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The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

  • ll_Rev
    ll_Rev
    ✭✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @ll_Rev
    That's obvious but again last time I checked classes were implemented in this game to differentiate one from another, if something hinders a class more than another (as long as it's not a massive impact) then I call that sound game-play.

    It's like how major mending benefits templars more so than other classes due to their innate ability to heal or how major defile benefits nightblades more since their tool-set is geared towards sustained/high damage.

    Just because one particular class or two is having a disadvantage to reduction of AoE damage in-comparison to all other classes, doesn't mean it's broken so again it's a clear L2P issue.

    thats the dumbest argument i've heard if there is counters like evasion against templars then there should be counters against every other class as well. I personally don't agree with counters like evasion(especially wings) because they just lead to more imbalance among classes. Not everything is a l2p issue
    Edited by ll_Rev on January 5, 2019 4:28AM
  • _Ahala_
    _Ahala_
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    We should also have 100% uptime buffs that reduce the damage of single target abilities or dots by 25%... fair is fair
  • GlorphNoldorin
    GlorphNoldorin
    ✭✭✭
    Hello all, and Happy New Year!

    As for the long-term plan for Combat, that effort is still in progress and we don't have an ETA right now. As I mentioned before, this is a non-trivial effort and we still have updates to deliver in U21 and beyond.

    Thanks for your patience. It's going to be an exciting year!

    I must be too much of a cynic to believe any of this garbage. This game that many have spent nearly 5 years on and look at it now. Performance not just in cyrodil but as anyone from Oceania will tell you very much in pve is at an all time low.

    There are not enough words to say how badly pvp is performing in cyrodil. In pve using a vpn to get 330ping for the ridiculously stacked mechanics and one shots that the 'combat' team deems is the only way to make dungeons and trials now a days is just not something I am looking to get more of.

    And then of course the racial balancing in coming. Even if it was 'amazing' what does any of that compare to the endless bugs and lack of performance in the game.

    As usual the combat team is so far out of touch with the realities of the game and after all these patches of nerfs and chopping and changing to keep coming back with .....a vision for the game is not trivial. No ***, it's taken you 5 years to decide we need a vision. Give me a break and do something. My money really seeks to go elsewhere.
  • MaxwellC
    MaxwellC
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    ✭✭
    @ll_Rev
    Lol what? The skill evasion was changed to reducing AoE instead of dodge chance and this skill is available to everyone yet you feel buffs that provide counter measures to some class abilities are bad?

    You even made the asinine statement that wings are bad because of it providing counter play.

    Glad someone as yourself isn’t in charge of anything combat related nor has a voice because clearly you’re advocating for a game where you all are the same I.e no classes but just skills.

    So again if you want a game where we’re all on the same footing in terms of debuffs and buffs then you’re playing the wrong game because as I concisely stated buffs/debuffs greatly, moderately, or have minuscule affects on each class which is based solely on their skill slots and the way they play.

    Convo over because I’m clearly arguing against someone who doesn’t understand this games concept.
    不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
    XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
    XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
    XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
    PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」
    Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
    Coined by Maxwel
    l
  • ll_Rev
    ll_Rev
    ✭✭✭
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @ll_Rev
    Lol what? The skill evasion was changed to reducing AoE instead of dodge chance and this skill is available to everyone yet you feel buffs that provide counter measures to some class abilities are bad?

    You even made the asinine statement that wings are bad because of it providing counter play.

    Glad someone as yourself isn’t in charge of anything combat related nor has a voice because clearly you’re advocating for a game where you all are the same I.e no classes but just skills.

    So again if you want a game where we’re all on the same footing in terms of debuffs and buffs then you’re playing the wrong game because as I concisely stated buffs/debuffs greatly, moderately, or have minuscule affects on each class which is based solely on their skill slots and the way they play.

    Convo over because I’m clearly arguing against someone who doesn’t understand this games concept.

