PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

vesselwiththepestle

Hi!

As a mostly Stam DPS player, I like most of the changes. I tried my current main build on different races and all dps were roughly the same - the main difference was how many heavy attacks I need to sustain. While in solo parses Redguard was a bit in advantage, I guess in real play (not parses) and group buffed situations Orc and probably Dunmer will really shine. I can't wait for the copy of the EU db, so I can test on my own characters without going through the hassle of creating copies on my own. The changes to weapoin enchantments seem to have far more impact anyway, which makes actual testing a bit difficult. How can you compare when two important variables are changed .

However, Imperial seems to be very pale in comparison. The rework of Red Diamond is nice and I guess it is stronger now. However, in situations where you need heal you probably slot Vigor anyway. Imperials need either a buff to damage or to sustain to stay competetive with the other races. Something like a single bonus to weapon damage or recovery. The bonus could be added to the highest stat, so it wouldn't matter if you are magicka or stamina, you would get the bonus on your prime recovery. Another option would be to add stamina sustain to red diamond, which could be interesting for tanks, too.

SydneyGrey

I tested the changes on all of my Dark Elves (warden, nightblade and dragonknight).
I compared their stats from my live game directly with the new stats on the PTS. In all cases, the Dark Elves had lower magicka after the changes.
I don't mind my characters changing a little bit, but is too much. Our magicka-based Dark Elves should NOT be weaker than they were before.

Very unhappy about this and the Argonian nerfs. Argonians already don't have a large magicka pool. I don't mind you nerfing their potion passive, but you should make up for it by giving them slightly more magicka, at least. Just my two cents.

Yamenstein

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

Vapirko

IronWooshu wrote: »

I posted this before, Nord may look good on paper but in actuality they aren't really that great outside of PVP and in PVP any race can do fine.

they need to make it 5 ultimate every 5 seconds when in combat (this will work for all ROLES - YES FREEDOM ZoS).... or just remove it entirely and give us weapon damage and stam sustain and allow us to compete Stam DPS because even with the ultimate passive and resists they don't look to be BiS tank and if they aren't BiS tank and weakest in terms of damage for magicka and stamina than Nord may actually be just as bad as they are on live.

There is a reason no one tests Nords and no one is talking about Nords because they are the least played race for how bad they've been on live and nothings really changed with the new passives when you play them on PTS, you just go.. oh ok and notice nothing different.

@ZOS_Gilliam

they look good on paper, that is it.

If nords get 5 ult every 5 seconds then I’m definitely using one for PvP lol.

CyberOnEso

I would just like to add that the racial bonuses descriptor on the character creator needs to be updated to reflect the racial passive changes.

Example:

Woodelves no- longer have disease resistance

Silver_Strider

Yamenstein wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

3rd worst DPS, just barely ahead of Nords and Imperial because of sustain alone.
2nd place Healer with Altmer, Breton has better Magic Sustain. Altmer has sustain issues when in comparison to Argonian in pure healing but have slightly stronger heals and better damage overall.
As for Tanking, I'd say Nord wins. Nord, technically has more utility with Ultimate Regen but only in long fights and there is the fact they can practically drop their Major Resistance skill for another, more useful skill, so they're somewhat better for Tanking now. Argonian is just sort of the easy mode Tank in terms of Resource Sustain but can be dropped once you learn to manage yourself.
PvP performance is at an all time low. Weaker self heals as well as incoming heals, lower sustain, extra damage from Poison Procs, it's just bad. #feelsbadman

We're worse than ever before IMO and really, I just can't stand the thought of being weak in everything AGAIN.

FilteredRiddle

Between the race and enchantment changes, I'm disappointed with most of the racial outcomes. However, I think the Imperial changes are unbelievable (particularly coupled with the 50% enchantment nerf) and need to be looked at.

To test the differences, I decided to do a controlled study.

