@ZOS_Gilliam Changes are fine, but you’ve only shifted the meta, you haven’t added “build diversity” at all.

A bolder approach would be having 1-2 fixed racial passives and then allowing players to pick from a pool of the others. That’s what some of us were expecting—but should have known better I suppose.

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

The values seem to have been based around an assumed total of 20k, ie a 10% bonus becomes a flat +2,000 increase, but most characters have at least 30-40k in their primary stat.

This ^^

Well... I dunno... was there any reasons for this, but "we just need to change something"?

Poor Lizards and Cannibals - such huge nerf...

Hail to Cats and Reds - such buff, omg

Good job guys, well done. Would love to see some more unique skills like the ulit gen from nord and the major expidition with wood elf with all races but overall well done.

casparian wrote: »

Big thanks to Gilliam and Gina for working hard to get us this info so quickly!

Two main questions:

1. Why is there no race that both gets a stamina/weapon damage bonus and gets a bonus when using a class ability (a la High Elf)? This just reinforces the old, bad stereotype that class abilities are for magicka builds and weapon abilities are for stamina builds. Big oversight IMO.
2. Wasn't this supposed to introduce more racial diversity in individual roles? Isn't there just no reason to run anything but Altmer for mag DPS anymore (whereas before Dunmer and Altmer both had points in favor)? What am I missing here?

That said, racial diversity in PVP is looking a lot better than it used to be. That's nice to see.

True I also still do not see how for example Nord can be better as Mage in any aspect or even comparable to Altmer at this point, what I was hoping for was to see us picking 3 passives from pool to tailor our character as we want with a racial tweak for example Dunmers add fire dmg and max mag - nords add frost damage and max mag (if we wanted to spec Nords into mages) etc + 1 typical racial passive, now we have just shifted meta races into different directions so it is disappointing.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Ok.
Nords are literally OP buffed. 4k resistance of EACH? Almost STATIC minor heroism is a nerf to you - HUH?
Khajiit just got 8% spell and weapon crit - the most desirable stat in a PVE DPS kit and yet you say they have 0 chance of being competitive - HUH?

Hahaha.... Seriously...

You get your "heroism" when you take damage, every ten seconds at that. In PVP, that's pretty much useless, especially since they will now be even worse in PVP. Since they will have less health AND stamina, AND health recovery, nobody will use them anyway - because this was exactly why we used them in PVP, if we did. The old typical PVP Nord with +40k Stamina, high Health/Health recovery is now out the window, so tell me how we are supposed to make use of that "heroism" you speak of. We can't be the Fury/Seventh Legion wearing guys taking all the beating anymore, they will be as weak and useless as us modern day Swedes, a pale shadow of what once was, quite literally.

3960 = 6% reduction, this now doesn't apply to bleed or oblivion damage. So please keep telling me how wonderfully buffed they are.

Literally, maybe you just zerg in PvP. Which is fine, I don’t care. But maybe that’s why you don’t understand my POV.

The reason I say this is because “when you take damage” and “PvP” are nearly interchangeable terms to me, whereas you seem to feel the need to act like they’re so incredibly different. If I’m in PvP, I’m transporting or I’m taking damage, simple as that. People are attacking me and I am attacking people. The only scenario I can imagine someone wouldn’t see it this way is if they were the aggressor, larger group, zerging down a smaller group who literally can’t do damage to them because they’re being trampled.

“When you take damage” should very easily mean it procs on cooldown every time and synergize incredibly well with, oh idk- BATTLE ROAR. Bloodspawn. Decisive. Werewolf hide, fury, seventh legion, take your pick. These changes to nord will literally push it to not only good or great but literally best in slot. Atleast in regards to stam dk, it is going to be very hard to top.

You’re acting like nords damage mitigation got gutted so profoundly that they’re just going to be fairies who float around and die now. Meanwhile, in every discord and competitive PvP environment I look, everyone’s eyeballing that nord as their next ticket to OP ROFLSTOMP.

The damage mit % = resistance pound for pound. So the only thing we’re talking about here is bleeds. The mit % decreased them and new passive will not. But even with that, that current mit % passive is broken and it’s well known and accepted that it stacks improperly at the disadvantage of the nord.

And while bleeds are strong, an 8% damage mitigation to them being lost does not BY ANY MEANS gut this play style. If you think that a nord heavy armor stam dk in blood spawn/fury/7th with all those healing, tanking and constant ulti gain passives is going to be anything short of an absolute juggernaut, maybe refer to the very first sentence of this post as to why.

