Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

AngelFires333

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

AngelFires333 wrote: »

I'm still a little confused on the % change to numbers for stam.
Have we got a buff to both stam regen and max stam, or one or the other?

Max stam the same for your typical build. Virtually increased by changes to food, but changes to food apply to all races.
Stamina regen considerably increased for pve stam dps. Remained the same for stam recovery stacked PVP builds.
Stealth, disease resistance and damage from sneak gone for roll-dodge passive.
Stealth detection is not a passive and it's not a bonus and not even a free incentive card in supermarket. It's just useless thing which ZOS didn't know where to place, and since bosmer "box" looked emptier then others, it came it was placed there.

Thank you folks.
I will miss the stealth bonus no doubt about it. Seems to be quite an uproar in regards to it.
Here's crossing fingers they listen.

AngelFires333

I blame Trump.

Seraphayel

BlueRaven wrote: »

Here is what Alcast has to say about;

"Stamina Damage Dealer

Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most."

https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

So the recommendation is to choose basically ANY other Stam based race outside of Imperial for a Stamina damage dealer.

So yes we got a dps boost, was it enough? Apparently not.
We still lag behind the other Stam races, but now the racial we made a bosmer for (aka The FUN racial)is gone.

And we are supposed to be grateful for this?

You are still better than before. Grateful? No. But maybe appreciate that your DPS potential has been improved.

And Alcast is a min-maxer, speaking for maybe 1% of the playerbase when it comes to that. So when he says "best choice" it means basically nothing because none of us (99%) plays on his level or is capable of his flawless execution. So long before racials would reduce our DPS our lackluster weaving skills / timing would come into play.

wedgebert

Seraphayel wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Did the race changes go live yet for consoles?

All those Bosmer get gutted tomorrow (March 12)

Actually they'll be improved and only their stealth capabilities nerfed down to the level of every other race in game except Khajiit. The Bosmer DPS buff is more meaningful and important than keeping the stealth passive. They could have kept both without a problem but to say Bosmer didn't generally benefit by the changes is nonsense.

Except they're being outperformed by Orcs in every measure. Even by the measure of Orcs have three useful passive skills while Bosmer have two useful and one that lowers DPS if you try to use it on purpose.

We can go back to the U20 Bosmer racials where Orcs would outperform even more but they can stealth a bit better. Deal? Guess not.

So yes, Orcs might be better in that regard but Bosmer have become way better for Stamina DPS in this update which often gets ignored by the crowd that complains about the stealth passive removal.

I would be fine if we went back to the U20 racials (or whatever version they keep, flat bonuses instead of percentages) if we got stealth back. I'm a Bosmer because I like playing a sneak thief Bosmer, not because I'm chasing the meta.

We play this game because we like the idea of playing in the Elder Scrolls universe. Bosmers with no stealth (or even bow bonuses), Argonians who can't resist poison (despite it being mentioned in multiple quests), Altmer who regenerate stamina, etc, these are all lore breaking things that, while not major in an of themselves, make the game less and less Elder Scrolls Online and more a facade that just uses similar nomenclature.

If they don't respect some of the foundational lore, where does it end? Is gnome going to be added as a playable race? Or maybe weapon enchants will just be changed to +5/10/15 damage or +4/8/12 fire damage because "it's easier to balance". Elder Scrolls lore is something that sets it apart from most other fantasy worlds. It's not stock Tolkien and that adds flavor to the world. They should work on making these racial balancing fit within the lore, not butcher the lore and still not accomplish much.

BlueRaven

Seraphayel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Here is what Alcast has to say about;

"Stamina Damage Dealer

Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most."

https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

So the recommendation is to choose basically ANY other Stam based race outside of Imperial for a Stamina damage dealer.

So yes we got a dps boost, was it enough? Apparently not.
We still lag behind the other Stam races, but now the racial we made a bosmer for (aka The FUN racial)is gone.

And we are supposed to be grateful for this?

You are still better than before. Grateful? No. But maybe appreciate that your DPS potential has been improved.

And Alcast is a min-maxer, speaking for maybe 1% of the playerbase when it comes to that.

If it was a true min-max recommendation they would have chosen ONE race, they chose four. Four races as better choices for Stamina dps.
That means the most optimistic way of looking at the recommendations is that maybe Bosmers are fifth. Maybe.
And still the whole reason to roll a bosmer for in the first place, gone.

