Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Jaraal · March 2019

KMarble wrote: »

I started TG and DB just a few weeks before the event, but got the same feeling you got. More than once I caught myself complaining about this to my (very bored) husband, which was the reason I said a few days ago in this thread that what the devs consider "stealth" is different from what I consider stealth.

Agreed, and it's the timers that change them from stealth quests into speed runs. The sacraments are only slightly better, because you can actually utilize stealth until the 2 minute timer starts, and then it too, becomes just a speed run. The Kari's Hit List quest is a good one: you can take your time and use all aspects of stealth..... including waiting until the right moment, without the pressure of a clock.

The heists, however, are best done just killing everybody and looting everything. I've gotten some pretty nice recipes and furnishing plans from cleaning everything out.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

It should be like in Oblivion, if someone died during a robbery quest you failed the quest (at least I remember it that way). The Guild is not the Brotherhood, you should insta-fail the better reward if you kill anyone. The premise is absurd, too; someone contracts out a job to a job board and then once it is taken can't be bothered to wait an extra 5 minutes? The missions goals for a perfect heist should be no-one dies and not being noticed, and that's it. Maybe just have the scary boss guy start hanging around the entrance when the time runs out; they usually have the detection circle around them, so they'd have a better chance of seeing you so you'd want to get out early if you can. Sacraments actually feel more like heists than heists do, as someone else has mentioned.

Eiron77 · March 2019

Here's the thing though.. Creating a stealth skill line still doesn't fix Hunters Eye. Until that god awful stealth detection passive is replaced with something useful, PvE bosmers are missing any benefit from one of their racials.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Eiron77 wrote: »

Here's the thing though.. Creating a stealth skill line still doesn't fix Hunters Eye. Until that god awful stealth detection passive is replaced with something useful, PvE bosmers are missing any benefit from one of their racials.

I have 22 unspent skill points instead of 19. I guess that's kinda sorta a benefit. Almost.

Jaraal · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Here's the thing though.. Creating a stealth skill line still doesn't fix Hunters Eye. Until that god awful stealth detection passive is replaced with something useful, PvE bosmers are missing any benefit from one of their racials.

I have 22 unspent skill points instead of 19. I guess that's kinda sorta a benefit. Almost.

Yeah, I can tell you from experience that the roll dodge portion of it is not worth it. Any extra damage you may get for six seconds (more like four and a half or five, as the effect is triggered once you start rolling around) is negated by the damage you aren't actually doing while you're on your head/shoulders/back/butt before you get back on your feet and can finally use abilities and weapons again.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Here's the thing though.. Creating a stealth skill line still doesn't fix Hunters Eye. Until that god awful stealth detection passive is replaced with something useful, PvE bosmers are missing any benefit from one of their racials.

I have 22 unspent skill points instead of 19. I guess that's kinda sorta a benefit. Almost.

Yeah, I can tell you from experience that the roll dodge portion of it is not worth it. Any extra damage you may get for six seconds (more like four and a half or five, as the effect is triggered once you start rolling around) is negated by the damage you aren't actually doing while you're on your head/shoulders/back/butt before you get back on your feet and can finally use abilities and weapons again.

Well, it's useless in PVE dps rotation for sure (i tried it many times, dps is higher if you simply stand each time no matter sets/rotation), but in more active content like PVP, VMA or solo WB etc it is useful for "counterattacks" paired with Senche. I.e. you drop your dots, timed roll-dodge puts enemy off-balance and then you follow with heavy attack on off-balanced enemy for spectacular effect on you sustain and knocking enemy back, while your dots are working with increased WD and penetration. So trick is to apply dots before roll-dodge not after it. I won't say it worked that way in PVP, but in solo PVE it just amazing.
Still majority of effect here is not from bosmer passive but from CP perks.
So in my opinion this roll-dodge thing is interesting but number should be greater to be viable. And penetration is bad stat for that. If it gave at least 250 WD on roll-dodge it will more useful (this will also buff vigor in case roll-dodge is purely defensive one).

wedgebert · March 2019

I don't think there's much you can do to make the roll dodge better because, unlike every other passive, it requires a large and often times optional, expenditure of stamina to activate. Without having a very niche build, outside of PvP it will always be better to just attack. No other race has this specialized requirement.