Just wanted to give a few of my thoughts on the racial balancing changes.
So a stated problem is:
“Many racial bonuses do not have universal applicability.”
And your goals and processes include:
“Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.”
“Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.”

I am going to focus on Redguard and Imperial passives mainly, since those are the Stamina classes that I play and am most familiar with. High Elf, Khajiit, Nord (most classes, generally speaking) have seen some good changes that promote “universal” applicability. When I say “universal”, I don’t mean that someone looking to play Stamina could roll a High Elf and expect to be competitively viable but that virtually ANY Magicka class/build can make use of all 3 of the High Elf racials. There’s also the universal applicability of the versatile Khajiit and Dark Elf racials, where the stats are different but useful for all classes and builds. However, this theme of 3 generally useful racials is not the case for all classes. I agree with the method of stat evaluation to bring the classes more in line with one another, but the distribution I have a pretty large problem with for some races, especially for Redguard and Imperial.


Redguard Passive: Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.
How is this universally applicable for classes that use more class abilities than others? This will specifically impact my Nightblade only through Rally, Executioner, and Poison Injection, none of which are really spammables. A change that would better satisfy your stated goals would be to give a flat bonus that applies to all Stamina playstyles, like a % cost reduction to Stamina abilities or a certain amount of Weapon Damage or maybe even the Stamina Regen that was there initially. It should basically be the Stamina mirror of High Elf, yeah? It basically was before, why change that up now? You could even tone down Adrenaline Rush to accommodate a more generally useful passive. Given these changes, Redguard does not retain its feeling and gameplay pattern.

Imperial Passive: Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.
When doing your stat valuation, does it account for Battle Spirit? Also, again, the distribution into an area where only specific subroles can draw value from it is a problem. Going with the “stout and hardy” lore, instead of reduced cost for Block and Bash, why not give a passive amount of Physical/Spell Resist? That way, ALL Stamina subroles can make use of it, and it will further solve the problem of a lack of universal applicability. Red Diamond has been trash tier for years now, and it’s hard to believe this is the result of a balance rework.

I thought the balance changes were supposed to make race choice less impactful. The goal was to remove the notion that “X/Y is the best stamina/magicka class,” but it’s been removed and replaced with “X/Y is the best stamina/magicka class for this specific subrole/playstyle/task (whatever you want to call it),” meaning that race choice is now more important than before in many regards for some playstyles. I shouldn’t feel more compelled to race change my character immediately following a balance change. You’ve given a stat budget to every class to “balance” things, but there are some stat distributions that only make sense for certain subroles, specializations, or niches, which actually make your choices more restrictive. As things stand, I’m probably going to go Wood Elf for a 2h/bow build for the obvious roll dodge synergy, but what if I want a different playstyle on that character eventually? There needs to be LESS impactful flavor on the racials so that people do not feel pigeonholed into specific ones or at least not as severely punished for picking a sub-optimal one for a certain playstyle. In this case, balance requires homogenization or generally useful passives, and the ones I listed (Redguard and Imperial) are not generally useful passives. The stat budget is being spent too specifically/"nichely" to the point that you are not achieving the universal applicability that you were aiming for. These changes do not increase build diversity - they actually decrease it, inhibiting player freedom. I do like a lot of these changes, but some of them just don’t make sense to me.

Side notes:
Why is High Elf the only race with a “restore Magicka or Stamina based on whichever stat is higher” passive? It seems arbitrary and inconsistent.
Orc passive: Does the Orc Unflinching passive (“When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 Health and Stamina. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.”) apply to DoTs like Poison Injection or Rending Slashes?

First of all... I do not care if Dunmer is Nr.1 or Nr.2 or Nr.3 as mag race, I also do not care if mag DK isnt equal to stamina builds, since its a melee playstyle, the mag DK has some bonuses which make him a more relieable melee-DD, so its okay to at least not be equal to stam melees.

What I do care for is, that mag DK isnt jsut a bit underperforming, but total trash since over a year. Whenever I want to join a raid, not a progress one, I gonna get the question "Can you come with your mag sorc?" or "dont you have a stamina melee?".

