PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Koronach

Silver_Strider wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@wheem_ESO make Nords completely immune to Wall of Frost roots in PvP,

Been like that the whole time bud and if any other race enchants one of their jewelry with frost resistance, they too are immue to chilled.

I don't recall Nords being labeled as explicitly immune on live (and it's not mentioned in the patch notes), but I could be mistaken. And if resists are granting full immunity to the status effect, that would seem to not be working as intended.

Either way, there aren't very many (any?) Nords at all in the high MMR PC-NA Battlegrounds right now, but if the currently proposed changes go through there just might be. While I'm not a fan of total immunity to status effects for any races, I think the bigger issue is roots being too frequent, with too little counter options (especially for Magicka builds).

No, it's working fully as intended though I can't remember exactly when it was confirmed by ZOS that Resistance = Status Immunity. Pretty much, every race with a resistance (other than Physical/Spell Resistance) via their racial passives have had full on immunity to the status effects of their resisted passive.

Nords have always been immune to Chilled from Ice
Dunmer have always been immune to Burn from Fire
Argonian and Bosmer have always been immune to Defile from Disease and Poison from Poisons

Agreed, I like how I read about them wanting to stay true to the lore. I don't think they ever played a TES game before ESO to be honest. Even ESO has quests that talks about our poison resistance and disease resistance. Yep true to the lore alright, oh yeah and lets not forget the books that mention it as well.

joaaocaampos

Reading feedbacks (on all topics), I edited my initial post several times.

After 4 days, this is my last edition! @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Argonian

• Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Player Comment:

Basically, an accurate Resistance: 2310 → 2640 (4%) for Argonian (Disease) – as described above –, Wood Elf (Poison), Breton (Spell), Dark Elf (Flame), Nord (Cold), and Imperial (Physical)!

Beyond accurate Resistance, there are minor changes in some Races.

You will see all this below.

Wood Elf

• Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 4 seconds.

Breton

• Spell Attunement: Gain 2310 2640 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.

Dark Elf

• Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

• Tough: Increases your Max Health by 2000 and your Physical Resistance by 2640.
  ZOS, it's not 2310 nor 3960, and this buff is needed!
• Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina and Max Magicka by 2000.

Khajiit

• Robustness: Increases your Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 100. and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Nord

• Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.

Orc

• Craftsman: Increases experience gain with the Heavy Armor Skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting Inspiration gained and reduces your gathering time by 10%.
• At first I suggested increasing the Max Health and Max Stamina values to 1000 500, but I've noticed that Orcs now has Weapon Damage (with Swift Warrior) and sustain (with Unflinching). Maybe orcs are in a good position right now and these increases are not necessary.

And that's it!

AerionMagnus

Imperials are VERY PROFICIENT WITH MAGIC in the lore. They are famous for their mages and always have been.

Why is this being unaddressed if you are looking to remain lore friendly?

They underperform in everything.

Lord_Eomer

AerionMagnus wrote: »

Imperials are VERY PROFICIENT WITH MAGIC in the lore. They are famous for their mages and always have been.

Why is this being unaddressed if you are looking to remain lore friendly?

They underperform in everything.

Infact Abnur Tharn was Battle Mage!

Imperial deserves to be Battle Mages not just becoming Tank roles or Stam DD puppets!

FineFeathered

Differences on my Breton (in her bashing about gear, not in heal gear) on live and on PTS:

All other things being the same, food, points, etc, just reflecting new passives:

STAT...........................Before.............After..........Change
Max Magicka...............35,724............35,252.........-472
Magicka Recov..............1,416..............1,578.........+168
Max Health..................16,978............18,336........+1356
Spell Resist..................16,642............14,992........-1650

Overall, this is lore unfriendly, as Bretons are supposed to be resistant to magicka. Making them good against other mages. We've now lost that only distinction. We've also lost Max magicka (which is used to determine hit, iirc) and while we gain recovery, and health, those changes are generic and almost eliminate any reason to play this race.

Instead of making a race better, you've eliminated it's one distinction and genericized the rest. (I have only shown the changes, not the other stats) and I already know the char is not optimized, so this is about comparison, not meta or builds.

What made a Breton distinctive has been given to the Nord (Spell Resist to the nord is quite a bit more than what you have done to the Breton) and as a magicka focused character, you've nerfed their strength.

