@Eiron77 I totally understand that PvE. Like I admitted, more sketchy in PvE Its not the Best choice for pve raid groups going for score, but its not like it can't hang in Vet Trials either.

@MartiniDaniels Some valid points, but what I think is the PvP portion of your statement I couldn't disagree with more. You don't have to build around that passive for it to be good, it just is a very good added bonus.

This guy talks about it around 2:30 and there are many others who agree as well.

https://youtu.be/ZM8bkh-I0Dc

He has plenty more videos of non potato kills and any dmg you do and speed you get while it is up is useful. What you described, in your downplay of its effectiveness, was a situation with fixed variables.

When in the history of ESO has cloak and stealth worked perfectly at all times to receive that bonus dmg from stealth?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

He has plenty more videos of non potato kills and any dmg you do and speed you get while it is up is useful. What you described, in your downplay of its effectiveness, was a situation with fixed variables.

When in the history of ESO has cloak and stealth worked perfectly at all times to receive that bonus dmg from stealth?

I don't doubt this youtuber's skill I'm just saying he puts bad example video for his point. If he roll-dodged to apply off balance and then exploit it will prove something. But he just used stamNBs bread and butter combo 5 seconds after prophylactic roll dodge... btw, 2nd banana in the video is standing AFK half of the encounter and then runs away in unknown direction while youtuber is tea bagging his victim. So it was not 1vX or even 1v2... it was 1v1 between stamblades and obviously youtuber looks like more skilled one. So he won because of skill not because of build or race.

If we talk about bosmer efficiency, Kristofer's videos maybe more representative and he perform some great agile 1vX non-exploit gameplay over there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gRHs4rtFAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btvHV678kaM

Those videos, especially the 2nd one, nicely encapsulates all the reasons I don’t pvp.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The premise is absurd, too; someone contracts out a job to a job board and then once it is taken can't be bothered to wait an extra 5 minutes?

To me the most absurd part of these so called heists is that we do not know where the objectives are.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been said yet, but if the entire reason they wanted to change it was because khajiit and wood elves had the same racial, but they removed that racial from both of them, so then the reason they wanted to change it no longer exists.

Damage from stealth was removed yes, and it was probably a good thing for PVP. But khajiit saved his stealth radius, while bosmers received useless in PVE detection radius, which is also insufficient in PVP without detection pots and which is arguably overkill with pots..
I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

There is nothing wrong with admitting to a mistake and fixing it. It shows maturity and it gathers good will from players.

Jaraal wrote: »

Yeah, I just crouch down behind the wagon with my best thief (Khajiit now, unfortunately), and steal the apples when the eye is closed. If bounty, I sprint to guard, use Clemency passive, and I have a 60 seconds of guards looking the other way. So I mount up and ride down as fast as I can, grab the princess, and ride back out of town at top speed, before the Clemency wears off.

If I receive no bounty, I do the exact same thing, without the stop at the guard. So, not a stealth quest for me at all!

I've only managed to get the "hide behind the cart" trick to work once. Now I just make sure I don't have any stolen goods on me and just pay the bounty if I get caught.

KMarble wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The premise is absurd, too; someone contracts out a job to a job board and then once it is taken can't be bothered to wait an extra 5 minutes?

To me the most absurd part of these so called heists is that we do not know where the objectives are.

I actually think that's valid, just not with the impossible timer attached. I should be able to pick the place clean -- so long as no-one sees me and I don't kill anyone it should be max reward.

I was thinking about Hunter's Eye this morning (which might explain this blinding headache) and I did find one potential spot where its damage isn't terrible. High damage critical hits.

Because HE is a percent damage increase, not flat, comparing it to the other bonuses at high levels can make a difference because flat weapon damage bonuses will likely make up a smaller percentage of the overall damage.

Just as a quick example, if you crit for 50,000 damage in an ideal situation, you'll end up doing 25,000 (assuming they have no critical resistance). With Hunter's Eye you'll do an extra 1135 damage for 26135 total. While that's still only a 4.5% effective damage increase, when you're talking about 25,000 damage, that might actually be enough to put you over the edge from an enemy with 2% health vs a dead one.

However, this does beg the question about racial differences. Khajiit now have extra critical damage and Bosmer's bonus damage really only matters if you hit for large (i.e. critical) hits. So we lost stealth but turned into a crit race? No wonder my head hurts.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, why do you need crit for that? It's always 1500 penetration, plain % bonus.
Simply speaking, in conditions where stam recovery above food and class passives matters, i.e. PVP and solo content, bosmer has highest burst/counter-attack potential of all races. So it may be ideal for dealing with players and adds, but pointless against high-HP bosses, something like that.

