Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

ExhumedToConsume

Not happy about my new Dark Elf Mag DK being nerfed, and it is also ridiculous they don't offer a name + race change token for every character that is lvl 40 or max level. I am sure a lot of people who are changing their race, will also do a name change.

Skander

Dark elf is too powerful: Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

This is too much

Raudgrani

JobooAGS wrote: »

LLawlietW wrote: »

Why was redguard buffed? how does that make sense when they are already considered the best race for stamina dps. and then the second best option khajiit gets nerfed. i just dont understand how that is supposed to make sense at all. now khajiit has more health recovery than stam... but yea lets buff adrenaline rush

They nerfed the passive recovery

By *giving* them EIGHT % cost reduction

IronWooshu wrote: »

I love the changes, I will be changing my main to Nord since they are actually good now and I tank so I'm always taking damage for that ulti generation.

3960 resistance is exactly the same as 6% damage reduction, which they are taking away. That previous 6% applies to for example bleed damage, which is NOT mitigated by resistances. Tell me how that's better damage mitigation.

lassitershawn wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

High Elf - Good changes all over the place. I'm finding it difficult to say anything negative about them.

Argonian - Again, good changes. I still don't understand why they want to make Argonians the healer class, lorewise they are not healers.

Wood Elf - Pretty good stuff. I can see Wood Elves becoming a lot more popular in PvP, especially if that 20% speed increase stacks with the major expedition from the bow. A bit OP even?

Breton - Much needed buff to the cost reduction racial. I will be changing my magplar main from Argonian to Breton.

Dark Elf - 3% Max Magicka → Increases your Max Health by 600. This is not a good change, makes no sense whatsoever, and 600 health is an insignificant amount to justify losing 3% magicka.

Imperial - New go to race for pvp, and tanking?

Khajiit - I feel like they're trying to make them a "trick of all trades" race, but lorewise they are not. Argonians would be better suited for this.

Nord - Are these nerfs? Look like it to me, and it honestly doesn't make any sense.

Orc - Brawny: 6% Max Health and Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500. That's an unnecessary nerf. I'm on board with the other 2 though.

Redguard - WUT? Redguard sustain was so good that if you were not playing a redguard as a stamina class, you were simply doing it wrong. And their solution to this was to make their sustain even better...WTH!

Nord is substantially buffed. 4k resists is stronger than the not-really-functioning 6% mitigation and increased ulti gen is extremely important, especially in the context of PvE tanks where you can get off more warhorns.

3960 resistance is exactly the same as 6% damage reduction. Resistance however does not mitigate Oblivion or bleed damage, so definitely a NERF. No matter how you see it. Also, removed a %'ual health recovery, which allowed us to make really high health recovery PVP characters, literally "out recovering" damage, rather than mitigating or healing through it. A nerf.
And yeah, some small ulti generation bonus (feel it will hardly be noticeable in PVP, ten seconds?), for the loss of max stamina, and thereby any chance to deal damage with a Nord. Slapping on Bone Pirate and Hulking Draugr (interestingly enough two Draugr/Nord sets) was still a viable way to get some damage done for Nords; now they will be good for nothing but stand there and be beaten at - AND, they will essentially be worse on that too, than they were before.

Please tell me how this is "substantially buffing" them. It's pushing them further into a mediocre tanking role, NOTHING but tanking now.

mairwen85

Skander wrote: »

Dark elf is too powerful: Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

This is too much

It's not both. It's the second one. The description means (1) -> becomes -> (2)

Girl_Number8

What a horrid change to darkelfs and the one race change token with this amount of change to us end-game players is just insulting. Showing yourself to be greedy as always

SaintSubwayy

IzzyStardust wrote: »

That's a beeg nerf to Dark Elf Magblades lol - waiting to see.

Magblades wont suffers nearly as much as MagDKs will.

Magblades are actually pretty fine when they change to Highelves or maybe breton (grab back blue food even, or dropp Absorb enchants)

Deathlord92

Very interested see how well the set bonus efficiency system works🤔

xaraan

Argonian

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed → No changes
Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion → Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received → Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%.