I did 5 parses on my current Imperial Stamina Nightblade on the live Xbox NA server, utilizing my standard rotation. I then recreated the exact character on the Wrathstone PTS, and did 5 parses with the same skills and rotation. Finally, I racechanged the character to Redguard, and once more did 5 parses with the same skills and rotation.

For each group of 5 parses, I found the average of the DPS; I am comparing the averages below. I also compared all of their other character stats; I am highlighting the differences below.

From Live Imperial Stamblade to PTS Imperial Stamblade:

• - 6,604.8 DPS
• + 540 Max Health
• - 488 Max Stamina

From Live Imperial Stamblade to PTS Redguard Stamblade:

• - 5,335.4 DPS
• - 1,680 Max Health
• - 488 Max Stamina

On the Live Imperial Stamblade and PTS Redguard Stamblade, I could get through a rotation without running out of Stamina. On the PTS Imperial Stamblade I had to heavy attack 1-2 times, every other rotation, in order to sustain.

In other words, if I do not racechange my main character - the Imperial Stamina Nightblade - I will lose a huge amount of DPS and a small amount of Max Stamina. I will also experience significant sustain issues that did not exist before.

Even if I racechange to the "best" race (ignoring that this character has been a successful Imperial Stamina Nightblade since racechanges were first released) I will still net a huge albeit smaller DPS loss, a significant Max Health loss, and the same Max Stamina loss all so I don't struggle with sustain.

That is ridiculous. It also ignores that I have five more Imperial Stamina toons which I would need to race change and we're getting a single race change token.

This is not okay.

Toc de Malsvi

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Between the race and enchantment changes, I'm disappointed with most of the racial outcomes. However, I think the Imperial changes are unbelievable (particularly coupled with the 50% enchantment nerf) and need to be looked at.

To test the differences, I decided to do a controlled study.

I did 5 parses on my current Imperial Stamina Nightblade on the live Xbox NA server, utilizing my standard rotation. I then recreated the exact character on the Wrathstone PTS, and did 5 parses with the same skills and rotation. Finally, I racechanged the character to Redguard, and once more did 5 parses with the same skills and rotation.

For each group of 5 parses, I found the average of the DPS; I am comparing the averages below. I also compared all of their other character stats; I am highlighting the differences below.

From Live Imperial Stamblade to PTS Imperial Stamblade:

• - 6,604.8 DPS
• + 540 Max Health
• - 488 Max Stamina

From Live Imperial Stamblade to PTS Redguard Stamblade:

• - 5,335.4 DPS
• - 1,680 Max Health
• - 488 Max Stamina

On the Live Imperial Stamblade and PTS Redguard Stamblade, I could get through a rotation without running out of Stamina. On the PTS Imperial Stamblade I had to heavy attack 1-2 times, every other rotation, in order to sustain.

In other words, if I do not racechange my main character - the Imperial Stamina Nightblade - I will lose a huge amount of DPS and a small amount of Max Stamina. I will also experience significant sustain issues that did not exist before.

Even if I racechange to the "best" race (ignoring that this character has been a successful Imperial Stamina Nightblade since racechanges were first released) I will still net a huge albeit smaller DPS loss, a significant Max Health loss, and the same Max Stamina loss all so I don't struggle with sustain.

That is ridiculous. It also ignores that I have five more Imperial Stamina toons which I would need to race change and we're getting a single race change token.

This is not okay.

If you are losing 6.6k from Imperial to Imperial, and 5k from Imperial to Redguard, it is not the racial change that is the issue. Probably you are DW and not accounting for the nerf to DW enchants.

IronWooshu

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

Nothing jaded about what I said, I am not against Argonian getting racial changes I don't know why you think I am fighting you on this. The Nord Ultimate Regen is trash if they keep it as when taking damage rather than being in combat.

