Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

WeerW3ir

menschikov2 wrote: »

I am a bit Surprised. I expected atleast some buffs for example for Stamina Argonier. And how you Count some stats is also Pretty unusual. Argonians get 1k Health for 9% but other Races get 2k for 6%?
Also the Buff for Redguards seems way to strong when they even get this reg while on Range

this is what im asking too.

ookami007

Seriously devs... Lay off the crack.

Jamdarius

code65536 wrote: »

RIP Dunmer.

Unless you intend to play a hybrid, there's absolutely no reason to pick Dunmer over Altmer for a mag class.

In the current patch, Dunmer-vs-Altmer was a question of damage-vs-sustain. With the high amount of fire damage at play, Dunmer did slightly higher DPS than Altmer, but Altmer had better sustain. Dunmer had 9% max mag (6%+3%) vs. Altmer's 10%, so that was not a substantial difference.

Now with these proposed changes...

1. The magicka deficit between Dunmer and Altmer is larger.
2. Replacing Dunmer's higher flame damage with weapon damage (useful only for a hybrid) means that Dunmer now does less DPS than Altmer (as they have the same spell damage bonus).
3. Dunmer doesn't have Altmer's sustain.

So whereas in the past Dunmer lost sustain in exchange for slightly more damage versus Altmer, now they've lost sustain and lost damage. So... why would anyone pick Dunmer?

Suggestion: Give Dunmer fire abilities an additional X spell damage. It would make them once again a meaningful alternative to Altmer and is consistent with their lore background.

RIP my MAGDK main....

andy_s

Stop touching racial passives, work on class balance first, so we don't have 10 nightblades groups in PvE. Now people will just change their race for free to the best one and that's it. At least it would be interesting to have a unique racial skill, so all races are welcome in groups, and not just 8 altmer/breton magblades clear the new trial on PTS first week.

dave_harter_ESO

I am not happy with the dummer and bosmer PVE issues! Both races will be pretty bad as far as competitive PVE. I would get replace the roll part of the Bosmer Hunter's eye with a damage boost. This alleviates the PVP issue of the stacking speed boost and allows the race to be viable in PVE. Dummer being crap for Mag DK in PVE is a huge problem. There will be a lot of very unhappy Dummer Mag DKs if this goes live like this.

WillhelmBlack

RIP Health regen builds.

Vhozek

Keep the immunity effects, Bosmer's Hunter's Eye, the flat bonuses instead of %, Dunmer Physical Damage (dont' remove Flame damage), and Nord Ultimate gain. The addition, removal, and changes of everything else is bad.

xaraan

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I predicted this An all out assault on max % stats. Effectively stealing power from EVERYONE's build.

Thanks champion system supporting people. This is the price of the power creep I was talking about.

The funny thing is that in typical ZoS fashion, they will roll out these nerfs, then change CP as they are talking about doing and leave these nerfs in place as well. So double nerfs when all is said and done.

The across the board assault to lower some stuff is one thing.

BUT they failed in making racials not matter that much and just rotated what the go-to races will be and created a couple new bottom of the barrel races and left a bunch of others in the middle. So really no improvement to actual game balance, but it does create a reason to sell race change crown tokens.

gplumblingnrb18_ESO

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Since when 9% percent is 1k. (argonian, nord) and 10% is 2k? (altmer)

They are not changing the exact percentage to digits. They are just changing the current stats to what they think is a reasonable/stable number, regardless of what the current percentage is. Just be happy they didn't completely remove the max health buff.

Argonian needed a nerf was slightly overpowered.

I think the changes are great, I'm gonna really enjoy testing and creating new builds.

Bloodystab

Cant believe how lazy this 'Balance' is.

Lets reduce this, remove that, put this here & there. TADAM!

Also half of the changes are out of place.

- Argonians get 1k Health for 9% but other Races get 2k for 6%
- Bosmer Movement Speed will be pain in the ass in PvP environment

etc

IronWooshu

Is it just me or is Red Diamond still trash? or maybe I misunderstood what direct damage is but I thought direct damage is from abilities which means it has no chance to proc off light or heavy attacks. If that's the case spamming abilities for a 15% chance at a 1.7k heal seems counter productive. If direct damage accounts for melee and ranged light or heavy attacks as well then I've been misunderstanding this game and I take back the trash comment.