Developer Comment:
Argonians by nature are resilient creatures, adapting to their surroundings and accumulating themselves to the environment. Their ability to shrug off potent diseases makes them harder to take down, and their connection with the Hist empowers their will for life. Their bonus to Healing Done makes them gifted at healing themselves or their allies, while their resource return after drinking a potion helps them stay in the fight. Regardless of their role, their ability to recuperate and get back into the fray is something to respect.

Previously Argonians offered far too many stats and they were mathematically twice as good as some races. This retracted from the unique feeling we wanted each race to have, since their bonuses were all over the place. Now they should have more of some stats that make them stand out a bit more, while they’ll have less in other areas that weren’t in line with that vision.

So Argonians were destroyed here...

1- whoever is doing your math (according to dev comment) that said Argonians are mathematically twice as good as other races -- do not let them do your accounting.

2. I expected the potion passive to get hit (for the second time mind you), but tbh it was the only thing going for the race over using a different race, especially for anything DPS related. You could say, at least I'll get some good regen out of this build if not the bonus damage.

So now what do I get out of playing an argonian? I get 3600 boost to my three stats when I drink a potion - which for one, requires a consumable to even get use out of and second only works on cool down since tied to consumable. Not to mention that you hardly ever get a benefit from all three bonuses b/c you don't always need all three stats back and extra when you are full is zero. But fine, I expected this to get hit.

But health bonus less? 1000 to health instead of 9%, this is a HUUUUGE nerf to a tank build. Heck it's even a nerf to a DPS build, as 9% of around 17k health would be a 1530 bonus.

The 1K magicka change instead of 3% is virtually no change on a magicka build that got over 30K magicka and would be a "buff" to a class that doesn't stack magicka and gets no benefit from the buff. And loss of poison resistance.

And 4% healing done now instead of 5% done and recieved. Little nerf and major nerf.

So exactly what are Argonians supposed to excel at now? Was the goal in your redesign team to find a couple different races to take the place of Nords in being the least desirable?

NOTHING given to them to compensate in a DPS build for being nerfed across the board at support?

I thought "zos will probably destroy my favorite race" for tanking, but at least maybe my DPS argonians will get something out of it. I should have known better.

Ratzkifal

So many mixed feelings while reading this.
Every race got sustain nerfed, except for Bretons, Altmer(?) and Redguards, but Redguards got straight up buffed on weapon builds (for some reason...) This is probably going to hit heavy armor builds in pvp, which I am looking forward to.

I am looking with worry on my Bosmer who will feel those 21% missing but can now detect people from farther away (woohoo! /s) and run very fast after dodge rolling (especially with the bow passive). I feel like the race's greatest strength was taken away and replaced with something that just can't make up for it. Reduce the sprint cost at least! Or bow skill cost (which redguards already have as well!)
There was once a time I bought a single race change token to turn my altmer templar into an imperial max health templar. This build has seen constant nerfs since then and I have already given up on it after Morrowind sustain. At least I am getting the race change refunded...
My Dunmers can't complain as long as the math works out and Dunmer are in line with other races.
Yay for magicka Khajiit. I doubt anyone was stacking health regen anyway.
Looking forward to playing my Breton with less ability cost. Reminds me of the old days. Too bad the max magicka had to go, but Altmer got rid of it too so I guess it's fair.
Might need to start wearing light armor on my Altmer DK from now on, but overall it looks alright.
Only Redguards seem way too strong in my book.

Emma_Overload

Thorvarg wrote: »

Khajiit

Carnage: Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m.

Too much

Nobody really uses both forms of crit, or are you complaining about the detection radius?

Anyway, I like these changes. Both Breton and Khajiit are competitive with Altmer and Dunmer now. I would even consider Redguard for certain Magicka PvP builds!

Vhozek

These are the describing characteristics I think come to mind when people think of these races. They have also been influence by lore and past games. Please be sure that the racial changes match the describing characteristics of each race.

High Elf

• Magic
• Damage
• Staff

Argonian

• Resistance
• Self Healing
• Health

Wood Elf

• Stealth
• Speed
• Hunting
• Bow

Breton

• Magic
• Anti Magic
• Casting (read note)

Dark Elf

• Magic
• Fire
• Physical
• Daggers

Imperial

• Knight
• Heal Others
• Wealth
• Sword & Shield

Khajiit

• Stealth
• Damage
• Thief
• Claws (unarmed)

Nord

• Persistence
• Rage
• Ice
• Dual Wield (rage)

Orc

• Crafting
• Strength
• Rage
• Two-Handed (strength)
• Heavy Armor (strength)

Redguard

• Speed
• Physical
• Casting (read note)

Note: Magic and Casting are not the same. "Casting" is the way magic is used for advantages while "Magic" is the way magic is used as THE primary advantage.

xaraan

I don't know why I'm amazed that you failed again at balance zos.

