PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

DeathStalker

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Sinolai

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

DeathStalker

Sinolai wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

If High Elves already have great damage ( and they do ) and they take all sustain from them, then everyone will just switch to Brenton. Which is why High Elf should be given a little sustain and Brenton should be given a little damage.

Zer0oo

Zer0oo wrote: »

they know that with the sustain of breton you will get higher dps on most classes than any other race including altmer.

The altmer passive sustain passive was quite bad. It gave fixed returns on skill activation which do not get buffed by passives and only work well on builds who use a lot of class skills. (RIP mag sorcs and healers+tanks) The passive is realistic (7-8 sec) 70-80 mag /sec but this gets not amplified by % of light armor, cp, sets pots,
so with light armor+pot(40% more reg) you just need 100-115 mag reg to match this passive in sustain aka the free mag reg bretons get on top to their resistances. It just gets worse for classes who use more weapon skills than class one. see mag sorc, stam dds, healers and tanks

The defensive passive of altmer was also extreme weak and only useful on templers.

I fear they will destroy altmer since sustain is way more much worth than damage. The return on class skill was already quite bad. It works not on all classes and specs since not all builds use a lot of class skills(Just look at mag sorcs, healers or tanks). Additional it does not get boosted by % from passive and buffs like pots. The regen passive is realistically worth less than 100mag reg.
With the insane sustain bretons get they can build for way more damage.

bardx86

DeathStalker wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

If High Elves already have great damage ( and they do ) and they take all sustain from them, then everyone will just switch to Brenton. Which is why High Elf should be given a little sustain and Brenton should be given a little damage.

Exactly. High elf was perfect the way they had originally changed it. The class will be worthless without the sustain piece.

MLGProPlayer

Sinolai wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

Khajiit already outparse or tie Altmer for the two top DPS classes (templar and NB) on the current PTS patch .

MLGProPlayer

DeathStalker wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

If High Elves already have great damage ( and they do ) and they take all sustain from them, then everyone will just switch to Brenton. Which is why High Elf should be given a little sustain and Brenton should be given a little damage.

High elves don't actually have great damage. Breton consistently outparse them right now (before any Altmer nerfs). As do Khajiit for some classes (templar and NB).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1

ZOS has done zero testing and are just pulling these changes out of their asses.

Steelshiv

In regard to the changes to the racials changes: "If it isn't broken; don't fix it." Many players were fine with the changes to Altmer and Breton. Now everyone is pissed off.

MLGProPlayer

Steelshiv wrote: »

In regard to the changes to the racials changes: "If it isn't broken; don't fix it." Many players were fine with the changes to Altmer and Breton. Now everyone is pissed off.

Only Altmer are pissed off because our race just became *** useless. Dunmer were pissed off after the first round of changes too. All they had to do was buff Dunmer. That's it. But no, they went ahead and nerfed another race into uselessness. Would it kill ZOS to leave something alone that isn't broken?

SodanTok

Steelshiv wrote: »

In regard to the changes to the racials changes: "If it isn't broken; don't fix it." Many players were fine with the changes to Altmer and Breton. Now everyone is pissed off.

You mean like first time they changed it? :P

DeathStalker

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

In regards to the class meeting notes and the incoming racial changes. I have a suggestion and a request.

The suggestion
Why not make High Elves have great damage and a little sustain and Brenton's have great sustain and a little damage. Then you would have a real choice and Brenton would be just as viable as the High Elves.

The request
Please don't destroy High Elves. If you do what you said in the other thread then nobody will play High Elves at all. They will all just race change to Brenton.

Too much damage would make Altmer the go-to race for all magicka and you are forgetting Dunmer (The current burst machine without sustain) and Khajiit from the Picture. They are also competing for Magicka DPS race title and should have something that encourages players to pick them.
From the notes, I understood ZOS already have a plan to replace the Altmer sustain tool with something that should still make the race attractive for magicka builds.

If High Elves already have great damage ( and they do ) and they take all sustain from them, then everyone will just switch to Brenton. Which is why High Elf should be given a little sustain and Brenton should be given a little damage.

High elves don't actually have great damage. Breton consistently outparse them right now (before any Altmer nerfs). As do Khajiit for some classes (templar and NB).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score/p1

ZOS has done zero testing and are just pulling these changes out of their asses.

