Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Uryel

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

Same thing. I re-geared entirely yesterday evening. I had done my research beforehand, so it was rather quick. Costed me 250k, roughtly, since I was short on quite alot of materials, but hey, what good is sleeping on a gold pile ? Especially considering that lots of this gold came from someone elses' pockets. Lots of someones, actually.

So, prior to this update, I was running with a full set of Night Mother's Embrace, a full set of Night Silence, and the weapons were Shacklebreaker (for the +weapon damage bonus). 5 / 5 / 2 setup. This was giving me +2 m stealth bonus (for a total of +5), no movement penalty in stealth, and somewhat decent combat potential.

Now, I run a full set of Night Mother's Embrace (+2m), a 3 parts set of Night Terror (+2m), which gives me a total of +4m bonus to stealth. That's not as good as before, but it's still decent. Barely, though. In tight hallways, I can notice a difference. even 1m radius is a major difference, and the lack of mobility doesn't help either. Having the stealth movement penalty gives more time to the enemies to detect you. When moving faster, you also have slightly less chances to be detected. Back before the patch, I used to sneak as my default movement option. That didn't slow me down. Now... Well, that would be sluggish AF.

Since there is no way to get the penalty removed by gear with only the 4 slots left, I went for Morkuldin. More stamina, stamina regen and weapon damage. Since I'll have to fight more, might as well improve efficiency a bit. I did keep all my old gear in a chest in my home, though. Who knows, maybe I'll get to use it again some day. When ZOS comes to their senses...

I even tested the new gear with that PvP skill that grants major expedition for a while. It's better, but not quite as fast as not having the penalty. I'm still testing my options there. Morphing one of my skills to its magicka version could provide +25% speed in stealth, so that would be close to before the patch, and with major expedition, might even be a tad bit faster. At the cost of gimping my most powerful combat skill and a huge cost in stamina to keep the buff up. Vampire might help, but it doesn't bring much to the character besides the removal of sneak penalty at stage 4, and I don't really wish to look like I fell from the ugly tree and hit all the branches on the way down ALL THE TIME.

So... As anticipated, that patch has severely impacted stealthy galmeplay. Still doable, but with major drawbacks and less efficiency.

Ratzkifal

Couldn't they have at least made it so that dodgerolling doesn't get you out of stealth on a Bosmer? Then we could at least benefit from that while sneaking. Q_Q

ZOS_RikardD

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anadandy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Couldn't they have at least made it so that dodgerolling doesn't get you out of stealth on a Bosmer? Then we could at least benefit from that while sneaking. Q_Q

There is so much they could have done that would have been respectful of Bosmer stealth identity if they were bound and determined to remove the stealth bonus - many of which were suggested. But instead they shoehorned in that stealth detect with a blithe "And now we wave a magic wand and instead of being stealthy your identity is now detecting stealthed enemies!"

Then stuck their fingers into their ears when we all went "But....nothing stealths in PVE...."

I'm just glad I got all my fish and skyshards from Cyro while I had the chance.

Tomg999

When they produced two DLCs in a row that were stealth, I was like, OK, cool. It's like Thief II days again.
I figured stealth was an important part of the game, and got into it. My super stealthy Bosmer with all the cool sets can (could) be almost invisible, take safeboxes at will, loot desks while folks sat at them.

Now I guess they've changed their minds.....kitty cats are the next big thing.

Tornaad

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

Cundu_Ertur

Zuboko wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

Spoiler: No. No, they don't.

Sypherioth

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

MartiniDaniels

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

Because when people created bosmer character, they suggested that it will be a thief/assassin of sort and not a roll-dodge acrobat.
Not everybody selects race for the numbers.

Aela_Dragonrider

Okay, I've done some more testing in-game and these are my conclusions on the loss of the 3m stealth:

Lara had on full sets of both Night's Silence and Night' Mothers (3 pieces + bow for each. She'd enter sneak with full Night's Silence and then swap weapons for full Night Mother's), same as she had before the patch.

