PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

GildedSun

Benemime wrote: »

I would change this to:

Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Increases your Max Health by 2000. When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500.

That's a lot of stats! Are you ok with only potential health sustain and no magicka or stamina sustain?

BrokenGameMechanics

I'm concerned about the effect immunity passive. Specifically, the Chill immunity. I play a support build Frost Magden in PvP. I make no effort to deal dmg, but focus on Immobilizes, Stuns, Buff/Debuffs.

My Bars are loaded up with Frost skills. Chill gives Immobilize and Minor Main.

If a Breton has Chill immunity he strolls without a care in the world right through my Frost Blockade. 100% immunity to my Minor Maim debuff.

I don't know, what is the percentage of Bretons in EP? Say 30-50% of all EP players basically laugh at my Frost Mag and stroll right through my Blockade? I would literally have to avoid ever fighting EP altogether and limit myself to contending against DC only.

ToRelax

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

I'm concerned about the effect immunity passive. Specifically, the Chill immunity. I play a support build Frost Magden in PvP. I make no effort to deal dmg, but focus on Immobilizes, Stuns, Buff/Debuffs.

My Bars are loaded up with Frost skills. Chill gives Immobilize and Minor Main.

If a Breton has Chill immunity he strolls without a care in the world right through my Frost Blockade. 100% immunity to my Minor Maim debuff.

I don't know, what is the percentage of Bretons in EP? Say 30-50% of all EP players basically laugh at my Frost Mag and stroll right through my Blockade? I would literally have to avoid ever fighting EP altogether and limit myself to contending against DC only.

It's Nords and they are just as immune already. Bretons could use frost glyphs though and achieve the same effect...

Revokus

Would be cool for Imperials to get some magicka bonuses since many imperials are necromancers and mages. It would also fit with the theme of Elsweyr story wise.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

ToRelax wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

I'm concerned about the effect immunity passive. Specifically, the Chill immunity. I play a support build Frost Magden in PvP. I make no effort to deal dmg, but focus on Immobilizes, Stuns, Buff/Debuffs.

My Bars are loaded up with Frost skills. Chill gives Immobilize and Minor Main.

If a Breton has Chill immunity he strolls without a care in the world right through my Frost Blockade. 100% immunity to my Minor Maim debuff.

I don't know, what is the percentage of Bretons in EP? Say 30-50% of all EP players basically laugh at my Frost Mag and stroll right through my Blockade? I would literally have to avoid ever fighting EP altogether and limit myself to contending against DC only.

It's Nords and they are just as immune already. Bretons could use frost glyphs though and achieve the same effect...

Indeed, 5 years into the game and people are still not up on all the mechanics. Been like this since the start.

Silver_Strider

GildedSun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It should be a hybrid race because its lore suggests they are equally adapt at both Magic and Melee combat and because making Imperial a good intermediary race, good for everything but not great in specialized builds would be a good way to handle a pay walled race.

I do factor in the potion CD on Argonians in my suggestion as I've also factored in the extra resources of Imperial as well as their Block cost reduction. An Argonian that goes full on Potion Passive CD with Infused Jewelry, is giving up a minimal of 2610 extra resources vs an Imperial doing the same, giving up only 610 due the the large stat total difference of Imperials vs Argonians. This would bring Argonian sustain up to ~171 regen/second but considering that jewelry traits would also be amplified by % base modifiers, you're looking at a much more substantial resource loss on Argonians than Imperials for what amounts to a regen total of 121 extra regen/sec over Imperial. Then, we factor in Imperials block cost reduction. While the significance of it is overlooked, what can't really be overlooked is that Imperial can essentially drop a Sturdy Armor Trait for something more substantial in its place and on a piece of gear like Shields, changing out Sturdy for Infused would give even more power towards Imperial in terms of Max Resources as that loss is even lower. At that point, you're looking at the 4% healing done on Argonians as truly the only significant difference between them and Imperials (Disease resist is worthless in any practical sense due to the severe lack of Disease Damage in the game, with the only significant form of it coming from Incapacitating Strikes, which undermines the Disease Status Immunity as it applies Major Defile anyways).