    Dude what are you talking about? Wings completely shutdown any magsorc or magblade, and evasion effects my stamplar more than other classes like Nightblade, which is untouched. Why should there be "counterplay" to some classes while others have none? These aren't skills of "counterplay" they are skills of imbalance.
    Edited by ll_Rev on January 5, 2019 8:08PM
  • ll_Rev
    ll_Rev
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    ll_Rev wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @ll_Rev
    Lol what? The skill evasion was changed to reducing AoE instead of dodge chance and this skill is available to everyone yet you feel buffs that provide counter measures to some class abilities are bad?

    You even made the asinine statement that wings are bad because of it providing counter play.

    Glad someone as yourself isn’t in charge of anything combat related nor has a voice because clearly you’re advocating for a game where you all are the same I.e no classes but just skills.

    So again if you want a game where we’re all on the same footing in terms of debuffs and buffs then you’re playing the wrong game because as I concisely stated buffs/debuffs greatly, moderately, or have minuscule affects on each class which is based solely on their skill slots and the way they play.

    Convo over because I’m clearly arguing against someone who doesn’t understand this games concept.

    Dude what are you talking about? Wings completely shutdown any magsorc or magblade, and evasion effects my stamplar more than other classes like Nightblade, which is untouched. Why should there be "counterplay" to some classes while others have none? These aren't skills of "counterplay" they are skills of imbalance.

  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭
    Neoauspex wrote: »
    Hello all, and Happy New Year!

    Clearly many of you are chomping at the bit to learn more details about the U21 changes. As mentioned in the Class Rep Meeting Notes, our intent is to provide a more in-depth preview of the racial passive adjustments prior to publishing the patch notes for PTS 1. You can expect that preview in the next couple weeks. The rest of the changes will be detailed in the patch notes.

    As for the long-term plan for Combat, that effort is still in progress and we don't have an ETA right now. As I mentioned before, this is a non-trivial effort and we still have updates to deliver in U21 and beyond.

    Thanks for your patience. It's going to be an exciting year!

    I'll gladly trade a full year of balance changes and content updates for a performance pass on Cyrodiil.

    Both of those things are done by separate teams. That being said I also want them to stop doing balance changes cause clearly they don't have a clue how to do things.

    Recruiting a stamblade main to solve balance problems, in a game dominated by stamblades... only in eso..
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 6, 2019 12:11AM
  • MajorDomeShot
    MajorDomeShot
    Soul Shriven
    Sooo... passive morphs for racial skill lines. Let me know I have a lot of other great ideas
  • ll_Rev
    ll_Rev
    ✭✭✭
    ll_Rev wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @ll_Rev
    Lol what? The skill evasion was changed to reducing AoE instead of dodge chance and this skill is available to everyone yet you feel buffs that provide counter measures to some class abilities are bad?

    You even made the asinine statement that wings are bad because of it providing counter play.

    Glad someone as yourself isn’t in charge of anything combat related nor has a voice because clearly you’re advocating for a game where you all are the same I.e no classes but just skills.

    So again if you want a game where we’re all on the same footing in terms of debuffs and buffs then you’re playing the wrong game because as I concisely stated buffs/debuffs greatly, moderately, or have minuscule affects on each class which is based solely on their skill slots and the way they play.

    Convo over because I’m clearly arguing against someone who doesn’t understand this games concept.

    Dude what are you talking about? Wings completely shutdown any magsorc or magblade, and evasion effects my stamplar more than other classes like Nightblade, which is untouched. Why should there be "counterplay" to some classes while others have none? These aren't skills of "counterplay" they are skills of imbalance.

    This is horrible logic. Wings doesn't completely shutdown either one of those builds. Haunting Curse, Mage's Wrath, Negate, Lightning Splash, any summoned pet damage, lightning destro/resto heavy attack, and 5 out of 6 destro abilities are effective against wings. So, you can't spam destructive reach and frags against a DK. :|

    As for a MagBlade- again, you can use 5 out of 6 of the destro staff skills against the DK, you can shut down their wings with your light attacks as you build up to spectral bow, your shadow image can shoot through damn walls at the dk (and it's not even reflected). Also- let's not forget that you have the option to have a ranged bar and a melee bar. Considering that Soul Shred, Concealed Weapon, Mass Hysteria, Lotus Fan, and Sap Essence are all melee abilities. So a magblade who only wants to use half of their toolkit so that they can pewpew from a distance is gimping themselves. :'(




    you clearly don’t know anything if you actually think light attacks and assassins will won’t get reflected, it’s also funny how you mention melee mag nb as if it’s actually a viable alternative.
    Edited by ll_Rev on January 7, 2019 3:14AM
  • ll_Rev
    ll_Rev
    ✭✭✭
    ll_Rev wrote: »
    ll_Rev wrote: »
    MaxwellC wrote: »
    @ll_Rev
    Lol what? The skill evasion was changed to reducing AoE instead of dodge chance and this skill is available to everyone yet you feel buffs that provide counter measures to some class abilities are bad?

