud this topic to still be open?? Please, close this! It has no point to keep a topic for so long with the same group of players sending message everyday, with the only proporse to keep it up... Im tired tof seeing this always on the top, this is bumping!

No, it's not. There are people here, discussing a topic they're very passionate about. And not always the same people either, I, for one, only jumped into the fray a few pages ago when this thing was already over 50 pages long. And I really can't see anyone writing pointless stuff here just for the sake of keeping the thread going, so it's obviously not bumping. If you don't care about it or don't agree with us, that's fine, just ignore us then, how about it?

Jaraal

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

You do realize that it explicitly states in the forum rules that we're not allowed to reopen a thread with the same topic, when it has already been closed, right? Just saying, I'd be careful, I bet none of us want this thread to be closed for good, since we all care about the topic very much, so... yeah, let's just play by the rules here so that doesn't happen, no matter how dumb some of them may be.

So you're saying if they close a thread that says "Snipe is overpowered!" or "Nerf sorc shields!", and then somebody posts that topic later, they can be banned? Sounds pretty heavy handed and unreasonable to me. I think they probably prefer the discussion to be contained in one or two visible threads than having everybody who logs in after a two or three month hiatus posting "What happened to my stealth!"

And thanks to the naysayers for helping us keep this fine thread alive! We do apologize for ruining your forum experience, that is not our intention.

CassandraGemini

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

You do realize that it explicitly states in the forum rules that we're not allowed to reopen a thread with the same topic, when it has already been closed, right? Just saying, I'd be careful, I bet none of us want this thread to be closed for good, since we all care about the topic very much, so... yeah, let's just play by the rules here so that doesn't happen, no matter how dumb some of them may be.

So you're saying if they close a thread that says "Snipe is overpowered!" or "Nerf sorc shields!", and then somebody posts that topic later, they can be banned? Sounds pretty heavy handed and unreasonable to me.

Wait a sec, I just found the respective part of the community rules that I meant:

Deliberately Disobeying a ZeniMax Online Employee: Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time. As an example, if we close a thread you created and leave an explanation stating why it was closed, you may not re-create the thread.

BlueRaven

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

My god, I cant belive U people are still here... How can the moderators aloud this topic to still be open?? Please, close this! It has no point to keep a topic for so long with the same group of players sending message everyday, with the only proporse to keep it up... Im tired tof seeing this always on the top, this is bumping!

I apologize that our discussion about gameplay elements in ESO is such a burden for you.

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Wait a sec, I just found the respective part of the community rules that I meant:

Deliberately Disobeying a ZeniMax Online Employee: Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time. As an example, if we close a thread you created and leave an explanation stating why it was closed, you may not re-create the thread.

Oh! That is interesting.

Jaraal

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

You do realize that it explicitly states in the forum rules that we're not allowed to reopen a thread with the same topic, when it has already been closed, right? Just saying, I'd be careful, I bet none of us want this thread to be closed for good, since we all care about the topic very much, so... yeah, let's just play by the rules here so that doesn't happen, no matter how dumb some of them may be.

So you're saying if they close a thread that says "Snipe is overpowered!" or "Nerf sorc shields!", and then somebody posts that topic later, they can be banned? Sounds pretty heavy handed and unreasonable to me.

Wait a sec, I just found the respective part of the community rules that I meant:

Deliberately Disobeying a ZeniMax Online Employee: Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time. As an example, if we close a thread you created and leave an explanation stating why it was closed, you may not re-create the thread.

So if they close this thread and say why, then max_only can't make another. Sounds reasonable, I'm not saying he should be allowed to if it's against forum rules.

None of us have rights here, this is a privately owned forum. They will do what they feel is best. I think the moderation here is quite unobtrusive, compared to many forums I've been a part of.

CassandraGemini

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

We all know ZoS doesn't like that at all, and I bet they're only waiting for some bad reason or another to close this thread and go: "Phew, finally done with that!".