I see what you're saying, I appreciate the insight.

I don't think I saw you respond to my question of changing your suggestion from weapon ability to something like direct damage, would that make more sense?

Well, it really wouldn't matter too much on how it procced, so long as it was a reliable way of proccing. My issue with Direct Damage comes from the fact some classes, such as StamDK, don't really have a good method of Direct Damage (in terms of direct damage abilities) at their disposal or if you're on a Healer role since you don't really have a ton of direct damage attacks with you being mostly focused on buffing/healing allies with a handful of attack skills, some of which aren't direct damage but DoTs. Proccing off of Weapon abilities opens up every single weapon skill to be a potential proc and while limited in its own right, I just felt it was the better option overall. As for making it proc from just any form of Direct Damage, I felt the passive was much too powerful if you could just proc it on something like the direct damage of Light/Heavy Attacks that I felt the need to set some form of conditional requirement to it and weapon abilities was the most universal.

Benemime

GildedSun wrote: »

Benemime wrote: »

I would change this to:

Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Increases your Max Health by 2000. When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500.

That's a lot of stats! Are you ok with only potential health sustain and no magicka or stamina sustain?

yes, i don't think we are outshining the other races at all.they got plenty of other useful things on their hands.

Revokus wrote: »

Would be cool for Imperials to get some magicka bonuses since many imperials are necromancers and mages. It would also fit with the theme of Elsweyr story wise.

this. We have The Prophet (Varen Aquilarios) as a skilled imperial "mage", we have Abnur Tharn as a skilled sorcerer, and many sorcerers related to imperial culture, so unfair that we got nothing.

---

I would also change this:

"Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain"

to this:

"Increases Experience gain with any weapon Skill Line by 3%, extra 1% Gold gain"

We are suppose to be the jack-of-all-trades after all.



.

Holycannoli

Tholian1 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Suggestion for imperial: a new racial bonus that affects themselves and their group (so includes when solo) and is additive with diminishing returns so multiple imperials give a greater bonus. It could be a flat damage bonus, a max stat increase, crit chance or crit damage increase, regen increase, I'm not exactly sure yet. But imperials need something. They are a boring, uninspired race locked behind a pay wall that are about to be nerfed to undesirable.

And I think a group bonus makes perfect sense for them. They are imperial. They are all about teamwork and coordination. Empires aren't built without it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SNjnsi_rM

I like this idea. It would give groups an incentive to want Imperial players in their group when running dungeons and trials.

Yep that's exactly what I have in mind. Individually they may not be the best at any one thing but they inspire their teammates like nobody else can.

It would actually give a reason to play the race, beyond simple roleplay.

DeathStalker

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

Holycannoli

DeathStalker wrote: »

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

My guess is nothing will be done. They're not really "testing" the changes and fully intend to implement them as they are, because like usual they aren't commenting on any feedback. Been like that since I can remember.

Toc de Malsvi

DeathStalker wrote: »

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

Read the beginning.

"You’ll notice that we haven’t made any changes to the racial passives in this patch; we are planning to add a few adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. "

DeathStalker

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

Read the beginning.

"You’ll notice that we haven’t made any changes to the racial passives in this patch; we are planning to add a few adjustments in next week’s PTS patch. "

Thank you, I missed that completely.

LiquidPony

Holycannoli wrote: »

DeathStalker wrote: »

So will there be no further adjustments to racial passives based on the given feedback or is an adjustment to racial passives coming in a future PTS week? Because I see nothing in this weeks PTS notes.

My guess is nothing will be done. They're not really "testing" the changes and fully intend to implement them as they are, because like usual they aren't commenting on any feedback. Been like that since I can remember.

It literally says there will be tweaks to the racial passives next week in the patch notes published today.

How long do y'all think it takes to design, implement, test, and package up changes for deployment? The changes have been on PTS for a week. Yeezus.

Holycannoli

Didn't see the patch notes

So we have to wait a week to see how they fix some of the overdone nerfs. I'm looking at you imperials...