Carbonised

code65536 wrote: »

RIP Dunmer.

Unless you intend to play a hybrid, there's absolutely no reason to pick Dunmer over Altmer for a mag class.

In the current patch, Dunmer-vs-Altmer was a question of damage-vs-sustain. With the high amount of fire damage at play, Dunmer did slightly higher DPS than Altmer, but Altmer had better sustain. Dunmer had 9% max mag (6%+3%) vs. Altmer's 10%, so that was not a substantial difference.

Now with these proposed changes...

1. The magicka deficit between Dunmer and Altmer is larger.
2. Replacing Dunmer's higher flame damage with weapon damage (useful only for a hybrid) means that Dunmer now does less DPS than Altmer (as they have the same spell damage bonus).
3. Dunmer doesn't have Altmer's sustain.

So whereas in the past Dunmer lost sustain in exchange for slightly more damage versus Altmer, now they've lost sustain and lost damage. So... why would anyone pick Dunmer?

Suggestion: Give Dunmer fire abilities an additional X spell damage. It would make them once again a meaningful alternative to Altmer and is consistent with their lore background.

I was going to write an angry reply, but code already states the fact here. Its RIP dunmer, and its also completely RIP magdk dps sine the dunmer fire damage bonus was their saving grace. Without it, magdk is left in the dirt by other mag classes, and stam too.

Thanks for killing off my main race AND my main class all in the one and same patch, thats a new record!

Ps: if diversity was the goal, then why did you make altmer the obvious number 1 choice by far for all mag dps specs. Smh, smh, smh.

geonsocal

2 quick points:

1). this thread should have appeared on the general discussion page - it literally affects everyone playing...

2). orcs like to use magic too ya know...

Sinolai

I feel bad for dunmers. 600hp is not that much, could be swapped to something more useful. No regen passives to help with sustain and as a "hybrid" it has less stamina and magicka than more focused races. Previously the huge flame damage boost was what compensated their smaller stats but that has been taken away now.

Imperial has been clearly molded into a tank… which it does pretty good now but I think this might kill the versatility?

Breton looks pretty good IMO, though I'd rather keep no recovery and huge spell resistance than small recovery buff and nerf to resistance. I don't have any sustain issues in live at the moment and the 7% cost reduction is already lots of sustain boost for Breton.

Nord changes seem very good, atleast on paper.

Raudgrani

xaraan wrote: »

I don't know why I'm amazed that you failed again at balance zos.

NO ONE should want to get a race change b/c you ruined their race. They should want to get one b/c you made others equally appealing and they've always wanted to play "x" race and now feel like they can without losing anything.

Exactly this. It affects my most used characters in a really bad way. Should I turn my Khajiit stamblade into... What? A Thief? A prostitute? Belly dancer - oh, no not dancing. That takes some serious stamina recovery...
And 4 (PVP ones) of my 5 Nords, turn these into PVE tanks too, so I have 5 of them? No thanks. All my toons are taking somewhat of a nerf, so does everyone not being a "Redguardophiliac"; but the effects are so game changing for my toons they won't be viable at all anymore.

For me it's more like: "Ok. I'll wait and see if they really WILL do this at release, I'm not pre-ordering at least; because I won't go through all the work and misery this will mean. Well, if so - it was fun and all, but now I have to come up with something else to do with my spare time".

WeerW3ir

gplumblingnrb18_ESO wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Since when 9% percent is 1k. (argonian, nord) and 10% is 2k? (altmer)

They are not changing the exact percentage to digits. They are just changing the current stats to what they think is a reasonable/stable number, regardless of what the current percentage is. Just be happy they didn't completely remove the max health buff.

Thats stupid. Not saying as hater. Im saying it normally. Like imagine that. Youre getting a raise on your workplace. They say percents. Your co worker getting 2k raise. You getting 1k raise. In his paper says 6 percent raise, yours says 9%. Your and his payment was the same before. Now not. Like what.

ookami007

Bloodystab wrote: »

Cant believe how lazy this 'Balance' is.