Only when they pry that "New Discussion" button from our cold, dead fingers!

You do realize that it explicitly states in the forum rules that we're not allowed to reopen a thread with the same topic, when it has already been closed, right? Just saying, I'd be careful, I bet none of us want this thread to be closed for good, since we all care about the topic very much, so... yeah, let's just play by the rules here so that doesn't happen, no matter how dumb some of them may be.

So you're saying if they close a thread that says "Snipe is overpowered!" or "Nerf sorc shields!", and then somebody posts that topic later, they can be banned? Sounds pretty heavy handed and unreasonable to me.

Wait a sec, I just found the respective part of the community rules that I meant:

Deliberately Disobeying a ZeniMax Online Employee: Deliberately disobeying a request or action by a member of the ZeniMax Online Studios/ESO Team is not permitted at any time. As an example, if we close a thread you created and leave an explanation stating why it was closed, you may not re-create the thread.

So if they close this thread and say why, then max_only can't make another. Sounds reasonable, I'm not saying he should be allowed to if it's against forum rules.

None of us have rights here, this is a privately owned forum. They will do what they feel is best. I think the moderation here is quite unobtrusive, compared to many forums I've been a part of.

Yeah, sure, you're right about that. All I'm saying is, since we are the ones who want something, it would be in our own best interest to stick to the rules here. But, you know, I get a feeling that we shouldn't start a discussion about the forum rules here, since that might count as "derailing", so... let's leave it at that and start talking about Bosmer again.

Ratzkifal

Speaking of which, next ESO live will be about Necromancers so again nothing for Bosmer stealth to be discussed at.
Two more days until PTS starts. I think all sets have been revealed already, so that only leaves changes to stealth mechanics and specific quests that make detection useful (which nobody even wants, because it is not an appropriate bonus and doesn't create more variety).

alanmatillab16_ESO

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Unless they ban me from the forums, there will always be a thread like this.


Crap, I shouldn't have given them any ideas...

Have no fear there will *always* be a thread like this...

Red_Feather

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

CassandraGemini

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I'm pretty sure they already know it's not useful, or at least I would assume that they know how their own game works. The question that remains is more like: Will they go to the trouble of implementing some quests or other mechanics with Elsweyr that somehow put the stealth detection to use, just so they're able to say: "There you have it! It's useful!". Or will they just leave it as it is now with the reasoning "Well, it's different from Khajiit now, and it's unique! What more do you want?", without caring that it doesn't really have any use at all and is basically just a slap in the face to everyone who wanted their Bosmers to be stealthy.

Jaraal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I honestly don't ever recall them saying they would make stealth detection useful for the majority of players. The new racial passives seem to have been created with PvP in mind, and PvE players are just left to make do with whatever they can make of them. Much like the recent nerfing of player speed, which they stated would allow players with targeting issues to be better able to do damage to mobile players. They didn't consider the effect on PvE players who needed speed to harvest materials or travel between quest locations efficiently, get through dungeons in a reasonable time frame..... or like with the Major Expedition upon killing a hostile NPC armor sets....... they made it so the speed bonus would be gone by the time a werewolf (who doesn't have access to his Rapid Maneuver skill while in form) got finished devouring their kill and made them useless for that playstyle.

I've done enough PvP to unlock certain skills that are beneficial to me in my preferred environment of PvE. So I understand where they're coming from with these changes, I just don't get why they think everybody should be forced to like killing other players. Or why they have never made any PvE improvements that were actually detrimental to PvP play. You would think they would be most interested in pleasing the largest percentage of their player base (non-PvPers), but it never seems to work out that way. It's like they feel the deathmatch aspect of the game is most important, and everything else is just filler.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

Right now Bosmer are average archers, which I think is bearable as it allows for more build diversity, and bad at stealth (seeing how only Khajiit can be considered good). As long as the core themes aren't in order, we shouldn't consider expanding to new themes as that would fundamentally change their identity as a race.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

Sylvermynx

I wonder if the problem lies in perhaps the pvp population diminishing? Sure we hear about how awful the lag is in Cyrodiil - but we don't really have any idea how many people actually spend nearly all of their time IN pvp. Or at least - I don't.... Sorry. Shouldn't pretend I'm replying for everyone!

