ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

@colossalvoids Okay, but how has the detection improved your gameplay? Have you ever noticed that there was an increase to it? Nobody is denying that the overall combat balance is now in a better state than before and that Bosmer got an overall buff in terms of endgame viability. However that is not the point of the thread and not the issue we are complaining about. Even Ibeprofun isn't talking about the stamina regen when he/she said that. The only thing that is getting on all of our nerves is the removal of stealth that is not lore friendly and unjustified by ZOS' own reasoning as well as limiting choice and player freedom. There is also not a lot of actual "hate" to be found here, at least compared to some other threads about combat related issues, just a lot of salt and high blood pressure.
And calling us a "little group" is a bit of a stretch if we have polls like this one supporting our claims that there is indeed an issue to be discussed. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
438 people (currently) asked which new racial changes are disliked the most and 136 people voted Bosmer. Interestingly, the largest dislike ratings are the ones that got changes that are going against established lore/theme of a race. I don't think that putting Imperials and Nords seperate would have changed the results either. Now ask yourself if these 136 forum goers are really just "RPers that were bad at stealth and don't do endgame content anyway" and if they are, why their opinions are worth less than yours.

Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.

Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

That's fair, I'm not taking bonuses to stamina recovery into account. That swings things a little bit in Bosmer's favor, but not by much.

Let's use a common nightblade example of DW/Bow. On the bow bar, you're likely going to be using Endless Hail and Poison Injection, both with durations of 10 seconds. We'll assume that your up time is 100%, sometimes you reapply too early, and others too late, but it works out to 10 seconds. They have a cost of 4051 and 2430 stamina respectively. Modified to 3443 and 2066 by Ranger. That works out to 6481 * 0.85 = 5,509 stamina every 10 seconds. Depending on how the Redguard cost reduction is applied (additive with Ranger, or multiplicative), the new stamina costs are either

6481 * 0.85 * 0.92 = 5068 stamina (a savings of 441)
or
6481 * 0.77 = 4990 stamina (a savings of 519).

So, best cause with just these two skills is saving the equivalent of 88 - 104 stamina recovery. Add that to their base passive that restores 950 every 5 seconds (equal to 380 recovery) and you have 468-484. Take your 90% uptime and you get 421-436. That's practically equal to Bosmer.

If you have any kind of weapon skill spammable the savings from Martial Training will blow Bosmer out of the water. You basically get an extra 160 recovery for every 1000 stamina an ability costs. (Assuming one attack per second, 1000 * 0.08 = 80 stamina saved. Since recovery is per two seconds, 80 * 2 = 160).

But none of that matters, even if Bosmer had demonstrably better sustain or even if they had the worst sustain in the game, this thread is about losing stealth. That's why a lot of us are upset, it's not about DPS, it's about playstyle and lore.

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

I'm a roleplayer. I main a bosmer.

I'm good at stealth and I still want the old stealth passives back. Why? Because these changes not only spit in the face of the lore itself, but because they do create an inconvenience. Even if you are good at stealth, why shouldn't you enjoy passives that enhance your own skill and make stealth gameplay feel even better? Wanting an enhancement does not mean a player is "bad". And even if someone weren't talented at stealth gameplay, why should that make their opinion wrong? Why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy having a passive that makes it easier on them?

Why on earth should someone being good or bad at stealth gameplay be a prerequisite to having an opinion about the passives? Why does someone need to be "good" at something in order for others to consider that desire valid?

"Oh, you only want the passive back because you're bad at stealth" Is just an excuse people use to trivialize the real issue being discussed here.

And from my experience in guilds, many people- not just roleplayers, are irritated about this change, and are following this thread, reading it daily for updates, even if they aren't contributing to it themselves.

Also, not to de-rail, but roleplaying has nothing to do with your skill at playing the game. Why people believe this is beyond me, especially when roleplay requires a considerable amount of skill and mental dexterity in order to come up with replies to situations on the fly as they change from moment to moment. You're juggling complex story lines, trying to stay in-character, while reacting to situations that are, in many cases, not planned in advance. Really, it's the verbal version of doing a dungeon, except you don't get a chance to memorize the mechanics or practice in advance, or watch a youtube video telling you what to expect. In fact many roleplayers go out of their way to refine their ability to play in order to give their characters the reputation they deserve. And even if they don't, their reasons for wanting the passive back are still valid.

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

Maybe we are looking and talking about this the wrong way.....

What if ZoS/ESO is invoking "The right of theft" on our stealth reduction and we must give them something of equal value to acknowledge the prowess they have shown in stealing from us!

max_only wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

Done
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5900346/#Comment_5900346

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. I recommend in future they get get community ambassador to look at non combat gameplay or someone. Also I think they got a lore master as fast as they did because of backlash of bosmers, altmer, and argonian issue. Still these are easily fixable.

Altmer they have given it lore.

The argonian and bosmers have the wrong restiences. So let's swap them

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed. Other option make due on promises to improve stealth in gameplay.

@Tasear Alright, if you say there was a mistake, then I'll believe it and set my expectations accordingly. I heard there was something about the NDA dropping on the 28th, how much of it will be dropped? Will you be able to clear some things up then or are there permanent secrets to be kept? I am not sure if you can even answer that question or this one for that matter, so I guess I'll just have to ask you again after the 28th.

Also, the Altmer change... oh boy, they gave it some "lore". I wish they didn't to be honest. No lore is better than bad lore. When we are talking about Alteration, then any magically attuned race can tap into that kind of power. Whenever they are going to "fix" the "mistake", I hope they take a second look at the Altmer passive and its explaination within the lore.