Lets reduce this, remove that, put this here & there. TADAM!

Also half of the changes are out of place.

- Argonians get 1k Health for 9% but other Races get 2k for 6%
- Bosmer Movement Speed will be pain in the ass in PvP environment

etc

They setup cardboard boxes with the names of stats and abilities... Then threw lawn darts to see which race got what.

The_Saint

Why dont buff lightning damage for highelve and sorcs can use lightning staff again?
Why dont give bretons magic damage fora nb or warden?
Dunmer with fire damage magDks?
for example

Raids with 5 (6) different classes (stamina/magicka) and 5-6 different races should be a goal.
And not 3 classes and 2 races

WeerW3ir

gplumblingnrb18_ESO wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Since when 9% percent is 1k. (argonian, nord) and 10% is 2k? (altmer)

They are not changing the exact percentage to digits. They are just changing the current stats to what they think is a reasonable/stable number, regardless of what the current percentage is. Just be happy they didn't completely remove the max health buff.

Argonian needed a nerf was slightly overpowered.

I think the changes are great, I'm gonna really enjoy testing and creating new builds.

They wasnt. At least not as tank. As healer more likely. But that does not change the truth. 6 NOT EQUAL TO 9

Vhozek

I wish I never saw this. I'm really upset with the Dunmer changes so far and now I don't wanna log in to play because it's just a waste of time. I hope this is updated soon. DK Dunmer is the only thing keeping me in this game. The ONLY thing.

WolfStar07

Do you even proofread, bro?

But really, I feel like the changes you made to Stealth for Khajiit and Bosmer would work just as well in the reverse, if not better. Consider the descriptions of Bosmer being hunters (so they should get the detection radius buff) and Khajiit being keen to subterfuge (so they should get the stealth detection buff).

Mr_Wolfe

A few issues that jumped out at me:

• Changing the max health/magicka/stamina buffs to a flat increase was an interesting idea, but as implemented looks to be a major nerf.
  
  The values seem to have been based around an assumed total of 20k, ie a 10% bonus becomes a flat +2,000 increase, but most characters have at least 30-40k in their primary stat.
  
  This is going to hurt just about every character and cheese a lot of people off. Consider increasing the values across the board so that you're still raising the floor without dropping the ceiling quite so hard.
  
• The changes to Argonian Resestance and Resist Affliction heavily favors the wood elf. Disease damage is not nearly as common as poison and the argonians' 9% health buff turns into a flat 1k, while wood elves' 6% stam buff becomes a 2k increase.
  
• The orc 'Brawny' passive is less than half as good as the other races' max stat buffs. Dark elves get +1250 max stam and mag at the same tier while orcs only get +500 health and stam. Imperials have a passive that grants 2k health and another that gives 2k stam, getting four times the resources for only twice the passives. This needs to be adjusted.
  
• Changing nords' 6% damage reduction to a flat resistance value makes this passive useless for tanks, as characters that are already at the armor cap don't benefit from added resistances.

xaraan

geonsocal wrote: »

2 quick points:

1). this thread should have appeared on the general discussion page - it literally affects everyone playing...

They were trying to roll it out so it didn't explode with attention super fast. That's why, even though these changes were known, they didn't talk about them in the stream or post them right after and waited a bit and why it was posted in one of the dead forums. Don't worry, someone will explain it fits in the mechanics forum.

Banana

I like them and my breton is happy

Sun7dance

The_Saint wrote: »

Why dont buff lightning damage for highelve and sorcs can use lightning staff again?
Why dont give bretons magic damage anda nb or warden can go?
Dunmer with fire damage?
for example

Raids with 5 (6) different classes (stamina/magicka) and 5-6 different races should be a goal.
And not 3 classes and 2 races

Your last point is important.
ZOS wanted to change racial passives to offer more diversity. But what we have now is just a displacement of the best races.
Where is the diversity?
So in the end ZOS wasted a lot of time, energy and ressources for nothing!