Fair enough. My poimt was simply that High Elves need a buff not a nerf. Maybe my wording was poor.

Anhedonie

Let's see what the changes are first though before getting pissed off. Although, I don't think that dunmers need a buff nor that altmers need a nerf. Altmers could use slight change to their mitigation passive thoguh. And don't forget the imperials with that useless dead weight called Red Diamond.

anadandy

silvereyes wrote: »

Hunter's Eye will necessarily drop off in the time between the end of fatigue and the next roll as it stands. That coupled with needing to let off sprint to dodge roll makes the passive feel clunky.

This was my experience - the clunkiness made the supposed speed buff negligible compared to what my Bosmer already has (Max CP, all medium & bow passives, steed mundus).

Tasear

The orc changes for today are disappointing. It just makes me personally want to switch my orc tank to a nord one now. The flavor of orc tank has been ruined. Even now imperial is a better choice.

The bosmer changes don't make sense even more in pve again. Giving spell penetration after roll dodging? Someone tell me how this makes sense. At least with the speed bosmers actually had something, but looks like they will be worst race again.

Minno

After the change need to express concern about imperial. They lost identity to become budget kitties. Previously their heal matched their "brawler" identity while their max stat showed their versatility. With the heal gone, and generic sustain passive added, they have gone too far towards tank with a generic cooldown that basically equates to 133 mag/Stam/heal per second.

And we can't fully test the passive due to a bug till nextpts cycle. Can imperial get this brawler identity back?

J18696

With the new pts update you guys pretty much took imperial outback behind the shed and put it out of its misery ded race

Toc de Malsvi

Bosmer speed reduction made sense, but adding penetration after dodge roll doesn't make any sense. Especially considering the actually usable duration of the buff, it would really only be very useful in PVP.

Snare buff to Redguards is quite strong for PVP application, significantly more valuable than the Bosmer speed roll bonus. The Redguard passive does not require a dodge roll, is constant, and directly mitigates snares which nullify the Bosmer speed roll bonus even before it was nerfed to 10%.

Minno

J18696 wrote: »

With the new pts update you guys pretty much took imperial outback behind the shed and put it out of its misery ded race

Agreed. Why go imperial whenbreton gets 100 mag Regen, 2kmag insane cost reduction to mag and access to huge resists when burning/concussed/chilled?! You can go tri stat enchants with rest in health to be equal to imperial in stats but get some brawly passives!!!!

Imperial got gutted; don't need to test to know it lol.

MLGProPlayer

Altmer is officially useless as an endgame magicka race. ZOS, you do *** realize that they were already parsing behind Breton and Khajiit before these changes, right? This is because Breton can use berserker enchant while Altmer can't, and couldn't even before these changes. Here is the math, since you obviously did no actual number crunching yourselves...

Altmer were already behind Breton and Khajiit in testing before these nerfs.

So let's compare the 2 races using basic math:

Spell damage:

Here is where ZOS' balance approach is flawed. They are looking at values on paper, outside of any actual context.

Altmer: +258 spell damage
Breton: +0 spell damage

Looking at this, someone not familiar with the game would assume that Altmer deal more damage. This is of course false. Anybody who actually plays the game would know that sustain is a factor in determining DPS too. Let's compare sustain now.

Sustain:

Breton: +7% cost reduction, +100 magicka recovery
Altmer: +192 magicka recovery (575/6)

Effective magicka recovery:

Breton: +500 (assuming that the average cost of a skill is 3k, they save ~200 magicka every second, or 400 every 2 seconds + 100 from their flat recovery bonus)
Altmer: +192

As you can see, there is a huge descrepency between the two when it comes to sustain. What does this mean? It means that Altmer need to slot a recovery glyph in order to sustain endgame fights. Bretons, on the other hand, don't need to slot a recovery glyph since they have that sustain built into their passives. This means they can slot a Berserker glyph instead. Now let's look at their spell damage numbers again.

Spell damage (again):

Altmer: +258
Breton: +452

All of a sudden, Breton has +200 spell damage on Altmer. Now, this obviously isn't a flat +200 buff since the recovery glyph deals 4k magicka damage too, but it's still enough of a difference to put Breton slightly on top (which was fine).