NO ONE should want to get a race change b/c you ruined their race. They should want to get one b/c you made others equally appealing and they've always wanted to play "x" race and now feel like they can without losing anything.

Sarousse

2 points :

20% speed afer a roll dodge on a Wood Elf is clearly unbalanced and will lead to so many abuses.

Bretons are still far away from the other races, their bonuses are too weak.

SaintSubwayy

terrasight wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

RIP Dunmer.

Unless you intend to play a hybrid, there's absolutely no reason to pick Dunmer over Altmer for a mag class.

In the current patch, Dunmer-vs-Altmer was a question of damage-vs-sustain. With the high amount of fire damage at play, Dunmer did slightly higher DPS than Altmer, but Altmer had better sustain. Dunmer had 9% max mag (6%+3%) vs. Altmer's 10%, so that was not a substantial difference.

Now with these proposed changes...

1. The magicka deficit between Dunmer and Altmer is larger.
2. Replacing Dunmer's higher flame damage with weapon damage (useful only for a hybrid) means that Dunmer now does less DPS than Altmer (as they have the same spell damage bonus).
3. Dunmer doesn't have Altmer's sustain.

So whereas in the past Dunmer lost sustain in exchange for slightly more damage versus Altmer, now they've lost sustain and lost damage. So... why would anyone pick Dunmer?

Suggestion: Give Dunmer fire abilities an additional X spell damage. It would make them once again a meaningful alternative to Altmer and is consistent with their lore background.

I agree 100% here.

In PVE, with these changes, you'll see no Dunmer anymore... and that is sad... I like my Dunmer since gamestart
There'll be Altmer everywhere at magical classes...

Don't know PVP (and don't care) but for PVE Dunmer will be dead with this changes.

agreed with you 100%

Wont even think about MagDK's...dunmer synergy with DK's completly ripped.

MagDK population in a DD role is gona dropp to 0 ppl now.
Either they should buff up on Engulfing to give 10% to the group and another 10% to your flame abilities, or something similar.

The Synergy between DK and Dunmer is what kept them up there with Magblades ect, now DK is completly stripped down to Tanking in Endgame PVE.

MagDK, DMG nerfed by approx 5-7%...throwing this on my very best Parse 54k -> thats arround a 3-4k DPS loss (not doin the exact math here)

mDK where already pushed out of meele DPS by Stamblades which dealt 10k more dps, now I dont even have to log my DK in anymore, except for crafting.

Vhozek

Dark Elves are literally High Elves with centuries of physical training. Remove the stamina restoration from the High Elves and give it to the Dark Elves or none of the two.

Liofa

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

it's ok, Liofa came to my house and threw a brick through my window with a note on it that said 'High Elf Templar Healers will still be great' so i'm not scared anymore.

I was aiming at your crappy laptop so you would have to buy an actual PC. Did I miss?

And just be glad people didn't think of running Nord Healers for ultigen yet... Or did they... :pepewall:

RPGplayer13579

I know this may be a hell no type of request, but can I have a free change of class token? I had my Dark Elf character as a Dragon Knight because of the Destructive Ancestry and the 7% Flame damage bonus that went with it. And since that will soon go away can I change her to either a Nightblade or maybe Necromancer.

MassTerror23

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So many mixed feelings while reading this.
Every race got sustain nerfed, except for Bretons, Altmer(?) and Redguards, but Redguards got straight up buffed on weapon builds (for some reason...) This is probably going to hit heavy armor builds in pvp, which I am looking forward to.