Vertilvius

FineFeathered wrote: »

Differences on my Breton (in her bashing about gear, not in heal gear) on live and on PTS:

All other things being the same, food, points, etc, just reflecting new passives:

STAT...........................Before.............After..........Change
Max Magicka...............35,724............35,252.........-472
Magicka Recov..............1,416..............1,578.........+168
Max Health..................16,978............18,336........+1356
Spell Resist..................16,642............14,992........-1650

Overall, this is lore unfriendly, as Bretons are supposed to be resistant to magicka. Making them good against other mages. We've now lost that only distinction. We've also lost Max magicka (which is used to determine hit, iirc) and while we gain recovery, and health, those changes are generic and almost eliminate any reason to play this race.

Instead of making a race better, you've eliminated it's one distinction and genericized the rest. (I have only shown the changes, not the other stats) and I already know the char is not optimized, so this is about comparison, not meta or builds.

What made a Breton distinctive has been given to the Nord (Spell Resist to the nord is quite a bit more than what you have done to the Breton) and as a magicka focused character, you've nerfed their strength.

I agree with you that it would be better for the lore to give them the spell resist but I don't agree that this race will be useless. Bretons will actually be much better off with these changes.

Bargonauts

I'd love to see Orc get more HP. My orc tanks worked amazingly in dungeons and trials because the sprint bonus helps them a lot, but the nerf to their max HP makes it harder to still wear things like Ebon/Alkosh and hit high enough health numbers for vTrials and vDLC dungeons. While the quickfire answer would be to throw a selfish set like Plague on, the beauty of live tank Orcs is that they can sprint around and corral mobs amazingly and wear group support sets without a huge chunk of HP gone. With the teeny amount of HP orcs have, it becomes harder to continue wearing group support sets while still being in a comfortable amount of HP.

Extra HP on orcs would help stamDPS (more HP as they use Dubious) and tanks alike - even if ZOS nerfs the offensive aspects a bit, more HP would be lovely.

Nords are quite crazy for tanks - the ultigen is incredible, and the extra resists make them much more chunky. They will most likely have a monopoly on groups where the tanks like to be chunky without sacrificing group buff sets, instead of being chunky by wearing Plague Doctor or other selfish sets.

Truthsnark

Bosmer feedback -

I've played a Bosmer thief since 2014. I don't PVP, raid, or do anything that requires me to pay any attention to numbers or parses, so I can't speak to that aspect and candidly, I don't really care what is done there.

Removing the Bosmer stealth detection radius reduction that was useful to both PVE and PVP and replacing it with one that's only useful in PVP has significantly impacted my playstyle and made the game less fun for me. I've spent almost all my time on PTS since the patch dropped trying this out, and it's a big enough difference that my character doesn't feel like my character anymore.

Bosmer stealth and thieves are legendary and an integral part of their culture. I fail to see how your goals of making more races viable in more situations are accomplished by loading Khajiit up with all the stealth passives and leaving nothing to Bosmer. You've created a hard divide between the race for PVE and the race for PVP that didn't exist before. What reason would anyone have to choose a Bosmer for thieving now?

Please return the 3 meter stealth detection reduction to Bosmer. You can't tell me it's overpowered, Khajiit will have five meters AND their bonus to pickpocketing! I ran a Khajiit thief on PTS and nobody could detect me even when I was standing immediately in front of them with a stealth detection reduction set on. That's crazy.

I'm a PVE casual who spends a lot of money in the crown store on fluff for my thief, and I'm getting pretty tired of having stuff taken away from me for PVP reasons.

SilentFox22

My feedback...

Get rid of all racial passives...period!

Holycannoli

Suggestion for imperial: a new racial bonus that affects themselves and their group (so includes when solo) and is additive with diminishing returns so multiple imperials give a greater bonus. It could be a flat damage bonus, a max stat increase, crit chance or crit damage increase, regen increase, I'm not exactly sure yet. But imperials need something. They are a boring, uninspired race locked behind a pay wall that are about to be nerfed to undesirable.

And I think a group bonus makes perfect sense for them. They are imperial. They are all about teamwork and coordination. Empires aren't built without it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SNjnsi_rM

Alucardmike

I am not playing on PC, but I am scared, that my Bosmer is unplayable for me, so I hope my fears are allowed.

I am one of the very rare roleplay gamers on XBox.
I am playing a Bosmer, as always. (Since Morrowind, I only have played these race)
And now one of the main characteristics of a Bosmer is deleted? What next? Removing bows from Bosmer?

My character is a merchant, which has lot of financial problems, so he had to start to steal. Now he is one of the best thieves in the Dominion.
He lives in Eldenroot and follows the green pact.
He is also loyal to the dominion and does his military service in Cyrodiil. But he is not very good in fighting, so he is more or less a scout. Because he is good in sneaking.

So, dear ZOS, you might see, what will happen to a player like me.
I do not fight PVE (until I have to, if I am attacked)
I do not fight PVP (only doing my service for the dominion)
All I do, is running around, buying and selling. After that, I become the bad boy and clear the houses of the arogant Altmer.