Every other race that has a "similar" passive is triggered by doing their normal rotation (using a class ability or a melee strike), so in essence it's free for them. Meanwhile Bosmer have to use a defensive ability when there's no need to defend.

And the kicker, like others and myself have mentioned, is that it's a DPS loss. Even if roll dodging was 100% free, the damage lost during the roll dodge will always be greater than the damage gained by the buff.

Even in PvP where apparently people are roll dodging everywhere, the same still holds. But at least there you're actual dodging things.

Like you said MartiniDaniels, all the benefit comes from sets and CP points.

It's a 100% garbage talent:

It's expensive
It's a DPS loss due to missed attacks
In PvE, it's likely not doing anything since you'd be at/near the pen cap
In PvP it's a paltry amount of damage, that like the underpowered Argonain 6% heal boost, just means you'll overkill your opponent by 510 damage instead of 500.
The loss of stealth is a huge almost dealbreaking break with the lore
And the kicker, against a stealthed opponent, Hunter's Eye actually makes it easier for Bosmer to be "detected" because that 3m radius increase means opponent's "Hidden Eye" will start opening even sooner. (to make up numbers, you might spot them at 8m, but they'll know you're nearby at 11m)

Jaraal · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So in my opinion this roll-dodge thing is interesting but number should be greater to be viable. And penetration is bad stat for that. If it gave at least 250 WD on roll-dodge it will more useful (this will also buff vigor in case roll-dodge is purely defensive one).

Currently it's Rank I = 6 sec, Rank II = 6 sec, Rank III = 6 sec. Might be more appealing and useful in 6, 8, 10 or 6, 9, 12 second intervals.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So in my opinion this roll-dodge thing is interesting but number should be greater to be viable. And penetration is bad stat for that. If it gave at least 250 WD on roll-dodge it will more useful (this will also buff vigor in case roll-dodge is purely defensive one).

Currently it's Rank I = 6 sec, Rank II = 6 sec, Rank III = 6 sec. Might be more appealing and useful in 6, 8, 10 or 6, 9, 12 second intervals.

Well, 6 seconds matches dodge increased cost cooldown and senche's proc length (funny that whole racial passive work around 1 set)... but from the other point of view it will make it more viable in PVE and overland (12 sec speed buff will be nice), while not making it OP in PVP.

Eiron77 · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

I don't think there's much you can do to make the roll dodge better because, unlike every other passive, it requires a large and often times optional, expenditure of stamina to activate. Without having a very niche build, outside of PvP it will always be better to just attack. No other race has this specialized requirement.

Every other race that has a "similar" passive is triggered by doing their normal rotation (using a class ability or a melee strike), so in essence it's free for them. Meanwhile Bosmer have to use a defensive ability when there's no need to defend.

And the kicker, like others and myself have mentioned, is that it's a DPS loss. Even if roll dodging was 100% free, the damage lost during the roll dodge will always be greater than the damage gained by the buff.

Even in PvP where apparently people are roll dodging everywhere, the same still holds. But at least there you're actual dodging things.

Like you said MartiniDaniels, all the benefit comes from sets and CP points.

It's a 100% garbage talent:
It's expensive

It's a DPS loss due to missed attacks

In PvE, it's likely not doing anything since you'd be at/near the pen cap

In PvP it's a paltry amount of damage, that like the underpowered Argonain 6% heal boost, just means you'll overkill your opponent by 510 damage instead of 500.

The loss of stealth is a huge almost dealbreaking break with the lore

And the kicker, against a stealthed opponent, Hunter's Eye actually makes it easier for Bosmer to be "detected" because that 3m radius increase means opponent's "Hidden Eye" will start opening even sooner. (to make up numbers, you might spot them at 8m, but they'll know you're nearby at 11m)

Absolutely 100% agree. I and others stated all of this during PTS. So sad that it got pushed through.

Jcarson0408 · March 2019

Not sure if this has been said yet, but if the entire reason they wanted to change it was because khajiit and wood elves had the same racial, but they removed that racial from both of them, so then the reason they wanted to change it no longer exists.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been said yet, but if the entire reason they wanted to change it was because khajiit and wood elves had the same racial, but they removed that racial from both of them, so then the reason they wanted to change it no longer exists.