Vapirko wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I posted this before, Nord may look good on paper but in actuality they aren't really that great outside of PVP and in PVP any race can do fine.

they need to make it 5 ultimate every 5 seconds when in combat (this will work for all ROLES - YES FREEDOM ZoS).... or just remove it entirely and give us weapon damage and stam sustain and allow us to compete Stam DPS because even with the ultimate passive and resists they don't look to be BiS tank and if they aren't BiS tank and weakest in terms of damage for magicka and stamina than Nord may actually be just as bad as they are on live.

There is a reason no one tests Nords and no one is talking about Nords because they are the least played race for how bad they've been on live and nothings really changed with the new passives when you play them on PTS, you just go.. oh ok and notice nothing different.

@ZOS_Gilliam

they look good on paper, that is it.

If nords get 5 ult every 5 seconds then I’m definitely using one for PvP lol.

even if they keep it 5 ultimate every 10 seconds but make it so you generate it in combat rather than taking damage would be a win for DD and Healing Nords but they already are gonna be one of the best races in PVP, you will be able to wear light or medium armor and feel good about it since the resist passive helps more than the current mitigation on live does.

IntelligentAmsomniac

I play wood elf both in PvE and PvP and the new racial bonus of stealth detection is highly situational and only applicaple in PvP, and even there it's not that useful nor wanted. Wood elves should have a a racial passive that's useful, unique and lore friendly. Stealth detection fails misrably at meeting those goals.

Bosmer are a stealthy race by nature, so I suggest giving them the ability to move at normal speed while sneaking, basically removing their need to be a vampire for that single passive if that's all they want from vampirism. Ignores the movement penalty of sneak is already implemented within the game, it's lore-friendly and most importantly, it can be useful for both PvP and PvE (think thieving for example).

It wouldn't be unique strictly speaking as there's also a craftable set that gives the bonus, but at least it would be much more useful than stealth detection. And would free you to use some other 5-piece set. It would also keep the seperation between wood elf's and khajiit's passives.

Eiagra

Orcs need more love. Plenty of others have commented why (largely the measly 500 point attribute bonuses), so just tossing my chip in the pile. Also, will re-iterate here: Orc's flavor passive is the only one in the game that becomes DISABLED when you achieve mastery. Would like to see that inspiration gain replaced or supplemented by something else crafting related.

Kurat

Eiagra wrote: »

Orcs need more love. Plenty of others have commented why (largely the measly 500 point attribute bonuses), so just tossing my chip in the pile. Also, will re-iterate here: Orc's flavor passive is the only one in the game that becomes DISABLED when you achieve mastery. Would like to see that inspiration gain replaced or supplemented by something else crafting related.

Same goes for Argonian swim speed. Its useless. Where im gonna swim in dungeons /trials or pvp.

Vapirko

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

Nothing jaded about what I said, I am not against Argonian getting racial changes I don't know why you think I am fighting you on this. The Nord Ultimate Regen is trash if they keep it as when taking damage rather than being in combat.

Vapirko wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I posted this before, Nord may look good on paper but in actuality they aren't really that great outside of PVP and in PVP any race can do fine.

they need to make it 5 ultimate every 5 seconds when in combat (this will work for all ROLES - YES FREEDOM ZoS).... or just remove it entirely and give us weapon damage and stam sustain and allow us to compete Stam DPS because even with the ultimate passive and resists they don't look to be BiS tank and if they aren't BiS tank and weakest in terms of damage for magicka and stamina than Nord may actually be just as bad as they are on live.

There is a reason no one tests Nords and no one is talking about Nords because they are the least played race for how bad they've been on live and nothings really changed with the new passives when you play them on PTS, you just go.. oh ok and notice nothing different.

@ZOS_Gilliam

they look good on paper, that is it.

If nords get 5 ult every 5 seconds then I’m definitely using one for PvP lol.

even if they keep it 5 ultimate every 10 seconds but make it so you generate it in combat rather than taking damage would be a win for DD and Healing Nords but they already are gonna be one of the best races in PVP, you will be able to wear light or medium armor and feel good about it since the resist passive helps more than the current mitigation on live does.