But with the changes, nearly 80-90% of my character is not anymore. So I can't play.

Please do not destroy everything I loved in this game. Because fighting is not interesting for me.

I hope you have a heart and will hear my sad fears.

GildedSun

My Thoughts for Imperial (changes I've been thinking about):

Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes.
Tough: 12% Max Health → Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 1500.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500.
Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → Imperial Grit: Increases your Max Health by 1500. Blocking an attack Restores 750 Health, Magicka, or Stamina depending on which resource is lowest; this effect can occur once every 5 seconds.(to clarify: the restoration part should restore whatever resource is currently lowest % wise, meaning if you had no stamina it would restore 750 stamina)

I think this helps break the imperials out of the mold of just being stam race when multiple people reference the lore talking about imperials being battle mages as well. The tri stat increase reflects their ability to be recruited by any alliance and the second part of Imperial Grit helps with sustain and follows the dev notes of being able to push back when being under pressure.

I will admit I'm not expert on balancing and the restorative number of Imperial Grit might need to go up or down but feels more interesting to me than just a block/bash cost reduction.

Lord_Eomer

GildedSun wrote: »

My Thoughts for Imperial (changes I've been thinking about):

Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes.
Tough: 12% Max Health → Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 1500.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500.
Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → Imperial Grit: Increases your Max Health by 1500. Blocking an attack Restores 750 Health, Magicka, or Stamina depending on which resource is lowest; this effect can occur once every 5 seconds.(to clarify: the restoration part should restore whatever resource is currently lowest % wise, meaning if you had no stamina it would restore 750 stamina)

I think this helps break the imperials out of the mold of just being stam race when multiple people reference the lore talking about imperials being battle mages as well. The tri stat increase reflects their ability to be recruited by any alliance and the second part of Imperial Grit helps with sustain and follows the dev notes of being able to push back when being under pressure.

I will admit I'm not expert on balancing and the restorative number of Imperial Grit might need to go up or down but feels more interesting to me than just a block/bash cost reduction.

Well you want no one to do DD on imerial, they should not be pure tanking race

FrancisCrawford

Indeed. ZoS may regret that it gave two races the same special role of being great PvE thieves, but the solution is NOT to take that away from one of them 5 years into the life of the game.

Truthsnark wrote: »

Bosmer feedback -

I've played a Bosmer thief since 2014. I don't PVP, raid, or do anything that requires me to pay any attention to numbers or parses, so I can't speak to that aspect and candidly, I don't really care what is done there.

Removing the Bosmer stealth detection radius reduction that was useful to both PVE and PVP and replacing it with one that's only useful in PVP has significantly impacted my playstyle and made the game less fun for me. I've spent almost all my time on PTS since the patch dropped trying this out, and it's a big enough difference that my character doesn't feel like my character anymore.

Bosmer stealth and thieves are legendary and an integral part of their culture. I fail to see how your goals of making more races viable in more situations are accomplished by loading Khajiit up with all the stealth passives and leaving nothing to Bosmer. You've created a hard divide between the race for PVE and the race for PVP that didn't exist before. What reason would anyone have to choose a Bosmer for thieving now?

Please return the 3 meter stealth detection reduction to Bosmer. You can't tell me it's overpowered, Khajiit will have five meters AND their bonus to pickpocketing! I ran a Khajiit thief on PTS and nobody could detect me even when I was standing immediately in front of them with a stealth detection reduction set on. That's crazy.

I'm a PVE casual who spends a lot of money in the crown store on fluff for my thief, and I'm getting pretty tired of having stuff taken away from me for PVP reasons.

Tasear

Altmer

Changes will shift healers favorably for this class, but not bad.

Breton

Will definitely be a popular for sustain

Dummer

I think you are doing hybrid wrong. It just isn't going to work well for hybrids

orc
the lost of health is sad, but new passive feels intresting

Imperial
very solid traditional tank feel

Bosmer
Is perfect, though one of the racial is bugged

Tholian1

Holycannoli wrote: »

Suggestion for imperial: a new racial bonus that affects themselves and their group (so includes when solo) and is additive with diminishing returns so multiple imperials give a greater bonus. It could be a flat damage bonus, a max stat increase, crit chance or crit damage increase, regen increase, I'm not exactly sure yet. But imperials need something. They are a boring, uninspired race locked behind a pay wall that are about to be nerfed to undesirable.

And I think a group bonus makes perfect sense for them. They are imperial. They are all about teamwork and coordination. Empires aren't built without it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SNjnsi_rM

I like this idea. It would give groups an incentive to want Imperial players in their group when running dungeons and trials.