I am looking with worry on my Bosmer who will feel those 21% missing but can now detect people from farther away (woohoo! /s) and run very fast after dodge rolling (especially with the bow passive). I feel like the race's greatest strength was taken away and replaced with something that just can't make up for it. Reduce the sprint cost at least! Or bow skill cost (which redguards already have as well!)
There was once a time I bought a single race change token to turn my altmer templar into an imperial max health templar. This build has seen constant nerfs since then and I have already given up on it after Morrowind sustain. At least I am getting the race change refunded...
My Dunmers can't complain as long as the math works out and Dunmer are in line with other races.
Yay for magicka Khajiit. I doubt anyone was stacking health regen anyway.
Looking forward to playing my Breton with less ability cost. Reminds me of the old days. Too bad the max magicka had to go, but Altmer got rid of it too so I guess it's fair.
Might need to start wearing light armor on my Altmer DK from now on, but overall it looks alright.
Only Redguards seem way too strong in my book.

My pve Bosmer sdk stam recov is getting a buff actually. So I don’t see it as a nerf.

Emma_Overload

Sarousse wrote: »

2 points :

20% speed afer a roll dodge on a Wood Elf is clearly unbalanced and will lead to so many abuses.

Bretons are still far away from the other races, their bonuses are too weak.

You clearly have no idea how strong that 7% cost reduction is. Bretons will have the best sustain of any race, period.

Raudgrani

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Ok.
Nords are literally OP buffed. 4k resistance of EACH? Almost STATIC minor heroism is a nerf to you - HUH?
Khajiit just got 8% spell and weapon crit - the most desirable stat in a PVE DPS kit and yet you say they have 0 chance of being competitive - HUH?

Hahaha.... Seriously...

You get your "heroism" when you take damage, every ten seconds at that. In PVP, that's pretty much useless, especially since they will now be even worse in PVP. Since they will have less health AND stamina, AND health recovery, nobody will use them anyway - because this was exactly why we used them in PVP, if we did. The old typical PVP Nord with +40k Stamina, high Health/Health recovery is now out the window, so tell me how we are supposed to make use of that "heroism" you speak of. We can't be the Fury/Seventh Legion wearing guys taking all the beating anymore, they will be as weak and useless as us modern day Swedes, a pale shadow of what once was, quite literally.

3960 = 6% reduction, this now doesn't apply to bleed or oblivion damage. So please keep telling me how wonderfully buffed they are.

waitwhat

starkerealm wrote: »

Only one I'm worried about is the Redguard. Given how hard that race is pushed as "The Choice for StamDPS," buffing Adrenaline Rush feels like a mistake.

A valid concern, but they are taking a huge hit to damage output with the max resource change. For a redguard stamblade, the 10% would equal anywhere from 6-8k stamina. Reducing that to 2k is a big, and deserved, loss.

waitwhat

imredneckson wrote: »

... Most of these don't look good. Some are ok but most like Nimble for Khajiit just looks bad. 75 Stamina and Magicka recovery.... Really???

Most stam khajiit dps have very low recovery anyway, so we really don't put anything into stam recovery and the 20% is less than 75 in most cases, to say nothing of not even having a mag bonnus. This is a buff to khajiit sustain.

waitwhat

JobooAGS wrote: »

LLawlietW wrote: »

Why was redguard buffed? how does that make sense when they are already considered the best race for stamina dps. and then the second best option khajiit gets nerfed. i just dont understand how that is supposed to make sense at all. now khajiit has more health recovery than stam... but yea lets buff adrenaline rush

They nerfed the passive recovery

They also nerfed the damage output. 10% to 2k is a huge reduction.

CatchMeTrolling

Sarousse wrote: »

2 points :

20% speed afer a roll dodge on a Wood Elf is clearly unbalanced and will lead to so many abuses.

Bretons are still far away from the other races, their bonuses are too weak.

Well depends on if it’ll stack with major expedition. Even then there’s a cap on speed already and you have to burn resources just to get the buff. If anything it’ll just be annoying pertaining to stam nb gankers and archers running away.

WeerW3ir

Since when 9% percent is 1k. (argonian, nord) and 10% is 2k? (altmer)

idk

joaaocaampos wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

High Elf

• Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.

Khajiit

• Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Orc

• Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.

@ZOS_Gilliam

High Elf

• Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka after activating a Magicka Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an Magicka ability with a cast or channel time.

Khajiit

• Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 125.

Orc

• Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 1000.

Thank you.

No offense to your good judgement, but just suggesting changes is probably not very effective unless you what to offer justification for the differences you have put forward.