GildedSun

Benemime wrote: »

yes, i don't think we are outshining the other races at all.they got plenty of other useful things on their hands.
---
I would also change this:
"Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain"
to this:
"Increases Experience gain with any weapon Skill Line by 3%, extra 1% Gold gain"
We are suppose to be the jack-of-all-trades after all.

To me, if you are pushing hybrid that hard then you should change your suggestion of "When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500" to something like what Silver_Strider suggested: "Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD." Or at least something that gives you sustain in health, magicka, and stamina and not just the health chance proc.

dodgehopper_ESO

elven.were_wolf wrote: »

The only thing bothering me is the wood elf changes.

Stealth detection isn’t good for PvE situations and is hardly used in PvP unless you’re in tight corners, like Imperial City. Very situational.

Reduced stealth detection was PvE friendly and PvP friendly simultaneously by aiding us in the justice system and helping us not get detected in Cyrodiil. Now if we want to do anything Justice related we are pigeon holed into picking a khajiit.

Wood Elves are good theives too in TES lore, so why has this passive been removed? True hunters can detect things, but they can also conceal themseves from threats.

I don’t mind the other changes to wood elf but this one is a big deal for someone who plays a woodelf theif.

Now only ONE race can sneak well AND have a 5% pickpocket chance success to boot for PvE Justice System.

Also, something I’m curious about is wood elves have spinners in the lore that manifest magickal stories, so why hasn’t a magicka based passive been added to wood elf racials like the khajiit?

That's a nice point but no one seems to give a whit whether Argonians were also good thieves, assassins and sappers in lore either.

silvereyes

To those worried about the implications for Bosmer thieves of losing their bonus to sneaking, keep in mind that there are sets to give the same exact bonus:

https://eso-sets.com/set/night-mothers-embrace
https://eso-sets.com/set/night-terror

Thieving doesn't exactly involve a lot of fighting, either, so giving up a 3 or 5 piece bonus isn't unreasonable, if you like that play-style. The speed boost is actually a huge buff to thieves, since you can outrun any guards you want.

Throw in a level 4 vampire passive or Night's Silence set for faster sneaking, and you got yourself a pretty unstoppable thief.

Not saying I'm happy about the Bosmer changes, but the impact on thieving shouldn't be bad.

Edit: This is assuming a stamina Bosmer, of course. If you are running magicka, then those sets will loose you a ton of stats from not wearing Light Armor. So ... don't play a magicka Bosmer thief I guess.

Eiron77

Wood Elf
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: Gain 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: Gain 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Previously, if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve reworked this passive. Since Wood Elves are natural born hunters, we gave them a unique movement speed boost so they could hunt their targets better, or reposition to a more favorable position. Additionally, since the Khajiiti race deals much with adeptness for the shadows, we’ve repurposed the Stealthy passive to be an anti-stealth one.

As a Wood Elf Nightblade main since Beta and beyond, I am happy with "Y'ffre's Endurance" and "Resist Affliction", but am completely against the changes to "Stealthy/Hunter's Eye". Hunter's Eye is not very well thought out at all and it is definitely not, "unique" as you say. It's nearly a copy/paste of the Bow passive ability, Hasty Retreat.

I would suggest the following instead:
(though I'd rather keep my stealthiness, I'm trying to keep in line with your concept)


Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Damage Done in Stealth and to Stealthed/Invisible targets by %. Critical Damage increased by %.

I feel this is more in-line with your concept of the "anti-stealth" and "hunter" race, maintains some of its original identity; and provides some kind of boost when not in stealth or dealing with hidden targets. Also, the ability does not step on the toes of the Khajit revisions.



Additionally, please don't take away boosted stealth damage. If you must take it away from Wood Elves and Khajits, please add it to one/some/all of the following skill lines: Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood.
My main enjoyment out of the game is sneaking, thieving, and killing from the shadows. Please don't take away skills that improve those abilities.

zaria

silvereyes wrote: »

To those worried about the implications for Bosmer thieves of losing their bonus to sneaking, keep in mind that there are sets to give the same exact bonus:

https://eso-sets.com/set/night-mothers-embrace
https://eso-sets.com/set/night-terror

Thieving doesn't exactly involve a lot of fighting, either, so giving up a 3 or 5 piece bonus isn't unreasonable, if you like that play-style. The speed boost is actually a huge buff to thieves, since you can outrun any guards you want.