Agreed I’ve been race changing like crazy between orc and Nord on PTS for my PvP stamplar and the innate resists on Nord with the higher Stam and health are very very appealing, ult gen aside. It would be nice if you got more wpn damage boost for wearing the 6th and 7th pieces of medium though, or some kind of max Stam boost exclusive to 5 medium pieces. For PvP the flat weapon damage and sprint reduction is still really good. Speed wise, if your wear 6-7 medium on a nord and 5 on orc, you don’t notice a whole lot of difference between nord and orc. I wish there was a way of trying it a race on live for 24 hours or something.

Narvuntien

Okay, now people have done the tests I am going to stop complaining and say you've done a good job here overall well done.

I'd still like something better than the stealth detection for the Bosmer but I underestimated the power of their sustain.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Savos_Saren I haven’t on PTS, but I think the hybrid build I made will still be viable and survive. Especially since it has so many weapon options, the sustain is insane, the damage is good and can be better with ele drain, and it’s extrmely tanky for no tank sets.
Do I think it’ll shine? Maybe in 1vX a little. Can it beat sorc? Yeah. Will it struggle more? Yeah. Will other things be better? Definitely.

But I want more burst damage and the same survivability... so I’m finally making a stamden.

xaraan

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

3rd worst DPS, just barely ahead of Nords and Imperial because of sustain alone.
2nd place Healer with Altmer, Breton has better Magic Sustain. Altmer has sustain issues when in comparison to Argonian in pure healing but have slightly stronger heals and better damage overall.
As for Tanking, I'd say Nord wins. Nord, technically has more utility with Ultimate Regen but only in long fights and there is the fact they can practically drop their Major Resistance skill for another, more useful skill, so they're somewhat better for Tanking now. Argonian is just sort of the easy mode Tank in terms of Resource Sustain but can be dropped once you learn to manage yourself.
PvP performance is at an all time low. Weaker self heals as well as incoming heals, lower sustain, extra damage from Poison Procs, it's just bad. #feelsbadman

We're worse than ever before IMO and really, I just can't stand the thought of being weak in everything AGAIN.

^
This.

I'll let Nords and Imperials fight their own DPS battles as they would probably make better points than me. But as an argonian player these changes are depressing.

No, my tanks aren't ruined. But they are knocked down a notch or two and for what? No improvement elsewhere outside of being considered ok at magicka dps.

I think a flat value of 1K to all three stats would give them a boost in either type of DPS to at least be "ok" at either and not be too OP in PvP. It would also prevent the second stealth nerf to health tank builds (on top of the loss we'll see going from 9% to 1K) by forcing us to take points or enchants from health and put them into stam to raise that higher than magicka so we get stam return when we use a shard/orb.

And without giving us any sort of extra dps bonuses, that should only keep Argonians fighting for a runner up spot in support where racials matter least and at least "decent" in dps roles. (Granted, I think Nords and Imperials should at least be decent at these roles too). -- All my notes of decent, fair, bad, good, etc. rankings are just coming from the fairly extensive testing done by a guild and posted in the general forums today.

silvereyes

I feel like the wood elf changes are wasting an opportunity to do something fun and unique with the race while improving the game.

Instead, you gave them a speed boost that's similar but better than Orc's and probably completely breaks PVP, while taking away their stealthy nature.

A couple lore-friendly alternatives:

• Bosmer are often associated with command of simple-minded animals. A bonus to summoned animal pet damage and/or healing, would synergise well with Warden and Sorc classes (especially if Sorc ever gets any stamina pet morphs ... hint hint). Necromancer and Nightblade "pets" would be exempt, not being animals. Creature-oriented proc sets like Selene, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Shadowrend, Tremorscale and Defiler could also be buffed by the passive ... maybe.
• Bosmer affinity for archery is unrivaled in lore. It would be nice to have a passive geared at bow/bow setups. Perhaps reducing the cast time for bow abilities by 50% and granting resistance when taking damage from more than 1 enemy.