GildedSun

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Well you want no one to do DD on imerial, they should not be pure tanking race

Changing from 10% chance on attack to heal to what I suggested means imperials can no longer attack or do dd? I don't see it but then again I was just suggesting something that seemed better that was ZOS was proposing in my opinion.

What are thoughts as to what should be changed?

Silver_Strider

GildedSun wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Well you want no one to do DD on imerial, they should not be pure tanking race

Changing from 10% chance on attack to heal to what I suggested means imperials can no longer attack or do dd? I don't see it but then again I was just suggesting something that seemed better that was ZOS was proposing in my opinion.

What are thoughts as to what should be changed?

The resource restore is limited to blocking, something that only a Tank can make a lot of use of because blocking on a Magic or Stamina character that isn't invested into blocking will almost instantly chew thru your resources at a much quicker rate than your suggestions restores, being totally worthless on DPS and Healer Specs, whereas at least now Red Diamond provides a somewhat decent heal for all specs to utilize, despite it's unreliable nature.

My suggestions

Toughness: 2k Health
Conditioning: Changed into Imperial Mettle: 1000 Magic+Stamina
Red Diamond: Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Block/Bash by 5%.

The divide in Magic and Stamina is both lore friendly as well as making it so that Imperials have more well rounded options in their choice of roles, without favoring 1 side or being limited to just tanking. Couple this with a tri-stat restore effect akin to 60 regen/sec and Imperials become a strong overall race but not so powerful that it completely eclipses any race in any particular field. I've been fine tuning this idea around the forums, doing the math to try and keep the passives as balanced as possible in relation to other races so that Imperial gets a decent shot at a buff and a more useful overall role in the game, which is only fair considering it is a pay walled race and all.

hakan

Aside from imperials underwhelming and boring passives which should be changed, i would like a speed bonus for dunmer. attack speed or sneak speed would be awesome. and that ruination's spell damage part should be 330ish dmg.

TheRealPotoroo

Truthsnark wrote: »

Bosmer feedback -

I've played a Bosmer thief since 2014. I don't PVP, raid, or do anything that requires me to pay any attention to numbers or parses, so I can't speak to that aspect and candidly, I don't really care what is done there.

Removing the Bosmer stealth detection radius reduction that was useful to both PVE and PVP and replacing it with one that's only useful in PVP has significantly impacted my playstyle and made the game less fun for me. I've spent almost all my time on PTS since the patch dropped trying this out, and it's a big enough difference that my character doesn't feel like my character anymore.

Bosmer stealth and thieves are legendary and an integral part of their culture. I fail to see how your goals of making more races viable in more situations are accomplished by loading Khajiit up with all the stealth passives and leaving nothing to Bosmer. You've created a hard divide between the race for PVE and the race for PVP that didn't exist before. What reason would anyone have to choose a Bosmer for thieving now?

Please return the 3 meter stealth detection reduction to Bosmer. You can't tell me it's overpowered, Khajiit will have five meters AND their bonus to pickpocketing! I ran a Khajiit thief on PTS and nobody could detect me even when I was standing immediately in front of them with a stealth detection reduction set on. That's crazy.

I'm a PVE casual who spends a lot of money in the crown store on fluff for my thief, and I'm getting pretty tired of having stuff taken away from me for PVP reasons.

This. Replacing a useful PVE passive with a questionable PVP one is bizarre in and of itself. That's even before we get to matters of lore. ZOS say they want to stay true to lore but then they give us this sort of garbage.

Like you I have a PVE Bosmer thief. Like you I do not PVP. I'm fed up with ZOS arrogantly refusing to acknowledge the reality that PVE and PVP are two different games and they must be balanced separately.

If ZOS had a clue they'd be putting their efforts into implementing a dressing room system wherein players can setup completely separate PVE and PVP builds (everything: attributes, skills, inventory, CP, the lot), which they can swap between with one click and no cost. Only then will ZOS be able to balance each mode properly. In the meantime, hands off my Bosmer. If only one race is to get stealth bonuses then it lorewise it should be them, even ahead of the Khajiit (and I also have a Khajiit thief so hands off him too!).

Hey, devs! Read this post about how to redo racial passives made by someone who actually plays and understands the game: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5767117/#Comment_5767117

GildedSun

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The resource restore is limited to blocking, something that only a Tank can make a lot of use of because blocking on a Magic or Stamina character that isn't invested into blocking will almost instantly chew thru your resources at a much quicker rate than your suggestions restores, being totally worthless on DPS and Healer Specs, whereas at least now Red Diamond provides a somewhat decent heal for all specs to utilize, despite it's unreliable nature.

