Thank you BlueRaven for your dogged persistence!

Also guys, I....became a vampire last night.

I just missed my sneak speed so much. I used to be able to run Night's Silence + Night Mother's Embrace and a monster set, because of my natural stealth bonus. When they took our stealth bonus, I had to pull in Night Terror and lose my monster set, plus do awkward bar swaps to even get close to what I had before.

Now I can use my monster set again, but I look like a hot mess. I just want my stealth bonus back.

Truthsnark wrote: »

Thank you BlueRaven for your dogged persistence!

Also guys, I....became a vampire last night.

I just missed my sneak speed so much. I used to be able to run Night's Silence + Night Mother's Embrace and a monster set, because of my natural stealth bonus. When they took our stealth bonus, I had to pull in Night Terror and lose my monster set, plus do awkward bar swaps to even get close to what I had before.

Now I can use my monster set again, but I look like a hot mess. I just want my stealth bonus back.

I have the new "Arctic Rime Skin" on my Bosmer vampire, which was illustrated in another thread to hide vampirism very well. It does a good job. I like how there is still light white streaks in spots that kind of make it look like she is wearing make-up to hide her vampirism. You may wish to consider this option too, at least until/if Bosmer stealth is addressed.

anadandy wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I'm not jazzed about the Bosmer racial being replaced by a stealth line - however, I am slightly heartened that they seem to be aware that we're out here.

They still handled it badly - if the line was coming they should have waited to make such a drastic change to the race until it was in a state where they could talk about it - for me that would have made a big difference. I will stay cautiously optimistic for now.

And you talked to Brian Wheeler! [insert flailing hands gif]

That was really cool. But I still can’t believe I got a selfie with Pete Hines!

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Btw, the rumor of what class changes might be gets two responses.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/465659/where-were-the-upcoming-class-changes-officially-released-at/p1

Here, 45+ pages, nothing.

The way I see it there's no way for ZOS to give an answer here that will do less harm than just not saying anything.

So this is just a tug of war between the people in this thread and ZOS. The first side to let go loses. Though I really wonder how long ZOS can keep this up.

I'd prefer if someone came to this thread and said something along the lines of "we're aware of your complaints but can't talk about it right now".

Most people posting here are (I hope) mature enough to understand that the devs cannot share everything, and even a single reply like what I posted above would generate some good will IMO.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ok I got to talk with someone after the show, they are aware of the thread. And they are working on something. Timetable unknown, I am guessing NOT in Elsweyr.

Overall I had a pretty good day! I am leaving much happier then when I came in.

Thank you for keeping us updated. Glad to know you had a great time.

Uryel wrote: »

So, they're thinking about a way to open stealth to everyone ? That's good. I'll think about re-subbing when they actually do it.

Something I have noted recently, too, with the recent event that was about thieves guild and dark brotherhood, is how heist and sacrament missions are NOT representative of stealthy gameplay.

When we started complaining about losing the stealth bonus, people said "I maxed out both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on <insert some non stealthy character here>, it's easy and you're just whiners". Well, now that I replayed those missions, I'll agree with them, it's easy. It's easy because those are not stealth missions.

Those missions are about mobility, not noticeability. You need to move fast from one forced and awkward hiding spot (even labelled as such) to another, else the super magic lamp of the guard will reveal you, even if you are using an invisibility potion. Those missions consist of large hjallways in which staying out of sight is easy, and forced tight hallways with convenient hiding spots. It's easy, once you get the rythm of it, you just give a wide berthe to everything, and time your movements out of the big bad evil magic circles of invisibility breaking.

How is that stealth ? Stealth is being able to go through a tight hallway because you're THAT good at hiding. It's about timing the use of a concealment skill or potion so that you can actually squeeze between guards when required. It's not about hiding in the convenient cloth basket that for some reason exists even in a daedric temple or a sewer to avoid the magic lanterns that are so good the all-seeing, ever-watching eye of Sauron seems lackluster.

Basically, those missions feel forced, contrived, and awkward. The actual stealth in those DLC happens in the story quests, or the minor missions that happen in open world (but in the latter, only if you care to avoid bounty), but not in heists and sacraments. Those are more like Quick Time Events.

Thank you! Unlike you, I started TG and DB just a few weeks before the event, but got the same feeling you got. More than once I caught myself complaining about this to my (very bored) husband, which was the reason I said a few days ago in this thread that what the devs consider "stealth" is different from what I consider stealth.