    You even made the asinine statement that wings are bad because of it providing counter play.

    Glad someone as yourself isn’t in charge of anything combat related nor has a voice because clearly you’re advocating for a game where you all are the same I.e no classes but just skills.

    So again if you want a game where we’re all on the same footing in terms of debuffs and buffs then you’re playing the wrong game because as I concisely stated buffs/debuffs greatly, moderately, or have minuscule affects on each class which is based solely on their skill slots and the way they play.

    Convo over because I’m clearly arguing against someone who doesn’t understand this games concept.

    Dude what are you talking about? Wings completely shutdown any magsorc or magblade, and evasion effects my stamplar more than other classes like Nightblade, which is untouched. Why should there be "counterplay" to some classes while others have none? These aren't skills of "counterplay" they are skills of imbalance.

    This is horrible logic. Wings doesn't completely shutdown either one of those builds. Haunting Curse, Mage's Wrath, Negate, Lightning Splash, any summoned pet damage, lightning destro/resto heavy attack, and 5 out of 6 destro abilities are effective against wings. So, you can't spam destructive reach and frags against a DK. :|

    As for a MagBlade- again, you can use 5 out of 6 of the destro staff skills against the DK, you can shut down their wings with your light attacks as you build up to spectral bow, your shadow image can shoot through damn walls at the dk (and it's not even reflected). Also- let's not forget that you have the option to have a ranged bar and a melee bar. Considering that Soul Shred, Concealed Weapon, Mass Hysteria, Lotus Fan, and Sap Essence are all melee abilities. So a magblade who only wants to use half of their toolkit so that they can pewpew from a distance is gimping themselves. :'(




    you clearly don’t know anything if you actually think light attacks and assassins will won’t get reflected, it’s also funny how you mention melee mag nb as if it’s actually a viable alternative.

    The light attacks are meant to use up the four projectiles that the DK wings reflect. That's how I expend a DK's wings when I'm playing on my MagBlade. Once I've expended their wings- I use a few more light attacks to build up to Spectral Bow and fire if they haven't flapped again. A DK's wings are expensive to spam- so you'll eventually wear them out of magicka.

    As for melee Magblades- you really have no clue, do you? You've never Lotus fanned into a group of two or three, hit your Eye of the Storm ultimate and then spammed Sap Essence while Magic Detonation explodes?

    You're one of those guys that likes to pewpew ::cloak:: pewpew ::cloak:: until you get spectral bow up and then fire it off... then spam impale until they die, huh? You want to be an untouchable glass cannon with no consequences. Good luck with you ideals of "balance".

    A bomblade? Lmao are you serious? And spamming light attacks does nothing as a good DK can keep there wings up.
  • paganslyer
    paganslyer
    Soul Shriven
    @ZOS_RobGarrett

    Thanks for the informative message!

    I would like to point out that an update on PVP balancing... its the the most important thing for most eso players.
    now days the game its literally unbalanced....As a result.. many PVP fans leave the game.

    so first the race balance its great.
    If you really allow to morphs race passive skills it will be great.

    But the most important thing is ARMORS balance!!
    now days..This aspect is simply unbalanced.
    Recent changes in light armor (shield cup, critical strike and resistance on shields)
    Caused a weak defense capability,
    And unbalanced in relation to other armor.
    The survivability of heavy armor was reduced during the in The last patches..
    .
    My suggestions are:
    Redesign of the armors passives.
    the light armor need to get A proper bonus That takes into account the fact
    that light armor users have low hp and low resistance...so they need to get A certain advantage that balances the ability to survive.
    heavy armor need to be With higher survivability.
    and also in medium armor case... There is a feeling that you can design the passives In a more correct way.
    Evasion and its morphs ...and basically all the armors skills Need to be redesigned With great effort to achieve maximum balance.