Throw in a level 4 vampire passive or Night's Silence set for faster sneaking, and you got yourself a pretty unstoppable thief.

Not saying I'm happy about the Bosmer changes, but the impact on thieving shouldn't be bad.

Edit: This is assuming a stamina Bosmer, of course. If you are running magicka, then those sets will loose you a ton of stats from not wearing Light Armor. So ... don't play a magicka Bosmer thief I guess.

Yes, has used this sets on magic builds then with +magic enchants for the DB and TG dailies, later who I farmed for some time.
Only has to remember to swap them out before trying to heal in dungeons

vesselwiththepestle

GildedSun wrote: »

That's a lot of stats! Are you ok with only potential health sustain and no magicka or stamina sustain?

Imperials didn't have Sustain before, although with their 10% stamina bonus they had the highest damage potential as Stamina dps together with Redguards. So you could rationalize "oh, I don't have the sustain, but at least I am hitting as strong as a Redguard". However, now Orcs, Bosmers and Dunmers got buffed stam-dps-wise and Imperials went a places down in the hierarchy. That is sad. If ZOS doesn't want to give them sustain, they should give something else, be it a vaste amount of stats.

I don't like the idea of Imperials buffing everyone with 1k health which is going around here for two reasons:
1. It won't stack (else it'd be OP), so in raids it will be: 1 Imperial is ok (or even wanted), but a second Imperial can stay at home... Compared to that, how many Dunmers, Altmers or Bretons will you have in your raid?
2. It's a very tanky ability, not making dps any better dps.

GildedSun wrote: »

To me, if you are pushing hybrid that hard then you should change your suggestion of "When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500" to something like what Silver_Strider suggested: "Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD." Or at least something that gives you sustain in health, magicka, and stamina and not just the health chance proc.

That is similar to something I suggested earlier. Just add sustain to Red Diamond. Tanks are using weapon abilities (at least Puncture, Low Slash), Healers use it (Combat Prayer, Healing Springs), DPS use it (Stam more than Magicka, but Imperials were favoring Stamina before anyway)... It just needs to be weaker than a Redguard's Sustain, I guess similar to Bosmer's Sustain would be a good fit.

FilteredRiddle

Imperials still need to be looked at; I was very disappointed to see no change in today’s patch notes. Posted this in another thread.

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

They 1000% need to rethink their Imperial changes. Imperial was a good Tank and a good Stam DPS. What they’ve done thus far is uninspired and ruins the race for anything other than mediocre Tanking. I think ZOS really needs to think back to Imperial history, in how they should be shaped.

General:
Imperials, in Lore, are known for their civility, diplomacy, order, and wealth. They are inspired by RL Romans.

Morrowind:
- +10 Speechcraft
- +10 Mercantile
- +10 Long Blade
- +5 Blunt Weapon
- +5 Light Armor
- +5 Hand-to-hand
- Absorb Fatigue 200 pts on target
- Charm 25 to 50 pts for 15 seconds on target

Oblivion:
- +10 Mercantile
- +10 Speechcraft
- +10 Heavy Armor
- +5 Blade
- +5 Blunt
- +5 Hand to Hand
- Absorb Fatigue 100 points on Touch, once per day
- Charm 30 points for 30 seconds on Target, once per day

Skyrim
- +10 Restoration
- +5 Block
- +5 Destruction
- +5 Enchanting
- +5 Heavy Armor
- +5 One-handed
- Anywhere gold coins might be found, Imperials always seem to find a few more, constant
- Calms nearby people for 60 seconds, once per day

The consistent bonuses are to various weapon types, fatigue (stamina), military background, and speech/charming. Therefore, I think a better approach to Imperial, that respects both their lore and utility in ESO, and their place as a paid race that is available to all alliances would be:

Imperial:
- Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → Increases Experience gain in any Melee Skill Line* by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain
- 12% Max Health + 10% Max Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Max Stamina by 2000.
- New Passive → Increase Melee Weapon Damage by 258
- 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750 and restore 950 Stamina.