Cundu_Ertur

Bosmer are defined as a race by three things. The Green Pact, their skill with archery, and their stealth. In the previous iteration of racial passives these were reflected or at least alluded to in their racials: disease resistance reflected the meat mandate (obligate carnivores typically have more robust disease resistance), the stealth bonus obviously reflected stealth, and even the bonus to learning bow faster reflected their talent with archery. No race had a bonus to bow skills or damage at that point. However now absolutely none of these things is true. No disease resistance. No stealth. Orcs and Dunmer get a bonus to damage with bows, Redguards and Imperials get cheaper bow skills.

There are, quite literally, no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.

wedgebert

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

: disease resistance reflected the meat mandate (obligate carnivores typically have more robust disease resistance),

Don't forget we also like to make drinks out of fermented meat. That's gotta count for some stronger white blood cells too.

Koronach

I stand by the Bosmer players, ZoS completely failed at Goal #5 "Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling." Yeah now about Bosmer not having stealth, disease resistance, and better bow skills. Argonians not having poison resistance, and making Argonians mainly healers while ignoring the rest of the races lore aspects. Not a fan of my passives but poison resistance is actual in game lore for my race, so yeah.

Eiron77

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Bosmer are defined as a race by three things. The Green Pact, their skill with archery, and their stealth. In the previous iteration of racial passives these were reflected or at least alluded to in their racials: disease resistance reflected the meat mandate (obligate carnivores typically have more robust disease resistance), the stealth bonus obviously reflected stealth, and even the bonus to learning bow faster reflected their talent with archery. No race had a bonus to bow skills or damage at that point. However now absolutely none of these things is true. No disease resistance. No stealth. Orcs and Dunmer get a bonus to damage with bows, Redguards and Imperials get cheaper bow skills.

There are, quite literally, no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.

I've been thinking this for awhile. Might as well just get rid of Bosmers at this point and call them Snow Elves instead, to please all those people that always ask for them.

Edit: Removed old draft i didn't get time to complete. Whoops,lol.

Jaraal

Eiron77 wrote: »

And I think I wanted to characterize what the perception is of bosmers and not the actual numbers right now. And to be honest the sample size (our trial group) is small. But this was the prevailing thought in the group, that I was making it harder on myself for playing a Bosmer.

Hey @BlueRaven we get what you're saying by now. And yeah, "hounding" probably was too strong a word.

But the bolded, quoted above is pro

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Bosmer are defined as a race by three things. The Green Pact, their skill with archery, and their stealth. In the previous iteration of racial passives these were reflected or at least alluded to in their racials: disease resistance reflected the meat mandate (obligate carnivores typically have more robust disease resistance), the stealth bonus obviously reflected stealth, and even the bonus to learning bow faster reflected their talent with archery. No race had a bonus to bow skills or damage at that point. However now absolutely none of these things is true. No disease resistance. No stealth. Orcs and Dunmer get a bonus to damage with bows, Redguards and Imperials get cheaper bow skills.

There are, quite literally, no Bosmer at all in this game anymore.

I've been thinking this for awhile. Might as well just get rid of Bosmers at this point and call them Snow Elves instead, to please all those people that always ask for them.

More like Falmer, actually. Give me my pet chaurus and we'll go protect Tamriel from the threat of hidden stealth, wherever it may be.

Ratzkifal

Btw, it's not like Alcast doesn't recommend Bosmer. That famous quote, I think he just forgot to put them there but he does think that Bosmer are a valid option.
If my memory doesn't betray me, then Bosmer even out-perform Redguard sustain in some cases (stamblade?).

Seraphayel wrote: »

You are still better than before. Grateful? No. But maybe appreciate that your DPS potential has been improved.