My suggestions

Toughness: 2k Health
Conditioning: Changed into Imperial Mettle: 1000 Magic+Stamina
Red Diamond: Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Block/Bash by 5%.

The divide in Magic and Stamina is both lore friendly as well as making it so that Imperials have more well rounded options in their choice of roles, without favoring 1 side or being limited to just tanking. Couple this with a tri-stat restore effect akin to 60 regen/sec and Imperials become a strong overall race but not so powerful that it completely eclipses any race in any particular field. I've been fine tuning this idea around the forums, doing the math to try and keep the passives as balanced as possible in relation to other races so that Imperial gets a decent shot at a buff and a more useful overall role in the game, which is only fair considering it is a pay walled race and all.

Interesting!

Should it just be a weapon ability though that procs Red Diamond? Also, isn't the block cost reduction a little bland? I was thinking people didn't like it, but I could be misunderstanding.

I've read an idea about imperials getting a buff while in a group, sort of like a standing together thing lore wise, that sounded interesting. Like buff everyone's recovery stats by X or increase everyone's resistances by X. I found it more interesting than the block cost reduction but not sure how it would be balanced.

Samsquanch

GildedSun wrote: »

My Thoughts for Imperial (changes I've been thinking about):

Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes.
Tough: 12% Max Health → Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 1500.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500.
Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → Imperial Grit: Increases your Max Health by 1500. Blocking an attack Restores 750 Health, Magicka, or Stamina depending on which resource is lowest; this effect can occur once every 5 seconds.(to clarify: the restoration part should restore whatever resource is currently lowest % wise, meaning if you had no stamina it would restore 750 stamina)

I think this helps break the imperials out of the mold of just being stam race when multiple people reference the lore talking about imperials being battle mages as well. The tri stat increase reflects their ability to be recruited by any alliance and the second part of Imperial Grit helps with sustain and follows the dev notes of being able to push back when being under pressure.

I will admit I'm not expert on balancing and the restorative number of Imperial Grit might need to go up or down but feels more interesting to me than just a block/bash cost reduction.

Solid.

Silver_Strider

GildedSun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

The resource restore is limited to blocking, something that only a Tank can make a lot of use of because blocking on a Magic or Stamina character that isn't invested into blocking will almost instantly chew thru your resources at a much quicker rate than your suggestions restores, being totally worthless on DPS and Healer Specs, whereas at least now Red Diamond provides a somewhat decent heal for all specs to utilize, despite it's unreliable nature.

My suggestions

Toughness: 2k Health
Conditioning: Changed into Imperial Mettle: 1000 Magic+Stamina
Red Diamond: Restore 300 Health, Magic and Stamina upon activation of a Weapon ability. 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Block/Bash by 5%.

The divide in Magic and Stamina is both lore friendly as well as making it so that Imperials have more well rounded options in their choice of roles, without favoring 1 side or being limited to just tanking. Couple this with a tri-stat restore effect akin to 60 regen/sec and Imperials become a strong overall race but not so powerful that it completely eclipses any race in any particular field. I've been fine tuning this idea around the forums, doing the math to try and keep the passives as balanced as possible in relation to other races so that Imperial gets a decent shot at a buff and a more useful overall role in the game, which is only fair considering it is a pay walled race and all.

Interesting!

Should it just be a weapon ability though that procs Red Diamond? Also, isn't the block cost reduction a little bland? I was thinking people didn't like it, but I could be misunderstanding.

I've read an idea about imperials getting a buff while in a group, sort of like a standing together thing lore wise, that sounded interesting. Like buff everyone's recovery stats by X or increase everyone's resistances by X. I found it more interesting than the block cost reduction but not sure how it would be balanced.

I can't speak for everyone in relation to the Block cost reduction but I don't think that it's bland but rather the current iteration of Red Diamond coupled with the Cost Reduction is just bad from a statistical standpoint and it's off putting as a result since it still feels like a lackluster Tank racial in comparison to other races. Changing it into being a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect only slightly weaker to Argonian potion passive (60 Regen/sec vs 80 Regen/sec), with a little extra block sustain on top makes Red Diamond into a useful Passive that would allow Imperial to branch outside of the Tanking role into DPS and Healer roles effectively but not be so powerful in those roles as opposed to Races that are more situated for them. An Imperial Healer will never be as powerful as a Breton Healer, its Stamina DPS wouldn't have the raw strength of Orcs, its Magic DPS won't be as good as an Altmer and in Tank roles, Nord offers more group utility but less sustain/stats than Imperial, while having less sustain than Argonians but more raw stats so that it's an overall balanced Race capable of fulfilling every role to a decent capacity, which is how a pay walled race should be, a perfect Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