*Two-Handed, Dual-Wield, and One Hand and Shield

The change to passive one highlights their consistent military excellence and RL inspiration. The change to passive two highlights their consistent armor expertise, and their fatigue bonuses. The change to passive three again highlights their weapon expertise. The change to passive four is a nod to their charming in that they’re metaphorically sapping away at them, and once more speaks to the historical fatigue bonuses.

Only in Skyrim were there any real nods to magic from a player POV, and I would genuinely hate to see Imperial turned into some weird hybrid race so that they could be both crappy Magicka and Stamina DPS. Likewise, while a passive that applied to group members would be neat (e.g. Increases your and up to 11 members Max Health and Max Stamina by 2000), I would only want it if it didn’t lead to the removal of something else. That would be a huge nod to Imperials’ roles as diplomats and traders, however, I’d rather maintain solo potential if it meant losing something.

boaz733

khajiit feels neglected compared to the other races,
the class perks were no fun to play on, it needs a rework
might be a better idea to give it 2190 crit increase and give it back the 10% dmg from stealth.

Toc de Malsvi

Eiron77 wrote: »

Wood Elf
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: Gain 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: Gain 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Previously, if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve reworked this passive. Since Wood Elves are natural born hunters, we gave them a unique movement speed boost so they could hunt their targets better, or reposition to a more favorable position. Additionally, since the Khajiiti race deals much with adeptness for the shadows, we’ve repurposed the Stealthy passive to be an anti-stealth one.

As a Wood Elf Nightblade main since Beta and beyond, I am happy with "Y'ffre's Endurance" and "Resist Affliction", but am completely against the changes to "Stealthy/Hunter's Eye". Hunter's Eye is not very well thought out at all and it is definitely not, "unique" as you say. It's nearly a copy/paste of the Bow passive ability, Hasty Retreat.

I would suggest the following instead:
(though I'd rather keep my stealthiness, I'm trying to keep in line with your concept)


Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Damage Done in Stealth and to Stealthed/Invisible targets by %. Critical Damage increased by %.

I feel this is more in-line with your concept of the "anti-stealth" and "hunter" race, maintains some of its original identity; and provides some kind of boost when not in stealth or dealing with hidden targets. Also, the ability does not step on the toes of the Khajit revisions.



Additionally, please don't take away boosted stealth damage. If you must take it away from Wood Elves and Khajits, please add it to one/some/all of the following skill lines: Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood.
My main enjoyment out of the game is sneaking, thieving, and killing from the shadows. Please don't take away skills that improve those abilities.

As a Woodelf DK main since beta and on nearly all my characters. No, please get rid of almost entirely useless passives tied to stealth/ganking. These passives barely benefit gankers and questing and mislead players as to their actual value.

Eiron77

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Wood Elf
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: Gain 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: Gain 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Previously, if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve reworked this passive. Since Wood Elves are natural born hunters, we gave them a unique movement speed boost so they could hunt their targets better, or reposition to a more favorable position. Additionally, since the Khajiiti race deals much with adeptness for the shadows, we’ve repurposed the Stealthy passive to be an anti-stealth one.

As a Wood Elf Nightblade main since Beta and beyond, I am happy with "Y'ffre's Endurance" and "Resist Affliction", but am completely against the changes to "Stealthy/Hunter's Eye". Hunter's Eye is not very well thought out at all and it is definitely not, "unique" as you say. It's nearly a copy/paste of the Bow passive ability, Hasty Retreat.

I would suggest the following instead:
(though I'd rather keep my stealthiness, I'm trying to keep in line with your concept)


Hunter's Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Increases Damage Done in Stealth and to Stealthed/Invisible targets by %. Critical Damage increased by %.

I feel this is more in-line with your concept of the "anti-stealth" and "hunter" race, maintains some of its original identity; and provides some kind of boost when not in stealth or dealing with hidden targets. Also, the ability does not step on the toes of the Khajit revisions.



Additionally, please don't take away boosted stealth damage. If you must take it away from Wood Elves and Khajits, please add it to one/some/all of the following skill lines: Legerdemain, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood.
My main enjoyment out of the game is sneaking, thieving, and killing from the shadows. Please don't take away skills that improve those abilities.