I never really mattered, wether Dunmer is in general as mag DD nr.1, nr.2 or nr.3 - but the dunmer always had a close bond to the mag DK with the flame bonus, since those two parts coplemented each other. Removing that part from the dunmer isnt only a nerf to the dunmer, but also a big nerf to the mag DK, which already is underperforming a lot. I am right now wondering, wether ZOS devs hate mag DK so much, or wether in their filter bubble never the info went through: Hey mag DK melees have a serious problem in PVE since approx over a year. and somehow also the info didnt went through: stop trying hybrid. its never been a thing and wont ever be a thing. just stop it pls. no hybrid. hybrid will never be a thing. stahp pls.

idk what to say.
rip dunmer mag dk.

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Ok.
Nords are literally OP buffed. 4k resistance of EACH? Almost STATIC minor heroism is a nerf to you - HUH?
Khajiit just got 8% spell and weapon crit - the most desirable stat in a PVE DPS kit and yet you say they have 0 chance of being competitive - HUH?

Hahaha.... Seriously...

You get your "heroism" when you take damage, every ten seconds at that. In PVP, that's pretty much useless, especially since they will now be even worse in PVP. Since they will have less health AND stamina, AND health recovery, nobody will use them anyway - because this was exactly why we used them in PVP, if we did. The old typical PVP Nord with +40k Stamina, high Health/Health recovery is now out the window, so tell me how we are supposed to make use of that "heroism" you speak of. We can't be the Fury/Seventh Legion wearing guys taking all the beating anymore, they will be as weak and useless as us modern day Swedes, a pale shadow of what once was, quite literally.

3960 = 6% reduction, this now doesn't apply to bleed or oblivion damage. So please keep telling me how wonderfully buffed they are.

Literally, maybe you just zerg in PvP. Which is fine, I don’t care. But maybe that’s why you don’t understand my POV.

The reason I say this is because “when you take damage” and “PvP” are nearly interchangeable terms to me, whereas you seem to feel the need to act like they’re so incredibly different. If I’m in PvP, I’m transporting or I’m taking damage, simple as that. People are attacking me and I am attacking people. The only scenario I can imagine someone wouldn’t see it this way is if they were the aggressor, larger group, zerging down a smaller group who literally can’t do damage to them because they’re being trampled.

“When you take damage” should very easily mean it procs on cooldown every time and synergize incredibly well with, oh idk- BATTLE ROAR. Bloodspawn. Decisive. Werewolf hide, fury, seventh legion, take your pick. These changes to nord will literally push it to not only good or great but literally best in slot. Atleast in regards to stam dk, it is going to be very hard to top.

You’re acting like nords damage mitigation got gutted so profoundly that they’re just going to be fairies who float around and die now. Meanwhile, in every discord and competitive PvP environment I look, everyone’s eyeballing that nord as their next ticket to OP ROFLSTOMP.

The damage mit % = resistance pound for pound. So the only thing we’re talking about here is bleeds. The mit % decreased them and new passive will not. But even with that, that current mit % passive is broken and it’s well known and accepted that it stacks improperly at the disadvantage of the nord.

And while bleeds are strong, an 8% damage mitigation to them being lost does not BY ANY MEANS gut this play style. If you think that a nord heavy armor stam dk in blood spawn/fury/7th with all those healing, tanking and constant ulti gain passives is going to be anything short of an absolute juggernaut, maybe refer to the very first sentence of this post as to why.

This post can be summarized with "I lack any sort of common sense, and if you disagree with me you're a zerg". That's really what i got from that.

How can anyone read those changes and think they actually make nords better?

Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

6% stamina to 1500 is a slight nerf.
20% health rec(200 health rec with gold food) -> 5 ult every 10 secs if you take dmg, which isn't always going to be the case.
9% health at 25k = 2250. Now you'll just get 1k.
6% flat dmg reduction to 3960 resistance is a nerf.

Guess im a zerg, and nords are the ticket to OP ROFLSTOMP.

Damn, this one cannot thank you enough for finally buffing the mag-side of Khajiit. This one can't imagine running around Tamriel without some feline looks and my mag-characters can now finally rejoice in not being a kind of outcast while wielding a staff (especially my main healer).
There have been enough Khajiit characters even in ESO lore that are focused on magic...it made no sense to shoehorn just the stamina side into the racial passives all this past time....

@ZOS_Gilliam : well done and great explanations all across the board

thx for making the choice inbetween redguard and khajiit easier.....sustain nerf was exactly the change khajiit needed !