GildedSun

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone in relation to the Block cost reduction but I don't think that it's bland but rather the current iteration of Red Diamond coupled with the Cost Reduction is just bad from a statistical standpoint and it's off putting as a result since it still feels like a lackluster Tank racial in comparison to other races. Changing it into being a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect only slightly weaker to Argonian potion passive (60 Regen/sec vs 80 Regen/sec), with a little extra block sustain on top makes Red Diamond into a useful Passive that would allow Imperial to branch outside of the Tanking role into DPS and Healer roles effectively but not be so powerful in those roles as opposed to Races that are more situated for them. An Imperial Healer will never be as powerful as a Breton Healer, it's Stamina DPS wouldn't have the raw strength of Orcs, it's Magic DPS won't be as good as an Altmer and in Tank roles, Nord offers more group utility but less sustain/stats than Imperial, while having less sustain than Argonians but more raw stats so that it's an overall balanced Race capable of fulfilling every role to a decent capacity, which is how a pay walled race should be, a perfect Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

So it should be a hybrid race? Just asking, not trying to be smart or anything.

Also you compared your suggestion to the Argonian passive, the Argonian passive can potentially be a bit stronger if people go into potion cd right? Does that affect your suggested numbers for imperial any?

Interesting thoughts nonetheless!

Silver_Strider

GildedSun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone in relation to the Block cost reduction but I don't think that it's bland but rather the current iteration of Red Diamond coupled with the Cost Reduction is just bad from a statistical standpoint and it's off putting as a result since it still feels like a lackluster Tank racial in comparison to other races. Changing it into being a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect only slightly weaker to Argonian potion passive (60 Regen/sec vs 80 Regen/sec), with a little extra block sustain on top makes Red Diamond into a useful Passive that would allow Imperial to branch outside of the Tanking role into DPS and Healer roles effectively but not be so powerful in those roles as opposed to Races that are more situated for them. An Imperial Healer will never be as powerful as a Breton Healer, it's Stamina DPS wouldn't have the raw strength of Orcs, it's Magic DPS won't be as good as an Altmer and in Tank roles, Nord offers more group utility but less sustain/stats than Imperial, while having less sustain than Argonians but more raw stats so that it's an overall balanced Race capable of fulfilling every role to a decent capacity, which is how a pay walled race should be, a perfect Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

So it should be a hybrid race? Just asking, not trying to be smart or anything.

Also you compared your suggestion to the Argonian passive, the Argonian passive can potentially be a bit stronger if people go into potion cd right? Does that affect your suggested numbers for imperial any?

Interesting thoughts nonetheless!

It should be a hybrid race because its lore suggests they are equally adapt at both Magic and Melee combat and because making Imperial a good intermediary race, good for everything but not great in specialized builds would be a good way to handle a pay walled race.

I do factor in the potion CD on Argonians in my suggestion as I've also factored in the extra resources of Imperial as well as their Block cost reduction. An Argonian that goes full on Potion Passive CD with Infused Jewelry, is giving up a minimal of 2610 extra resources vs an Imperial doing the same, giving up only 610 due the the large stat total difference of Imperials vs Argonians. This would bring Argonian sustain up to ~171 regen/second but considering that jewelry traits would also be amplified by % base modifiers, you're looking at a much more substantial resource loss on Argonians than Imperials for what amounts to a regen total of 121 extra regen/sec over Imperial. Then, we factor in Imperials block cost reduction. While the significance of it is overlooked, what can't really be overlooked is that Imperial can essentially drop a Sturdy Armor Trait for something more substantial in its place and on a piece of gear like Shields, changing out Sturdy for Infused would give even more power towards Imperial in terms of Max Resources as that loss is even lower. At that point, you're looking at the 4% healing done on Argonians as truly the only significant difference between them and Imperials (Disease resist is worthless in any practical sense due to the severe lack of Disease Damage in the game, with the only significant form of it coming from Incapacitating Strikes, which undermines the Disease Status Immunity as it applies Major Defile anyways).

blackdragons27

From the casual bosmer stamblade:

After doing a few dailies and doing the Forgotten Wastes public dungeon quest (which i just completed on live the other day so the run is still fresh in my mind) on the PTS, I find my self going back and forth...

Over all, damage and resources feel like they do on live. Gills didn't feel weaker in combat(no actual numbers for dps difference due to keeping all addons save mini map off my pts), and honestly she gained stam recovery (from 1712 on live to 1896 on pts).