    Other topics for PVP players..and all eso players:
    new classes (5 its not enough)
    cyrodiil: this area need to be improve Which will make players more scattered around the map
    For example dungeons Mines and fortresses in cyrodiil are Usually empty, if rare items will added to To these places, more players will arrive immediately.

    imperial city :
    same as cyrodiil...not enough players actually go there.
    All the cosneft should be reconsidered In order to enable PVP players An interesting and challenging open world experience

    hope that eso always become better (:
    Edited by paganslyer on January 8, 2019 1:13PM
  • SunRaider
    SunRaider
    ✭✭
    What you should do about racials is have a pool with all the racials and each player could chose theyre own independante of race.

    Split it in 4 pools , since there are 4 racial passives , and a player could chose for his character 1 passive from each pool .

    That way theres no more imbalance since all have access to everything , and the races becom just cosmetic.

  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    This is a copy and paste from the Templar thread. This is a CC issue too. If light armor wearers have no EFFECTIVE way of breaking CC's constantly we need our shields buffed up. The Restoring Focus or Channeled Focus for Templars needs to be better. Because CC's are breaking the game! Why do Nightblades or MagiSorcs need to have moves that completely immobilize the opponent anyway? Especially if the opponent's light armor provides paper thin defense and the shields need to be constantly recast?
    Magicka Templars need stamina perks or better passives for stamina right now. The problem is that defensive maneuvers like blocking, dodge rolling, and breaking free deplete the stamina reserves extremely quickly. Unless ESO wants all magicka templar to switch to heavy armor for the necessary resistances light armor will be done for. I have legendary quality light armor on and even with the rune buff it doesn't do me any good if I can't move at all. I'm just a sitting duck. It's to the point that I don't even bother blocking anymore. I'm just trying to heal through the incoming damage because blocking kills any possibility to break free.

    I forgot to mention that while I'm CC'd, not only is my stamina depleted but I'm draining my magicka trying to heal through the damage long enough to break free, which rarely works out.

    ...

    I have sword and shield on the front with all the perks. Restoration on the back with defending trait.
    I have a protective necklace.
    I also wear two pieces of fortified brass and my restoration staff is fortified brass giving me additional health and resistance for when I'm CC'd.
    I also have one psijic skill, race against time to improve my mobility, on that bar which has a perk that gives me an additional damage shield when blocking.
    My three pieces of Innate Axiom gives me about 1020 additional stamina.

    Mind you, blocking is a last resort. It so happens that when I get CC'd, which is basically when anyone even looks at me, I either spend the stamina breaking free or blockcasting my heals trying to stay alive. But it really feels like I'm delaying the inevitable in those situations.

    I don't want to be a vampire. That kind of ruins being a templar.

  • Deathlord92
    I love this idea I play a Breton stamblade tht because in previous elder scrolls games I always played a Breton assassin Breton being my favourite race rogue my class and very hyped to see what you guys got planned 🙂
  • Deepblue962
    Hi all,

    I wanted to take moment to share some info about how we’re approaching Combat updates in U21.



    ...
    [*] The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.


    ...
    [/list]

    That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

    1. I hope this means equalized power, but equal in different ways, requiring something unique to get there, e.g. playstyle, gear, etc. Otherwise, picking one race over the other becomes moot, and only about looks.


    2. (Wish List) Is there any way to make the game something other than, "put all 64 attributes into Magicka" or " "put all 64 attributes into Stamina"? "Maybe a few points into health if you're too squishy." Other than the two extremes for dps and heal, there's the tank, "dump into health until some magic number is hit, then put the rest into Magicka or Stamina. It seems that a huge opportunity is missed for making hybrid characters in varying ratios, viable. The challenge of finding the right combination that rocks for your particular character build. Anyhoo, just my $0.02.