Aliyavana

Hunter's Eye: Reduced the Movement Speed Bonus granted to 10% from 20%, but added a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.

3 second duration isn't really appealing for 1.5k phys and spell pen, why not make it have a constant uptime? In pve, no ones going to bother dodge rolling for that bonus and this makes them a pvp only favored racial. Why not add in a bonus to sprint cost reduction for the duration? In pve stam dps may need to reposition so they don't die. or empower your next 3 casts, etc.

FrancisCrawford

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Breton: +500 (assuming that the average cost of a skill is 3k, they save ~200 magicka every second, or 400 every 2 seconds + 100 from their flat recovery bonus)

How do you manage to get ~2400 magicka/second to spend?

Carbonised

Thank you for listening to Dunmer feedback and not completely leave Magic based Dunmers behind in the dirt after Bretons, Altmer and Khajiit. With the small increase to stam and mag, Dunmers is again a viable choice for magicka players, as well as viable in pvp environments and even as a tank (the closest thing we will ever get to hybrids in this game).

If the current iteration of the racial passives go live, I can be happy with that.

MLGProPlayer

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Breton: +500 (assuming that the average cost of a skill is 3k, they save ~200 magicka every second, or 400 every 2 seconds + 100 from their flat recovery bonus)

How do you manage to get ~2400 magicka/second to spend?

They cast 1 ability per second, they save, on average, 200 magicka per cast.

notyuu

Still no sustain for for nords, which is rather annoying as it limits their play style to say the least of it

so proposed idea would be swap out the +15 minuet drink duration for a +15% drink effectiveness

that way a nord can drink and have a little more sustain, ya know?

Gnozo

I already mentioned it in another Thread about bosmer changes.

Penetration on dodge roll will only work in PvP. No stam DD will work a dodge roll in his rotation. So he wont benefit from this passive his race has to offer.

Dodge roll itself is an defense mechanic and maybe bosmer could get minor evasion for 3 seconds after dodge roll. This would be usefull in both Pve and PvP. Dodge roll helps to avoid single target damage and minor evasion on this would also help a little bit against AOE damage. By making it a minor debuff it wont be to strong and by this, also other classes besides warden could get access to minor evasion.

xaraan

Hmm, I guess I "can't complain" since Argonian won't be nerfed as bad as it was, but it's still nerfed.

Still loss of health, plus additional loss of health for tanks as they put points into stam to make up for unneeded bonus magicka.

Still not a useful race as a DPS, I guess bottom of barrel for mag-DPS out of races that get any sort of mag bonuses at least.

Still lost a resistance and healing in bonus, which will hurt tanks more than healing out.

Which to me, all was well and good to bring them down a notch or two support wise, but they should have gotten some small buff to being more useful DPS.

I still think they should receive an equal buff to stamina as they get to magicka, that would allow them to perform at just below par for either DPS role and prevent them from having to self nerf health to raise up stam for tanking. And it would not make the over powered, more perform as well as any mag or stam race.

But I guess I should just be happy they slowed the nerf hammer down a smidge.

StopDropAndBear

Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525

I'm confused, it's already been firmly established that Altmer are a magicka race and their flavor is centered around magicka use, so isn't lowest maximum resource almost universally gonna be stamina? Why do I want return on the resource pool I'm NOT using?

Dalsinthus

I'm so pissed about the bosmer changes. Hunter's eye is just garbage. The 10% speed boost will see a very small amount of use, but the duration is so short and the conditions attached are really limiting. I'd gladly trade that for the new redguard passive which is always up.

Bosmer are supposed to be stealthy, but instead we get useless stealth detection. Useless in pve and only rarely useful in pvp.

1500 pen for ~2 seconds after a dodge roll is not going to see much use at all. No one wants to lose pve dps for this and in pvp, it is not going to be reliable with the clunky condition attached.

I really hate khajit, but feel like I am being forced to play one or a redguard now.

olsborg

Id much rather see a defencive buff to dodgeroll for Bosmer, penetration on something you do for defence is useless guys.

olsborg

Orc: Isnt it a bit much to gain 2k stamina and 258 weapon dmg....I mean...huh..