Damage from stealth was removed yes, and it was probably a good thing for PVP. But khajiit saved his stealth radius, while bosmers received useless in PVE detection radius, which is also insufficient in PVP without detection pots and which is arguably overkill with pots..
I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

wedgebert · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

[

Damage from stealth was removed yes, and it was probably a good thing for PVP. But khajiit saved his stealth radius, while bosmers received useless in PVE detection radius, which is also insufficient in PVP without detection pots and which is arguably overkill with pots..
I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

They could just admit defeat and revert everything except for the change from +% to +X passives. I'll admit I didn't pay much attention the forums until the Wrathstone PTS, but I recall most of the racial passive complaints were "X race is OP or Y race to too weak".

Wrathstone didn't fix that. As from RP reasons, there's no reason to play Bosmer or Argonain unless you're looking for a challenge. Neither race offers anything of value from a min/max standpoint. Hell, you could probably get by just playing Orc, Breton, and whatever the current tank race is and not even worry about choices.

We went from imbalanced races to imbalanced races and lore problems.

Jaraal · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

There are already 10 threads like this on various topics every day, but the vast majority of them drop off the front page quickly, because they are minor complaints, or some change that hurts a niche build or whatever. But we're talking about rewriting decades of Bosmer history, and their renown as masters of stealth. Nobody is buying into wood elves as being the elite sentry class they are trying to make believe they are now. Nobody is making jokes and memes about other classes' racial changes.

Why would they find a hidden solution, when the solution is to make Bosmers Bosmers again? Even if they change the watchdog, PvP only part of the racial back to 3 meters stealth detection radius reduction, we will still have the worst racial buffs in total (although not too far ahead of Argonians, for sure.)

There's still a chance to regain goodwill and customer interest in playing this race. Developers would make themselves look better by saying "Maybe we didn't think this through thoroughly, and we're going to restore some of the previous passive, while still retaining our separation from Khajiit with their new crit buffs and Bosmer keeping their new speed/pen buff (or something else)", than by saying "Oh, we have future plans for everybody to get stealth someday," and leaving it at that and waiting for us to go away.

I don't plan on going away quietly. Every time I see my Bosmer main at the character select screen, he gives me that look of "Why aren't you playing me like before? Make them fix me so we can go steal stuff and have good times again! You didn't spend all that time getting me those titles and achievements just so I can log in and do writs once a day, did you? C'mon, buddy... get back to those forums!"

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

There are already 10 threads like this on various topics every day, but the vast majority of them drop off the front page quickly, because they are minor complaints, or some change that hurts a niche build or whatever. But we're talking about rewriting decades of Bosmer history, and their renown as masters of stealth. Nobody is buying into wood elves as being the elite sentry class they are trying to make believe they are now. Nobody is making jokes and memes about other classes' racial changes.

Well, those threads are dropped because people know that ZOS won't change anything fast and ZOS knows that people will adapt to nerf of class skills eventually. In case of bosmer it's rare situation that so many people think the same and there are so many factors to revert this changes while literally none to keep them. But if ZOS agrees and gives stealth back, people may find arguments for other changes too... there is already persistent argonian thread, then there will be khajiit thread to return crit chance and so on..
So only way of this for ZOS is to change situation indirectly, maybe revamp legerdemain skill line and in the same time increase stealth detection role in PVE.. for example allow bosmer to dispel invisibility while crouching etc..

Jaraal · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, those threads are dropped because people know that ZOS won't change anything fast and ZOS knows that people will adapt to nerf of class skills eventually. In case of bosmer it's rare situation that so many people think the same and there are so many factors to revert this changes while literally none to keep them. But if ZOS agrees and gives stealth back, people may find arguments for other changes too... there is already persistent argonian thread, then there will be khajiit thread to return crit chance and so on..
So only way of this for ZOS is to change situation indirectly, maybe revamp legerdemain skill line and in the same time increase stealth detection role in PVE.. for example allow bosmer to dispel invisibility while crouching etc..

Sounds like you're saying ZOS is afraid of people asking for reasonable changes. Well, I can assure you they are the masters of ignoring threads, if need be. I doubt they would NOT make changes because they were afraid others would ask for more changes. They benefit from having an active forum, I don't see why they wouldn't welcome constructive discourse. Every change is made because somebody felt they could make something better.... which is a good thing. And they would look more favorable admitting that they are human than trying to sweep the issue under the rug with half-hearted compromises.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

Surprised this thing is still a thing.