Silver_Strider

xaraan wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

3rd worst DPS, just barely ahead of Nords and Imperial because of sustain alone.
2nd place Healer with Altmer, Breton has better Magic Sustain. Altmer has sustain issues when in comparison to Argonian in pure healing but have slightly stronger heals and better damage overall.
As for Tanking, I'd say Nord wins. Nord, technically has more utility with Ultimate Regen but only in long fights and there is the fact they can practically drop their Major Resistance skill for another, more useful skill, so they're somewhat better for Tanking now. Argonian is just sort of the easy mode Tank in terms of Resource Sustain but can be dropped once you learn to manage yourself.
PvP performance is at an all time low. Weaker self heals as well as incoming heals, lower sustain, extra damage from Poison Procs, it's just bad. #feelsbadman

We're worse than ever before IMO and really, I just can't stand the thought of being weak in everything AGAIN.

^
This.

I'll let Nords and Imperials fight their own DPS battles as they would probably make better points than me. But as an argonian player these changes are depressing.

No, my tanks aren't ruined. But they are knocked down a notch or two and for what? No improvement elsewhere outside of being considered ok at magicka dps.

I think a flat value of 1K to all three stats would give them a boost in either type of DPS to at least be "ok" at either and not be too OP in PvP. It would also prevent the second stealth nerf to health tank builds (on top of the loss we'll see going from 9% to 1K) by forcing us to take points or enchants from health and put them into stam to raise that higher than magicka so we get stam return when we use a shard/orb.

And without giving us any sort of extra dps bonuses, that should only keep Argonians fighting for a runner up spot in support where racials matter least and at least "decent" in dps roles. (Granted, I think Nords and Imperials should at least be decent at these roles too). -- All my notes of decent, fair, bad, good, etc. rankings are just coming from the fairly extensive testing done by a guild and posted in the general forums today.

I'd cut Resource into a 500 Magic/Stamina Split and add a 100 Weapon/Spell Damage buff to Life Mender, giving Argonians much more open ended flexibility. The extra Stamina and weapon damage would open Argonian up for Stamina DPS, while the Spell Damage would improve Magic DPS and Healers to be more worthwhile as a whole without overstepping into OP territory again. It also helps out Argonian Tanks some because the 60% nerf to self healing will at least be somewhat mitigated by the added Weapon/Spell Damage buff as well.

But that's just me.

TheNightflame

imperials are left in the dust... otherwise i'm fairly happy

Faulgor

After seeing the DPS numbers from testers, it's pretty clear ZOS did a good job in that regard. However, DPS is not everything.
And I still have issues with Orcs for that reason.

Orcs used to be a good choice for tanking, sharing a bonus to health and stamina only with Nords and Imperials. And although a niche build, they even had some application as Nightblade healers, because they have a heal based on max health.
With the nerfs to their attribute bonuses, Orcs seem to lose out on all fronts except stamina DPS. They are uniquely disadvantaged, having 50% less attributes than the next lowest race. Where these attribute bonuses are allocated is, in the end, not that important, because you can make up weaknesses easily with enchantments, specific food and other gear. What you can't make up is an absolute lack of these bonuses, with Orcs effectively lacking ~9 Attribute points.
When everyone else is playing at least at level 50, Orcs are held back at 45.

Imperial: 22% live, 4000 PTS
Dunmer: 15% live, 3100 PTS
Nord: 15% live, 2500 PTS
Argonian: 12% live, 2000 PTS
Altmer: 10% live, 2000 PTS
Breton: 10% live, 2000 PTS
Redguard: 10% live, 2000 PTS
Bosmer: 6% live, 2000 PTS
Khajiit: 0% live, 2250 PTS
Orc: 12% live, 1000 PTS

All other races have at least 2000 attribute points, and are mostly in the same range they had on live. 10-12% get 2000 points, 15% a bit above that, and Imperials at the top. Bosmer and Khajiit received considerable buffs. It's just Orc who received a nerf.