@Seraphayel "You are still better than before" is not an argument. The entire issue is more nuanced than "better" and "worse" can express alone. Imagine balancing two races and giving one passives like Orcs have (that boost the dps by say 20% in total) and then giving the other race a line that reads "this character deals 20% more damage". It's both balanced but one option feels really bland despite being "better than before".
Taking away the foundation in lore of these passives, by cutting stealth from them completely, makes these passives feel like arbitrary numbers that are just meant to shut people up who made the mistake of choosing Bosmer. Slap a niche dodgeroll passive and detection onto it that nobody else has and call it "unique" and "of universal use" and you have the current state of Bosmer in U21.
Before Bosmer were BiS for anything - by that I mean back when the gap was larger - people only picked Bosmer because of their lore, their stealth and being cute/prefered over Khajiit or perhaps to have one character of each race. If you wanted stealth before, you could have always gone with Khajiit as well so the deciding factor for picking a Bosmer has always been cuteness/not being a cat or their lore. If you remove this core identity (stealth) from Bosmer, you will make a lot of people upset about this and a race change token won't do it for people that picked Bosmer because they didn't feel like being Khajiit.

If ZOS failed to fulfill their own goals in this update, then there is nothing to be grateful about in the context of Bosmer changes, despite DPS improvements.

And yes, I am aware that I am probably using more hyperbole than necessary and that I am being very salty about this, but ZOS should not trample on things that are important to paying customers when there is no harm in not doing so.

Ogou

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

AngelFires333 wrote: »

I'm still a little confused on the % change to numbers for stam.
Have we got a buff to both stam regen and max stam, or one or the other?

Max stam the same for your typical build. Virtually increased by changes to food, but changes to food apply to all races.
Stamina regen considerably increased for pve stam dps. Remained the same for stam recovery stacked PVP builds.
Stealth, disease resistance and damage from sneak gone for roll-dodge passive.
Stealth detection is not a passive and it's not a bonus and not even a free incentive card in supermarket. It's just useless thing which ZOS didn't know where to place, and since bosmer "box" looked emptier then others, it came it was placed there.

I am convinced more than ever that the reason why bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. That is it.

And since they had to have something with the word "stealth" in it for Bosmers, they gave us stealth detection instead. It was a quick and lazy change, and I think it shows the rather disinterest the devs had for Bosmers in designing their racials.

They literally said it:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. [snip]. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

wedgebert

And if you break that down

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. [snip]. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

They kept the Khajiit portion of the passive and completely removed the Bosmer portion, replacing it with a near-useless pen bonus and a stealth detect bonus that doesn't detect stealth.

Even what ZOS_Gilliam said right there doesn't make sense from a mechanical standpoint. 100% of the new passive is new mechanics for any race (and is more lore thematic with Khajiit).

Nor do Bosmer feel distinct from any race because our 3rd passive is even more useless than the Altmer Spell Recharge.

I swear everytime I look at Hunter's Eye I find a new level of awfulness. This post's discovery is that in PvP I can spend ~3000 stamina to reduce the Nords' rugged passive by a whole 37% (from 3960 to 2460)

I mean seriously, I know these passives aren't meant to be game breakers or anything, but Hunter's Eye might as well be "Spend 10% of your stamina and throw a handful of feathers at your opponent in the hopes that they are too surprised to react"

Seriously, if this trait was 100% broken, I don't think anybody would notice. Maybe the lack of speed would be a clue, but I'm sure Hasty Retreat is overriding it in many situations.

Proposed New Hunter's Eye description:
Level 1: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 1
Level 2: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 2
Level 3: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 3

Ratzkifal

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

AngelFires333 wrote: »

I'm still a little confused on the % change to numbers for stam.
Have we got a buff to both stam regen and max stam, or one or the other?

Max stam the same for your typical build. Virtually increased by changes to food, but changes to food apply to all races.
Stamina regen considerably increased for pve stam dps. Remained the same for stam recovery stacked PVP builds.
Stealth, disease resistance and damage from sneak gone for roll-dodge passive.
Stealth detection is not a passive and it's not a bonus and not even a free incentive card in supermarket. It's just useless thing which ZOS didn't know where to place, and since bosmer "box" looked emptier then others, it came it was placed there.

I am convinced more than ever that the reason why bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. That is it.

And since they had to have something with the word "stealth" in it for Bosmers, they gave us stealth detection instead. It was a quick and lazy change, and I think it shows the rather disinterest the devs had for Bosmers in designing their racials.