Jaraal wrote: »

Yeah, I can tell you from experience that the roll dodge portion of it is not worth it. Any extra damage you may get for six seconds (more like four and a half or five, as the effect is triggered once you start rolling around) is negated by the damage you aren't actually doing while you're on your head/shoulders/back/butt before you get back on your feet and can finally use abilities and weapons again.

I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. In PvP at least, you are already roll dodging for other reasons, so this gives you a buff for already doing so. PvE maybe a bit more sketchy, but I seem to recall plenty of situations where a roll dodge was pertinent, unless you're talking about just strolling the countryside killing mobs.

wedgebert · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Surprised this thing is still a thing.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. In PvP at least, you are already roll dodging for other reasons, so this gives you a buff for already doing so. PvE maybe a bit more sketchy, but I seem to recall plenty of situations where a roll dodge was pertinent, unless you're talking about just strolling the countryside killing mobs.

It's a pretty terrible buff though. It's a low damage boost (half a major berserk at best) that just gets weaker the more base pen you have or the less resistance the target has.

And in PvE, it's practically worthless because normal monsters have a such low resistance cap that at best it's only a 2.5% effective damage buff. And in veteran it's about 3%. And that's assuming you have 0 pen and the target is capped. Practically no one has 0 penetration.

Math to prove:

In a normal trial, bosses will have 9.1k resistance which works out to 13.79% damage reduction. 1500 pen from Hunter's Eye reduces a 2.27% from that.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 862 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 884 damage
884 / 102.5% which means you did 2.5% more damage than you would have.

In a veteran trial, the boss will have 18.2K resistance which works out to (18200 / 660) 27.57% damage reduction.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 724 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 747 damage
747 / 724 = 103% which means you did 3% more damage than you would have.

If you run those numbers with a properly outfitted raid group applying buffs and debuffs, you'll probably have around 17k penetration base. We'll run it for 10k and 17k to give an optimistic and pessimistic run. This only matters in vet, because in normal you've already reduced the boss's resistances to 0 so Hunter's Eye literally will not help. Hell, Major Fracture and Sunderflame alone will knock a normal boss down to 9100 - 5280 - 3440 = 380 resistance which is about 0.5% damage reduction.

17k penetration means the boss will have 0.8% damage reduction. Your 1000 damage strike will do 992 damage. With Hunter's Eye, you do the full 1000 because most of it went to waste. 1000 / 992 = 100.8% damage, so you got 0.8% more effective damage.

10k resistance basically brings you down to Normal with no penetration levels. So you'll get a touch more than the 2.5% from the first normal run.

These numbers can also apply to PvP where your best case (target has 50% resistance and no buffer) and you have 0 pen so you do 4.5% more damage and drops from there.

Another important thing to realize is that rolling takes time and stamina. So you really only get ~5 seconds worth of buff. And that time spent rolling will cost you more DPS than if Hunter's Eye had a 100% uptime for the entire fight. Both from time lost attacking and the single spammable attack you missed out on due to lack of resources.

Eiron77 · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Surprised this thing is still a thing.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. In PvP at least, you are already roll dodging for other reasons, so this gives you a buff for already doing so. PvE maybe a bit more sketchy, but I seem to recall plenty of situations where a roll dodge was pertinent, unless you're talking about just strolling the countryside killing mobs.

It's a pretty terrible buff though. It's a low damage boost (half a major berserk at best) that just gets weaker the more base pen you have or the less resistance the target has.

And in PvE, it's practically worthless because normal monsters have a such low resistance cap that at best it's only a 2.5% effective damage buff. And in veteran it's about 3%. And that's assuming you have 0 pen and the target is capped. Practically no one has 0 penetration.

Math to prove:

In a normal trial, bosses will have 9.1k resistance which works out to 13.79% damage reduction. 1500 pen from Hunter's Eye reduces a 2.27% from that.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 862 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 884 damage
884 / 102.5% which means you did 2.5% more damage than you would have.

In a veteran trial, the boss will have 18.2K resistance which works out to (18200 / 660) 27.57% damage reduction.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 724 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 747 damage
747 / 724 = 103% which means you did 3% more damage than you would have.