In the developer comment it was stated that Orcs' defense was dialed back because of their new offense - but why do the other races that received weapon and spell power have twice or three times as many attribute points, then?
Other races have bonuses that are applicable to tanking roles, too. Altmer has stamina gain with class abilities, Bretons have spell resist and huge cost reduction (many tanks chose Atronach mundus for a reason), Dunmer have the second most stats and fire resistance, Khajiit have a broad stat and recovery base, and Redguard have the superior stamina recovery for tanking. In fact, the only race that doesn't offer anything to tanking are Bosmer.
Why do all these offensively useful races also make reasonable tanks? Are the active resource gain from Unflinching and 4% extra healing - something anyone can get through champion points - really so superior that Orcs have to lose 1000 attribute points for them?

I didn't even get into the situation for healers yet, but it is comparable. Race doesn't matter a whole lot for healing, as long as you aren't disadvantaged stat-wise and can cover your weaknesses through mundus, food, enchantments and so on. And even unconventional healing races offer something - Nords get ultimate regen, and the extra defense is important for healers, too; Dunmer have a huge stat pool and stronger heals with their spell power boost; Redguards have a considerable cost reduction for restoration staff abilities. Altmer, Bretons and Argonians are obvious healing races anyway. Imperials, while boring, at least offer a large stat pool to compensate, so it's again just Bosmer and Orc that don't offer much to a non-DPS role.

I could understand if you didn't want Orcs to become more powerful offensively, as they're already doing pretty well there. Why not put the points into health, then? Or even magicka.

Besides Imperials' lackluster theme and some minor tweaks to Nords' ultimate gain, I think Orcs are the only race that still needs some changes. But they do need them.

(Well, and maybe Bosmer, but those have better advocates than me as I don't play one).

Vapirko

silvereyes wrote: »

I feel like the wood elf changes are wasting an opportunity to do something fun and unique with the race while improving the game.

Instead, you gave them a speed boost that's similar but better than Orc's and probably completely breaks PVP, while taking away their stealthy nature.

A couple lore-friendly alternatives:

• Bosmer are often associated with command of simple-minded animals. A bonus to summoned animal pet damage and/or healing, would synergise well with Warden and Sorc classes (especially if Sorc ever gets any stamina pet morphs ... hint hint). Necromancer and Nightblade "pets" would be exempt, not being animals. Creature-oriented proc sets like Selene, Kra'gh, Maw of the Infernal, Shadowrend, Tremorscale and Defiler could also be buffed by the passive ... maybe.
• Bosmer affinity for archery is unrivaled in lore. It would be nice to have a passive geared at bow/bow setups. Perhaps reducing the cast time for bow abilities by 50% and granting resistance when taking damage from more than 1 enemy.

You’re saying you want to make snipe even more spammable? Sorry but as long as the devs choose to balance PvE and PvP together that is not an option. Also we’d all love increased restiances while taking damage from more than one enemy lol.

phantasmalD

Kurat wrote: »

Same goes for Argonian swim speed. Its useless. Where im gonna swim in dungeons /trials or pvp.

Well, there are some dungeons with water. And generally very useful in many overland location. Good for races if you have a guild that likes doing those.
It's just such a nice QoL boost, once you tasted argonian swim speed it's agony to go swimming with another race.

People are calling Nord tanks as the new meta but what about Nord healers? I know they don't get any built in boost to magicka so they definitely aren't the best healers but, to my understanding, overhealing is still a thing so it's not like you need THE strongest healer? Could 4 Nord support be the absolute meta?

zaria

IntelligentAmsomniac wrote: »

I play wood elf both in PvE and PvP and the new racial bonus of stealth detection is highly situational and only applicaple in PvP, and even there it's not that useful nor wanted. Wood elves should have a a racial passive that's useful, unique and lore friendly. Stealth detection fails misrably at meeting those goals.

