Combat Update in U21 - A New Approach

lokulin

If they nerf Argonian "Resourceful" passive they better bloody give sorcs a way to regen stamina while holding block like DKs and other classes do. If they don't I'd like a refund for my race change token.

lokulin

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Reistoph

Maybe add racial passive only for sustaining, and not affecting dps? Also, please add longsword as new 2H weapons for 2H crits.

Bam_Bam

Very very sketchy idea imho. Stop adding/tweaking nerfing things just for the sake of it. This is why you COMPLETELY alienate the veterans who have subbed since it became a thing.

Your changes can destroy characters because there is almost no thought about the destructive impact that these careless alterations have on those characters.

How about fixing things that have been broken and ignored, like the multitude of ruined, worthless skills?

Racial passives serve their purpose just fine. Some, such as Nord, Breton could do with some love. but why mess up all the others when they are absolutely fine as is?

EDIT: APOLOGY - tired and grumpy after work. I'll wait for more robust info before passing judgement. *crawls back under his rock*

FrancisCrawford

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Very very sketchy idea imho. Stop adding/tweaking nerfing things just for the sake of it. This is why you COMPLETELY alienate the veterans who have subbe

Some of the racial passives are absurdly weak on the numbers, e.g. Red Diamond or Breton spell resistance. Meanwhile, Argonians' sustain passive is no stronger in PvE than the max stats ones. Yeah, it's burstier than other strong passives, which could be an issue in PvP -- but hey, one should get something in return for having to look like a lizard.

IZZEFlameLash

Arato wrote: »

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IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-
2) Fix Animation Canceling.-
3) No more DLC's (First fix the base game: Lag)

Ty in advance

5 skills + ultimate are fine (10 + 2 ultimates really) limited action skill systems make your build more important. Meaningful CHOICES in gameplay help make the game more interesting and fun.

Like with any racial bonuses, if they homogenize all racial benefits to be the same then race becomes another meaningless uninteresting choice. I want some more meaningful choices, race, and the skills you slot and weapon setups you choose and whether you go full stam full magicka, or tank are about the only meaningful choices in the game.

Yeah build sure is important with everyone running the same skillsets basically for any particular weapon/class setup.

There's always going to be meta builds or cookie cutter builds, sure, but it's still more interesting than having all skills available at all times and the deciding factor is how many keyboard shortcuts you can macro and frankly a lot of redundant skills that the only difference in them is that they're on different cooldowns.

Point was that we all use the same skill sets more or less regardless of builds. We cannot have variety. Might as well have all skills available. We cannot specialize in the way older games of this genre offered. I cannot specialize in one skill for example to kill people. So yeah...

We don't necessarily use the same skills though, there are different builds, a handful for each class and different builds for PVE and PVP.. Better than just who has the best macro autohotkeys for their rotation.

and frankly youy might as well just go to another game if you want World of Warcraft style 8 hotbars bs. The limited action skillset was a deliberate design choice in this game, it suits consoles which is a big part of the playerbase,, and frankly I prefer it it's a big reason why I play the game. I get really tired of having to keybind 80 f'ing redundant skills on different cooldowns. If that's what you want. just go away, please. Don't suggest ruining this game, just go back to WoW.

I am pretty sure I have never seen a video with drastic skill bar difference. 1 or 2 flex spots maybe, but those spots also tend to be filled with same skills everyone uses in a particular situation. But okay. If you say so.

erlewine

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

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Aixy wrote: »

1) Five slots is not enough for our bars (Add more skill slots).-

Yes 5 is. Also the game is made for Console as well. There are no more buttons

[/quote]

Imagine a world with more buttons. We have the technology.

efster

buff bosmer.

Maryal

The importance of Wood Elf passives-

Wood elfs passives and don't need to be buffed or nerfed. Their racial passives are a great fit for playing a stamblade - one of the few race/class combos that allow people with certain visual disabilities a way to participate in the game in a meaningful way.
A small (but not insubstantial) portion of the population suffers from a type of visual disability caused by flashing/flickering lights (i.e., the visual effects of many skills/abilities) ... this type of exposure can trigger things like motion sickness, nausea, migraines, epilepsy, etc. Many gamers with this problem work around it by playing a stealthy/roguish character. In this game that typically means RP'ing as a stealthy thief and/or a stealthy hard-hitting assassin.