They literally said it:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. [snip]. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Even worse. They kept nothing of the Bosmer stealth passive. Not one bit. It's as if they had completely removed magicka from Altmer because Bretons were also having a magic focus. It's not fair, it's not well-thoughtout and it's a spit in the face of 20 years of lore.
Considering that Orcs get 10% bonus speed all the time when sprinting while Bosmer have to dodgeroll (and lose stamina) to get a temporary boost with the full sprint cost, then you'll realize that they don't even excell at the only thing that makes them unique. "Oh but you don't have to sprint to get the 10%!" Okay, but would that actually still be useful if your only advantage is to walk slower than you could?

BlueRaven

wedgebert wrote: »

And if you break that down

I mean seriously, I know these passives aren't meant to be game breakers or anything, but Hunter's Eye might as well be "Spend 10% of your stamina and throw a handful of feathers at your opponent in the hopes that they are too surprised to react"

Great now I have to explain to a room full of people who have no idea what ESO is or what Bosmers are, why I suddenly bursted out laughing.

tyggerbob

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. [snip]. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

If that argument is valid, why do both Imperials and Redguards get a 2K Stamina bonus? Surely we would want to have them distinct from one another?

Imperial: Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Redguard: Conditioning: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

What's good for the Redguard goose is good for the Bosmer gander, in my mind.
Sorry.. I like Gilliam and all, but that's straight up guar pucky..

anadandy

tyggerbob wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. [snip]. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

If that argument is valid, why do both Imperials and Redguards get a 2K Stamina bonus? Surely we would want to have them distinct from one another?

Imperial: Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
Redguard: Conditioning: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

What's good for the Redguard goose is good for the Bosmer gander, in my mind.
Sorry.. I like Gilliam and all, but that's straight up guar pucky..

It's all guar pucky. The other gem was this:

Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead.

Except they didn't. They built it into Khajiit passives (Feline Ambush) but Bosmer got saddled with Stealth Detection which directly contradicts the "since sneaking isn't a universal mechanic" reason. Stealth detection is even less of a universal mechanic - they even admit it - nothing sneaks in PVE.

Jaraal

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

AngelFires333 wrote: »

I'm still a little confused on the % change to numbers for stam.
Have we got a buff to both stam regen and max stam, or one or the other?

Max stam the same for your typical build. Virtually increased by changes to food, but changes to food apply to all races.
Stamina regen considerably increased for pve stam dps. Remained the same for stam recovery stacked PVP builds.
Stealth, disease resistance and damage from sneak gone for roll-dodge passive.
Stealth detection is not a passive and it's not a bonus and not even a free incentive card in supermarket. It's just useless thing which ZOS didn't know where to place, and since bosmer "box" looked emptier then others, it came it was placed there.

I am convinced more than ever that the reason why bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. That is it.

And since they had to have something with the word "stealth" in it for Bosmers, they gave us stealth detection instead. It was a quick and lazy change, and I think it shows the rather disinterest the devs had for Bosmers in designing their racials.

They literally said it:

Considering that Orcs get 10% bonus speed all the time when sprinting while Bosmer have to dodgeroll (and lose stamina) to get a temporary boost with the full sprint cost, then you'll realize that they don't even excell at the only thing that makes them unique. "Oh but you don't have to sprint to get the 10%!" Okay, but would that actually still be useful if your only advantage is to walk slower than you could?

So essentially, Bosmer "speed" passive should read: Burn x amount of stamina to dodge roll and go 10% faster, while every other race can burn the same amount of stamina and go 30% faster by sprinting.


Wow, this is getting worse by the day!

tyggerbob

And sorry. I've trademarked "guar pucky®"
LOL

wedgebert

Jaraal wrote: »

So essentially, Bosmer "speed" passive should read: Burn x amount of stamina to dodge roll and go 10% faster, while every other race can burn the same amount of stamina and go 30% faster by sprinting.

Wow, this is getting worse by the day!

Technically, I think the 10% bonus would affect sprinting as well, so we'd still go faster. It's just we'd get tired more quickly because we burned way more stamina rolling than we'd have spent sprinting for 6 seconds.

Also, Orcs get a permanent 10% sprint speed buff so they'd be able to keep up with us. And they get a 12% sprint cost reduction, so after we're on the side of the road gasping for breath (cause you know, stamina race), they'd be way down the road laughing.

Eiron77

Proposed New Hunter's Eye description:
Level 1: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 1
Level 2: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 2
Level 3: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 3

I've been trying to tell ZOS this fact for a couple months now that Hunters Eye=3 free skill points.