Bosmer are a stealthy race by nature, so I suggest giving them the ability to move at normal speed while sneaking, basically removing their need to be a vampire for that single passive if that's all they want from vampirism. Ignores the movement penalty of sneak is already implemented within the game, it's lore-friendly and most importantly, it can be useful for both PvP and PvE (think thieving for example).

It wouldn't be unique strictly speaking as there's also a craftable set that gives the bonus, but at least it would be much more useful than stealth detection. And would free you to use some other 5-piece set. It would also keep the seperation between wood elf's and khajiit's passives.

What was an pretty good idea. Yes you can get it from vampirism but face it, people select bosmer for the look.

aeowulf

I have issues with a couple of things, from an otherwise great looking set of changes.

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

This change is useful in PVP only. Previously stealth was a PVP & PVE quality of life mechanic - no real place in PVE 'endgame'. This change is really bad for any PVE gamers with this race. Yes I know you are providing race change tokens but i've done race changes in previous games - they 'ruin' your relationship with that character. Please revisit this and consider leaving stealth in for Bosmer


Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

So erm, this is odd. As a tanking race, I would want that heal to go off if taking damage, not on giving direct damage. It also favours animation cancelling as that would result in twice the proc chance. AND % based stuff is not predictable, which is exactly the opposite of what a tank wants. Just make it so they recieve ~260 health when taking any damage (15% of 1750)
Whilst we're at it - that cost % reduction thing is not very good either. That's an enchant quality feature, not a set bonus quality feature but it also suffers from dimishing returns. Anyone that needs it (a tank) will probably be rocking 50%+ block cost reduction, so it's going to be massively less effective than it should be for a set bonus feature. Now making it reduce block cost by 80 (~5% of 1730) AFTER all other stats are calculated is a benefit to a tank. Please get away from this % thing completely. Same for all racial cost reductions.

Strider__Roshin

Eiagra wrote: »

Orcs need more love. Plenty of others have commented why (largely the measly 500 point attribute bonuses), so just tossing my chip in the pile. Also, will re-iterate here: Orc's flavor passive is the only one in the game that becomes DISABLED when you achieve mastery. Would like to see that inspiration gain replaced or supplemented by something else crafting related.

Considering the fact that Orcs are now the top DPS stamina race; it would be irrational to buff them further.

aeowulf

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

3rd worst DPS, just barely ahead of Nords and Imperial because of sustain alone.
2nd place Healer with Altmer, Breton has better Magic Sustain. Altmer has sustain issues when in comparison to Argonian in pure healing but have slightly stronger heals and better damage overall.
As for Tanking, I'd say Nord wins. Nord, technically has more utility with Ultimate Regen but only in long fights and there is the fact they can practically drop their Major Resistance skill for another, more useful skill, so they're somewhat better for Tanking now. Argonian is just sort of the easy mode Tank in terms of Resource Sustain but can be dropped once you learn to manage yourself.
PvP performance is at an all time low. Weaker self heals as well as incoming heals, lower sustain, extra damage from Poison Procs, it's just bad. #feelsbadman

We're worse than ever before IMO and really, I just can't stand the thought of being weak in everything AGAIN.

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

Context please. They are at the bottom, but by how much ?

3rd worst DPS, just barely ahead of Nords and Imperial because of sustain alone.
2nd place Healer with Altmer, Breton has better Magic Sustain. Altmer has sustain issues when in comparison to Argonian in pure healing but have slightly stronger heals and better damage overall.
As for Tanking, I'd say Nord wins. Nord, technically has more utility with Ultimate Regen but only in long fights and there is the fact they can practically drop their Major Resistance skill for another, more useful skill, so they're somewhat better for Tanking now. Argonian is just sort of the easy mode Tank in terms of Resource Sustain but can be dropped once you learn to manage yourself.
PvP performance is at an all time low. Weaker self heals as well as incoming heals, lower sustain, extra damage from Poison Procs, it's just bad. #feelsbadman

We're worse than ever before IMO and really, I just can't stand the thought of being weak in everything AGAIN.