These folks have to be selective about the content they participate in and they don't want to be limited to vanilla pve content. Combining or layering the wood elf racial passives, NB passives, and medium armor passives has given a lot of these folks a way to create the type of build that works with their limitations ... allowing them to participate, in a meaningful way, (have fun, get immersed, RP, etc.) in a fair amount of the content (mostly pve).

I'm not saying that these passives should never be changed. All I am asking is for 'the powers that be' to consider what I've said when making their changes.

Merlin13KAGL

Maryal wrote: »

The importance of Wood Elf passives-

Wood elfs passives and don't need to be buffed or nerfed. Their racial passives are a great fit for playing a stamblade - one of the few race/class combos that allow people with certain visual disabilities a way to participate in the game in a meaningful way.
A small (but not insubstantial) portion of the population suffers from a type of visual disability caused by flashing/flickering lights (i.e., the visual effects of many skills/abilities) ... this type of exposure can trigger things like motion sickness, nausea, migraines, epilepsy, etc. Many gamers with this problem work around it by playing a stealthy/roguish character. In this game that typically means RP'ing as a stealthy thief and/or a stealthy hard-hitting assassin.

These folks have to be selective about the content they participate in and they don't want to be limited to vanilla pve content. Combining or layering the wood elf racial passives, NB passives, and medium armor passives has given a lot of these folks a way to create the type of build that works with their limitations ... allowing them to participate, in a meaningful way, (have fun, get immersed, RP, etc.) in a fair amount of the content (mostly pve).

I'm not saying that these passives should never be changed. All I am asking is for 'the powers that be' to consider what I've said when making their changes.

@Maryal how do you handle other player effects? It's Stamblade that gives you the more subtle visuals, not the wood elf passives.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Neoauspex wrote: »

Multiple effective options... Racial passive morphs?

I'll pledge my immortal soul to any Aedra, Daedra, Magna-Ge, or naked Nord (preferably Rigurt) that makes this happen.

TheCabbageborn

yo ESO devs, idk if this'll get noticed, but my feedback is this: I want weird character concepts without losing out completely on racial passives. ultimately it doesn't matter that much to us filthy casuals who'll never see endgame, but making a Stamina character with Magicka passives is kind of a bummer. I want to do things like a Redguard mage or a Altmer rogue or a Dunmer knight. it keeps people like me buying character slots and costumes and motifs and grinding out to 50. I don't even RP, I just like to play The Fashion Scrolls. anyways, if you could make races more adaptable towards their primary resource, and weapons/armor, I'd really appreciate it. cheers, dudes.

ramboing

I'm not interested in playing non-optimized characters, so if you change the races, you should do one of the following:

A ) Reduce the cost of race change tokens to something reasonable like $2 each, in which case you might make an extra $20 off me

B ) Give everyone a race change token for each character that expires after a week or two.

If you change the races so that I feel my characters can no longer be optimized as is, you force me to choose between paying the ridiculous race change tokens for each character, which I seem to remember being about $30 each, or quitting the game and moving on.

Maura_Neysa

lokulin wrote: »

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jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Umm... Hello Dark Deal. Its only 2.5 times the stamina of DK Igneous Shield, plus the over time effect after, thats half as strong as Warden Netch

lokulin

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

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lokulin wrote: »

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Umm... Hello Dark Deal. Its only 2.5 times the stamina of DK Igneous Shield, plus the over time effect after, thats half as strong as Warden Netch

First, you lose block for about 1.5 seconds while using Dark Deal. DKs also have access to "battle roar" in addition to "helping hands" so you need to factor that in to the equation. 9200 stamina from using an ultimate like Magma Shell.

EpicRekkoning

I wouldn't mind seeing a change to the weapon/armor proficiencies that would be impactful at end game. Something like an increase of 25% to the effectiveness of the weapon/armor passives. This would impact the cost per skill and benefit for using that skill line. If you look at the different races and their proficiencies, I think this would open the door to build specific playstyles, hybrid builds, and new races playing different roles. It would also make it feel more like the race is proficient with that weapon or armor skill type.

Bretons light armor
Orc heavy armor
Redguard/imperial sword and board
Argonian resto
Dunmer dual weild
Nord 2h
Altmer destro
Bosmer bow
Khajit medium armor

maciopa

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

It would also make it feel more like the race is proficient with that weapon or armor skill type.