If you run those numbers with a properly outfitted raid group applying buffs and debuffs, you'll probably have around 17k penetration base. We'll run it for 10k and 17k to give an optimistic and pessimistic run. This only matters in vet, because in normal you've already reduced the boss's resistances to 0 so Hunter's Eye literally will not help. Hell, Major Fracture and Sunderflame alone will knock a normal boss down to 9100 - 5280 - 3440 = 380 resistance which is about 0.5% damage reduction.

17k penetration means the boss will have 0.8% damage reduction. Your 1000 damage strike will do 992 damage. With Hunter's Eye, you do the full 1000 because most of it went to waste. 1000 / 992 = 100.8% damage, so you got 0.8% more effective damage.

10k resistance basically brings you down to Normal with no penetration levels. So you'll get a touch more than the 2.5% from the first normal run.

These numbers can also apply to PvP where your best case (target has 50% resistance and no buffer) and you have 0 pen so you do 4.5% more damage and drops from there.

Another important thing to realize is that rolling takes time and stamina. So you really only get ~5 seconds worth of buff. And that time spent rolling will cost you more DPS than if Hunter's Eye had a 100% uptime for the entire fight. Both from time lost attacking and the single spammable attack you missed out on due to lack of resources.

And it costs 3.6k stamina doing an action not part of your rotation (unless you're a rare niche build for it). No other racial costs that much for such lacklusterisness.

Mendosa · March 2019

My main character is still a Bosmer, don't think about change it and wanna say what I feel too but I'm afraid of mail notifications after commenting on this topic. Hey, wait..

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Eiron77 wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Surprised this thing is still a thing.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. In PvP at least, you are already roll dodging for other reasons, so this gives you a buff for already doing so. PvE maybe a bit more sketchy, but I seem to recall plenty of situations where a roll dodge was pertinent, unless you're talking about just strolling the countryside killing mobs.

It's a pretty terrible buff though. It's a low damage boost (half a major berserk at best) that just gets weaker the more base pen you have or the less resistance the target has.

And in PvE, it's practically worthless because normal monsters have a such low resistance cap that at best it's only a 2.5% effective damage buff. And in veteran it's about 3%. And that's assuming you have 0 pen and the target is capped. Practically no one has 0 penetration.

Math to prove:

In a normal trial, bosses will have 9.1k resistance which works out to 13.79% damage reduction. 1500 pen from Hunter's Eye reduces a 2.27% from that.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 862 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 884 damage
884 / 102.5% which means you did 2.5% more damage than you would have.

In a veteran trial, the boss will have 18.2K resistance which works out to (18200 / 660) 27.57% damage reduction.

So if you hit for 1000 an zero penetration, you will do 724 damage
If you hit for 1000 with 1500 penetration, you will 747 damage
747 / 724 = 103% which means you did 3% more damage than you would have.

If you run those numbers with a properly outfitted raid group applying buffs and debuffs, you'll probably have around 17k penetration base. We'll run it for 10k and 17k to give an optimistic and pessimistic run. This only matters in vet, because in normal you've already reduced the boss's resistances to 0 so Hunter's Eye literally will not help. Hell, Major Fracture and Sunderflame alone will knock a normal boss down to 9100 - 5280 - 3440 = 380 resistance which is about 0.5% damage reduction.

17k penetration means the boss will have 0.8% damage reduction. Your 1000 damage strike will do 992 damage. With Hunter's Eye, you do the full 1000 because most of it went to waste. 1000 / 992 = 100.8% damage, so you got 0.8% more effective damage.

10k resistance basically brings you down to Normal with no penetration levels. So you'll get a touch more than the 2.5% from the first normal run.

These numbers can also apply to PvP where your best case (target has 50% resistance and no buffer) and you have 0 pen so you do 4.5% more damage and drops from there.

Another important thing to realize is that rolling takes time and stamina. So you really only get ~5 seconds worth of buff. And that time spent rolling will cost you more DPS than if Hunter's Eye had a 100% uptime for the entire fight. Both from time lost attacking and the single spammable attack you missed out on due to lack of resources.

And it costs 3.6k stamina doing an action not part of your rotation (unless you're a rare niche build for it). No other racial costs that much for such lacklusterisness.

