Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

anadandy · March 2019

Yeah, I fall off enough cliffs in Wrothgar that I'd really miss that fall damage buff

wedgebert · March 2019

Swergdach wrote: »

Acrobatics make sence but NOT the stealth detection. It's just ridiculous to make Bosmer a sentinel. youtu.be/cd4POiGGP3c

Acrobatics makes sense in the same way letting Khajiit be the stealthy race makes sense. Yes, Bosmer are agile and Khajiit are stealthy, but Bomser are more known for stealth and Khajiit more known for agility.

It's not that it's completely unjustified, it's just that we're taking some of each race's best traits and giving them to the other race.

BlueRaven · March 2019

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

wedgebert · March 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

Especially if they spend their time rolling in trees?

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Jaraal · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I feel the fall damage reduction made a lot of sense for a race that primarily lived in trees.

Especially if they spend their time rolling in trees?

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Yeah, I dusted off one of my younger Khajiit thieves yesterday (I have four), and started stealing and picking pockets, and he kept getting caught, just like my Bosmer thief since the patch. I thought, "What the heck.... am I doing something wrong here? Did Khajiit get a stealth nerf, too?" And then it occurred to me that I had yet to re-spend the refunded racials on this character!

A_Silverius · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Razorback174 wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Apparently it would not.

Jaraal · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Would it be possible to get the new loremaster's opinion on this situation?

Apparently it would not.

Well, he's certainly not going to come in here and agree with us, say his employer made a mistake, etc. He will either <remain silent>, or will support the changes.

The employer is always right!

Ratzkifal · March 2019

max_only wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Now I am willing to let the stealthiness originate in a form of a skill tree OUTSIDE of their racials, but that's where I am drawing the line.

I'd honestly draw the line even sooner. No Bosmer stealth racials? No money for ZO$ from me. But I'm probably easier to please when it comes to what kind of stealth buff to give them.

How would you feel if the fall bonus was taken away and replaced with stealth radius reduction instead?

It would probably be a little bit overpowered as a "flavor racial" like the environmental lava damage reduction, swim speed increase etc.
I do like the fall damage reduction because you would expect a race of people living in trees to know how to slow down and safely fall. But I also think that Bosmer are probably better at not falling in the first place than other races.

That being said, if the new detection replaced the 10% fall damage reduction and the old detection radius reduction went into what's now hunter's eye, then I would be happy. However I'm pretty sure there are at least some people out there that like the fall damage reduction just as much as the stealthiness (even though I am not one of them).

Everstorm · March 2019

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

Night_Wolf2112 · March 2019

Everstorm wrote: »

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

[snip]

The customer is not always right when it comes to software/game developers... it not your vision, it's thiers. Get on board or hit them in the pocket book.

[edited for bashing]

wedgebert · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That being said, if the new detection replaced the 10% fall damage reduction and the old detection radius reduction went into what's now hunter's eye, then I would be happy. However I'm pretty sure there are at least some people out there that like the fall damage reduction just as much as the stealthiness (even though I am not one of them).

I like the fall damage reduction, but it's not a defining character trait to me. I doubt anyone was making a character with the concept of "I'll fall of slightly higher things than everyone else"

And it's still more of a Khajiit trait anyways. They're the ones who always had a bonus to acrobatics which is the skill that reduced fall damage.

Razorback174 · March 2019

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Everstorm wrote: »

27 pages, 1 unrelated staff comment.

I just love being taken seriously as a paying customer.

[snip]

The customer is not always right when it comes to software/game developers... it not your vision, it's thiers. Get on board or hit them in the pocket book.

And this is exactly why I'm stepping away from this game.

Balance is one thing, but pushing through lore-shattering racial changes in this manner is another. If they can't even get that right, I have no faith in them anymore. The lore was what built this series. If that gets tossed aside (and it's arguable that it has with this "racial rebalance"), there's no point investing time or money in this game anymore. It just becomes another bland MMO.

If they can't even get the fundamentals like basic racial bonuses correct, who knows what other sorts of lore they will decide change on a whim? Hell, with this sort of mindset, they could make Orcs a magic race overnight, and be selling flying dragon mounts in the crown store by Christmas.

[edited to remove quote]

Jaraal · March 2019

Razorback174 wrote: »

Balance is one thing, but pushing through lore-shattering racial changes in this manner is another. If they can't even get that right, I have no faith in them anymore. The lore was what built this series.

It does seem like they are pushing away the RPers and Elder Scrolls fans away and just trying to make another Half Life2 Deathmatch type of free -for-all PvP game. And they are even nerfing solo and small squad play by discouraging ball groups and killing player speed. It's like they are trying to turn the game into one big PvP rugby scrum snarefest.... all in the interest of reducing server calculations as a way to counter the ever-increasing lag.

Curious that they would be willing to lose players over stuff like this. The forum polls show that the vast majority are against the lore breaking changes: removing stealth from Bosmer, poison resistance from Argonians, fire bonus from Dunmer, etc. And they've known about the backlash since PTS, but still insist on doing the unpopular things anyway. It's not like those things were gamebreakingly overpowered.... so who really knows? And we forum frequenters are but a small percentage of the people who play this game. We can discuss and try to understand these changes, but what about the person who just logs into the game one day and sees "Your racial passive skill points have been refunded" and wonders what the heck is going on?

It's mind-boggling!

FrancisCrawford · March 2019

A_Silverius wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

I'm finding heists and sacraments on my Bosmer to be completely not fun. I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.

wedgebert · March 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

I'm finding heists and sacraments on my Bosmer to be completely not fun. I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.