She made the rounds of Elden Root with almost no noticeable change in difficulty. Ditto for Wayrest castle and a few other spots. Though looting the 'basement' room in the castle was harder.

She then entered several private homes in Wayrest and she had a VERY hard time straying undetected. Never got a bounty for trespassing but those interiors are so small that she had effectively no room for error. One or two she even left without grabbing the strongbox because the NPCs were so hard to avoid.

She tried a few delves. Again, definitely trickier than before. Corridors are tight and rooms either small or cluttered, giving little margin for error. She flopped hard at staying hidden in Vinedusk (got a swarm of spriggans on her tail and had to unleash ww to escape), though did a little better in a few others.

Then Lara did some more thieving. There was this one object she tried to grab in a mages guild, but a mage was walking nearby that saw her twice, once when I swear she was far enough away that if Lara still had that extra 3m, she wouldn't have seen a thing. Had to time it so Lara grabbed the loot as the mage walked away from her.

To sum up: A lot of the time, the loss in stealth radius is of little to no consequence. A Bosmer thief will function about as well as before. HOWEVER...once they start entering 'higher-risk' area like crowded markets, narrow delve corridors, small rooms with more than one NPC that loss WILL be felt acutely as they now have less margin for error.

In addition, even though Lara almost never got caught today, sneaking around with her felt 'off'. I found myself worrying more about where NPCs were and how they were walking and how far away from X I'd have to be to not be seen. It felt like those times I was sneaking around with my Nord main, who was not geared for stealth at the time, in one of the Vvardenfell plot lines. Not like how stealth used to feel with Lara before the patch, when she was just zipping about like crazy, thumbing her nose at everything. It just didn't feel quite as fun.

Zuboko wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

Yeah. For casual thieving/sneaking, not much change. But, when you really need it, you don't. I'm too attached to Lara to change her and the impact of the change isn't terrible but it does feel that something is missing.

Tornaad

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Zuboko wrote: »

I did not think I would miss the Stealth perk, but now that I have had a chance to play after the patch went live, I realize just how badly I miss it.

Yes, it's definitely noticeable in some of the tighter corridors - off the top of my head I'm thinking the public dungeon in Summerset. There is that narrow pathway with the annoying chameleons - that yes, I could totally kill in two shots, but it's faster to slip past them and just grab the things I needed for the daily. The daily that is the only way to get Calunda Lacquer to make either Alinor Furnishings or Gold - depending on how you roll.

I'll survive, my Bosmer is not "unplayable" but it does impact my gameplay. So - feh.

I agree, the change is by no means game breaking. It is annoying, and in all truth it is not annoying enough … yet ... for me to consider redoing my character. I just really want my stealth perk back.
I think it is too early for me to tell if I think the other changes will balance out the loss of stealth or not.

Spoiler: No. No, they don't.

Thank you for your concern. I may keep it in mind as I come to my own conclusion.

Cundu_Ertur

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

A_Silverius

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

Because we enjoy the stealth gameplay particularly in pve. I don't know why its so hard for people to understand that.

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Reason is that they needed somebody to counter gankers in PVP. So ZOS decided that best solution is to turn gank race to anti-gank race and also updated sentry set to show the way. Lore.. obviously persons who are responsible for balance don't care about lore much, they just need racial passives system which is easier to balance and which meets their vision of PVP.

Cundu_Ertur

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Reason is that they needed somebody to counter gankers in PVP. So ZOS decided that best solution is to turn gank race to anti-gank race and also updated sentry set to show the way. Lore.. obviously persons who are responsible for balance don't care about lore much, they just need racial passives system which is easier to balance and which meets their vision of PVP.

Then it still fails because it is a stupid reason, and not a good reason. Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

So, no. There's no good reason just a dumb, ill-conceived, and poorly implemented excuse for a reason. And if this was truly the reason, why leave the hiding bonus on the Khajiit (actually, don't forget Khajiit got a 2m INCREASE to their hiding bonus at first) and additional crit damage?