As a Woodelf DK main since beta and on nearly all my characters. No, please get rid of almost entirely useless passives tied to stealth/ganking. These passives barely benefit gankers and questing and mislead players as to their actual value.

Nope. It is not "almost entirely useless", as I've had a lot of mileage out of the Stealthy passive as have others on this thread. See the devs quote above. Their issue is a loss of effectiveness for non-stealthed bosmer and want to avoid pigeon-holing player's into stealth builds.
Which I can understand as an issue.

My problem with the Hunters Eye passive is the current build has it using a redundant movement increase, in a game where there are lots of options that grant mobility (but very few that do what Stealthy did). As it is currently, my Bosmer already has this ability in the bow skill line and they're creating the same problem they were trying to avoid.

My suggestion is to mix the old with the new. But, if they really must remove the stealth dmg increase, to add it through another source such as the Dark Brotherhood skill line. That way my character doesn't lose effectiveness with its current build. As, there aren't many options for increasing stealth damage at the moment.

GildedSun

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Imperials didn't have Sustain before, although with their 10% stamina bonus they had the highest damage potential as Stamina dps together with Redguards. So you could rationalize "oh, I don't have the sustain, but at least I am hitting as strong as a Redguard". However, now Orcs, Bosmers and Dunmers got buffed stam-dps-wise and Imperials went a places down in the hierarchy. That is sad. If ZOS doesn't want to give them sustain, they should give something else, be it a vaste amount of stats.

Yeah I get that they didn't have it before but if people are wanting it to move into a hybrid role it just sorta makes sense to me to give it a sustain passive for tri stats; that is totally just my opinion though.

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

I don't like the idea of Imperials buffing everyone with 1k health which is going around here for two reasons:
1. It won't stack (else it'd be OP), so in raids it will be: 1 Imperial is ok (or even wanted), but a second Imperial can stay at home... Compared to that, how many Dunmers, Altmers or Bretons will you have in your raid?
2. It's a very tanky ability, not making dps any better dps.

I'm not sure that I read that anywhere exactly but I do kind of like the idea of a group buff of some kind, it seems very interesting and is at least cool in concept to me. What kind of buff it should be though, I'm not sure...

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

That is similar to something I suggested earlier. Just add sustain to Red Diamond. Tanks are using weapon abilities (at least Puncture, Low Slash), Healers use it (Combat Prayer, Healing Springs), DPS use it (Stam more than Magicka, but Imperials were favoring Stamina before anyway)... It just needs to be weaker than a Redguard's Sustain, I guess similar to Bosmer's Sustain would be a good fit.

I'm not up with all of the lore but is there any lore specific to imperials and Red Diamond or are people just attached to the name? Just curious to me...

Holycannoli

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Only in Skyrim were there any real nods to magic from a player POV, and I would genuinely hate to see Imperial turned into some weird hybrid race so that they could be both crappy Magicka and Stamina DPS. Likewise, while a passive that applied to group members would be neat (e.g. Increases your and up to 11 members Max Health and Max Stamina by 2000), I would only want it if it didn’t lead to the removal of something else. That would be a huge nod to Imperials’ roles as diplomats and traders, however, I’d rather maintain solo potential if it meant losing something.

It would have to be a bonus that applied to them when solo and their group when grouped.

Benemime

FilteredRiddle wrote: »

Imperials still need to be looked at; I was very disappointed to see no change in today’s patch notes. Posted this in another thread.

Me too. I don't think they are reading this thread either, we are talking for ages about imperials but what do they say about it on patch notes? This:

We were relatively happy with the performance of the Imperial races previously

I don't think they intend to make imperials a jack-of-all-trades at all.

FraPal93

The flat value of resource passives is gonna be just another nerf to the already underperforming magicka build, pls change it

silvereyes

I did some testing on PTS to compare the speed bonuses/sprint cost reduction of Orcs Swift Warrior passive vs Bosmer's Hunter's Eye roll dodge speed boost passive, to see how they handled and which I preferred.