Bretons light armor
Orc heavy armor
Redguard/imperial sword and board
Argonian resto
Dunmer dual weild
Nord 2h
Altmer destro
Bosmer bow
Khajit medium armor

I do not know what I do wrong (or you do wrong) but I do not find those armour/weapon skill lines useful at all as all my lvl 50 chars got all their skill lines maxed before even hitting 50... Yeah - those could help a bit while leveling but honestly - I haven't noticed my my leveling up pace disturbed by different race to class combo - and I already have 16 slots filled with different combos (yes I am an altoholic).
So in short words - instead of having those (above mentioned skill lines) I would rather have something more useful (like haste, magicka or stamina bonuses).

luen79rwb17_ESO

I totally agree with the path you guys are drawing here, racials should be something close to insignificant. Right now if you don't pick the BIS race for your class you're gimped.

I really like the idea to make a different path if you pick a magicka or stamina builds. So for example stamina orcs should have a different set of bonuses than a magicka orc. Orc shamans are a thing you know

shiningforce

maciopa wrote: »

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EpicRekkoning wrote: »

It would also make it feel more like the race is proficient with that weapon or armor skill type.

Bretons light armor
Orc heavy armor
Redguard/imperial sword and board
Argonian resto
Dunmer dual weild
Nord 2h
Altmer destro
Bosmer bow
Khajit medium armor

I do not know what I do wrong (or you do wrong) but I do not find those armour/weapon skill lines useful at all as all my lvl 50 chars got all their skill lines maxed before even hitting 50... Yeah - those could help a bit while leveling but honestly - I haven't noticed my my leveling up pace disturbed by different race to class combo - and I already have 16 slots filled with different combos (yes I am an altoholic).
So in short words - instead of having those (above mentioned skill lines) I would rather have something more useful (like haste, magicka or stamina bonuses).

Honestly i see both of your comments disheartening. Doing what either of you suggests just forces people to have to play certain races, yes forces (If you want to play magicka to the best of your ability you are forced to play High elf, dark elf and Breton) We dont need more of this we need less of this. I suggest going back to Elder scrolls origins where you pick a race and put in your OWN stats from the get go, what you choose later IN game affects your character. There are Khajit magic user npcs for example all over the place; yet, almost nobody uses them as playable characters because of how their racial passives are set up. Let people choose their races and set up their classes the way they see fit. If Racial passives stay they should be harmless passives like the argonian swim, or wood elf fall damage.

_Ahala_

Arch Mage Shalidor is a Nord... LMAO, guess that noob didn’t know about racial passives and min maxing when he was in character creation... oh wait, he is one of the strongest mages in the lore... must be hacking

Maura_Neysa

lokulin wrote: »

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Maura_Neysa wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Umm... Hello Dark Deal. Its only 2.5 times the stamina of DK Igneous Shield, plus the over time effect after, thats half as strong as Warden Netch

First, you lose block for about 1.5 seconds while using Dark Deal. DKs also have access to "battle roar" in addition to "helping hands" so you need to factor that in to the equation. 9200 stamina from using an ultimate like Magma Shell.

Helping Hands 990 Stam per cast
1 Shield cast every 6sec
990/3 = 330 Stam/2sec

Battle Roar
War Horn every 50sec
46 Stam per Ulti point
200ulti/50sec*46 = 368 Stam/2sec

DK Total
330+368=698 Regen equivalent

Dark Deal every 20sec
3600 instant Stam + 2400 Stam over 20 second = 600 Stam/2sec

Dark Deal every 10sec
(3600 instat Stam + 1200 Stam over 10 seconds) * 2 = 960 Stam/2 Seconds

Deep Thoughts for the equivalent 3 seconds of cast time, spaced out over 20 seconds.
1914 Stam * 3 second = 5742 Stam / 20 sec = 120 Stam/2sec

Dont forget the sizable heal too. If you are perma-blocking then sure DK (and Warden) can pull that off. However if you can find 1.5sec every 20 sec you are already matching DK, And f you can find more time, it gets even better.

Schattenfluegel

lokulin wrote: »

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jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

My SorcTank is an Highelf... ^^ And its going to work in Vettrials too.

lokulin

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

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lokulin wrote: »

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

My SorcTank is an Highelf... ^^ And its going to work in Vettrials too.