If they wanted to give a race a counter-stealth ability, it should have been Orcs (who counter both Khajiit and Bosmer) who are described in the lore (ESO specific lore, at that) as being both very annoyed by people in stealth around them and very good at seeing said people. At least the Wood Orc tribes.

MartiniDaniels

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Reason is that they needed somebody to counter gankers in PVP. So ZOS decided that best solution is to turn gank race to anti-gank race and also updated sentry set to show the way. Lore.. obviously persons who are responsible for balance don't care about lore much, they just need racial passives system which is easier to balance and which meets their vision of PVP.

Then it still fails because it is a stupid reason, and not a good reason. Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

So, no. There's no good reason just a dumb, ill-conceived, and poorly implemented excuse for a reason. And if this was truly the reason, why leave the hiding bonus on the Khajiit (actually, don't forget Khajiit got a 2m INCREASE to their hiding bonus) and additional crit damage?

If they wanted to give a race a counter-stealth ability, it should have been Orcs (who counter both Khajiit and Bosmer) who are described in the lore (ESO specific lore, at that) as being both very annoyed by people in stealth around them and very good at seeing said people. At least the Wood Orc tribes.

Well, it's extra damage from stealth was issue about bosmers, not a stealth radius. And increased damage gone on both races. High crit-pvp builds are very unstable one.. cool to kill lazy pve-ers which came to farm AP in pve gear, but rather weak against persons in full impen.. and majority of gankers were bosmers.. and Elsweyr which will be most popular among khajiit mains so it was rather obvious choice to sacrifice bosmers "for PVP balance sake".

A_Silverius

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

Ratzkifal

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

@Sypherioth It's quite apparent you didn't read most of the thread and with 11 pages, nobody can blame you for that. Our biggest concern is not the 10% damage from stealth, it's the removal of the detection radius reduction which goes against the theme of the race and ZOS own goals.
Most of us here would be fine with the racials as they are if they simply gave Bosmer the reduced detection radius back because stealth is a core aspect of the woodelfs only second to archery maybe. This update turned Bosmer from thieves into guards and that's stupid.

Swergdach

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Then it still fails because it is a stupid reason, and not a good reason. Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

And here comes the Khajiit, which sells crown crates, unobtrusively offers you to buy Adventurer Pack from Crown Store.
(͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)

Uryel

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I don't care about sustain, I have enough for what I do in the game. Way enough. Even though, for some reason I can't even begin to fathom, my Nord stam sorcerer tank with no gear bonus to stam regen has about 100 more stam regen than my Bosmer with both racial bonus and 2 +stamregen occurences on her gear.

I'm pretty sure I don't have more total stamina, either. Percentage are WAY more powerful when you are well specialised. Flat value are a pretty cool incentive to avoid minmaxing, but if you had enough base stamina, percentages were better. And since I was sneaking all the time, I had planned accordingly and had a sh*t ton of base stamina.

No one here is talking about the extra damage when attacking from stealth. Litterally nobody. We don't care.

Nightblades ? Sure, I do play a nightblade stamina Bosmer. But stealth doesn't equal nightblade. I also have a stealthy Warden, for instance. She's an Imperial, by the way, so she's even more stealthy than a Bosmer now, since the cost reduction applies to stealth. Bosmers don't even have that.

Simply put, no one in this thread or anywhere else advocating for the return of stealth to the Bosmers cares for combat stats, numbers, damage and whatnot. We care that our favourite gameplay mechanic, sneaking around while being nigh invisible, has been forcefully ripped from us after several years of character developpement.

And stealth wasn't even replaced by something useful. It was replaced by stealth detection, which has no use whatsoever in PvE since stealthed enemies don't even exist. That ability has no use at all in PvE, and from what I am told (I don't do PVp), only marginal use in PvP. That also makes the Bosmers the only race to have a non-flavour passive that has no use in PvE.