You need crit because the bonus damage from penetration is so tiny (22.5 damage for a 1,000 damage hit) that it's worthless at lower levels because it will be easily out healed or shielded. It's like the 6% argonian healing bonus. Because it's unlikely to save you a heal, it doesn't actually do anything. Likewise the Bosmer extra damage is very unlikely to reduce the total number of hits it takes to kill someone. If you it takes 10 hits to kill someone without HE, it's probably still going to take 10 hits to kill them. You'll just kill them with slightly more overkill.

I'm not sure how add resistances work. If they have the same resistance as the boss, then you get the same problems. It's worthless in normal and near worthless in vet. If they have less resistance, then, well HE does even less.

And Bosmer don't have the highest burst, Orc, Dunmer, and Altmer would have that honor. Bosmer are supposed to be a sustain race, not a damage (burst) race. Bosmer are supposed to be able to do more damage over time on account of getting more attacks off.

So if you have an Orc and a Bosmer attack as fast as they can until they run out of stamina, the Orc will do more damage. It's not until you give the recovery time to do its thing that the Bosmer will start to get enough extra attacks to overcome their lack of a damage bonus. But if you try to purposely activate Hunter's Eye, the stamina cost completely negates your sustain bonus.

And therein lies the problem with Hunter's Eye (from the non-stealth side of things). It's a damage boost on an sustain race, so it's going to be weak. It's the same way they broke Spell Recharge on Altmer (didn't want a damage race to have a sustain buff).

A Bosmer, short of having massive amounts of crit chance and damage, will never be able to get enough damage from Hunter's Eye to make up for its cost. Even rolling the minimum of once every 6 seconds to keep Hunter's Eye up will just turn a Bosmer into a weak Orc. And, if what people tell me is true, you roll a lot in PvP, then sustain doesn't matter. No race, no matter how buffed, has the sustain to roll every 3-4 seconds. You will quickly run out of stamina and need pots or external support.

If I were going to PvP, it would be as an Orc or Nord. Orc damage laughs at Hunter's Eye and their sprint bonus rubs dirt in its eye. Their health regen is going to cancel out a lot of Hunter's Eye damage as well. Nords on the other hand will just ignore Hunter's Eye because their racial resistance is almost three times as high as the pen boost. 400% if you attack them with cold damage.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

You are right that in case of single 1k LA 129 WD (equivalent set bonus to 1500 penetration) will be more profitable, but this is not the case in real situation where LA hits for 10k and skill paired with it hits for 15k. Yes that is halved in PVP and then decreased even more due to resistances (if they are not penetrated), but WD effect will be reduced same way and in any case bosmer passive will give you 2.25% more damage while other races has nothing on top of their 258 damage (and they are forced to use shacklebreaker or serpent sign or cost/recovery jewelry to compensate lack of sustain passive).

It's more complex for khajiit, but if we compare stam dunmer, orc and bosmer in PVP, orc will be tougher for 1k HP and fast at sprinting, dark elf will have more max magicka (for cloak, wings, purge etc) and fire resistance, and bosmer will have more burst damage, more general speed (since you roll-dodge almost on dodge fatigue cool down) and poison resistance.

You may say that bosmer passive doesn't work if you are not under fire and only attacking, but it will be the same for orc and dunmer, if they are not under attack their extra HP/magicka gives nothing. So in PVP/solo all races are quite balanced. It's in min-maxed PVE group content bosmers are slightly behind and also we lost stealth which removed chunk of gameplay and immersion.

I'll be honest, I'm not 100% up to date with the PvP differences to damages, but I think for the most part it's not too important since most of the math cancels out. It's only weird ones like the Bosmer penetration bonus that throw wrenches into the math. So if I get something wrong, that's why.

I still disagree with your assertion that Bosmer are good at burst. None of their skills lend themselves to burst. Burst is doing a lot of damage in a short period of time while Bosmer are a sustain race that is meant to keep doing damage after their opponents are out of resources. Orcs, Dunmer, and Altmer are burst classes, they get more damage per strike and no sustain to keep them going. Where as Breton and Bosmer are sustain classes with Breton have cheaper abilities and Bosmer more sustain.