In other words, it lacks any meaning or warrant to be considered if you cannot take the time to explain why.

menschikov2

I am a bit Surprised. I expected atleast some buffs for example for Stamina Argonier. And how you Count some stats is also Pretty unusual. Argonians get 1k Health for 9% but other Races get 2k for 6%?
Also the Buff for Redguards seems way to strong when they even get this reg while on Range.Same Thing with the highelfs. For me this Looks like we will see no Change in the DPS-iMeta because both beste DPS-Races got buffs and some others not. Or they got some extra nerfs

Footfalls

Argonians
Full disclosure, I main a stamblade Argonian, and I think Argonians should've been nerfed because they were by far and beyond the best overall race. I'm fine with the potion passive changes, which are reasonable and bring them in line with the other races (Argonians have gone from S Tier to A Tier in my perspective). However, one major issue I have with the new Argonian passives is the healing passive change from "5% healing done and received" to "4% healing done". This changes makes the passive affect Argonian healers the most while nerfing Argonian tanks and DPS.

I would much prefer for the passive to read "healing done and received increased by 3%", which is still a nerf but keeps the theme of the previous Argonian passive.

I'd like to point out that in the previous racial balance change the Argonian passive was changed from "9% healing done" to "5% healing done and received", for the same reason that I'm advocating for "3% healing done and received" change instead. If you make the Argonian passive healing done only, it only makes Argonian healers good, but if you make it more universal by changing it to both healing done and received, it's a good bone to throw to all Argonians, be they DPS, tank, or healers. It's still a 40% nerf from their previous value of "5% healing done/received", but it's way more palatable compared to "4% healing done only".

Dunmer
These guys need help. From A tier magicka DPS to D tier (lol). You made a lot of Dunmer magicka DPS pretty mad about this change, so I think these guys could use some magicka buffs. As of now their passives makes them slightly better at doing a stamina build, but makes their magicka builds really bad when compared to Breton, Altmer, and even Khajiit. It makes them slightly better at breaking free in PvP on magicka builds, but if it comes at the cost of their magickal prowess I think I would be very sad if I had any Dunmer magicka DPS characters.

Bosmer
You nerf all the speed passives for pvp, and now you give bosmers 20% speed boost on dodge roll? These guys are going to be a pvp nighmare with this change, their other racial already reads "slightly better Bone Pirate", so with the movespeed boost I would easily call Bosmer the new OP pvp stam race, S-Tier. Just imagine, dodge roll with bow + cloak, run away at 50% speed... it's going to be absolutely annoying.

Other than the races mentioned above I love the new changes, especially the Nord and Khajiit ones.

EDIT: On a second readthrough I actually misread the Dunmer racials. They do more dmg than Bretons but have 0 sustain, so they're actually not that bad for Magicka builds. They're still below Altmer for Magicka DPS which is I think the real sticking point because a lot of people like playing Dunmer as an A-Tier magicka DPS.

Raudgrani

MassTerror23 wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Regarding you saying Bosmer is out that is a lie I’m currently a bosmer and my recov with this change will be like 950 without stam pot it’ll be at like 1150 with stam pot. Redguards will have a 700 recov and a like 850 recov with pots. So in combat your recov procs every 2 seconds. So let’s do the math for redguards first. Every 5 seconds they get 950 recov via passive and their stam recov procs twice so that’ll be 850*2=1700 so every 5 secs they get 1700+950=2650 stam. Now wood elves in 5 seconds will get 1150*2=2300 stam recov. The difference in their recov will be 2650-2300=350 recov. And a standard pve rotation is about 10 seconds so their difference in one rotation is 700 stam which isn’t that bad especially since they have the same stam gain which is a nerd for redguards and buff for wood elves. So you can’t count them out.

Also the 700 comes from the recov my character has without my stam passive.
Another thing is wood elves might come out with more than 950 recov because it flat 258 and idk if that’s applied before or after stats like recov is increased by x%

All that math, and you missed out Redguards get an 8% cost reduction too? I can't see you counting that into your equation.

waitwhat

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I predicted this An all out assault on max % stats. Effectively stealing power from EVERYONE's build.

Thanks champion system supporting people. This is the price of the power creep I was talking about.

I'm happy for the way this across-the-board downward adjustment is going.

"Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me."