Even if we talk about specialized roll dodge build it will be still ~2.5k cost for 3% damage increase in PVE and 2.2% in PVP. Given that you don't attack in any way for 1 sec each 6 seconds while roll-dodging, it's loss of 15% damage to receive 2-3%, obviously pointless unless made as defensive move.
So basically, the only and rather rare and extremely timing dependent situation where all this pay off is that combo of dodge to put off-balance after applying dots and then heavy attack with bow or gap-closer and melee heavy attack which can be blocked/dodged and then it's you who will be off-balanced after that

but bow attack is weak and doesn't have additional effects so you need gap closer and melee 2H HA for increased effect.
If enemy is not on off-balance cooldown, if he won't break free and made block or timed roll-dodge. your HA will land with notable damage, knockdown enemy and restore you ton of resources and also may give you invisibility if it was finishing hit... well, "notable" damage is of course lesser then what you will get by LA spamming and bosses are immune to majority effects, and a lot of mobs like to block/dodge heavy attacks. (players obviously too)
So only real application of all this is dealing with adds in VMA or while soloing group content. I guess both cases are not what is taken into consideration for balancing and of course dps oriented build may simply burn that adds in less time without all this dancing and risks.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

@Eiron77 I totally understand that PvE. Like I admitted, more sketchy in PvE Its not the Best choice for pve raid groups going for score, but its not like it can't hang in Vet Trials either.

@MartiniDaniels Some valid points, but what I think is the PvP portion of your statement I couldn't disagree with more. You don't have to build around that passive for it to be good, it just is a very good added bonus.

This guy talks about it around 2:30 and there are many others who agree as well.

https://youtu.be/ZM8bkh-I0Dc

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Eiron77 I totally understand that PvE. Like I admitted, more sketchy in PvE Its not the Best choice for pve raid groups going for score, but its not like it can't hang in Vet Trials either.

@MartiniDaniels Some valid points, but what I think is the PvP portion of your statement I couldn't disagree with more. You don't have to build around that passive for it to be good, it just is a very good added bonus.

This guy talks about it around 2:30 and there are many others who agree as well.

https://youtu.be/ZM8bkh-I0Dc

He is telling "that passive is boost to damage much a lot then previous stealth damage which can be procd only from cloak" and then kills squish with cloak+surprise attack while his hunter's eye is running off

Also he is squish as well, so if that person cloak+surprise attacked him instead of running result maybe quite opposite. Basically he killed potato from cloak and how this proves anything i don't know.

Nodody argues that +2-3% to damage and 10% speed is useful in PVP, but I doubt that this gives any edge above the orc's passives outside of burst, while in PVE this passive is somewhat useful only in VMA/soloing. My post is mostly about fact that no point to build around dodge either then for fun, and bosmer's passive is plain 1500 penetration and speed and nothing more, it can't be exploited or scaled in any way. Well, there is synergy with Senche which provides advantage in counter-attack burst and that's all.

Hand_Bacon · March 2019

He has plenty more videos of non potato kills and any dmg you do and speed you get while it is up is useful. What you described, in your downplay of its effectiveness, was a situation with fixed variables.

When in the history of ESO has cloak and stealth worked perfectly at all times to receive that bonus dmg from stealth?

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

He has plenty more videos of non potato kills and any dmg you do and speed you get while it is up is useful. What you described, in your downplay of its effectiveness, was a situation with fixed variables.

When in the history of ESO has cloak and stealth worked perfectly at all times to receive that bonus dmg from stealth?

I don't doubt this youtuber's skill I'm just saying he puts bad example video for his point. If he roll-dodged to apply off balance and then exploit it will prove something. But he just used stamNBs bread and butter combo 5 seconds after prophylactic roll dodge... btw, 2nd banana in the video is standing AFK half of the encounter and then runs away in unknown direction while youtuber is tea bagging his victim. So it was not 1vX or even 1v2... it was 1v1 between stamblades and obviously youtuber looks like more skilled one. So he won because of skill not because of build or race.

If we talk about bosmer efficiency, Kristofer's videos maybe more representative and he perform some great agile 1vX non-exploit gameplay over there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gRHs4rtFAk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btvHV678kaM

BlueRaven · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

He has plenty more videos of non potato kills and any dmg you do and speed you get while it is up is useful. What you described, in your downplay of its effectiveness, was a situation with fixed variables.

When in the history of ESO has cloak and stealth worked perfectly at all times to receive that bonus dmg from stealth?