MassTerror23

Raudgrani wrote: »

MassTerror23 wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Regarding you saying Bosmer is out that is a lie I’m currently a bosmer and my recov with this change will be like 950 without stam pot it’ll be at like 1150 with stam pot. Redguards will have a 700 recov and a like 850 recov with pots. So in combat your recov procs every 2 seconds. So let’s do the math for redguards first. Every 5 seconds they get 950 recov via passive and their stam recov procs twice so that’ll be 850*2=1700 so every 5 secs they get 1700+950=2650 stam. Now wood elves in 5 seconds will get 1150*2=2300 stam recov. The difference in their recov will be 2650-2300=350 recov. And a standard pve rotation is about 10 seconds so their difference in one rotation is 700 stam which isn’t that bad especially since they have the same stam gain which is a nerd for redguards and buff for wood elves. So you can’t count them out.

Also the 700 comes from the recov my character has without my stam passive.
Another thing is wood elves might come out with more than 950 recov because it flat 258 and idk if that’s applied before or after stats like recov is increased by x%

All that math, and you missed out Redguards get an 8% cost reduction too? I can't see you counting that into your equation.

I didn’t feel like finding my VO to see what 8% less is because ik my numbers will be wrong due other reduction factors but I’ll give you a guesstimation. Since I’m only looking at a pve setup it’ll only affect rending slashes, poison inject and endless hail. And let’s say hail is 3050, inject is at 1550 and rending at 1570 @8% less you’ll save 244, 124, 125 that’s 493. Round that to 500 and add that to the bosmer, redguard difference and it’ll be 1200 stam over 10 seconds.

The difference is still there with redguards being on top for sustain and also the 950 for bosmer could be wrong because that’s if the 258 is added after everything but if it’s add to recov let a set recov bonus then a bosmer could have 1050 recov and 1225 recov with pots and then in 5 seconds they would have gained 2450 stam which would make the overall difference between the two be only 900 stam over 10 seconds and that’s including the 8% reduction for redguards.

Thrasher91604

Should be one free racial change per character since all races will change.


Not very considerate ZOS!

Thevampirenight

Bosmer and Khajiit passives just need to be switched around and I made my own thread on this as well. As to why.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453585/i-think-the-passives-for-bosmer-and-khajiit-should-be-switched-around-and-there-is-a-reason-why#latest

Bosmer should have the stealth decreased detection.
Khajiit needs to have the steath detection passive.

This is what I would like to see.
Khajiit
Increases Experience gain in Medium Armor Skill Line by 15% decreases fall damage taken by 10%
Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Bosmer
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, 5% bonus change to successfully pickpocket

Forest Cover- Decreases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Stealth Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

xaraan

gplumblingnrb18_ESO wrote: »

WeerW3ir wrote: »

Since when 9% percent is 1k. (argonian, nord) and 10% is 2k? (altmer)

They are not changing the exact percentage to digits. They are just changing the current stats to what they think is a reasonable/stable number, regardless of what the current percentage is. Just be happy they didn't completely remove the max health buff.

Argonian needed a nerf was slightly overpowered.

I think the changes are great, I'm gonna really enjoy testing and creating new builds.

I don't think they were suggesting that the actual math was wrong. I'd have thought that was obvious.

I think just pointing out that them thinking their changes are 'reasonable' is in fact... not.

And also, I don't think we have to "just be happy" they do anything. We are customers, they are providing a service. It ends there.

Argonian was slightly overpowered for tanking - slightly. What about for DPS? So now they are "ok" for tanking and horrible for DPS role? How is that balance? My DPS argonians continue to be useless and now I can know that I'm not even getting a benefit in another role for that weakness as I watch Nords be the go-to now. Not that they didn't deserve the love they got.

But... this was a horrible job at balance. All is did was shift the horrible imbalance they had around a bit.

haakira

I'm quite appalled at the amount of clueless comments floating around here.

Take a step back and think about the numbers presented to you. Most of these changes won't even warrant a race change whatsoever. If your race was doing something for your class, it will keep doing it just fine, and in a lot of cases, even better.

As long as you play a race that has the stats that boost your type of damage, you're all set. The difference will be in most cases of 1% or less for DPS.

Stop this ridiculous "THE WORLD IS GONNA END, I HAVE 258 SPELL DAMAGE INSTEAD OF 7% FIRE DAMAGE WAAAA!"

Good god.