Test Setup

• The test course ran in a mostly straight line in Rawl'ka, from the well in the middle of town just over the second bridge leading out of town.
• No speed sets or swift jewelry were used.
• The test run was short enough for each to complete in under 30 seconds, but long enough to simulate a longish PvP pursuit, or a run between farming nodes.
• I repeated the test runs 10 times for Orc and 10 times for Bosmer
• Both characters were Nightblades with all class passives.
• Additionally, both characters had all passives for the following skill lines:
  • Racial
  • Bow
  • Undaunted
  • Medium Armor
• Both characters used the exact same gear
• All attribute points in stamina.
• All gear was gold.
• All armor was medium, impen, with all passives taken
• All armor had tri stat prismatic glyphs
• All jewelry was robust.
• Sets consisted of a cookie-cutter PvP setup:
  • 2 Bloodspawn
  • 5 pc Bone Pirate
  • 3 pc Spriggans
  • 2 pc Masters Bow
• Same blue max stam+health food on both.
• Warrior mundus stone

Champion Points

With the Bosmer passive being activated by roll dodging, I found it best to use different Champion point distributions for each race:

Bosmer:

• 72 Tumbling + 3 Shade (The Shadow)
• 120 points in The Lover tree for the Windrunning bonus (2% movement speed increase)
• 71 Sprinter (The Tower)

Orc:

• 120 points in The Lover tree for the Windrunning bonus (2% movement speed increase)
• 100 Sprinter (The Tower)
• The rest makes no speed or endurance difference and can be distributed however you like.

Race Results

• Orc time: 18 seconds, every time
  https://youtu.be/to3IgbWbqkk
• Bosmer time: 17 seconds, every time
  https://youtu.be/69rHrFwxVdY

Edit: I previously reported that Orc might be faster due to a new test, but I double-checked, and that test was faulty because I accidentally had on some swift jewelry from my farming sets.

Stamina Burn Rate

Bosmer

With Champion Points

• Stamina Used: 36.5k-22.4k = 14.1k (38.6%)
• Time Elapsed: 17 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 14.2k stamina / 17 seconds ~ 830 stamina / second

No CP

• Stamina Used: 31.6k-1k = 30.6k (96.8%)
• Time Elapsed: 17 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 30.6k stamina / 17 seconds = 1800 stamina / second

Orc

With Champion Points

• Stamina Used: 35k - 23.8k = 11.2k (32%)
• Time Elapsed: 18 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 11.2k / 18 seconds ~ 620 stamina / second

No CP

• Stamina Used: 30k - 12.3k = 17.7k (59%)
• Time Elapsed: 18 seconds
• Stamina Burn: 17.7k / 18 seconds ~ 980 stamina / second

Observations

• Without any speed gear on, the speed advantage of Hunter's Eye is noticable.
• I did a separate test with node farming gear on (Jailbreaker, Fiords) and Major Expedition up (rapids), and the difference completely disappeared. Both races were at speed cap.
• There's a skill component to taking full advantage of Hunters-Eye. I had to practice a bit before I got consistent enough to start recording data.
  • Mapping roll dodge to mouse up helps immensely.
  • The trick is to wait just past the 4 second mark from the start of the dodge roll.
  • If you roll again before 4 seconds, you are hit with a 33% extra cost penalty
  • If you roll again too long after 4 seconds, then you lose uptime on Hunter's Eye and the Bow passive Hasty Retreat.
    Edit: As Adenoma notes below, Hasty Retreat lasts a bit longer than Hunter's Eye or the dodge roll fatigue debuff, due to it's 4 seconds starting at the *end* of the roll, and Hunter's Eye's 4 seconds starting at the *beginning* of the roll. I would personally prefer it if Hunter's Eye started at the end as well.
• Since the Orc's speed boost is activated by sprinting, it's easy to achieve 100% speed efficiency with zero thought. Just hold down Shift + Up.
• Both felt very fast, but the extra graphical effects on the Bosmer made me feel superhumanly fast.
• With all the dodge rolling, the Bosmer was much more evasive. Not only was there the dodging itself, but the immunity to snares and the Phase passive's added resistance.