That 2.25% damage bonus though is coming at a huge cost. Even at 75% reduction, if you're rolling on cool down (every three seconds?), that means you're spending 900 stamina every three seconds which needs 600 stamina recovery to counter. Plus every roll is a significant portion of time that you're not attacking.

I never said anything about Bosmer not working if you're not under fire. Rather it's a huge DPS loss to use, so it's stupid to use offensively. In the time it takes to roll, you can get off at least one attack, and probably a light attack/ability combo. It would take 44 of those combos with Hunter's Eye just to make up for the loss of the one combo you missed by rolling.

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

FYI:

In the upcoming Final Fantasy XIV expansion called "Shadowbringers" SquareEnix decided to deliver two gender-locked races when they stated years ago gender-locked races would never be a thing. The community is not very pleased by that and voices its concerns in the forums. That's a topic where community outrage is understandable and there is a lot and I mean a lot of support. You can check the FF XIV forums for that:

On the only female race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385710-Male-Viera-as-a-playable-character!-show-your-support (initial post has almost 1550 likes, the thread has over 219 pages)

On the only male race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385999-Female-Hrothgar-as-a-playable-race.-Show-your-support! (initial post has more than 1000 likes and 50 pages)

And there are several more threads in the scope of the mentioned two.

Why do I bring this up in this thread? To compare a reasonable outrage and one that has barely any reason to exist. Support for the different topics shows that too. Bosmer losing stealth can easily be adjusted by changing equipment and adapting. That's it. The racial change might be questionable from a lore standpoint but in the end it's totally negligible. That's the reason why ZOS has decided to ignore this thread as of now. Oh and for sure by the very small support this topic gets from the community.

In SE's defense as it would relate to this thread, they aren't breaking lore at all, more like reintroducing it!

That's right, it's still a broken promise they gave years ago. I don't really care about the gender-locked races, just wanted to point out the slight difference between FFXIV community and ESO community when it comes to meaningful issues and community wide support for that topic.

Watching this thread surpass 50 pages is no surprise. The stealth change is unpopular by a very wide margin, even on a poll posted in the Combat section many weeks after the change, in a place where people might be more interested in game mechanics than lore.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465076/bosmer-poll#latest

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

FYI:

In the upcoming Final Fantasy XIV expansion called "Shadowbringers" SquareEnix decided to deliver two gender-locked races when they stated years ago gender-locked races would never be a thing. The community is not very pleased by that and voices its concerns in the forums. That's a topic where community outrage is understandable and there is a lot and I mean a lot of support. You can check the FF XIV forums for that:

On the only female race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385710-Male-Viera-as-a-playable-character!-show-your-support (initial post has almost 1550 likes, the thread has over 219 pages)

On the only male race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385999-Female-Hrothgar-as-a-playable-race.-Show-your-support! (initial post has more than 1000 likes and 50 pages)

And there are several more threads in the scope of the mentioned two.

Why do I bring this up in this thread? To compare a reasonable outrage and one that has barely any reason to exist. Support for the different topics shows that too. Bosmer losing stealth can easily be adjusted by changing equipment and adapting. That's it. The racial change might be questionable from a lore standpoint but in the end it's totally negligible. That's the reason why ZOS has decided to ignore this thread as of now. Oh and for sure by the very small support this topic gets from the community.

In SE's defense as it would relate to this thread, they aren't breaking lore at all, more like reintroducing it!

That's right, it's still a broken promise they gave years ago. I don't really care about the gender-locked races, just wanted to point out the slight difference between FFXIV community and ESO community when it comes to meaningful issues and community wide support for that topic.

It's as bad comparison as it is. Even on shield changes there were no threads with 1000 agree's and so on. ESO forum is closed to vote from bypassers, you can't even register at will. And I don't remember thread reaching 200 pages no matter the topic. Oh, ok, there is such a thread - 3 word story which last from 2014.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/129396/3-word-story-the-elder-scrolls-way/p1

In terms of population of ESO forum this thread has more then enough support to prove it's point.

The SE forums are as closed as the ESO forums. You need a valid SE Account (you need to have bought the game) to aces them. So they are comparable to this forum. But I don’t think that there are more unique posters the here. You will (as is the case here) often See the same players.

Oh, and SE gave a reason for their decisions: they really wanted to add both races and ran out of time adapting the character models for all gear sets in the game. In generell they are way more communicative then ZOS (which isn’t hard ...)