I don't doubt this youtuber's skill I'm just saying he puts bad example video for his point. If he roll-dodged to apply off balance and then exploit it will prove something. But he just used stamNBs bread and butter combo 5 seconds after prophylactic roll dodge... btw, 2nd banana in the video is standing AFK half of the encounter and then runs away in unknown direction while youtuber is tea bagging his victim. So it was not 1vX or even 1v2... it was 1v1 between stamblades and obviously youtuber looks like more skilled one. So he won because of skill not because of build or race.

If we talk about bosmer efficiency, Kristofer's videos maybe more representative and he perform some great agile 1vX non-exploit gameplay over there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gRHs4rtFAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btvHV678kaM

Those videos, especially the 2nd one, nicely encapsulates all the reasons I don’t pvp.

KMarble · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I started TG and DB just a few weeks before the event, but got the same feeling you got. More than once I caught myself complaining about this to my (very bored) husband, which was the reason I said a few days ago in this thread that what the devs consider "stealth" is different from what I consider stealth.

Agreed, and it's the timers that change them from stealth quests into speed runs. The sacraments are only slightly better, because you can actually utilize stealth until the 2 minute timer starts, and then it too, becomes just a speed run. The Kari's Hit List quest is a good one: you can take your time and use all aspects of stealth..... including waiting until the right moment, without the pressure of a clock.

The heists, however, are best done just killing everybody and looting everything. I've gotten some pretty nice recipes and furnishing plans from cleaning everything out.

I was thinking about this today and it occurred to me that at some point someone created a true stealth mission in this game. Many of us have been playing it over and over again for the last days, it's the Princess quest in the Jester's Festival.

So, to the person(s) from the dev team who is(are) said to be reading this thread: heists from TG =/= stealth ; Princess quest from JF = stealth.

As a side note, thank you for the tip about recipes and furnishing plans. My main became a thief because of those.

KMarble · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The premise is absurd, too; someone contracts out a job to a job board and then once it is taken can't be bothered to wait an extra 5 minutes?

To me the most absurd part of these so called heists is that we do not know where the objectives are.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Jcarson0408 wrote: »

Not sure if this has been said yet, but if the entire reason they wanted to change it was because khajiit and wood elves had the same racial, but they removed that racial from both of them, so then the reason they wanted to change it no longer exists.

Damage from stealth was removed yes, and it was probably a good thing for PVP. But khajiit saved his stealth radius, while bosmers received useless in PVE detection radius, which is also insufficient in PVP without detection pots and which is arguably overkill with pots..
I think at this point devs regret all this, but they can't just revert changes because on next day there will be 10 threads like this on various topics and each will demand to change something. So now they probably thinking about some hidden solution to this (not of 1st priority of course).

There is nothing wrong with admitting to a mistake and fixing it. It shows maturity and it gathers good will from players.

wedgebert · March 2019

KMarble wrote: »

I was thinking about this today and it occurred to me that at some point someone created a true stealth mission in this game. Many of us have been playing it over and over again for the last days, it's the Princess quest in the Jester's Festival.

So, to the person(s) from the dev team who is(are) said to be reading this thread: heists from TG =/= stealth ; Princess quest from JF = stealth.

As a side note, thank you for the tip about recipes and furnishing plans. My main became a thief because of those.

You mean the quest where you automatically get caught stealing the apples, pay your bounty, then feed them to the pig and run directly through town to turn them in?

Pretty sure stealth isn't used at all during that quest

Jaraal · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I was thinking about this today and it occurred to me that at some point someone created a true stealth mission in this game. Many of us have been playing it over and over again for the last days, it's the Princess quest in the Jester's Festival.

So, to the person(s) from the dev team who is(are) said to be reading this thread: heists from TG =/= stealth ; Princess quest from JF = stealth.

As a side note, thank you for the tip about recipes and furnishing plans. My main became a thief because of those.

You mean the quest where you automatically get caught stealing the apples, pay your bounty, then feed them to the pig and run directly through town to turn them in?

Pretty sure stealth isn't used at all during that quest

Yeah, I just crouch down behind the wagon with my best thief (Khajiit now, unfortunately), and steal the apples when the eye is closed. If bounty, I sprint to guard, use Clemency passive, and I have a 60 seconds of guards looking the other way. So I mount up and ride down as fast as I can, grab the princess, and ride back out of town at top speed, before the Clemency wears off.

If I receive no bounty, I do the exact same thing, without the stop at the guard. So, not a stealth quest for me at all!