    Not wanting to hijack the thread. Thank you for giving us updates on the teams thinking and strategy.
  • DanteMR1995
    DanteMR1995
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    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
  • Wildberryjack
    Wildberryjack
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    "When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

    Stamina build = Redguard or go home
    Magicka build = Altmer or Dunmer or go home

    A change here would be nice yes.


    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
    I have a MagBlade Vampire Khajiit. It would be nice if he wasn't gimped due to racials.
    The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso
  • Deathlord92
    "When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

    Stamina build = Redguard or go home
    Magicka build = Altmer or Dunmer or go home

    A change here would be nice yes.


    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
    I have a MagBlade Vampire Khajiit. It would be nice if he wasn't gimped due to racials.
    "When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

    Stamina build = Redguard or go home
    Magicka build = Altmer or Dunmer or go home

    A change here would be nice yes.


    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
    I have a MagBlade Vampire Khajiit. It would be nice if he wasn't gimped due to racials.
    "When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

    Stamina build = Redguard or go home
    Magicka build = Altmer or Dunmer or go home

    A change here would be nice yes.


    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
    I have a MagBlade Vampire Khajiit. It would be nice if he wasn't gimped due to racials.

  • Girl_Number8
    Girl_Number8
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    So are you going to give race change tokens for free or was this part of the balance too? :|
  • JazzyNapkin
    JazzyNapkin
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    "When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role."

    Stamina build = Redguard or go home
    Magicka build = Altmer or Dunmer or go home

    A change here would be nice yes.


    For racial balance. Please consider just implementing a birth star. Just like in other TES games. Allow the player to choose their combat oreinted passive while the race flavor remains lock on the race. I did a passing stab at it in a nerf redguard thread. I can go get it if anyone is interested. But please don't just change the race meta. Change the system. Let cosmetic choices be cosmetic and combat choices be combat.

    This.... Really want to use Khajiit with magicka.
    I have a MagBlade Vampire Khajiit. It would be nice if he wasn't gimped due to racials.

    I agree with your statement on the changes for sure... I have a Khajiit Magplar who is a Priestess of Meridia as well as a Khajiit MagDK who spent years studying fire magic in Vvardenfell, so magicka passives would be nice. Same goes for my Breton Stamblade as well, but stamina passives for him.
    Edited by JazzyNapkin on January 13, 2019 4:57AM
  • Deathlord92
    Breton stamblade for life 🙂
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    ++
    ditch current meta, really 95% of players will perceive it as good changes if any race can be tank, stamdps, magdps and healer without rendering racial passives useless. I mean now melee high elf useless, magicka redguard useless etc, it's not ok.
  • IronWooshu
    IronWooshu
    ✭✭✭
    I think some of you are getting ahead of yourselves on class racials rebalance. They said they want to make each class viable for each role which means DPS, Tank and Heals so I highly doubt Redguard's are all the sudden gonna be good magicka users and Bretons good stamina users.

    EDIT: To expand on that, each class is only gonna be good at one DPS role whether that is Stam or Magicka and not both or either or.

    I can maybe see Imperial, Argonians getting hybrid racials tho.
    Edited by IronWooshu on January 13, 2019 11:33PM
  • Deathlord92
    Thn I look at the Breton knight in the eso trailer he was an extremely powerful stamblade if u ask me 🙂
  • Deathlord92
    I got my finger crossed and my hopes up for stam racial passives for my Breton 🙂
  • Thalidar
    Thalidar
    ✭✭✭

    I've discovered it's way more interesting, fun and rewarding to pick a race which doesn't suit a class and figure out a way to make it shine.

    Hence why I totally love my Bosmer mag templar! What I can't beat I can dodge and run away from :wink:


  • Nisekev
    Nisekev
    As long as upcoming Necro class gets a viable 2-handed Death Knight build (and all classes having 2-handed viable not only in PVP), I'll accept any combat balance changes.
  • Darthbell
    Darthbell
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    Now that the live stream is over and we learned necromancers will be a reskin of wardens can we get an update if any bugs will be addressed and when the race "balance" changes will be posted? I rarely play anymore and as I don't care about free housing items I dumped my ESO plus especially given that the bulk of the new content is no longer included, however, I still hold out hope that there is a chance that this will become a less bug riddled experience and as fun to play as it once was on console.
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