Edit: See Stamina Burn Rate section for stamina figures.

Conclusions

Which is better for farming?

Orcs wearing Fiords, Jailbreaker and three Swift jewelry are objectively best for farming.

• They reach 193% of base run speed while sprinting, just 7% shy of the 200% cap.
  That's 100% for base run speed + 40% for sprint + 10% Swift Warrior + (3 * 6%) Swift Jewelry + 10% Jailbreaker + 15% Fiords.
  If they use Rapid Maneuver whenever mounted to travel between far nodes, any leftover Major Expedition buff will basically put them at speed cap.
• Bosmers only get their speed boost 75% of the time, since 1 out of every 4 seconds, at best, is spent dodge rolling.
• Bosmers will never achieve even 75% uptime on their speed boost, since many nodes are closer than 4 seconds apart while sprinting.
• Bosmer wearing only Jailbreaker or two Swift jewels will reach the +100% speed cap (Sprinting (+40%) + Hunter's Eye (+20%) + Bow Hasty Retreat (+30%) + Jailbreaker (+10%)). No further Swift traits or sets can make them go any faster.

Which is better for PVE?

I'm not really certain.

For sustain, and for flexibility with Champion Points, I prefer Orc's Swift Warrior passive. Most mechanics that involve needing to get somewhere fast involve sprinting, and you'll appreciate having the extra stamina once you get there, as well as not needing to roll dodge to activate your speed.

That said, it's hard to overestimate the value of being able to move quickly and dodge in the same fluid motion. You probably won't need to dodge roll more than twice to get where you are going, so if your stamina pool can take that hit, it's a very nice passive indeed.

Hunter's Eye is objectively better for damage-dealing combat itself, because if you are doing damage, then you aren't sprinting. But you also can't afford to roll dodge every 4 seconds and hope to sustain your damage, so it's more of a situational perk.

Which is better for PvP?

I haven't tested this out in real-world scenarios, and I'm not particularly good at PvP in any case, so it's hard to say, but I have some thoughts.

My main worry about Hunter's Eye is all that dodge rolling. It seems like you could run out of stamina pretty quickly in a prolonged fight.

It probably depends on a lot of factors. Ironically enough, if you are playing a ranged, hit-and-run style, Orc might be better. Not needing to track a 4 second timer and being able to run longer without running out of resources is a huge advantage.

However, I can also easily see the evasiveness and speed of Hunter's Eye being the difference between being able to get to a safe place to stealth and dying.

For a melee brawler style, the Hunter's Eye passive would allow you to dodge and then tactically reposition very quickly when needed.

For both styles, however, Nightblades already have Shadow Image, Vampires have Elusive Mist, Sorcs have Streak, everyone has Shuffle, etc. There are plenty of evasion tools in the kit already. The main advantage of Hunter's Eye, then, becomes freeing up a slot on your bar.

Edit: After doing some no-CP tests, the difference is pretty stark. The built-in cost reduction with Orc makes a big difference, as well as not dodge rolling. For No CP, Orc is far superior in my opinion.

Final Thoughts on Hunter's Eye

Pros:

• Hunter's Eye's speed bonus is very powerful for a second-tier racial passive.
• Suited to a fast, evasion-oriented play style
• Fun way to feel mobile without needing to take up a slot for a mobility skill.

Cons:

• I worry that it will be too powerful for PvP CP campaigns.
• Without any Steed mundus or Swift jewelry, a Bosmer can now outrun anyone, at least for about 30-40 seconds.
• For no-CP campaigns and Battlegrounds, Hunter's Eye is too expensive to use for escape. It's usefulness is limited to repositioning quickly.
• Getting into a rhythm with roll-dodging can be difficult if there are any interruptions to the flow.
• Orc and Bosmer's non-stat-based racial passives are too similar to give them enough racial identity. The fact that I had to run tests to determine which of the "speed" bonuses was better for what kind of proves that.

Adenoma

@ZOS_Gilliam , unlike hasty retreat the wood elf passive for speed applies at the start of dodge roll and is used up during the animation. That ends up giving you more like 2.5s of speed.