It should be like in Oblivion, if someone died during a robbery quest you failed the quest (at least I remember it that way). The Guild is not the Brotherhood, you should insta-fail the better reward if you kill anyone. The premise is absurd, too; someone contracts out a job to a job board and then once it is taken can't be bothered to wait an extra 5 minutes? The missions goals for a perfect heist should be no-one dies and not being noticed, and that's it. Maybe just have the scary boss guy start hanging around the entrance when the time runs out; they usually have the detection circle around them, so they'd have a better chance of seeing you so you'd want to get out early if you can. Sacraments actually feel more like heists than heists do, as someone else has mentioned.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Here's the thing though.. Creating a stealth skill line still doesn't fix Hunters Eye. Until that god awful stealth detection passive is replaced with something useful, PvE bosmers are missing any benefit from one of their racials.

I have 22 unspent skill points instead of 19. I guess that's kinda sorta a benefit. Almost.

wedgebert wrote: »

I don't think there's much you can do to make the roll dodge better because, unlike every other passive, it requires a large and often times optional, expenditure of stamina to activate. Without having a very niche build, outside of PvP it will always be better to just attack. No other race has this specialized requirement.

Every other race that has a "similar" passive is triggered by doing their normal rotation (using a class ability or a melee strike), so in essence it's free for them. Meanwhile Bosmer have to use a defensive ability when there's no need to defend.

And the kicker, like others and myself have mentioned, is that it's a DPS loss. Even if roll dodging was 100% free, the damage lost during the roll dodge will always be greater than the damage gained by the buff.

Even in PvP where apparently people are roll dodging everywhere, the same still holds. But at least there you're actual dodging things.

Like you said MartiniDaniels, all the benefit comes from sets and CP points.

It's a 100% garbage talent:

• It's expensive
• It's a DPS loss due to missed attacks
• In PvE, it's likely not doing anything since you'd be at/near the pen cap
• In PvP it's a paltry amount of damage, that like the underpowered Argonain 6% heal boost, just means you'll overkill your opponent by 510 damage instead of 500.
• The loss of stealth is a huge almost dealbreaking break with the lore
• And the kicker, against a stealthed opponent, Hunter's Eye actually makes it easier for Bosmer to be "detected" because that 3m radius increase means opponent's "Hidden Eye" will start opening even sooner. (to make up numbers, you might spot them at 8m, but they'll know you're nearby at 11m)

Absolutely 100% agree. I and others stated all of this during PTS. So sad that it got pushed through.

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Surprised this thing is still a thing.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. In PvP at least, you are already roll dodging for other reasons, so this gives you a buff for already doing so. PvE maybe a bit more sketchy, but I seem to recall plenty of situations where a roll dodge was pertinent, unless you're talking about just strolling the countryside killing mobs.

It's a pretty terrible buff though. It's a low damage boost (half a major berserk at best) that just gets weaker the more base pen you have or the less resistance the target has.

And in PvE, it's practically worthless because normal monsters have a such low resistance cap that at best it's only a 2.5% effective damage buff. And in veteran it's about 3%. And that's assuming you have 0 pen and the target is capped. Practically no one has 0 penetration.

Math to prove:

In a normal trial, bosses will have 9.1k resistance which works out to 13.79% damage reduction. 1500 pen from Hunter's Eye reduces a 2.27% from that.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 862 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 884 damage
884 / 102.5% which means you did 2.5% more damage than you would have.


In a veteran trial, the boss will have 18.2K resistance which works out to (18200 / 660) 27.57% damage reduction.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 724 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 747 damage
747 / 724 = 103% which means you did 3% more damage than you would have.

If you run those numbers with a properly outfitted raid group applying buffs and debuffs, you'll probably have around 17k penetration base. We'll run it for 10k and 17k to give an optimistic and pessimistic run. This only matters in vet, because in normal you've already reduced the boss's resistances to 0 so Hunter's Eye literally will not help. Hell, Major Fracture and Sunderflame alone will knock a normal boss down to 9100 - 5280 - 3440 = 380 resistance which is about 0.5% damage reduction.

17k penetration means the boss will have 0.8% damage reduction. Your 1000 damage strike will do 992 damage. With Hunter's Eye, you do the full 1000 because most of it went to waste. 1000 / 992 = 100.8% damage, so you got 0.8% more effective damage.

10k resistance basically brings you down to Normal with no penetration levels. So you'll get a touch more than the 2.5% from the first normal run.

These numbers can also apply to PvP where your best case (target has 50% resistance and no buffer) and you have 0 pen so you do 4.5% more damage and drops from there.

Another important thing to realize is that rolling takes time and stamina. So you really only get ~5 seconds worth of buff. And that time spent rolling will cost you more DPS than if Hunter's Eye had a 100% uptime for the entire fight. Both from time lost attacking and the single spammable attack you missed out on due to lack of resources.

My main character is still a Bosmer, don't think about change it and wanna say what I feel too but I'm afraid of mail notifications after commenting on this topic. Hey, wait..