Now... the loss of the stealth... that was noticeable. Usually I use a combo of sneak and invis. pots to make my through mobs I don't really feel like dealing with at the time. On live, I had no problem sneaking about the larger groups of npcs in the Forgotten Wastes. It was a little harder getting out, but I didn't catch the eyes of the larger groups (just some smaller ones lol) Now today...for such a tiny elf... I have never felt more like a bull in a china shop... The way into FW wasn't too bad to start, got too close to a few single npc and got their attention...ok fine... keep going and now I'm being detected a few secs after i use an invis pot by a assassin bug and he decided to chase me, to which the group of npcs ignore because they dont see me... repeatx2 (idk if that's a bug on invis pots or not... they don't do that on live atm).... finish the quest, just needed to turn it in, contemplate just porting out because i know its going to be AT LEAST as tricky geting to the front as it is on live... but no, I went in there for a reason, I had to finish it the right way. So I do.... only to aggro a larger group of mobs while dropping down too close to them, turn and accidentally run smack into another.... so now its a game of "quick run away!!" and I will say that the dodge roll buff did help to keep me alive when (again) my invis pot failed me... but I didn't die so meh...

I ran Gills just the same as she is on live, and I was expecting some differences obviously (that's the whole point of the changes) but I wasn't expecting my grumpy little Gills to feel like a complete stranger in the way she handled... I'll have to rework gear and such to get her feeling more like her again,(seeing as ive put 2300+hrs into her as a bosmer... by the gods she will STAY a bosmer till the end)but I'll make her work as i always do.

While the loss of detection reduction is really sad (as i said, Gills just doesn't feel or move like a bosmer should atm) I can compensate that with other things. Its the new stealth detection passive part that has had me scratching my head as to why only the bosmers see something majorly wrong with it... there is no other racial passive that will ONLY benefit(IN PART OR WHOLE) from player vs player interaction... not even the bretons 1% increase to ap is solely reliant on pvp... you don't need to interact with other player to benefit from it, you can quest in Cyrodiil and never have to interact (yes you'll probably be killed... but that player had nothing to do with whether or not that passive did anything for you...(and even that passive is a "flavor" passive that will only cost 1 sp) Even in Cyrodiil I can't see it doing much (now in the sewers, yes I can see it being awesome) Its a nice concept and I can see what they we're trying to do, but half of the Hunter’s Eye passive isn't going to do anything in at least 80% of the games content.... Sure there are npc nb that stealth up for a sec... but all races already know where they are because you see them charge their heavy attack while in stealth, and even if they didn't, the 2-3 sec of stealth from them isn't anything that's really going to make a difference to the fight if we see them or not in PVE... so that's half a passive that is very conditional as to whether or not it actually does something... I'm not saying give bosmer back steath (would it be nice yes... but like I said, i can work around that) but Hunter’s Eye passive really needs some work to keep it on the same lvl as the other passives.
~Grumpy Gills

Mattock_Romulus

IronWooshu wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Developers should take right descion for Racial passives balances instead of taking some players moaning.

Players want their favourite race to get all flavours and as a complete package which shall not be the case.

Some Races needs buff that does not include Dunmer, Altmers, Bretons, Nords, Argonians, Redguards, Orc and Bosmers.

Khajit and Imperial race needs some kind of buff,

Khajit: Healthy recovery is useless instead buff Mag and Stam recovery

Imperial: Becomes PVE tank race only? We shall no longer DPS on this race?

and you can DPS on Nord?

Yes. More frequent dps ultimates than Imperial.

Benemime

well, I thought I was coming back to the game with the racial changes, but nope

I'm a imperial magsorc and I won't switch to altmer/breton, but I can't play feeling like I'm still behind every magicka race lol

Silver_Strider wrote: »

GildedSun wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I can't speak for everyone in relation to the Block cost reduction but I don't think that it's bland but rather the current iteration of Red Diamond coupled with the Cost Reduction is just bad from a statistical standpoint and it's off putting as a result since it still feels like a lackluster Tank racial in comparison to other races. Changing it into being a fairly powerful Tri-Stat restore effect only slightly weaker to Argonian potion passive (60 Regen/sec vs 80 Regen/sec), with a little extra block sustain on top makes Red Diamond into a useful Passive that would allow Imperial to branch outside of the Tanking role into DPS and Healer roles effectively but not be so powerful in those roles as opposed to Races that are more situated for them. An Imperial Healer will never be as powerful as a Breton Healer, it's Stamina DPS wouldn't have the raw strength of Orcs, it's Magic DPS won't be as good as an Altmer and in Tank roles, Nord offers more group utility but less sustain/stats than Imperial, while having less sustain than Argonians but more raw stats so that it's an overall balanced Race capable of fulfilling every role to a decent capacity, which is how a pay walled race should be, a perfect Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

So it should be a hybrid race? Just asking, not trying to be smart or anything.