Would agree with Nord probably being BIS for tanking - no issues there really. DK's are going to even see a resource boost of 23/s from that ulti-gen - not to be sniffed at. Things like this secondary effect are often missed and not considered.

The only thing i'd add would be balance is about give & take. There should probably be no race with max sustain AND max damage boosts - you take one, or the other. That's balance. I would of preferred to see each role represented in each faction, even if it broke the lore a bit (necromancers & dragons right?) and I mentioned AGES ago I would of popped the ulti gen on Imperial because they are stand alone faction wise and that is a bit more flexible than role specific boosts. They should probably rock in at about 3/4 tank and 3/4 dps

Ozby

For the Races of my Toons...

Khajiit - still need a boost to sustain on stam and mag I really do not want to race change to a wood elf on my stam warden.

Dark Elves - I feel they are loosing their identity in the proposed changes and I feel they do not fit any where mag or stam and really do think they need to be looked at again.

Argonians - Having 7 Argonian's personally I am not very impressed that they need to be nerfed in PvE to appease the PvP players why these two collide eludes me. Also nerfing healing done? why this change when Argonians are bottle necked into being Tanks and Healers anyway with the passives they have, your just changing Argonians from good at what they do to mediocre or possibly worse.

I'm not really impressed with the passive changes to any of the races thus far, I understand why a change needs to happen but Zos said it was to bring the races more in line with each other and to make it more lore friendly. The changes to Dark Elves doesn't seem lore friendly to me nor with Argonians such as loosing poison resist.

Anyway I am sure you will change these again before going live anyway, I just hope you do the races justice. Thanks for reading.

Faulgor

Daus wrote: »

Eiagra wrote: »

Orcs need more love. Plenty of others have commented why (largely the measly 500 point attribute bonuses), so just tossing my chip in the pile. Also, will re-iterate here: Orc's flavor passive is the only one in the game that becomes DISABLED when you achieve mastery. Would like to see that inspiration gain replaced or supplemented by something else crafting related.

Considering the fact that Orcs are now the top DPS stamina race; it would be irrational to buff them further.

Nobody is suggesting to buff their dps, though. And other races do well in more than one role, why can't Orcs?

heaven13

NobleX35 wrote: »

The racial changes for Imperial are highly underwhelming and don’t make a lot of sense with the theme of the overall balance changes. The combat team wanted to increase player options and open up more avenues, but then add in a percentage cost reduction to block and bash which is mostly only useful for tanking... This limits player options and should be reevaluated. I think a lot of great suggestions have been brought up for improving the Red Diamond passive and not limiting Imperials to just tanking rolls.

Imperials need a better theme than just “discount tanks.” One option could be to give them 500-1000 Max Magicka and make their theme the “Max Stat” race, which could provide many unique hybrid options and open up build diversity options for stamina classes.

Vaneur wrote: »

Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%. → When you deal Direct Damage, you are healed for 1750. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. Reduces all your cost by 5%.

Alternatively, this sounds very interesting as well because it provides imperials with some sustain options and could be interesting if it also affects ultimate costs.

ankeor wrote: »

Imperial

Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Break Free by 10%

I think this option also sounds intriguing, although could run into the same problem as the block cost reduction as being too situational.

Absolutely to what I bolded. Imperials come in pretty much dead last overall in DPS with Nords only just slightly above them. Both these races feel like they're being pigeon-holed into tanking roles despite the goal supposedly being balancing enough that any race could be viable for any role. My ultimate wish for Imperials is that they'd be viable as battlemages.

Lord_Eomer

@ZOS_Gilliam

I have two imperial characters,

If Imperials do not improve kindly give me 2 race change tokens.

I can not DPS on them anymore.