Sure, anything is possible. I sorc tanked as an Altmer for a long time as well. It is possible to make lots of combinations "work". It doesn't mean that taking away a viable method of sustain is a good idea.

nud3_voxel

They better give away a free race change token per character for a little while. I have 10 characters and I'm not paying 30k crowns just to keep playing and stay relevant. We all created our characters based on the passives given at the time and it would not be fair to change them and ask us to pay to be able to race switch.

lokulin

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

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lokulin wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Umm... Hello Dark Deal. Its only 2.5 times the stamina of DK Igneous Shield, plus the over time effect after, thats half as strong as Warden Netch

First, you lose block for about 1.5 seconds while using Dark Deal. DKs also have access to "battle roar" in addition to "helping hands" so you need to factor that in to the equation. 9200 stamina from using an ultimate like Magma Shell.

Helping Hands 990 Stam per cast
1 Shield cast every 6sec
990/3 = 330 Stam/2sec

Battle Roar
War Horn every 50sec
46 Stam per Ulti point
200ulti/50sec*46 = 368 Stam/2sec

DK Total
330+368=698 Regen equivalent

Dark Deal every 20sec
3600 instant Stam + 2400 Stam over 20 second = 600 Stam/2sec

Dark Deal every 10sec
(3600 instat Stam + 1200 Stam over 10 seconds) * 2 = 960 Stam/2 Seconds

Deep Thoughts for the equivalent 3 seconds of cast time, spaced out over 20 seconds.
1914 Stam * 3 second = 5742 Stam / 20 sec = 120 Stam/2sec

Dont forget the sizable heal too. If you are perma-blocking then sure DK (and Warden) can pull that off. However if you can find 1.5sec every 20 sec you are already matching DK, And f you can find more time, it gets even better.

So going back to the original point.

Resourceful gives me back 4620 stam/health/mag.
1 potion every 45s
204 Stam/2sec.

Not even as good as helping hands.

1 Potion Every 25 seconds using two infused potion glyphs
370 Stam/2sec

But then you lose the ability to use other glyphs. Hardly OP.

Of course an Argonian DK tank has access to this and their class passives. So to play devils advocate, would you say that "Helping Hands" and "Battle Roar" are over powered and need be adjusted?

maciopa

shiningforce wrote: »

Honestly i see both of your comments disheartening. Doing what either of you suggests just forces people to have to play certain races, yes forces (If you want to play magicka to the best of your ability you are forced to play High elf, dark elf and Breton) We dont need more of this we need less of this. I suggest going back to Elder scrolls origins where you pick a race and put in your OWN stats from the get go, what you choose later IN game affects your character. There are Khajit magic user npcs for example all over the place; yet, almost nobody uses them as playable characters because of how their racial passives are set up. Let people choose their races and set up their classes the way they see fit. If Racial passives stay they should be harmless passives like the argonian swim, or wood elf fall damage.

Seems you do not know what you are writting about, just take a look there - racial passives from Elder Scrolls series:

part 2 - Daggerfall :
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races

part 3 - Morrowind :
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Races_(Morrowind)

etc etc
There were ALWAYS races more suitable to play certain roles in Elder Scrolls and min-maxers were always picking those races.

You represent a view of a min/maxer in the game (your words back that up), but I am not. I play whatever race/class combo I like (thus, for example, my stamina based templar is an orcish girl) that's why I already have 16 slots filled in.
BUT -> I do agree with previous posters who demand free race change token for every character owned if some drastic changes to racial passives will be made. People made their choices and commitments based of a state of the game at the certain point of time. Changing that without their consent could be deemed illegal -> Imagine yourself - you parked a car in a free spot in the morning - on your way back to your car in the evening you notice that somebody planted a sign "No Parking Zone" and your car has a clamp on one of its wheels and you are forced to pay a fine for parking in a restricted place. This is what happens to the game when its "developers" gimp/nerf a class or a race from a legal point of view. That's why I oppose any form of nerfing/gimping in any game I play. You may buff other, under powered classes/races but not the other way around.

React

As long as argonian healing gets shafted, I'm totally cool with this.

Also, you'd better be sliding some race change tokens our way for free. Especially to players who have purchased them previously.

Maura_Neysa

lokulin wrote: »

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Maura_Neysa wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

lokulin wrote: »

jhall03 wrote: »

I recon I’ll hold off on race changing to an Argonian. Honestly I do hope they adjust that OP potion passive. It shouldn’t give back to all three resource pools.