So... As you can see, numbers and combat prowess isn't what we care about here. We want our gameplay back, simple as that.

Uryel

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

For casual thieving/sneaking, not much change. But, when you really need it, you don't. I'm too attached to Lara to change her and the impact of the change isn't terrible but it does feel that something is missing

My thought exactly. I've been playing Maeligh for almost 4 years. She escaped Coldharbour, then returned to kick Molag's balls. She completed all the silly challenges of Sir Cadwell. She became a master crafter in all the 9 crafts. She's well respected by both mages and fighters guild. She's friend with the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' guild.

Or rather, I am. But I did all that with her. She's not changing into a cat. Nothing wrong with Khajiits, I absolutely adore the race's lore. I just can't see myself playing one, even less so if the change was not wanted but "needed" to retain my gameplay, and even LESS so if that meant losing my favorite character's identity.

Every single costume I bought, every single house I have decorated (and that includes the Colossal Aldmeri Grotto, quite a hefty sum of crowns I spent for that one !), was with her as my main character in mind. She's not changing. But something is definetely amiss.

Cundu_Ertur

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Sypherioth wrote: »

I realy dont understand whats to complain? You got way more sustain as before with bosmer. You got more stam as before with bosmer. Im sure this is better then the out of stealth extra dmg. Btw its better that this is class only. Don't want other class to have stealth dmg benefits while NB is the supposed stealth class. Also this racial gave NB a bit to much power from stealth.

I started playing with Morrowind with a Bosmer. Not the ESO Morrowind chapter, but TES III Morrowind. Bosmer were stealthy archers, with the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Oblivion, twice -- once on PS3, again on PC; again as a Bosmer. Bosmer had the biggest racial bonus to sneak of all races. I then played Skyrim 3 times, once on PS3 and twice on PC as a Bosmer; Bosmer no longer had the biggest sneak bonus of all, but still had a bonus to it. I came to ESO where, for the past 5 years, Bosmer have had a bonus to sneak. In the lore, Bosmer are always referred to as excellent archers and consummate sneak-thieves. There is the Rite of Theft, The 1000 Benefits of Hiding, and more lore besides to support the idea that Bosmer are much better than most races at sneaking. This change has ripped all of that away, and for no good reason other than to totally trash the existing lore.

Reason is that they needed somebody to counter gankers in PVP. So ZOS decided that best solution is to turn gank race to anti-gank race and also updated sentry set to show the way. Lore.. obviously persons who are responsible for balance don't care about lore much, they just need racial passives system which is easier to balance and which meets their vision of PVP.

Then it still fails because it is a stupid reason, and not a good reason. Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

So, no. There's no good reason just a dumb, ill-conceived, and poorly implemented excuse for a reason. And if this was truly the reason, why leave the hiding bonus on the Khajiit (actually, don't forget Khajiit got a 2m INCREASE to their hiding bonus) and additional crit damage?

If they wanted to give a race a counter-stealth ability, it should have been Orcs (who counter both Khajiit and Bosmer) who are described in the lore (ESO specific lore, at that) as being both very annoyed by people in stealth around them and very good at seeing said people. At least the Wood Orc tribes.

Well, it's extra damage from stealth was issue about bosmers, not a stealth radius. And increased damage gone on both races. High crit-pvp builds are very unstable one.. cool to kill lazy pve-ers which came to farm AP in pve gear, but rather weak against persons in full impen.. and majority of gankers were bosmers.. and Elsweyr which will be most popular among khajiit mains so it was rather obvious choice to sacrifice bosmers "for PVP balance sake".

So take away the damage bonus from attacking from stealth. I've never asked for it to come back. It should never have been limited behind a racial in the first place.

If the issue isn't the stealth radius why screw with it?

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

A_Silverius

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

I'm basically agreeing with you while facepalming at the irony that ZOS made, if the intention was for bosmer's to be a counter to khajiit.