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

And consider what would happen if they actually implemented something like this? Can you imagine how many threads would be started about "How come Bosmer gets special quests and we don't, where's MY racial only quests, no fair, nerf Bosmer", etc, etc.

And if that becomes part of some hinted at stealth (detection?) tree that is open to everybody, then Bosmer still loses out, is still tied for worst stealthy race, still has lost decades of established lore, and so forth.

Stealth detection is just a lose/lose situation all around.

Red_Feather

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

I don't think they can make it useful without making it feel artificial and forced. The only theme it would work naturally in would be for tracking, guards and detective quests, none of which fit the stealth archetype that Bosmer are known for. It's good to expand on each race and what they are good at, but please not at the cost of previously established lore.
The best course of action to make detection useful on thieves would be to put "sneaking" treasure troves around the world that you have to detect to open, but doesn't feel very sneaky or thievery unless you combine it with the need to stealth, which again, the Bosmer are lacking in.

And consider what would happen if they actually implemented something like this? Can you imagine how many threads would be started about "How come Bosmer gets special quests and we don't, where's MY racial only quests, no fair, nerf Bosmer", etc, etc.

And if that becomes part of some hinted at stealth (detection?) tree that is open to everybody, then Bosmer still loses out, is still tied for worst stealthy race, still has lost decades of established lore, and so forth.

Stealth detection is just a lose/lose situation all around.

Obviously that wouldn't be exclusive Bosmer content, but Bosmer would be better at these quests than others.

And the skill line... well that wouldn't fix anything for the Bosmer really. Unless it has ties to races and if it has ties to race it can only go two ways. Either it's tied so it doesn't stack with racials (putting Bosmer at a disadvantage) or it's tied so that Bosmer get a headstart, which is still suboptimal.

Ratzkifal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

@Red_Feather Oh believe me, it's not useful in PvP. At least not to the point that it matters, but I don't think it's supposed to be anyway. ZOS stated that they wanted a sense of progression in the racials and make them increasingly more powerful, so obviously their first passive has low impact. The detection doesn't help you see a cloaked NB faster because you are in their range before they get revealed, it's a bit counterintuitive as they aren't actually pulled out of invisibility, and while sneaking enemies do get revealed sooner, they also get alerted of your presence before you are of theirs, paradoxically putting the sneaking enemy at an advantage, that is assuming the players don't move randomly.

Jaraal

Red_Feather wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

Will zenimax add content that makes stealth detection useful?

Or just pretend it is without looking into it.

Currently it feels like ZOS is completely fine with shoehorning races to be "pvp oriented" as that adds "diversity" which I think is superficial.

I know what you are saying, but when I said that I had no idea it was useful in pvp.

It's actually not.


When you are hidden, your detection "eye" is closed. When a player or NPC comes in range, but still don't see you, the eye is partially open. When you are discovered, the eye opens fully.

Now, imagine that you are hidden in PvP, and a Nord enemy player is approaching. When he gets within range, say for the sake of discussion, 3 meters...... your eye opens partially and you know someone is near. You are aware of the Nord's presence, whether he actually sees you or not.

Now, let's consider what happens if the player is a Bosmer. He/she will detect you (with the new Hunter's Eye passive) hiding from 3 meters further out, whether he actually "sees" you or not. But what effect does it have on you? Yep, you guessed it. Your "eye" will open while the Bosmer is 3 meters further away from when you knew the Nord was near. So basically, Hunter's Eye has the unique 'benefit' of alerting you twice as early when a Bosmer player is near.

So, is that useful in PvP? I don't see how it is.