But this racial description is the most accurate I've seen so far.

Eiron77

More like Falmer, actually. Give me my pet chaurus and we'll go protect Tamriel from the threat of hidden stealth, wherever it may be.

Might actually have been their plan all along.

tyggerbob

Eiron77 wrote: »

More like Falmer, actually. Give me my pet chaurus and we'll go protect Tamriel from the threat of hidden stealth, wherever it may be.

Might actually have been their plan all along.

Yeah.. Falmer can detect you with no sight. maybe that's what that passive is for?

Eiron77

tyggerbob wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

More like Falmer, actually. Give me my pet chaurus and we'll go protect Tamriel from the threat of hidden stealth, wherever it may be.

Might actually have been their plan all along.

Yeah.. Falmer can detect you with no sight. maybe that's what that passive is for?

And the rest of Hunters Eye is confirmed for Falmer here: "Although a typical Falmer may appear small and emaciated, they can be surprisingly quick on their feet and deliver quick, powerful blows." https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Falmer

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert wrote: »

Proposed New Hunter's Eye description:
Level 1: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 1
Level 2: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 2
Level 3: Spend one skill point to reduce your available skill points by 3

It's certainly more accurate than what's there now.

Eiron77 wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

More like Falmer, actually. Give me my pet chaurus and we'll go protect Tamriel from the threat of hidden stealth, wherever it may be.

Might actually have been their plan all along.

Yeah.. Falmer can detect you with no sight. maybe that's what that passive is for?

And the rest of Hunters Eye is confirmed for Falmer here: "Although a typical Falmer may appear small and emaciated, they can be surprisingly quick on their feet and deliver quick, powerful blows." https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Falmer

Told you there's no Bosmer anymore. We've found the Falmer and they is us.

Tasear

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Alaya wrote: »

You can't even buy the tickets yet: those come at the end of the month.

I miss my stealthy bosmer, the 3m detection bonus simply isn't worth anything, not even in PvP where you can use much better skills to find players. By the time you see the players, they're already on top of you, so what's the point?

The dodge roll is iffy. I've been utilizing it as I do dungeons and quests in DLC, but it's not an easy thing to use in a lot of places honestly.

Everything else they've given us is okay, we can live with it, but I really wish they'd revert their change to stealth instead of giving us another useless passive.

I'm sure many of you remember when they gave us that fall damage reduction. Guess this means we can just roll ourselves off cliffs faster.

What if they increased the range?

It could be 3 miles and it would still be completely useless in PVE. And it still isn't what Bosmer are about.

Fair point

Archmadios

While I do not play a Bosmer (I’m an argonian lover) I fully support you all in your campaign. All races shol be something unique

Jeremiah12LGeek

I appreciate the effort you guys made to fix this problem before it affected console players. I'm sad that you didn't succeed.

I'm uninstalling and returning ESO. My favourite characters are ruined, and I don't want to play the game anymore. I had no idea this was coming, but I doubt knowing about it would have changed anything.

This was a terrible change. It was pointless, and ruining my favourite characters accomplished nothing except making me quit the game.

Seraphayel

ZOS is not going to give you stealth back. They seem content with their plans and removing the Bosmer stealth passive was one of them.

I know you are complaining for two months now and you're mostly right but it's time to move on and get over it. I know I will get bombarded with comments how dare I saying this but this is just the truth and reality.

Get used to your new Bosmer, they were changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

Cundu_Ertur

Seraphayel wrote: »

ZOS is not going to give you stealth back. They seem content with their plans and removing the Bosmer stealth passive was one of them.

I know you are complaining for two months now but it's time to move on and get over it. I know I will get bombarded with comments how dare I saying this but this is just the truth and reality. Get used to your new Bosmer, they changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

They.
Are.
Not.
Bosmer.

Unless you can come up with ANY lore to support Bosmer being the 5th best archers in all of Tamriel, and best suited to being guards with not the slightest aptitude for thievery (which, spoiler alert, you can't do) then we are WELL within our rights to continue to agitate for this abomination to be undone. This isn't just about this one game, it is about 25 years of Elder Scrolls. This was a garbage change. It is a garbage change. It will never stop being a garbage change.