Jhalin

It’s so f*ing disappointing to be reminded every patch how little ZOS cares about any of its players or TES lore. Everyone was calling from DAY 1 to have Bosmer stealth restored, and they just ignore it. They tell everyone to pss off and go race change. They say screw your lore we’re not going to respect the gameplay style that’s existed for 5 damn years, and even longer than that across other games.

Imagine going to the grocery store and being told in a week they’re going to start stocking the dairy products outside without refrigeration because its cheaper. The customers rightfully tell the company how terrible an idea that is, and yet what do you know, a week later the milk is out in the sun and spoiling, with everyone wondering what in the absolute hell is wrong with the management. That’s what this change represents.

ZOS’s complete incompetence and lack of care for players.

Wildbloom

My main has been a bosmer nightblade since I started the game. I value and treasure her as a character. She collected every skyshard, completed every dungeon, and has all of my good achievment points. I've been looking at the back of her head, with the same haircut, every day for a very long time now.

Why should I have to race change to be decent in stealth pve gameplay now? Why do I have to be a furry just to have the same stealth bonus I did last week? I'm not going to race change her, period, because I dislike khajit, but that means I'm stuck with this abomination of a dodge-roll/stealth -DETECTION- racial for, what, the sake of diversity? This change is soul-crushing and easily impacts gameplay more than any other racial change. Maybe this race has less regen but more of this stat, this one has more weapon damage but less regen, ect...little stuff that only effects the min/maxers. For us bosmer who have been enjoying this entire aspect of gameplay this way for so long, only to have it changed because of ZOS's sudden preference for the khajit race, is heartbreaking.

And at this point, I think the thing people are most upset about is the silence regarding what seems to be one of the biggest controversies in the game right now. (See: Most pages of any thread circulating the General Discussion right now). If the Brassy Assassin can get a "heads up, this is the deal", why can't we? Talk to us, PLEASE.

Uryel

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Gankers will be Khajiit more than anything else since they still get bonus crit damage (don't forget, shadow cloak gives 3s of 100% crit chance) and still have the full hiding bonus. Bosmer can't counter Khajiit because THEY'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

I'm basically agreeing with you while facepalming at the irony that ZOS made, if the intention was for bosmer's to be a counter to khajiit.

I was thinking the guard, obviously a Bosmer since that's our role now apparently, was purposedly hiding his face to make sure he wouldn't see the Khajiits ganking other folks, because they are on the same team.

Go home, imagination, you're drunk.

Uryel

Swergdach wrote: »

And here comes the Khajiit, which sells crown crates, unobtrusively offers you to buy Adventurer Pack from Crown Store.
(͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)

Unfortunately, the pay as town guard isn't quite as good as adventuring.

Razorback174

For those interested, this is from the previous class rep session:

"Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

Make of it what you will.

anadandy

Gibgarde wrote: »

And at this point, I think the thing people are most upset about is the silence regarding what seems to be one of the biggest controversies in the game right now. (See: Most pages of any thread circulating the General Discussion right now). If the Brassy Assassin can get a "heads up, this is the deal", why can't we? Talk to us, PLEASE.

This is so true for me. I am probably more angry at the pathetic "explanation" in the patch notes than I am about the actual change right now. It basically boils down into a bunch of nonsensical PR speak.

Post a bug about AP loot dropping nirnhorned items? Zos responds in a nanonsecond.

Weeks of clear, concise and reasonable feedback about the Bosmer change: *crickets*

Wildbloom

Razorback174 wrote: »

For those interested, this is from the previous class rep session:

"Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

Make of it what you will.

The first thing that comes to mind with this is a deeper Legerdemain tree in Elswyr. I suppose I'd be okay with getting the extra stealth bump from somewhere else, even if it means everyone else gets one too. Or perhaps there will be a new guild/tree in Elswyr that involves the underground thieving khajit people who train others to be more sneaky? I like this, but it's just a shame we have to wait and see what will happen, if anything.

This may explain ZOS' silence on the matter too, as their explanation may very well be a spoiler about something in Elswyr. Hmm...