To be fair though, heists were never that fun from a stealth standpoint. The timer meant it was more "have the path already memorized and use invisibility pots/abilities" than "methodically sneak your way to the goal"

FrancisCrawford · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

I'm finding heists and sacraments on my Bosmer to be completely not fun. I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.

To be fair though, heists were never that fun from a stealth standpoint. The timer meant it was more "have the path already memorized and use invisibility pots/abilities" than "methodically sneak your way to the goal"

So I'm a casual about heists. I zoom right past mobs' noses undetected and even so screw up somewhere and miss the timer. That was still more fun.

Anyhow, I now have a Khajit stamblade thief character named "Grumpy Ex Wood Elf".

max_only · March 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Just did my first "stealth" since the patch and I have to say it feels terrible. I guess I have to go get some sets together because I must have rolled out of a really big tree onto my head and forgot to not say "hi" to everyone I'm trying to sneak by.

Its worse when you get caught between one of those lantern guys and one of the npcs and you get caught, you get removed from stealth, you take a penalty to the time limit and a hefty bounty. With that 3m stealth, bosmers could easily pass by without notice in tight corridors.

I'm finding heists and sacraments on my Bosmer to be completely not fun. I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.

Thankfully I powered through the dlc it once I saw the announcement. The radius reduction helped no doubt. For my one Nightblade character he can just spam cloak more often. It’s my warden hunter that I fear for, he used it the reduction in Vvardenfell a lot.

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

Well, I probably found a place where new passive is good - VMA.
So I took together senche's and nocturnal's favor on my favorite DK WW tank, worked quite easy, even though nocturnal's favor felt like trash in half of arenas, while rocking in other half. And i'm not VMA master at all, it is usually world of pain on my magblade, and here on bosmer ww it was pretty casual, and those extra recovery and speed helps a lot.
Uptime of hunter's eye and senche was ~50% on last boss.

max_only · March 2019

did You detect stealth in vMA?

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

max_only wrote: »

did You detect stealth in vMA?

Nope

I noticed those dremora's going to invisibility for couple of seconds before ambushing, but i can't dispel them at will though they were very close

max_only · March 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

did You detect stealth in vMA?

Nope I noticed those dremora's going to invisibility for couple of seconds before ambushing, but i can't dispel them at will though they were very close

Other than Hunter’s Eye being active in ww, I haven’t noticed a significant difference with my Bosmer, but because of event fatigue I’ve only been playing the bare minimum on my thief/assassin. The rolling and the penetration part of the passive I could take or leave (and I’m glad to see it’s working out well), it’s the detect part that needs changing. We already agree on that though lol

As for the dremora, they are visible at first, then they go invisible with lines radiating from them to prepare you to block correct? This is not a mechanic that is affected by the passive. Further proof that there aren’t any pve enemies we could use it on.

Jaraal · March 2019

max_only wrote: »

did You detect stealth in vMA?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nope

It's got to be there somewhere!

Keep looking!

wedgebert · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

did You detect stealth in vMA?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nope

It's got to be there somewhere!

Keep looking!

Are you now saying that Bosmer need "Improved Stealth Detection Detection"?

Ratzkifal · March 2019

I was doing the heists on my Imperial. It may just be my imagination but you can feel the 3% reduced sneak cost (could also be my CP, but I think I put most points into block cost reduction there to reach 75 for the treasure hunter perk). But that's pretty much it.
I can get farther, but I am so easily detected that I need invisibility pots and gear if I haven't memorized the "perfect route" every time. The sacraments aren't very different in that regard, but at least you can kill all the witnesses to make it easier to stay undetected the whole time.
I wish I could do this on my Bosmer like I used to.

max_only · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I was doing the heists on my Imperial. It may just be my imagination but you can feel the 3% reduced sneak cost (could also be my CP, but I think I put most points into block cost reduction there to reach 75 for the treasure hunter perk). But that's pretty much it.
I can get farther, but I am so easily detected that I need invisibility pots and gear if I haven't memorized the "perfect route" every time. The sacraments aren't very different in that regard, but at least you can kill all the witnesses to make it easier to stay undetected the whole time.
I wish I could do this on my Bosmer like I used to.

I might change one character to Imperial just for this.... it’s painful to think about though.

Everstorm · March 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I'm going to either change him to a Khajit or just stop doing event stuff.

Yeah, I caved, my Stamblade is now a cat. She does a very cute "ja ja" when making her mount sprint so it's not all bad. I do notice the reduced stamina regeneration. And I very much miss the reduced falling damage, which also feels so dumb when changing to a cat.
ESO+ was already paid till June so plenty of time to make up my mind if I want to continue spending money on this game. Wonder if they are actually going to do something with that half vague promise from class the reps meeting.

OsManiaC · March 2019

First time from my side that I cannot get full rewards -- too many alerted / dropped time.

Oh I can detect the stealth mode NPCs.. if there are any..

I really would like to talk with the related person who thought this passive needs to be changed. What was he/she talking about?

A_Silverius · March 2019

OsManiaC wrote: »

I really would like to talk with the related person who thought this passive needs to be changed. What was he/she talking about?

According to the developer's comments on the changes regarding Wood Elves: "Since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead."

And then we got stealth detection.

Jaraal · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

did You detect stealth in vMA?

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Nope

It's got to be there somewhere!

Keep looking!

Are you now saying that Bosmer need "Improved Stealth Detection Detection"?

Yes, because clearly NPC stealth is overpowered! Maybe all those times I fell out of the tree as a little kid and whacked my head without dying scrambled my detective abilities? That could explain why we Bosmer can't see all those stealthy, hidden little skeevers running across our path and tripping us up, making us roll around like drunken clowns everywhere!