It might be OP in PvP but it is nicely balanced when playing a PvE sorc tank as it is pretty much the only way sorcs can get back stamina while blocking mirroring DK class passives.

Umm... Hello Dark Deal. Its only 2.5 times the stamina of DK Igneous Shield, plus the over time effect after, thats half as strong as Warden Netch

First, you lose block for about 1.5 seconds while using Dark Deal. DKs also have access to "battle roar" in addition to "helping hands" so you need to factor that in to the equation. 9200 stamina from using an ultimate like Magma Shell.

Helping Hands 990 Stam per cast
1 Shield cast every 6sec
990/3 = 330 Stam/2sec

Battle Roar
War Horn every 50sec
46 Stam per Ulti point
200ulti/50sec*46 = 368 Stam/2sec

DK Total
330+368=698 Regen equivalent

Dark Deal every 20sec
3600 instant Stam + 2400 Stam over 20 second = 600 Stam/2sec

Dark Deal every 10sec
(3600 instat Stam + 1200 Stam over 10 seconds) * 2 = 960 Stam/2 Seconds

Deep Thoughts for the equivalent 3 seconds of cast time, spaced out over 20 seconds.
1914 Stam * 3 second = 5742 Stam / 20 sec = 120 Stam/2sec

Dont forget the sizable heal too. If you are perma-blocking then sure DK (and Warden) can pull that off. However if you can find 1.5sec every 20 sec you are already matching DK, And f you can find more time, it gets even better.

So going back to the original point.

Resourceful gives me back 4620 stam/health/mag.
1 potion every 45s
204 Stam/2sec.

Not even as good as helping hands.

1 Potion Every 25 seconds using two infused potion glyphs
370 Stam/2sec

But then you lose the ability to use other glyphs. Hardly OP.

Of course an Argonian DK tank has access to this and their class passives. So to play devils advocate, would you say that "Helping Hands" and "Battle Roar" are over powered and need be adjusted?

No I would say that DK, Warden, Sorc, and even Templar (now) have access to enough sustain passives, that Argonian is not need. The only situation I can think of where Dark Deal would be an issue is vAA slow run. Once you have more than 4 Axes, finding a window to Dark Deal in will be hard. You would need to Immovable Pot and take the Hits. And I'm not sure that would even work.

Maura_Neysa

Seems you do not know what you are writting about, just take a look there - racial passives from Elder Scrolls series:

part 2 - Daggerfall :
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races

part 3 - Morrowind :
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Races_(Morrowind)

etc etc
There were ALWAYS races more suitable to play certain roles in Elder Scrolls and min-maxers were always picking those races.

You represent a view of a min/maxer in the game (your words back that up), but I am not. I play whatever race/class combo I like (thus, for example, my stamina based templar is an orcish girl) that's why I already have 16 slots filled in.
BUT -> I do agree with previous posters who demand free race change token for every character owned if some drastic changes to racial passives will be made. People made their choices and commitments based of a state of the game at the certain point of time. Changing that without their consent could be deemed illegal -> Imagine yourself - you parked a car in a free spot in the morning - on your way back to your car in the evening you notice that somebody planted a sign "No Parking Zone" and your car has a clamp on one of its wheels and you are forced to pay a fine for parking in a restricted place. This is what happens to the game when its "developers" gimp/nerf a class or a race from a legal point of view. That's why I oppose any form of nerfing/gimping in any game I play. You may buff other, under powered classes/races but not the other way around.

What I would love to see is morphs. This would basically mean no change to Min/Maxing. But it would mean more choices that are like whether to go Altmer or Dark Elf for your Mag DPS. Altmer for just pure damage, but Dunmer for a little bit of nice utility along with really good damage.
It would also potentially open up a few more races to more. Like if Nord had the Defensive, or Offensive morph. or Bosmer/Khajiti Stealthy passive was Increased damage from stealth or just a Evasion like buff. Would open them back up to min/max builds, especially Bosmer who right now only min/max for a PvP StamBlade and even then have good competition from Khajiti.

Who knows though, all we know so far is that ZoS isn't looking at the First Passive, the Experience/AP/Gold gain one.

cbritomiranda

Bretons need some love. they are the least powerful race among the magic users