Also you compared your suggestion to the Argonian passive, the Argonian passive can potentially be a bit stronger if people go into potion cd right? Does that affect your suggested numbers for imperial any?

Interesting thoughts nonetheless!

It should be a hybrid race because its lore suggests they are equally adapt at both Magic and Melee combat and because making Imperial a good intermediary race, good for everything but not great in specialized builds would be a good way to handle a pay walled race.

I do factor in the potion CD on Argonians in my suggestion as I've also factored in the extra resources of Imperial as well as their Block cost reduction. An Argonian that goes full on Potion Passive CD with Infused Jewelry, is giving up a minimal of 2610 extra resources vs an Imperial doing the same, giving up only 610 due the the large stat total difference of Imperials vs Argonians. This would bring Argonian sustain up to ~171 regen/second but considering that jewelry traits would also be amplified by % base modifiers, you're looking at a much more substantial resource loss on Argonians than Imperials for what amounts to a regen total of 121 extra regen/sec over Imperial. Then, we factor in Imperials block cost reduction. While the significance of it is overlooked, what can't really be overlooked is that Imperial can essentially drop a Sturdy Armor Trait for something more substantial in its place and on a piece of gear like Shields, changing out Sturdy for Infused would give even more power towards Imperial in terms of Max Resources as that loss is even lower. At that point, you're looking at the 4% healing done on Argonians as truly the only significant difference between them and Imperials (Disease resist is worthless in any practical sense due to the severe lack of Disease Damage in the game, with the only significant form of it coming from Incapacitating Strikes, which undermines the Disease Status Immunity as it applies Major Defile anyways).

exactly. So frustrating that we are still not hybrid at all.

Benemime

Samsquanch wrote: »

GildedSun wrote: »

My Thoughts for Imperial (changes I've been thinking about):

Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes.
Tough: 12% Max Health → Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 1500.
Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 1500.
Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → Imperial Grit: Increases your Max Health by 1500. Blocking an attack Restores 750 Health, Magicka, or Stamina depending on which resource is lowest; this effect can occur once every 5 seconds.(to clarify: the restoration part should restore whatever resource is currently lowest % wise, meaning if you had no stamina it would restore 750 stamina)

I think this helps break the imperials out of the mold of just being stam race when multiple people reference the lore talking about imperials being battle mages as well. The tri stat increase reflects their ability to be recruited by any alliance and the second part of Imperial Grit helps with sustain and follows the dev notes of being able to push back when being under pressure.

I will admit I'm not expert on balancing and the restorative number of Imperial Grit might need to go up or down but feels more interesting to me than just a block/bash cost reduction.

Solid.

I would change this to:

Imperial Insight: Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.

Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Increases your Max Health by 2000. When you deal Direct Damage you have a 10% chance to heal for 1500.

Official changes from PTS Notes:

Tough: Gain 12% Max Health → Increases your Max Health by 2000.

Conditioning: Gain 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

This is the jack-of-all-trades imperial that should be that respects the lore. Changes were disappointing for magicka imperials.

GildedSun

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It should be a hybrid race because its lore suggests they are equally adapt at both Magic and Melee combat and because making Imperial a good intermediary race, good for everything but not great in specialized builds would be a good way to handle a pay walled race.

I do factor in the potion CD on Argonians in my suggestion as I've also factored in the extra resources of Imperial as well as their Block cost reduction. An Argonian that goes full on Potion Passive CD with Infused Jewelry, is giving up a minimal of 2610 extra resources vs an Imperial doing the same, giving up only 610 due the the large stat total difference of Imperials vs Argonians. This would bring Argonian sustain up to ~171 regen/second but considering that jewelry traits would also be amplified by % base modifiers, you're looking at a much more substantial resource loss on Argonians than Imperials for what amounts to a regen total of 121 extra regen/sec over Imperial. Then, we factor in Imperials block cost reduction. While the significance of it is overlooked, what can't really be overlooked is that Imperial can essentially drop a Sturdy Armor Trait for something more substantial in its place and on a piece of gear like Shields, changing out Sturdy for Infused would give even more power towards Imperial in terms of Max Resources as that loss is even lower. At that point, you're looking at the 4% healing done on Argonians as truly the only significant difference between them and Imperials (Disease resist is worthless in any practical sense due to the severe lack of Disease Damage in the game, with the only significant form of it coming from Incapacitating Strikes, which undermines the Disease Status Immunity as it applies Major Defile anyways).

I see what you're saying, I appreciate the insight.

I don't think I saw you respond to my question of changing your suggestion from weapon ability to something like direct damage, would that make more sense?